What's up with devils in the Monster Manual?

[AureusFulgens]

I have a bit of a flavor question/issue.

So I understand demons pretty well. They're expressions of the cosmic principle of destruction, so of course they're abhorrent. They take on every sort of horrifying form you can imagine, because they represent the will for reality to stop being a thing. Their entire modus operandi is "wreck everything as quickly as possible," without any attempts at subtlety (in general, anyway).

On the other hand, I don't understand devils. They represent tyranny and corruption, and their modus operandi is to use a combination of force and cunning manipulation to subjugate the universe, with an important side goal of coaxing as many mortals as possible into doing something evil of their own free will. And yet... they also look horrifying. Which makes no sense to me. How do you expect to manipulate an unsuspecting mortal when you look like a giant insect made of ice, or a two-legged lizard covered in spines, or a purple guy with a beard made of spiked tentacles? I feel like I'd expect them to be alluring and beautiful, maybe with one or two telltale features that you don't notice at first glance.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

[Belier]

The power they confer is what brings people to them?

[strangebloke]

Well, there's subjugation by subversion and corruption, but there's also subjugation by domination and overpowering.

Also, they aren't optimized for corruption. They embody corruption. Which is an ugly thing. Therefore, ugly.

Like, if I embody obesity that doesn't neccesarily mean I'm good at forcing people to eat food. Just means that I'm really fat.

[Sigreid]

I think at least the higher ranked ones are missing a disguise or alter self spell and maybe for some the ability to posses people. I mean literally step into someone's body, have a contest of wills and if you win set up house.

[AureusFulgens]

The power they confer is what brings people to them?

This kind of makes sense. And their appearance becomes kind of a non-deniability clause. There's no way you can pretend you made a mistake listening to this guy; you knew EXACTLY what you were getting yourself into.


Well, there's subjugation by subversion and corruption, but there's also subjugation by domination and overpowering.

Also, they aren't optimized for corruption. They embody corruption. Which is an ugly thing. Therefore, ugly.

Like, if I embody obesity that doesn't neccesarily mean I'm good at forcing people to eat food. Just means that I'm really fat.

I'm not sure I buy this one as much. Devils aren't just the embodiment of being corrupt; I always got the impression that they're also really good at corrupting other people. So... por qué no los dos?

The first part makes sense, though. Not all devils do their thing by whispering in somebody's ear; some are just like "I've got this thing I can give you, which I happen to know you really need. Want it?" Like Belier said. It also makes sense that they resemble what they do, the way that demons look like physical embodiments of destruction and death. But... I don't know, "giant ice bug" doesn't exactly look like corruption to me. Matter of taste?

[Pronounceable]

The devils are trying to teach you that it's the inner beauty that counts.

[Regitnui]

Two possible answers for you:

1. Not all of those who the devils would corrupt look like people.

2.An imp is obviously an imp, but it looks small and weak. How could it be a threat?

[Jaelommiss]

Consider the following situation:

You have a daughter.
You love your daughter and try to be a good parent for her.
You find out your daughter is dying of a horrible disease.
The doctor tells you that he cannot cure her.
A stranger tells you that he can save her, but he needs a favour first.

In this situation I suspect that the stranger's appearance would be so far from the forefront of your mind that it would have emigrated to a different prime material plane.



Another way to look at it: if we allow halflings in polite society, can we really bar any other monstrous races by appearance alone? Take a look at the 5e halfling art in the PHB and tell me that I'm wrong.

[Kane0]

Another way to look at it: if we allow halflings in polite society, can we really bar any other monstrous races by appearance alone? Take a look at the 5e halfling art in the PHB and tell me that I'm wrong.

The truth is often spoke in jest.

[JoeJ]

Consider the following situation:

You have a daughter.
You love your daughter and try to be a good parent for her.
You find out your daughter is dying of a horrible disease.
The doctor tells you that he cannot cure her.
A stranger tells you that he can save her, but he needs a favour first.

In this situation I suspect that the stranger's appearance would be so far from the forefront of your mind that it would have emigrated to a different prime material plane.

Except that if I run screaming from the horrible monster I'll never hear the offer. I agree that most of the devils need an ability to disguise themselves as someone/thing that most people would never suspect.

[Notafish]

Leaving aside the fact that most devils are confined to the nine hells (suggesting use of go-betweens for setting up the deals), imps are shapechangers and can turn invisible, while the Erinyes appear as attractive winged humanoids. Those seem like the best candidates for making deals in person.

The dealmaking is also only a part of the devils' scheme. They are making deals to collect souls to grow their ranks to eventually do {something evil}. Day-to-day, it looks like most of the devils' in the monster manual are engaged in either torturing the damned or acting as members of some kind of military structure (the monster manual describes some devils as "shock troops", others as "flying infantry"). It makes sense to me that many would still look monstrous.

[Unoriginal]

It's like saying "I don't see why the Nine Hells don't look like Heavens, way more people would be tempted by them isf they didn't look so horrible".

As others have said, Devils are personification of evil, and most of the ones in the MM are the "grunts with a day job in Hell" kind.

The ones who are higher on the hierarchy are charismatic enough to convince people despite their appearance, and smart enough to pick the moment where their target is willing to listen.

Furthermore, Devils use a lot of mortal agents, as it's difficult for them to reach the Material Plane. Anyone who treats with a Devil directly has either been tricked or is already pretty corrupted.

Also, and more to the point: corruption is not what Devils *are*, it's what they do. But so do Demons.


Devils are very good at corruption, but it's just a mean to an end for most. Asmodeus might think it's better to give people what they want and let them doom themselves, but he would be just as happy if a whole legion of already lawful evil hobgoblins pledged their souls to him.

[Darth Ultron]

I would note the 'monstrous' type devils are not the ones doing much manipulation. And if they do, they will hide or change forms to do so.

But, when it comes to 'weird' folks: they will accept the monster for power/money/glory or even just as it is cool.

The 'monster' devil's don't really go for the ''unsuspecting mortal'', they are going for the ''willing mortal''.

[Iados]

Consider the following situation:

You have a daughter.
You love your daughter and try to be a good parent for her.
You find out your daughter is dying of a horrible disease.
The doctor tells you that he cannot cure her.
A stranger tells you that he can save her, but he needs a favour first.

In this situation I suspect that the stranger's appearance would be so far from the forefront of your mind that it would have emigrated to a different prime material plane.



Another way to look at it: if we allow halflings in polite society, can we really bar any other monstrous races by appearance alone? Take a look at the 5e halfling art in the PHB and tell me that I'm wrong.

^This. Think about your greatest desire, be it for love, wealth, power, a holy vorpal polearm +17, or whatever have you. Now imagine that a cunning and powerful entity is aware of that desire, and that said entity waits for a moment in which your desire seems most unattainable. Your hopes for love are destroyed as your true love gets engaged to someone else. Your dreams of wealth evaporate after being fired from your job and losing your home. Your prayer for a holy vorpal polearm +17 is unfulfilled after the DM says there's no way he'd allow such an insanely overpowered item in his campaign. Just when all seems lost, that is when the entity makes his offer. And at that moment, when you're desperate for Karen to breakup with Brad, or you need to win Powerball, or it's critical for the DM to suffer a serious head injury that makes him think holy vorpal polearms are totally a thing, you're really not going to be too concerned about what your magical benefactor looks like.

And if you are still concerned about appearances, that's why a powerful enough denizen can either Alter Shape or Shapeshift into an attractive form. Or just send one of the Erinyes to do it.


P.S. To concur, there is nothing in the D&D mythos as horrific as a Halfling. If a character can encounter those bulbous-headed horrors without running away in terror, then a devil in its true form will seem downright pleasant in comparison.


https://img00.deviantart.net/3c2a/i/2014/230/4/5/halfling_bard_by_alexstoneart-d7vqlml.jpg
"Behold my true form...and despair!"

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

And yet... they also look horrifying. Which makes no sense to me. How do you expect to manipulate an unsuspecting mortal when you look like a giant insect made of ice, or a two-legged lizard covered in spines, or a purple guy with a beard made of spiked tentacles? I feel like I'd expect them to be alluring and beautiful, maybe with one or two telltale features that you don't notice at first glance.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

I am almost positive it's Aaron Allston in one of the disposable X-Wing novels who actually muses somewhat interestingly on a similar subject. His idea is that the corruption of otherwise good men and women is made more profound by their own knowledgeable, willing participation in their own downfall, and that knowledge is insured by surrounding them with symbols of their own moral decay; specifically, the names of the starships - Executor, Iron Fist, Corrupter, Agonizer. Any organization that names its flagship Corrupter is probably not one with a highly developed goodly moral code. Yet people still sign up with good intentions, telling themselves that forewarned is forearmed and they'll be able to work for change from the inside or whatever, and then five years later they're ordering an orbital strike on the Granola Planet.

A similar principle is true of devils. Of course they look horrible and terrifying; the lure is the power they can offer, and the bargain is much sweeter knowing that the victims went willingly and knowingly, deceiving themselves the whole way.

[Corpsecandle717]

I agree with the comments that they're twisted an ugly because they embody corruption, domination, and manipulation, and being good at those things I wouldn't expect most of their victims to see their true form until it's too late. Instead I would expect a lot of beings already in the devil's debt to operate as mouth pieces or tools to advance the devil's agenda. Set the right bait, for the right fish so to speak. Direct summoning aside, any devil that shows up in person and says "hiya I got this deal for you" is doing it wrong and isn't going to get very high on the food chain.

[Baptor]

Has no one seen the 80's film Legend?

"Sit and talk with me."

Pit fiend very nearly seduces a beautiful young lady.

I rest my case.

[Monster Manuel]

One interesting thing they did for "tempter" devils in 5e is that they made the Succubus/Incubus a fiend, but not specifically a devil or demon, letting them act as agents for either type.

While the Succubus represents a very specific sort of temptation, if you need an attractive, charismatic fiend to lure a mortal into a more general sort of corruption, the Succubus still can fill that role. Maybe they're acting as an agent of the mastermind Pit Fiend who is trapped in the nine hells but orchestrating larger plans.

[Envyus]

In the playtest Pit Fiends could freely take on Humanoid forms and other then Imps they are the ones that would be making the really tempting Deals with Kings and such to ensure their Kingdoms are damned. Most of the MM Devils are not the type that goes out trying to corrupt people. Barbed Devils are Guards, Bearded Devils are troops, Chain Devils are torturers, Bone Devils are task masters and police, etc..

[Jamesps]

Maybe in the grand scheme of things Prime Material mortals just aren't that important? Maybe devils are total hotties in planes of existence that actually matter.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'll admit that this is totally non canon, but the idea I use is that the shapes we see are the traditional "summoned to the material plane" forms and are part of the summoning contract. They're shells of matter designed to house the pure evil that is a devil, as well as frighten, injure, and over awe foolish mortals. The "can't be killed except on their home turf" clause is a contractual safety mechanism.

So if you meet one in the Hells, they may take that shape because it's traditional, and devils are believers in traditional (and deceit through lip service to traditional mores). But their true form is something else entirely.

Totally non canon, but it makes sense to me.

[Temperjoke]

One thing to consider, people who directly choose to work/negotiate with devils generally know what they're going to look like and it's not an issue for them. They're already corrupted or on the path to corruption. These people are often doing the bidding of devils to corrupt other people, often as part of their negotiation for power.

Another thing to consider, it's a common enough trope to not know the true form of the shadow you've been talking to, the real form of the voice in your head.

[Regitnui]

Remember that the devils are (by FR canon) locked into the Blood War with the demons of the Abyss. Not surprising that most of their forms are designed for combat.

Consider as well that devils have a hierarchy and can be switched (promoted/demoted) between forms. An ice devil isn't off tempting people because that form has a different job to do.

[Malifice]

p.s. To concur, there is nothing in the d&d mythos as horrific as a halfling. If a character can encounter those bulbous-headed horrors without running away in terror, then a devil in its true form will seem downright pleasant in comparison.


https://img00.deviantart.net/3c2a/i/2014/230/4/5/halfling_bard_by_alexstoneart-d7vqlml.jpg
"behold my true form...and despair!"

kill it with fire!

[Vingelot]

Consider the following situation:
Another way to look at it: if we allow halflings in polite society, can we really bar any other monstrous races by appearance alone? Take a look at the 5e halfling art in the PHB and tell me that I'm wrong.

Also, theyHalflings aren't optimized for corruptionpolite society. They embody corruption polite society. Which is an ugly thing. Therefore, ugly.

Like, if I embody obesity polite society that doesn't neccesarily mean I'm good at forcing people to eat food. Just means that I'm really fat.

[Asmotherion]

-Possesion is a thing.
-Alter Self, Disguise Self and other visual camouflages are a thing.
-Succubi/Incubi are a thing. Wile they may work for both, a single Succubus or Incubus, if left alone, could very well take control of a whole Kingdom, Religion, Make a Religion's followers forget their original rituals over time (they live indefinitelly), and replace them subtly with praisings to whatever Baator Lord they Serve, to rip the benefits into a promotion in the 9 Hells.
-Power hunger is a thing. When a king comes to bargain for conquest, a beggar for nobility, a Warlock for more Arcane knowlage and Power or an old human wizard for a 200 year extention to his lifespan, so he can complete his research, the Devil he will interact with has to somehow remind him A) Who's the boss, and B) That he knows full well that, on his own accound, he makes a Devil's Bargain. He is not tricked into it in any way, he makes it by his own free will, and accepts and concequences this will have on his soul (turning into that thing he sees, eventually).

A Devil will not try to trick you; He wants you to question weather or not what you are doing is right, and do the bad thing consiously, because the alternative seems less plesent. He wants you to accept that "only our way is the right way, so don't fight us, and join us". This is the reason why you get corrupted by interacting with them.

[JoeJ]

If it makes them more flavorful for your campaign, remember that adding the Change Shape feature to a monster does not affect its CR. Interestingly, that's also true of Invisibility and Etherealness, both of which can be thematic for fiends. If you add Possession, however, you'll need to recalculate the CR.