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View Full Version : Who says a sword is always meant to slay the dragon? [PrC]



Setra
2007-09-01, 05:53 PM
Just wanted to try making a Prestige Class, and the idea intruiged me.

Dragon Swordsman

Half Dragons often lead a lonely life. Hated by their dragonic parents for their weakness, and feared by their human relatives, they are often loners and try to make a living in the world on their own. As such they tend to learn their own trades and practices, and distant themselves from their dragonic parents to seek their own way in life. However, some Half Dragons wish to understand their dragon ancestry. Some become Dragonfire adepts, but other learn how to combine their innate dragon magic with devastating sword powers.


-----
Hit Die: d10

Prerequisites:

Race Must be at least half dragon or have the dragon subtype, must have a breath weapon
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Skills: Intimidate 6 ranks, Concentration 4 Ranks
Feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (any sword)

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2| Dragon's Sword

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3| Focus Strike 1/day

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3| Improved Critical

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4| Focus Strike 2/day, Breath Weapon 2/day

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4| Dragon's Sword +2, Wings, Flyby Attack

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+5| Focus Strike 3/day

7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+5| Dragon's Wrath

8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+6| Focus Strike 4/day

9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+6| Breath Weapon 3/day

10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+7| Dragon's Sword +3, Focus Strike 5/day, Mastery of Dragon [/table]

Class skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentrate (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Sense Motive (Wis)

Skill Points per level: 2+ Int

Profiencies: You gain no Weapon or Armor profiencies by taking this class.


-----
Abilities

Dragon's Sword: As a Dragon Swordsman, you are focused in the way of the sword, thus you gain a +1 bonus (To attack and damage) as long as you wield a sword.

Focus Strike: As a Dragon, you have incredible focus and power, thus starting at 2, you may make an attack once per day that completely bypasses armor, by focusing on its weak points. Thus your melee roll is a touch attack. You may use this ability once per day more every even level.

Improved Critical: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.

Breath Weapon: As a half-dragon, you have a breath attack, however with the focused training of a Dragon Swordsman, you may learn to use it multiple times a day. Twice at fourth level, and thrice at ninth, however you may only use it once every 1d4 rounds.

Wings: If you do not already have wings capable of flight, you grow them over the course of 4d6 hours upon gaining this level.

The flight speed of your wings is twice your base movement speed and has clumsy maneuverability.

Flyby attack: Upon gaining wings, you gain this feat; so that when flying, you can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. You cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Dragon's Wrath: Upon reaching 7th level, you may make a special attack with your sword.

By spending a move action, you channel your breath weapon into your sword, using up one breath weapon use.
The next successful strike you deal with the sword deals extra damage equal to your breath weapon damage.

This ability can be used in conjuction with Focus Strike.

Mastery of Dragon: Upon gaining 10th level, you have mastered your dragon self. In doing so, your natural armor increases by one, your claw and bite damage increase by one die size, your flight speed is increased by 20ft, and you gain more power over your breath weapon.

You now add half your dragon swordsman level to your breath weapon's DC, and to the number of damage dice you roll.


-----

Ex-Dragon Swordsmen: Upon attacking a dragon, you instantly lose all your Dragon Swordsman abilities, except skills, feats, hit dice, base attack bonus, and saves.

The only way to completely regain these abilities is by completely atoning for your actions, apologizing to at least one individual (the dragon you attacked, if (s)he is still alive), and casting an atonement, wish, or miracle spell.

Any thoughts?

Freshmeat
2007-09-01, 06:05 PM
Seems a bit too powerful too me.
Full BAB, good saves all around and fantastic abilities. Requirements are pretty low too, though I suggest you keep them and simply rebalance (in this case, tone down) the rest.

Setra
2007-09-01, 06:23 PM
Well I want to keep the full BaB, because it's meant to be a Melee-ish class.

But toning down the saves shouldn't be a problem.

Any advice on toning down the abilities?

Abjurer
2007-09-01, 07:14 PM
What's up with the dragon's sword thing?
It says it gives a +1 with a sword. Is that a +1 attack or +1 damage? Or both? Also, weapon focus gives a +1 to attack, and specialization gives +2 damage, so those shouldn't be put together unless dragon's sword gives +1 to both.
Also, it gives you extra attacks? As in, it's an increase in BAB?
The class already has perfect BAB. So with that, a member of the class can have a higher BAB than a fighter. If it's actually an increase in BAB, instead of a bonus to attack or damage (or both), you should make it so that the character's BAB can never be higher than it's hit dice.

As it is, it's way too powerful.

(Also, if it's only available to half-dragons, it should be called "Half-Dragon Swordsman")

Abjurer
2007-09-01, 07:31 PM
Actually, you could say that it's a 3/4 BAB, but make the dragon's sword thing an actual increase in BAB. Then, it's more or less perfect base attack bonus, but you could set some kind of excommunicating act, like killing a dragon, that causes the dragon swordsman to loose the dragon's sword ability, dropping his BAB to that of a cleric.

So Klaurthrilliomeraugh'ishyishy, half-white dragon/human fighter 5/cleric 2/dragon swordsman 5 has a BAB of 9, plus two for his dragon's sword special ability, for a total of 11, which is only one less than that of a fighter his level. But if he sees the copper dragon who killed his parents, and exacts vengeance in a wave of unthinking fury, his BAB suddenly drops back to 9 (and his wings probably fall off, too), so he's no more than a cleric without spells.

I think that would be good.

You also need hit dice (I recommend a d8), weapon and armor proficiencies (I recommend none, since taking this class, the character will already be proficient with their chosen weapon, and probably armor as well), and skill points (I recommend (2+int mod), because you already said this character was a fighting-oriented character.) And you'll need to make a list of skills available to the character (probably similar to the fighter list, maybe plus bluff and/or diplomacy).

martyboy74
2007-09-01, 07:47 PM
Make the racial requirement: At least half-dragon.
What's the fly speed and maneuverability of the wings?

Mewtarthio
2007-09-01, 07:53 PM
Make the racial requirement: At least half-dragon.

How about "Must have the Dragon type and a breath weaon"?

Setra
2007-09-02, 05:46 AM
Actually, you could say that it's a 3/4 BAB, but make the dragon's sword thing an actual increase in BAB. Then, it's more or less perfect base attack bonus, but you could set some kind of excommunicating act, like killing a dragon, that causes the dragon swordsman to loose the dragon's sword ability, dropping his BAB to that of a cleric.That sounds like a pretty good idea.


You also need hit dice (I recommend a d8), weapon and armor proficiencies (I recommend none, since taking this class, the character will already be proficient with their chosen weapon, and probably armor as well), and skill points (I recommend (2+int mod), because you already said this character was a fighting-oriented character.) And you'll need to make a list of skills available to the character (probably similar to the fighter list, maybe plus bluff and/or diplomacy).
Oh, I was going to give him d8, I just forgot to put that in there :\. I'll work on adding skills and whatnot now.

Edit: I was considering adding a Concentration check to Focus Strike, thoughts?

RTGoodman
2007-09-02, 10:26 AM
I like the idea. Just a few things though.

First, it's a melee class, and a half-dragon already has to deal with a +3 LA (without buy-off rules and whatnot), so I would consider giving a d10 (or maybe d12) hit die. That should keep them around longer in a fight.

Second, I know people have been discussing the whole BAB and Dragon's Sword thing here for a while, but it just seems to me that an ability that actually increases your BAB under a certain condition (e.g., using a certain weapon) has no precedent in any other case (except for some spells, I think,a and they might be worded differently). Which it's okay to make something that has no precedents, but why not just go with something easier - as in, let them have a full BAB, and the Dragon's Sword gives them a flat +X bonus on attacks and damage rolls with the sword they've chosen for Weapon Focus. That doesn't sound too overpowering to me (especially when in most cases they just have WF, WSp, and this ability, giving +4 attack and +5 damage at 10th class level).

About the wings - I don't like the flavor you've got going there (meditating to get wings?), and I think it might make more sense just to say "At 5th level, your wings have strengthened enough to allow flight. You gain a fly speed equal to twice your base land speed with X (probably Average) maneuverability." Don't worry about losing your wings - by that time, (at least 13th level), you should have a Cleric able to cast Regenerate (or that will be in a level or so).

Also, you need a provision for what to do with characters taking the PrC that already have functional wings (i.e., Large or larger creatures with the Half-Dragon template, etc.). Do they get a better fly speed? Do they not gain anything?

Finally, I suggest leaving the Prerequisites as requiring a character to be a half-dragon to qualify. Without this, you could have things that get kinda screwy when you add in other things with the Dragon type, breath weapons, etc. (Dragonwraught kobolds, dragonborns, that warlock-like class from Dragon Magic that I don't know anything about, etc.).

martyboy74
2007-09-02, 10:36 AM
Finally, I suggest leaving the Prerequisites as requiring a character to be a half-dragon to qualify. Without this, you could have things that get kinda screwy when you add in other things with the Dragon type, breath weapons, etc. (Dragonwraught kobolds, dragonborns, that warlock-like class from Dragon Magic that I don't know anything about, etc.).

What if a dragon wants to take levels in this class? Are they excluded for being too draconic?

RTGoodman
2007-09-02, 11:32 AM
What if a dragon wants to take levels in this class? Are they excluded for being too draconic?

Well, I saw the name was "Half-Dragon Swordsman," so I assumed that it was basically just for half-dragons.

I guess you could say what one of the other posters said, and make the requirement "At least half-dragon." Or just allow anyone with a breath weapon and the Dragon type. Now that I look over the other things that meet those qualifications, none of them would really be overpowered (and I doubt the Dragonfire Adept or whatever it's called would even want this PrC, since it doesn't advance any of it's abilities).

[Or you could leave it at requiring that they be half-dragon and just say that a true dragon is a half-dragon. And his other half is also dragon. :smallbiggrin: ]

Setra
2007-09-02, 12:00 PM
About the wings - I don't like the flavor you've got going there (meditating to get wings?), and I think it might make more sense just to say "At 5th level, your wings have strengthened enough to allow flight. You gain a fly speed equal to twice your base land speed with X (probably Average) maneuverability." Don't worry about losing your wings - by that time, (at least 13th level), you should have a Cleric able to cast Regenerate (or that will be in a level or so).

Also, you need a provision for what to do with characters taking the PrC that already have functional wings (i.e., Large or larger creatures with the Half-Dragon template, etc.). Do they get a better fly speed? Do they not gain anything? I'll change the flavor a bit, it did sound a bit silly. However I didn't want them to suddenly sprout out of nowhere, so I figured since part of the class was about focus..

Any creature that already has wings does not gain anything from this class.

I've made some changes.

I'm also considering giving them more skill points.

Also, any thoughts on my above-mentioned giving Focus Strike a concentration check?

EvilElitest
2007-09-02, 01:02 PM
I like the idea, but we could use some fluff, the crunch is really cool
from,
EE

Setra
2007-09-02, 02:13 PM
I like the idea, but we could use some fluff, the crunch is really cool
from,
EE
I've been trying to think of some good fluff, every time however, that I start thinking of something decent I think of something better then get distracted and so on.

I'll try harder to think of some.

EvilElitest
2007-09-02, 06:58 PM
I've been trying to think of some good fluff, every time however, that I start thinking of something decent I think of something better then get distracted and so on.

I'll try harder to think of some.

I could try if you wished
from,
EE

Setra
2007-09-02, 07:07 PM
I could try if you wished
from,
EEGo right ahead.

Abjurer
2007-09-03, 12:43 PM
Dragon Swordsman

The Dragon Swordsman is one of draconic blood who has strayed from the more primal draconic fighting styles and sought training with the sword in place of claws and teeth. They spend their lives seeking perfection in their own fighting technique, and often treasure as their draconic heritage comes more and more into play.


-----
Hit Die: d10

Prerequisites:

Race Must be at least half dragon or have the dragon subtype, must have a breath weapon
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Skills: Intimidate 6 ranks, Concentration 4 Ranks
Feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (any sword)

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2| Dragon's Sword

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3| Focus Strike 1/day

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3| Bonus Feat

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4| Focus Strike 2/day, Breath Weapon 2/day

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4| Dragon's Sword +2, Wings, Flyby Attack

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+5| Focus Strike 3/day

7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+5| Dragon's Wrath

8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+6| Focus Strike 4/day

9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+6| Breath Weapon 3/day

10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+7| Dragon's Sword +3, Focus Strike 5/day, Mastery of Dragon [/table]

Class skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentrate (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Sense Motive (Wis)

Skill Points per level: 2+ Int

Profiencies: You gain no Weapon or Armor profiencies by taking this class.


-----
Abilities

Dragon's Sword: As a Dragon Swordsman, you are focused in the way of the sword, thus you gain a +1 bonus (To attack and damage) as long as you wield a sword.

Focus Strike: As a Dragon, you have incredible focus and power, thus starting at 2, you may make an attack once per day that completely bypasses armor, by focusing on its weak points. Thus your melee roll is a touch attack. You may use this ability once per day more every even level.

Breath Weapon: As a half-dragon, you have a breath attack, however with the focused training of a Dragon Swordsman, you may learn to use it multiple times a day. Twice at fourth level, and thrice at ninth.

Wings: If you do not already have wings capable of flight, you grow them over the course of 4d6 hours upon gaining this level.

The flight speed of your wings is twice your base movement speed and has clumsy maneuverability.

Flyby attack: Upon gaining wings, you gain this feat; so that when flying, you can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. You cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Dragon's Wrath: Upon reaching 7th level, you may make a special attack with your sword.

By spending a move action, you channel your breath weapon into your sword, using up one breath weapon use.
The next successful strike you deal with the sword deals extra damage equal to your breath weapon damage.

This ability can be used in conjuction with Focus Strike.

Mastery of Dragon: Upon gaining 10th level, you have mastered your dragon self. In doing so, your natural armor increases by one, your claw and bite damage increase by one die size, your flight speed is increased by 20ft, and you gain more power over your breath weapon.

You now add half your dragon swordsman level to your breath weapon's DC, and to the number of damage dice you roll.


-----

Ex-Dragon Swordsmen: Upon attacking a dragon, you instantly lose all your Dragon Swordsman abilities, except skills, feats, hit dice, base attack bonus, and saves.

The only way to completely regain these abilities is by completely atoning for your actions, apologizing to at least one individual (the dragon you attacked, if (s)he is still alive), and casting an atonement, wish, or miracle spell.

Anxe
2007-09-03, 01:13 PM
Problems with it: Breath weapon should be every 1d4 rounds.
And why would it increase claw and bit damage if it focuses on swords? Give it improved critical or some feat like that for free instead. Maybe even frightful presence.
Final problem is what is the reason for a half-dragon fighter to not take this class?

Setra
2007-09-03, 03:55 PM
Problems with it: Breath weapon should be every 1d4 rounds.A half-dragon can use a breath weapon once a day, so I didn't see the need to make it more than three times a day.

And why would it increase claw and bit damage if it focuses on swords? Give it improved critical or some feat like that for free instead. Maybe even frightful presence.Well even a swordsman can be disarmed, and it seemed like a good idea at the time. Though improved critical is probably a good idea.

Final problem is what is the reason for a half-dragon fighter to not take this class?I don't understand this question. The class was practically designed for a half-dragon Fighter.

*snip*Mind if I just copy that?

It's pretty much a refined version of what I was trying to make =p

Anxe
2007-09-03, 04:58 PM
What I meant by the 1d4 rounds thing is the way the class currently works your Dragon can breath 3 times in a row which a normal dragon can't do. What I suggest is that it can still breath 3 times a day, but with a break in between just like other dragons.

And if there isn't a reason for a Half-Dragon fighter to not take this class, then it's probably overpowered. Just dipping it and he gets +1 to attack and damage.

martyboy74
2007-09-03, 05:06 PM
Do you have to attack a full dragon to lose your abilities, or can you also lose them from attacking another half-dragon? What about a member of another dragon themed class, like Dragon Disciple or Dragon Shaman?

EvilElitest
2007-09-03, 05:33 PM
I've been trying to think of some good fluff, every time however, that I start thinking of something decent I think of something better then get distracted and so on.

I'll try harder to think of some.

Half Dragons often lead a lonely life. Hated by their dragonic parents for their weakness, and feared by their human relatives, they are often loners and try to make a living in the world on their own. As such they tend to learn their own trades and practices, and distant themselves from their dragonic parents to seek their own way in life. However, some Half Dragons wish to understand their dragon ancestry. Some become Dragonfire adepts, but other learn how to combine their innate dragon magic with devastating sword powers.
from,
EE

Setra
2007-09-03, 07:37 PM
What I meant by the 1d4 rounds thing is the way the class currently works your Dragon can breath 3 times in a row which a normal dragon can't do. What I suggest is that it can still breath 3 times a day, but with a break in between just like other dragons. Ahh, I see now. Yeah that's probably a good idea.


And if there isn't a reason for a Half-Dragon fighter to not take this class, then it's probably overpowered. Just dipping it and he gets +1 to attack and damage.
Not like Fighters are that strong anyways.

Do you have to attack a full dragon to lose your abilities, or can you also lose them from attacking another half-dragon? What about a member of another dragon themed class, like Dragon Disciple or Dragon Shaman?If I were to specify, I suppose anyone who is similar to them, and by that I mean, and I quote "at least half dragon or have the dragon subtype"

Half Dragons often lead a lonely life. Hated by their dragonic parents for their weakness, and feared by their human relatives, they are often loners and try to make a living in the world on their own. As such they tend to learn their own trades and practices, and distant themselves from their dragonic parents to seek their own way in life. However, some Half Dragons wish to understand their dragon ancestry. Some become Dragonfire adepts, but other learn how to combine their innate dragon magic with devastating sword powers.
from,
EE
Hey that sounds pretty good, better than what I came up with anyways.

EvilElitest
2007-09-04, 02:51 PM
Hey that sounds pretty good, better than what I came up with anyways.
Thank you very much
from,
Ee

Abjurer
2007-09-04, 06:56 PM
Yeah, you can copy it. Why else would I have posted it?