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Neftren
2007-09-01, 06:33 PM
So, I was thinking of starting a new character for use with school friends...my first character was an archery type Ranger/Arcane Archer...so I thought I might try the other end...I'm looking at Wikipedia for classes with cool names and I come across the Swordsage and the Bladesinger.

So, I was thinking of going 15 levels of Swordsage and 5 levels of Wizard or something and then taking the Bladesinger prestige class... or maybe the Duelist class to complement my armor free state with the Wizard...

What do you guys think? Oh and what's the attack die on the Swordsage? I need at least a d10 to qualify for Duelist or Bladesinger (Maybe, I don't have the appropriate book for that).

Damionte
2007-09-01, 06:43 PM
DUDE !... Ahh..... What?

You need to sit down and have some quality time with the rule books. You're questions are soo all over the place I don't even know where to start pointing you straight other than to advise you to read the books.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-01, 07:08 PM
Perhaps you are taking the wrong approach to this (and I hate saying YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG). It sounds like you're just throwing out names of classes based on titles. You will probably have more fun with a character by looking at its abilities first. After all, as long as your wizard can hold a sword in his hands and croak out a couple lines of music you can call him a Bladesinger.

The three classes you mention are all powerful in their own fields (actually, the Bladesinger isn't powerful at all, but it is a fun class to play with).

First, though, you should probably know that your hit die have nothing to do with Prestige Class qualification. All that matter are Skills, Feats and Base Attack Bonuses. You're fine no matter what you use.

Second, Choose which class you like the most.
The Swordsages is a Wisdom-based melee class characterized by its exaggerated and sometimes nearly anime or wuxia-based abilities. It combines a bit of over-the-top-flying-through-the-air-shooting-fireballs with actually being one of the best fighter classes.

I assume you know wizard.

Bladesingers are relatively weak Finesse-based Fighter/Wizards with an Elf Racial requirement. If you want to play one, Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 5/Bladesinger 10 is probably your best bet, taking the Daring Outlaw Feat at sixth level.

If you want to multiclass a Martial Adept (Classes like the Swordsage) with a wizard, some mix of Warblade/Wizard/Aburant Champion is probably your best bet. I don't have Tome of Battle (the book where Warblades and Swordsages can be found) and so I'm not certain how well they multiclass or what prestige classes aid them in doing so.

Multiclassing between Fighter-types and Wizard-types usually does best when it can take the most levels of its casting class and use spells to make up for combat deficiencies. Abjurant Champion is nearly always an incredibly useful prestige class in such builds. It has d10 hit points, full base attack and full spellcasting progression with relatively simple prerequisites.

Also, try to find classes capitalizing on similar ability scores. Swashbucklers, Assassins and Bladesingers all rely on Dexterity and Intelligence, which is why I suggested combining the three of them. Swordsages and Wizards on the other hand rely on Strength, Wisdom, Intelligence, Constitution and Dexterity, making it quite difficult to afford raising your stats properly while leveling up and acquiring wealth.

Dhavaer
2007-09-01, 07:14 PM
If you want to multiclass a Martial Adept (Classes like the Swordsage) with a wizard, some mix of Warblade/Wizard/Aburant Champion is probably your best bet. I don't have Tome of Battle (the book where Warblades and Swordsages can be found) and so I'm not certain how well they multiclass or what prestige classes aid them in doing so.

Jade Phoenix Mage is the Sublime Way/Arcane casting PrC from Tome of Battle. It isn't really that great (full BAB and d6 hit die?) but the class abilities are excellent (particularly the explosion one, and the stance you get at second level). Crusader/Bard or Crusader/Sorcerer (or some other Charisma based spellcaster, like Dread Necromancer) are good ways to qualify.

Neftren
2007-09-01, 07:39 PM
There is an advantage to Wizard progression to a Bladesinger because wizards are the favored class of elves... so no multiclass penalty off the Wizard. The Swordsage is thrown in for combat styles which I believe are able to be used in conjunction with the Bladesinger... I figured I could go Diamond Mind style who's "Exemplar Weapon" is a rapier... then use the Bladesinger and further capitalize on the rapier from the Bladesong abilities etc... Please note I don't own the Tome of Battle book... I plan to go buy it whenever I can but until then, I have to muddle along >.>

Besides, the whole point of DnD is to have fun and become whatever you want (within reason) so... except for Bladesinger I need a d10 hit die to qualify for the class...

Can Wizard spells be used in conjunction with the weapon skills from the Bladesinger? Say... can I cast a magic missile as my free action spell?

CockroachTeaParty
2007-09-01, 07:43 PM
Also, if you're going to multiclass with a martial adept class, it's often not a bad idea to take 2 levels of the non-TOB class, then take a level of the martial adept. Your initiator level is equal to your levels in a martial adept class plus 1/2 your levels in other classes, so multiclassing in increments will give you access to better maneuvers as you go on, instead of being stuck with whatever maneuvers you had before you started multiclassing.

Dhavaer
2007-09-01, 07:45 PM
Do you have Complete Warrior, Neftren? I can't tell for sure from your posts.

de-trick
2007-09-01, 07:56 PM
IF you want to play a arcane warrior I would suggest, playing a duskblade, warmage, battle sorcerer(could be a couple others to)

Neftren
2007-09-01, 08:01 PM
Also, if you're going to multiclass with a martial adept class, it's often not a bad idea to take 2 levels of the non-TOB class, then take a level of the martial adept. Your initiator level is equal to your levels in a martial adept class plus 1/2 your levels in other classes, so multiclassing in increments will give you access to better maneuvers as you go on, instead of being stuck with whatever maneuvers you had before you started multiclassing.

Hmm, good idea... but I was thinking of just 5 consecutive levels of Wizard so that I don't take any Multiclass XP penalty and then following with 10-15 levels of Swordsage ( I still need to up my die to a d10 from a d8) so that means finding a viable class.

and no I don't have Complete Warrior, I'm going on a Bookstore Excursion for extra DnD books tomorrow I think...

I need to up my hit die to a d10 somehow... are there any decent melee classes that would complement a Wizard/Swordsage > Bladesinger combo that ups my die to a d10? I'm not wearing armor so Fighter or Barbarian is a waste in my opinion... also goes against my idea of Skill > Power...

de-trick
2007-09-01, 08:04 PM
you get a D8 with duskblade, spellcasting ability full base attack,and armored mage

Dhavaer
2007-09-01, 08:05 PM
Where are you getting the idea that you need a d10 hit die? I've reread the pre-requisites, and bladesinger has no hit die or hit point requirement.

Neftren
2007-09-01, 08:06 PM
Hmm, good idea... but I was thinking of just 5 consecutive levels of Wizard so that I don't take any Multiclass XP penalty and then following with 10-15 levels of Swordsage ( I still need to up my die to a d10 from a d8) so that means finding a viable class.

and no I don't have Complete Warrior, I'm going on a Bookstore Excursion for extra DnD books tomorrow I think...

I need to up my hit die to a d10 somehow... are there any decent melee classes that would complement a Wizard/Swordsage > Bladesinger combo that ups my die to a d10? I'm not wearing armor so Fighter or Barbarian is a waste in my opinion... also goes against my idea of Skill > Power...

Since I still want people to read the ABOVE.

And no, I've explained that I'm interested in an exotic combo... Duskblade is an excellent class but I'm really not interested in it. Like I said, DnD is for roleplaying what YOU (Or in this case what I) want to be.

Neftren
2007-09-01, 08:08 PM
Where are you getting the idea that you need a d10 hit die? I've reread the pre-requisites, and bladesinger has no hit die or hit point requirement.

I think I did read somewhere it has a d10 requirement... I'll try and find it again. But if it doesn't... Yay for me!

Oh, and if anyone has a booklist suggestion for me to play:

Wizard Lvl 5
Swordsage Lvl 15

Prestige Class > Bladesinger

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-01, 08:18 PM
Okay. From your initial post I wasn't certain you had any familiarity with the classes beyond their titles. You can indeed use magic missile as a swift action if you feel like doing so.

No classes I know of need any specific hit dice to qualify and Bladesinger is one of my favorite classes to play with.

One of the few useful abilities of the Bladesinger class is its extra attack gained at 10th level, which you lose when making standard action Swordsage strikes...


And no, I've explained that I'm interested in an exotic combo... Duskblade is an excellent class but I'm really not interested in it. Like I said, DnD is for roleplaying what YOU (Or in this case what I) want to be. You asked what we think and we're telling you: It is suboptimal on multiple levels. If you want to play this character regardless, great. We've just been telling you what we thought of your build.


Hmm, good idea... but I was thinking of just 5 consecutive levels of Wizard so that I don't take any Multiclass XP penalty and then following with 10-15 levels of Swordsage Multiclass penalties shouldn't be an issue as both Elves and Half-Elves have Wizard as a favored class

Draz74
2007-09-01, 08:23 PM
There is an advantage to Wizard progression to a Bladesinger because wizards are the favored class of elves... so no multiclass penalty off the Wizard.

True, but you can normally get around without multiclass penalties anyway. For example, the Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 5/Bladesinger 10 build that was recommended can avoid all multiclassing penalties, if he is just careful about the order that he takes his rogue and swashbuckler levels. (Prestige Classes never cause multiclassing penalties.)


The Swordsage is thrown in for combat styles which I believe are able to be used in conjunction with the Bladesinger...

Also true, and I'd actually be interested to see how well a Swordsage/Bladesinger can turn out, because Swordsages are pretty powerful melee fighters. (But I'm pretty sure the answer is "not very well, unless almost all of your ability scores are very high." Swordsage needs wisdom and constitution and dexterity. Bladesinger needs intelligence and dexterity.)

You could at least switch to Warblade instead of Swordsage. Warblades are great melee fighters too, and they get a lot more use out of Intelligence than Swordsages do. Oh, and they still have access to Diamond Mind and its rapier-favoritism. Warblade 5 / Wizard 2 or something like that (I'll get to specifics later) might be a great entry into Bladesinger.

None of these builds are probably going to be super powerful, because Tome of Battle characters do their best when they keep taking mostly Tome of Battle-related levels to make their maneuvers more powerful. But if you're not playing a super-optimized game, you won't have to worry about this really.


except for Bladesinger I need a d10 hit die to qualify for the class...

No you don't. Prestige Classes never require a certain hit die to enter them. The actual requirements to enter Bladesinger can be found here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/prestige2.pl?Bladesinger).

Perhaps you just looked at the Prestige Class's description, near the Prerequisites section, and saw the PrC's own Hit Die listed? No, that can't be it either, because Bladesinger doesn't get a d10 Hit Die. It gets d8.

... anyway, if you are still worried about the Hit Die question, Swordsages get a d8 Hit Die, and Warblades get a d12 Hit Die (the best!).


Can Wizard spells be used in conjunction with the weapon skills from the Bladesinger? Say... can I cast a magic missile as my free action spell?

I don't know what you mean by "my free action spell," because characters don't normally get "a free action spell." But Bladesingers actually do get something kind of like that. At Level 4, a Bladesinger can cast a (Wizard) spell of Level 2 or lower as a swift action when he makes a full attack. At Level 8, this spell can now be 3rd or 4th level. It's the most powerful ability of a medium-power (but very fun) class.

So if you want to make a Tome of Battle-based Bladesinger, I highly encourage it, even if it's not the most powerful build around. If you want to minimize multiclassing, you will have to wait until Level 9 before you have enough feats to enter Bladesinger. If you are waiting that long anyway to get into the class, then almost any combination of Wizard and Warblade levels will allow you to qualify.

If you are willing to multiclass (without penalties) to get into Bladesinger sooner, then you can do the following:

Level 1: Rogue (to get those pesky Perform ranks); Feat = Weapon Focus
Level 2: Fighter (for Bonus Feat = Combat Expertise)
Level 3: Warblade (which can already act like a Level 2 Warblade when he picks his maneuvers); Feat = Dodge
Level 4: Wizard
Level 5: Wizard
Level 6: Warblade (sort of Level 4 for maneuvers); Feat = Combat Casting

Now you can have all the prerequisites for Bladesinger except that you need 1 more point of BAB. So Level 7 needs to give you a +1 BAB increase (i.e. not Wizard), and it unfortunately can't be a Warblade level, because that would give you a multiclassing penalty. Either another level of Fighter or another level of Rouge would work. I recommend Rogue.

At Level 8, you can now start taking levels of Bladesinger.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-01, 08:30 PM
No you don't. Prestige Classes never require a certain hit die to enter them. The actual requirements to enter Bladesinger can be found here.
Take note that both references to the Longsword should read: "Longsword or Rapier"

Neftren
2007-09-01, 08:32 PM
Yes, we have established I don't actually own the ToB book so I have no exact stats on the Swordsage or Bladesinger.

No, I don't want a super powerful class because that just detracts from the fun of it all.

Yes, my mistake has now been rectified about the d10, thanks.

Yes, about the "magic missile" I was referring to my swift action bladesinger ability...

As for this being a suboptimal build, I don't mind, all classes if played well can be good.

May I remind you guys that I want to be a dashing skillful type of swordsman... not as Belkar mentions in "On the Origin of PCs", that any guy with a bastard sword could do more than the monk with 3 attacks per round.

Rogue might qualify into my acceptable class range for multiclassing, so would assassin but remember I am 80% melee and I most likely WON'T be wearing armor. Swashbuckler is kinda straying away from Uber swordsman to a more dueling type Jack Sparrow ish pirate...

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-01, 08:36 PM
I think you're putting too much importance in class names. Swashbuckler could be called "Uber Swordsman" and its abilities would make just as much sense. Adding Intelligence to damage is their primary ability; nothing in the class even mentions the sort of seafaring piracy you seem to see in the class.

Draz74
2007-09-01, 08:40 PM
Sorry, I got simu-ninja'ed a lot while writing my post.


Yes, we have established I don't actually own the ToB book so I have no exact stats on the Swordsage or Bladesinger.

Bladesinger isn't from Tome of Battle, though.


No, I don't want a super powerful class because that just detracts from the fun of it all.

Depends on the game. But yes, you are correct about most games. :smallwink:


Yes, my mistake has now been rectified about the d10, thanks.

It hadn't been when I started writing my post. :smallamused:


May I remind you guys that I want to be a dashing skillful type of swordsman... not as Belkar mentions in "On the Origin of PCs", that any guy with a bastard sword could do more than the monk with 3 attacks per round.

Rogue might qualify into my acceptable class range for multiclassing, so would assassin but remember I am 80% melee and I most likely WON'T be wearing armor. Swashbuckler is kinda straying away from Uber swordsman to a more dueling type Jack Sparrow ish pirate...

Great ... Well, I guess I was assuming you would wear light armor. One of the big features Bladesingers get is to cast spells in light armor with no spell failure chance. And all of the classes involved in this discussion except Wizard -- even the Swordsage -- grant light armor proficiency.

Oh, in case you didn't know, another Bladesinger ability is to get your Intelligence bonus to your AC. And unlike the similar ability of the Duelist PrC, this works even when you wear light armor. So you could still get a lot of that "unarmored quick, precise warrior" flavor, even if you wear light armor.

But yeah, my top recommendation would be to take Warblade instead of Swordsage. It fits together with Bladesinger so much better.

Neftren
2007-09-01, 08:44 PM
About the Swashbuckler: This is a Roleplaying Game... Swashbuckler sounds like it may lead to Dread Pirate etc... get the idea? Names are a little more important for me than when I was doing my Ranger character.

Yeah I know Bladesinger isn't from ToB. But it just fit into the sentence! :smallamused:

Two Letters about the Warblade: NO. Besides, I'd like to see what happens with this current combo...

As for the Bladesinger ability... does it work with wizard spells though? Wizards are not proficient in Light Armor and basically will fail at casting while wearing it but does the Bladesinger ability supercede that and allow me to cast even with armor?

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-01, 08:46 PM
About the Swashbuckler: This is a Roleplaying Game... Swashbuckler sounds like it may lead to Dread Pirate etc... get the idea? Names are a little more important for me than when I was doing my Ranger character.

Yes. This is a roleplaying game, meaning you play the role and that you define the character, not your character sheet.


As for the Bladesinger ability... does it work with wizard spells though? Wizards are not proficient in Light Armor and basically will fail at casting while wearing it but does the Bladesinger ability supercede that and allow me to cast even with armor?
That is its 6th level ability.

TheElfLord
2007-09-01, 08:52 PM
I just have to ask what level of campaign you are going to be playing if you don't plan on entering your first prestige class until 20th level.

Neftren
2007-09-01, 08:52 PM
Um... clarification:

Does the Bladesinger ability allow me to cast wizard spells without the arcane spell failure chance from wearing armor? If it does, then I am so totally wearing armor :D.


Okay, I figured out I need the following books:

The Complete Warrior
Tome of Battle

Any other book suggestions to help me along with this character?
Oh and to answer the above question. I'm mapping out the character first. The group hasn't decided on a level start yet.

Neon Knight
2007-09-01, 08:57 PM
About the Swashbuckler: This is a Roleplaying Game... Swashbuckler sounds like it may lead to Dread Pirate etc... get the idea? Names are a little more important for me than when I was doing my Ranger character.

They shouldn't be.



Two Letters about the Warblade: NO. Besides, I'd like to see what happens with this current combo...

This is your build, and what you say goes, but I would like to note that Warblades have INT bonuses to certain combat functions, which complients Wizard/Bladesinger. Warblades also possess d12 hit dice, a tasty treat. And, in this posters humble opinion, a Warblade focusing on Diamond Mind (Concentration, Mental and Psychological Warfare, Striking First, Precise Blows) and Iron Heart (Pure Weapon Skill) will represent what you seem to desire better.



As for the Bladesinger ability... does it work with wizard spells though? Wizards are not proficient in Light Armor and basically will fail at casting while wearing it but does the Bladesinger ability supercede that and allow me to cast even with armor?

I believe that the bladesinger ability applies to any spells that would suffer arcane spell failure. So yes, if you have light armor on, and only light armor, no shield, then you may cast free of any arcane spell failure. At least, free of any arcane spell failure caused by the armor.

Dhavaer
2007-09-01, 08:58 PM
Yes, Bladesingers can cast spells in light armour.

Draz74
2007-09-01, 09:01 PM
About the Swashbuckler: This is a Roleplaying Game... Swashbuckler sounds like it may lead to Dread Pirate etc... get the idea? Names are a little more important for me than when I was doing my Ranger character.

Since you referenced an example from the Order of the Stick earlier, here's one back at you. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html) What the game mechanics say is a character's class, is not necessarily what the character thinks of themselves as. This is a very important roleplaying tool!


Yeah I know Bladesinger isn't from ToB. But it just fit into the sentence! :smallamused:

Two Letters about the Warblade: NO. Besides, I'd like to see what happens with this current combo...

Why not? (Sure, you won't be a typical Warblade. But if you accept my argument above, you should realize that a Warblade is easily adaptable to the flavor you are looking for.)

And you can preview the Warblade for yourself, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) even before you buy the book. Maybe you'll find it meets your needs better than you thought. I personally think it's very elven.

If you stick with Swordsage, though ... you'd better have good stats. And it will depend a lot on what level you start the game at, too. (Though it looks like you're planning to start your game at Level 20 or so ... unusual! Are you really starting a campaign out in the Epic???) Oh, and you'll probably do better if you enter Bladesinger as soon as possible, and then alternate between Bladesinger levels and Swordsage levels, rather than taking all your Swordsage levels first. Two Bladesinger levels between each Swordsage level is the best, with the way Tome of Battle classes work.


As for the Bladesinger ability... does it work with wizard spells though? Wizards are not proficient in Light Armor and basically will fail at casting while wearing it but does the Bladesinger ability supercede that and allow me to cast even with armor?

The up-to-date Bladesinger (the one in Complete Warrior, as opposed to the one in Sword & Fist or whatever) doesn't get a separate spellcasting ability of its own. It just improves whatever spellcasting ability you had before you entered the class -- in your case, Wizard. So yes, its casting abilities all work with wizard spells, if wizard spells are what you use to enter the prestige class.

And I think they get this ability at Level 2, as opposed to what Dr. Weasel said. Level 6 is the ability to Take 10 on Defensive Casting checks. But it's possible I'm remembering those two backwards.

Neon Knight
2007-09-01, 09:06 PM
And I think they get this ability at Level 2, as opposed to what Dr. Weasel said. Level 6 is the ability to Take 10 on Defensive Casting checks. But it's possible I'm remembering those two backwards.

You have them reversed. Level 2 is the take 10, and 6 is the no arcane spell failure.

de-trick
2007-09-01, 09:06 PM
Also unless you start out at 20th level I would not plan that far, things can change quickly in D&D one second you have a head next you lost it

Neftren
2007-09-01, 09:09 PM
Yes, multiple people have specified that I should alternate two levels or so between classes. I guess I agree but I do have to point out I never specified exactly what order I was putting my classes in. Only basic requirement was that I have something along the lines of at least 5 Wizard levels... and the two other aforementioned classes.

As for what the character thinks of himself as... well it helps the creative juices if the character is what he thinks he's supposed to be. :smallsmile:

As for attributes... I'm thinking along the lines of a ton of Dex, and above average Wis and Int... so I might cheat on my dice rolls to improve my stats a bit to balance the character since many people seem to have the consensus that this is gonna suck...

Neon Knight
2007-09-01, 09:11 PM
As for attributes... I'm thinking along the lines of a ton of Dex, and above average Wis and Int... so I might cheat on my dice rolls to improve my stats a bit to balance the character since many people seem to have the consensus that this is gonna suck...

Firstly, never ever cheat. Not only is it wrong, but if you are caught, you will lose a great deal of respect and trust. Not worth it.

Secondly, DEX, WIS, INT, and CON are all stats you want to be relatively high. The viability of the build really is determined by what level you start at.

Neftren
2007-09-01, 09:13 PM
Firstly, never ever cheat. Not only is it wrong, but if you are caught, you will lose a great deal of respect and trust. Not worth it.

Secondly, DEX, WIS, INT, and CON are all stats you want to be relatively high. The viability of the build really is determined by what level you start at.

As for cheating, I didn't mean making my rolls uber high... just rolling until I get what I need... so theoretically if I had a computer generated rolling machine... I just spam the button over and over again until I get something decent...

I'm not sure whether I should put more focus into spellcasting to improve my Bladesinger ability to cast a spell during my attack round... but since my wizard level is still relatively low, I'm not sure it's really worth it.

Neon Knight
2007-09-01, 09:18 PM
As for cheating, I didn't mean making my rolls uber high... just rolling until I get what I need... so theoretically if I had a computer generated rolling machine... I just spam the button over and over again until I get something decent...

I'm not sure whether I should put more focus into spellcasting to improve my Bladesinger ability to cast a spell during my attack round... but since my wizard level is still relatively low, I'm not sure it's really worth it.

Just... if it is a concern, ask for point buy. That way, you can make sure you get the stats you need.

The most effective spell casting melee characters (often called a gish) employ buffs to improve their melee abilities, in addition to a little battle field control. Remember, if you are casting spells, you are not using your melee abilities. If you are attacking, you are not casting spells. But if you a cast a spell that improves your melee ability, you use both of your character's features towards one goal at the same time.

Neftren
2007-09-01, 09:22 PM
Well, I get a sort of "free" attack on my attack round with my weapon so I guess we'll use magic missile for now as a random spell we can pretend I'm using on my attack along with my rapier... as for specialization in a school... I was thinking Abjuration as my specialization and dropping Necromancy and Conjuration... that way I can cast shields to protect myself and augment my light armor...

Oh and if anyone has a reccomended booklist in addition to:

Tome of Battle and The Complete Warrior, please PM me or something...

I will be taking a short recess and will return later to check on what other people think about the current combo...

Neon Knight
2007-09-01, 09:39 PM
Well, I get a sort of "free" attack on my attack round with my weapon so I guess we'll use magic missile for now... as for specialization in a school... I was thinking Abjuration as my specialization and dropping Necromancy and Conjuration... that way I can cast shields to protect myself and augment my light armor...

It is a swift action, which is different. A large number of ToB manuvers employ swift actions.

Damage dealing spells like Magic Missile are generally a poor, poor choice. Why not quicken something that will, say, actually be a tad more useful? Debuffs, Buffs, and battlefield control are more resource efficient paths for a wizard. Melee fighters already deal good damage (when getting their full attacks. ToB characters can match the full attacks of Fighters and Barbarians using standard actions, a massive improvement) and a properly specced melee character will be able to deliver damage to single targets that no blaster caster can hope to match without significant expenditure of resources, while the melee guys does it for free.

Don't drop Necromancy. In addition to being generally awesome, you'll miss out on some awesome debuff spells like Ray of Enfeeblement and the always awesome Enervation. Conjuration is a beautiful school as well. If anything, I'd drop Evocation.

Neftren
2007-09-01, 09:48 PM
But in that case I still have to drop another school... Enchanting... I guess I could pay another wizard for his services...

I think I may stay with a NG alignment so Necromancy just seems outta whack but since this is my first time really experimenting with the caster classes and not just taking a pre generated wizard for example... I guess Necromancy is worth a shot. In that case I should probably get a Spellbook along with the two other books I need to get all the latest info on the character classes not outlined in various sites...

Oh and Magic Missile was just a random spell inserted in there for the "effect" purposes. As Redcloak points out to Xykon that Magic Missile is just a pointless spell... it was just the first spell that I thought of... randomly that is...

Neon Knight
2007-09-01, 09:56 PM
But in that case I still have to drop another school... Enchanting... I guess I could pay another wizard for his services...

I think I may stay with a NG alignment so Necromancy just seems outta whack but since this is my first time really experimenting with the caster classes and not just taking a pre generated wizard for example... I guess Necromancy is worth a shot. In that case I should probably get a Spellbook along with the two other books I need to get all the latest info on the character classes not outlined in various sites...

Oh and Magic Missile was just a random spell inserted in there for the "effect" purposes. As Redcloak points out to Xykon that Magic Missile is just a pointless spell... it was just the first spell that I thought of... randomly that is...

By all means, if raising the dead and draining away peoples strength so that their one mighty limbs become twisted, atrophied mockeries of what they once were is against what your character would do, then ban Necromancy. But if you are merely looking for the most efficient use of the resources available to you, then Necromancy has some tasty treats.

In truth, I may have misspoken. Necromancy is not the best choice. Your debuffs will not be that impressive, because your caster level and INT are unlikely to be pumped up enough to make save or dies and save or sucks truly lethal.

Just focus on the schools that bring you buffs.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-01, 10:11 PM
Whatever you drop, keep Transmutation and Abjuration as they're probably the best Gish schools. Conjuration is the best school for a primary caster, but you'll be most efficient using nearly all your spells to buff yourself.

de-trick
2007-09-01, 10:25 PM
if you are having a hard time picking a school be a general wizard no banned schools

Neftren
2007-09-02, 06:14 AM
Eh, I could do that too, since yes, my wizard side is going to be pretty wimpy compared to the rest of my char...

Neftren
2007-09-02, 06:36 PM
I was considering adding an additional 5 classes of Rogue in for Evasion and Uncanny dodge... and Sneak Attack... So I've got

5 Levels of Wizard
5 Levels of Rogue
The rest are a Swordsage/Bladesinger combination...

Neon Knight
2007-09-02, 06:53 PM
I think you're spreading yourself out too much. And being needlessly complicated. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Neftren
2007-09-03, 09:23 AM
I guess I'll stick to the original combo...

Neftren
2007-09-03, 11:13 AM
Right, here's what I'm thinking level wise:

Wizard
Wizard
Swordsage
Wizard
Wizard
Swordsage

Until I meet my requirements for Bladesinger:

Which I'm unsure as to how to level after that (I don't have ToB or Complete Warr.)

Neftren
2007-09-03, 12:07 PM
Can someone give me the swordsage info... ie Hit Die, class skills etc? or a link to where I can find it