Dragonforce Adept D&D 3.5

[tedcahill2]

Since dragonfire adept got that shaft with PrCs I want to custom make one for a player of mine. It’s a 10 level class, available to him Level 6.

The main ability would be DragonForce. DragonForce is available once per day, and up to three times per day at higher levels. Similar to rage, it gives a constitution bonus, increasing the DC of their breath weapon, as well as providing bonuses to reflect saves due to heightened senses, and an additional bonus to the natural armor provided by scales.

He would also have the ability to “eat“ incoming energy attacks. This would effectively give him energy resistance, and he could expel the consumed energy on his next breath attack.

Finally I want his breath weapon and invocations to continue gaining levels through this procedure class.

How many levels of invocations and/or breath dice should I take a way to balance the DragonForce and breath eater abilities?

[heregoeshell]

While I really love the idea of adapting the energy eating and would love to add it in a homebrew (Fairy Tail anyone?), I am confused as to when/where ever Dragonfire Adepts got the shaft?

[daremetoidareyo]

While I really love the idea of adapting the energy eating and would love to add it in a homebrew (Fairy Tail anyone?), I am confused as to when/where ever Dragonfire Adepts got the shaft?

I agree with heregoeshell. Dragonfire adepts are solid and you don't roll anything but damage dice. They are the drag and drop class for newbies.

[Goaty14]

I agree with heregoeshell. Dragonfire adepts are solid and you don't roll anything but damage dice. They are the drag and drop class for newbies.

I agree with heregoeshell, daremetoidareyo, and the poster below me. If your player's DFA is having problems, let him staple metabreath feats to his breath weapon so he can nuke the battlefield every 4 or so rounds (that said, don't let him go overboard, since metabreath has no cap, players could wait 1,000+ rounds...). If he continues to have problems, throw his build on the forum for critique.

[tedcahill2]

They just have crappy PrC options.

[Zombulian]

I think to give a fair answer for your OP, we'd need more defined mechanics than the vague-ish descriptions of abilities you listed.

[umbergod]

They just have crappy PrC options.

How so? They qualify for arcane casting prestige classes, and any prestige that advances spellcasting advances invocations known and breath weapon damage, just like it does for warlocks.

[Thurbane]

They just have crappy PrC options.

How so? They qualify for arcane casting prestige classes, and any prestige that advances spellcasting advances invocations known and breath weapon damage, just like it does for warlocks.

Both of those statements are true.

Generally speaking, PrCing for a DFA is going to be a downgrade: I can't think of any PrCs off the top of my head that would be better than straight DFA.

Warlocks get slightly more PrCs that can actually be beneficial than the DFA does.

[Goaty14]

Generally speaking, PrCing for a DFA is going to be a downgrade: I can't think of any PrCs off the top of my head that would be better than straight DFA.

Sure, but the DFA doesn't really have a need to PrC -- it has no dead levels, and there's quite enough variety within its invocations. Compare to the sorcerer, which is heavily front loaded with its single class feature! Or, I dunno, the wizard might have 2 class features, or the cleric might have 3 (all of them at level 1, though).

[ComaVision]

I propose that the ability to absorb energy attacks be called Through the Fire and Flames.

[lylsyly]

Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Duskblade, Bard, Dragonfire Adept. What do they all have in common?

They are all perfectly playable in a straight 20 level build.

Did I miss any?

Dragonfire Adept, with a means of getting A breath weapon that recharges in rounds (hello Dragonborn) never needs to roll "to hit" with it's breath weapon. They need the proper feat selection and skill selection and invocation selection and that is basically it. If you want to make them stronger, my first inclination would be a feat that allows them to KNOW more invocations. Or dm fiat, whichever.

I once allowed a DFA to know a number of invocations equal to Class Level, of course sticking to learning higher category Invocations when the class calls for them. worked fine, gave the player more versatility/utility and slightly more powerful (maybe).

my 2 coppers, YMMV.

[Zaq]

How so? They qualify for arcane casting prestige classes, and any prestige that advances spellcasting advances invocations known and breath weapon damage, just like it does for warlocks.

The catch is that PrCs don’t advance breath effects, which are often nicer than (or at least equally important to) invocations. Since there are no PrCs designed specifically for the DFA (and few at all that don’t assume you’ve got spells rather than invocations), what they gain by PrCing is almost never a match for what they lose.

DFA 20 is entirely playable and workable, but with no good choices for PrCs, they can feel a little bit same-y after you’ve see a couple in action.

[Nifft]

The catch is that PrCs don’t advance breath effects, which are often nicer than (or at least equally important to) invocations. Since there are no PrCs designed specifically for the DFA (and few at all that don’t assume you’ve got spells rather than invocations), what they gain by PrCing is almost never a match for what they lose.

DFA 20 is entirely playable and workable, but with no good choices for PrCs, they can feel a little bit same-y after you’ve see a couple in action.

This is also my experience.

For all that, though, they are a solid class and I still like them in T3-compatible games.

[tyckspoon]

Sure, but the DFA doesn't really have a need to PrC -- it has no dead levels, and there's quite enough variety within its invocations. Compare to the sorcerer, which is heavily front loaded with its single class feature! Or, I dunno, the wizard might have 2 class features, or the cleric might have 3 (all of them at level 1, though).

Prestige options for specializing in an aspect of the class or specialty theurge effects would be nice, tho - consider how the Warlock gets the 'holy' variant PrC (it's kind of bad, but it's there) and a theurge class or two that let it do things like channel a spell into its Eldritch Blasts. A Dragonfire Adept prestige that focuses more on breath and manipulating elemental energies, for example, is a perfectly sensible concept to me .. and I can't think of any of the existing 'elemental caster' type prestige classes that have features that really work for a DFA. Maybe an Anima Mage style thing that turns spells or breaths/invocation usages into a resource for enhancing the other - spend spell slots to add extra DC/damage to breath or invocation uses, similar to how Abjurant Champion can burn them into attack buffs (experience shows turning an infinite resource like invocations into a buff for spells is a bad idea, so let's not suggest that..)

[Zombulian]

Prestige options for specializing in an aspect of the class or specialty theurge effects would be nice, tho - consider how the Warlock gets the 'holy' variant PrC (it's kind of bad, but it's there) and a theurge class or two that let it do things like channel a spell into its Eldritch Blasts. A Dragonfire Adept prestige that focuses more on breath and manipulating elemental energies, for example, is a perfectly sensible concept to me .. and I can't think of any of the existing 'elemental caster' type prestige classes that have features that really work for a DFA. Maybe an Anima Mage style thing that turns spells or breaths/invocation usages into a resource for enhancing the other - spend spell slots to add extra DC/damage to breath or invocation uses, similar to how Abjurant Champion can burn them into attack buffs (experience shows turning an infinite resource like invocations into a buff for spells is a bad idea, so let's not suggest that..)

Well you could have a PrC that works with the breath attack cooldown mechanic like so many metabreath feats do. Maybe as you progress through the class you get things like "You subtract 1 from the number of rounds you have to wait until you can use your breath attack again."

[Nifft]

Well you could have a PrC that works with the breath attack cooldown mechanic like so many metabreath feats do. Maybe as you progress through the class you get things like "You subtract 1 from the number of rounds you have to wait until you can use your breath attack again."

I like Metabreath feats on dragons because dragons have stuff to do on rounds when they can't breathe.

I don't feel like Dragonfire Adepts have as many non-breath options as true dragons.

[Zombulian]

I like Metabreath feats on dragons because dragons have stuff to do on rounds when they can't breathe.

I don't feel like Dragonfire Adepts have as many non-breath options as true dragons.

I agree. So the PrC may want to add different combat actions for the character. Since the OP mentions one called "Dragonforce" and gives it a rage-like ability, maybe the PrC will have a good hit die and full BAB. Maybe you get natural weapons as you progress or something.
Sort of making a PrC that focuses more on the savage aspect of dragons - claws and teeth and fire breath - at the expense of progressing invocations as well. Maybe you get more total invocations but they don't increase in power stage (or however you say Least -> Lesser -> etc.)?

[Rijan_Sai]

Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Duskblade, Bard, Dragonfire Adept. What do they all have in common?

They are all perfectly playable in a straight 20 level build.

Did I miss any?(1)

Dragonfire Adept, with a means of getting A breath weapon that recharges in rounds (hello Dragonborn)(2) never needs to roll "to hit" with it's breath weapon. They need the proper feat selection and skill selection and invocation selection and that is basically it. If you want to make them stronger, my first inclination would be a feat that allows them to KNOW more invocations.(3) Or dm fiat, whichever.

I once allowed a DFA to know a number of invocations equal to Class Level, of course sticking to learning higher category Invocations when the class calls for them. worked fine, gave the player more versatility/utility and slightly more powerful (maybe).

my 2 coppers, YMMV.

1) Warblade, Crusader, and Totemist, just off the top of my head.
2) The Power Surge feat from Dragon #313 should work as well.
3) Extra Invocation, IIRC, works for DfA.
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Reading through the rest of this topic, it sounds like losing breath effects could be it's own "balance" against the "eating elements" ability!

[GrayDeath]

Just take the Dragon Disciple, remove the casting, later Breath attack, and maybe also the Wings, reduce the Int Bonus, make it D10, and add your Energy Absorption and full Brerath Die and Invoication progression, and done.

You get: Attribute and AC Bonuses, medium BAB and keep getting better at your core theme. ;)

[tedcahill2]

I propose that the ability to absorb energy attacks be called Through the Fire and Flames.

I was going to call it Fire Eater, but since it's not fire specific I settled on Breath Eater.

[ComaVision]

I was going to call it Fire Eater, but since it's not fire specific I settled on Breath Eater.

I'm not familiar with that DragonForce song.

[Zombulian]

I was going to call it Fire Eater, but since it's not fire specific I settled on Breath Eater.

How about Breath Eater sounds too much like someone just blowing into your mouth :smalltongue: Maybe Qi Vampire for added spooky effect?