Why do mundane crafters exist?

[DRD1812]

I'm coming at this from a Pathfinder perspective, but the question applies to d20 in general. When someone can just cast fabricate and masterwork transformation, why are there still village blacksmiths? How do you justify that mess?

Relevant comic for reference (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/crafty-thief).

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm coming at this from a Pathfinder perspective, but the question applies to d20 in general. When someone can just cast fabricate and masterwork transformation, why are there still village blacksmiths? How do you justify that mess?

Relevant comic for reference (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/crafty-thief).

It's because of the rarity of spellcasters. Also, fabricate demands a craft check for anything that requires a degree of craftsmanship so even if spellcasters using fabricate were the preferred method of manufacture, they still have to know how to do it manually.

[Vizzerdrix]

Not everyone can learn magic, but anyone can learn a craft. Also fabricate is high level magic. Who wants to work that hard to learn to cast something like that just to fix horseshoes when you can do so much more?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

They don't. Any proper setting is a post-scarcity utopia powered by millenia of accumulated magic items which make mundane crafters irrelevant. Either that or spellcasters are too rare/unreliable/busy to spend their lives crafting mundane stuff, and therefore most things are still made my old dwarves who're bitter about their "greatest work" occasionally being equaled and mass-produced by a High Elf archwizard with Fabricate and very high Int.

[Uncle Pine]

Especially from a Pathfinder perspective, mundane crafting still has its uses. You'll never get an evil magic armor as cool as the one enchanted with Profession (midwife) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/master-craftsman-final/).

http://i.imgur.com/Hyzy4Zw.jpg

Imagine something like this, except it's a full plate and one hundred times creepier.

[DRD1812]

They don't. Any proper setting is a post-scarcity utopia powered by millenia of accumulated magic items which make mundane crafters irrelevant.

What, like the Tippyverse? Never heard of it. >_>

I guess I was more getting at, "How do you personally justify it?"

[Telonius]

Most craft skills (Blacksmithing in particular) confer a little-known bonus on people who use them regularly: they have a small but non-zero chance of being the adoptive or biological parent of their country's next ruler, the Chosen One of prophecy, or a hero in general. There's another roll after the hero is born to determine if they have a Tragic Backstory. If the parent survives that, they're almost guaranteed to have a pretty luxurious retirement.

[Gullintanni]

Not everyone can learn magic, but anyone can learn a craft. Also fabricate is high level magic. Who wants to work that hard to learn to cast something like that just to fix horseshoes when you can do so much more?

Emphasis added.

I mean, if you have the xp and the int score... why not? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) :smalltongue::smalltongue:

[Nifft]

Most craft skills (Blacksmithing in particular) confer a little-known bonus on people who use them regularly: they have a small but non-zero chance of being the adoptive or biological parent of their country's next ruler, the Chosen One of prophecy, or a hero in general. There's another roll after the hero is born to determine if they have a Tragic Backstory. If the parent survives that, they're almost guaranteed to have a pretty luxurious retirement.

1) That's hilarious.

2) What about the poor old grandmother who lived long enough to see her child become the villain?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Emphasis added.

I mean, if you have the xp and the int score... why not? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) :smalltongue::smalltongue:

I would imagine lack of opportunity. Go ahead and try to figure out calculus without text-book or teacher, see how that goes.

[Gullintanni]

I would imagine lack of opportunity. Go ahead and try to figure out calculus without text-book or teacher, see how that goes.

There are no rules in the game for learning Calculus. Wizard is a class. Ergo xp = Learning magic. Have you not read the comic? :smalltongue:

[Nifft]

I would imagine lack of opportunity. Go ahead and try to figure out calculus without text-book or teacher, see how that goes.

Two old dead guys did that independently, and they didn't even have facebook wasting their time all day, so it can't be that hard.

[tyckspoon]

It's because of the rarity of spellcasters. Also, fabricate demands a craft check for anything that requires a degree of craftsmanship so even if spellcasters using fabricate were the preferred method of manufacture, they still have to know how to do it manually.

To expand on this: The time and attention of a caster capable of using Fabricate is expensive. Sure, it gets you your item now, but you have to compensate that caster for his spell and you still have to cover the cost of the material he's going to Fabricate for you. Plus find the one who bothered to invest in Craft skills so he can make your fancy item, or also pay him for the spells he will have to know and cast in order to give himeslf the needed Craft check. So it's a tradeoff between money and time, and most people in the world will have significantly more time than they do money. Add to that the fact that most regular items just don't take long enough to make to justify paying the premium for an instant Fabricate and there should still be a justifiable niche for mundane craftspersons.

(Having some items that require magically-enhanced crafting to make could justify their otherwise absurd costs, however - things like Full Plate or spyglasses may be primarily produced by craftwizards, because nobody sensible wants to spend the best part of a year making Full Plate by the normal rules, and perhaps it needs magic to make a good enough lense for a spyglass because mundane technology hasn't figured out how to create and grind glass that clear and even yet.)

[Zombulian]

Pretty much what everyone else has said. Magic - though common to players - is generally supposed to be considered rare. Players commonly have magic because - you guessed it - they are uncommon people. NPC classes demonstrate this fairly well when you consider the fact that the only casting one is the Adept, and they get minor creation as a 4th level spell (at level 12!).

Also I want to note that the author of that comic doesn't know what an anniversary is.

[InterstellarPro]

I would imagine lack of opportunity. Go ahead and try to figure out calculus without text-book or teacher, see how that goes.

Studies are finding that we are teaching math in the wrong order, and that's what is making it so difficult to learn:
5-year-olds can learn calculus (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/5-year-olds-can-learn-calculus/284124/)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Studies are finding that we are teaching math in the wrong order, and that's what is making it so difficult to learn:
5-year-olds can learn calculus (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/5-year-olds-can-learn-calculus/284124/)

I don't want to go off on a complete, off-topic tirade so I'll just leave it at "The headline is sensationalist click-bait and doesn't follow from the article." :smallmad:

[InterstellarPro]

I don't want to go off on a complete, off-topic tirade so I'll just leave it at "The headline is sensationalist click-bait and doesn't follow from the article." :smallmad:

While the author of the article clearly did not understand what they were writing about, I've reviewed some of the natural math, and it does, in fact, involve concepts of calculus. While the children may not be aware of that fact (and clearly the author of the article would not understand it), a mathematician would. And that's all I'm going to say on that topic.

Mundane crafters are fun!

[Elkad]

Most craft skills (Blacksmithing in particular) confer a little-known bonus on people who use them regularly: they have a small but non-zero chance of being the adoptive or biological parent of their country's next ruler, the Chosen One of prophecy, or a hero in general. There's another roll after the hero is born to determine if they have a Tragic Backstory. If the parent survives that, they're almost guaranteed to have a pretty luxurious retirement.

Chances are even higher if you are a humble shepherd. If you are friends with the apprentice blacksmith, all his bonuses are secretly transferred to you as well, and he gets a sidekick slot instead.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm coming at this from a Pathfinder perspective, but the question applies to d20 in general. When someone can just cast fabricate and masterwork transformation, why are there still village blacksmiths? How do you justify that mess?

Relevant comic for reference (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/crafty-thief).

Population figures, and it's not less expensive if you go with the listed costs for things to hire crafting and casting.

Fabricate is "Level sorcerer/wizard 5; Domain artifice 5; Elemental School void 5, wood 5". Masterwork Transformation is bard 2, cleric 2, druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2.

So Sorcerers, Wizards, some Clerics, and certain classes that can draw from those lists can have both spells (not necessarily will). Fabricate dominates on the restrictions, so I'm looking for a Sorcerer-10+, Wizard-9+, or Cleric-9+.

Take a Town Generator (https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php) (Based on the D&D DMG tables, but they're similar enough). I'm picking... "Small Town" and leaving the rest as "any". That resulted in This (https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=4&seed=250427).

Cleric... capped at 5th. Wizard... capped at 4th. Sorcerer also capped at 4th. This "Small Town" is incapable of that trick.

What about This Large Town (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=5&seed=617803)? Rolled a Magical Theocracy, so should be pretty magical, right? 2,922 people. Cleric... stopped at 6th. Wizard stopped at 4th. Sorcerer at 7th.

What about This small city (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=6&seed=769970)? Cleric-7, Wizard-9!, Sorcerer-9. There is *one* person in this town who can finally cast Fabricate... once a day, twice if a specialist in Transmutation... maybe a 3rd time, as it's feasible for a Pathfinder Wizard-9 to have a 20 Int with the elite array (15 base, +2 racial, +2 level up, and a +2 or better headband). The population? 5,416.

... and he may not have taken ranks in Craft. That's fine... Crafter's Fortune plus his Int could get him to the DC 19 for Full Plate, and he can cast Masterwork Transformation on that to not need to get a 20 on the check.

However... he's not going to underbid the armorsmith!

A basic Dwarf Expert-1 with Skill Focus(Craft (Armorsmithing)), a masterwork tool, and a rank in Craft(Armorsmithing) only has a +11 modifier (+2 racial, +2 masterwork tool, +3 Skill Focus, +1 rank, +3 class), and will take ... 1500 * 10 / (21*19) + 150 * 10 / (21 * 20) = 41 weeks to make a suit of full plate. But that's one trained hireling at 3 sp/day. Maybe 5, as he's very specialized. 41 weeks is 287 days is 1,435 silvers. Or 143.5 gp. His materials costs 550 gp. So that's 693.5 gp to pay him to do it (although you may also need to provide room and board to get those rates) (a non-dwarf would want a similarly-built helper to get the same modifier).

The Wizard? A 5th level spell slot at caster level 9 markets at 9*10*5 gp = 450 gp, and he'll also need 500 gp in materials for the suit itself, plus 150 gp materials (and 2* 9 * 10 gp = 180 gp for the spell slot) for masterwork transformation, plus 1 * 9 * 10 = 90 gp for Crafter's Fortune. The Wizard is thus charging 450+500+150+180+90=1,370 gp for that same suit of masterwork full plate.

When I use listed rates for the necessary spells and components vs. listed rates for the labor for the dwarf... the Wizard-9 isn't underbidding the Dwarf. AND the wizard is much harder to find. Your basic Thorpe is liable to have at least one Expert running around.

[Vizzerdrix]

Emphasis added.

I mean, if you have the xp and the int score... why not? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) :smalltongue::smalltongue:

Not everyone is going to have the mental stats for it.

[ericgrau]

I'm coming at this from a Pathfinder perspective, but the question applies to d20 in general. When someone can just cast fabricate and masterwork transformation, why are there still village blacksmiths? How do you justify that mess?

Relevant comic for reference (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/crafty-thief).

Wizards are rare, experts are plentiful. Actually for any large scale problem you'll find that you can cast a spell and do 0.1% of it, or you can hire 100 commoners or experts for adventurer pocket change and do the whole thing. A tactic PCs should probably employ a lot more often.

[Mordaedil]

Population figures, and it's not less expensive if you go with the listed costs for things to hire crafting and casting.

Fabricate is "Level sorcerer/wizard 5; Domain artifice 5; Elemental School void 5, wood 5". Masterwork Transformation is bard 2, cleric 2, druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2.

So Sorcerers, Wizards, some Clerics, and certain classes that can draw from those lists can have both spells (not necessarily will). Fabricate dominates on the restrictions, so I'm looking for a Sorcerer-10+, Wizard-9+, or Cleric-9+.

Take a Town Generator (https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php) (Based on the D&D DMG tables, but they're similar enough). I'm picking... "Small Town" and leaving the rest as "any". That resulted in This (https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=4&seed=250427).

Cleric... capped at 5th. Wizard... capped at 4th. Sorcerer also capped at 4th. This "Small Town" is incapable of that trick.

What about This Large Town (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=5&seed=617803)? Rolled a Magical Theocracy, so should be pretty magical, right? 2,922 people. Cleric... stopped at 6th. Wizard stopped at 4th. Sorcerer at 7th.

What about This small city (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=6&seed=769970)? Cleric-7, Wizard-9!, Sorcerer-9. There is *one* person in this town who can finally cast Fabricate... once a day, twice if a specialist in Transmutation... maybe a 3rd time, as it's feasible for a Pathfinder Wizard-9 to have a 20 Int with the elite array (15 base, +2 racial, +2 level up, and a +2 or better headband). The population? 5,416.

... and he may not have taken ranks in Craft. That's fine... Crafter's Fortune plus his Int could get him to the DC 19 for Full Plate, and he can cast Masterwork Transformation on that to not need to get a 20 on the check.

However... he's not going to underbid the armorsmith!

A basic Dwarf Expert-1 with Skill Focus(Craft (Armorsmithing)), a masterwork tool, and a rank in Craft(Armorsmithing) only has a +11 modifier (+2 racial, +2 masterwork tool, +3 Skill Focus, +1 rank, +3 class), and will take ... 1500 * 10 / (21*19) + 150 * 10 / (21 * 20) = 41 weeks to make a suit of full plate. But that's one trained hireling at 3 sp/day. Maybe 5, as he's very specialized. 41 weeks is 287 days is 1,435 silvers. Or 143.5 gp. His materials costs 550 gp. So that's 693.5 gp to pay him to do it (although you may also need to provide room and board to get those rates) (a non-dwarf would want a similarly-built helper to get the same modifier).

The Wizard? A 5th level spell slot at caster level 9 markets at 9*10*5 gp = 450 gp, and he'll also need 500 gp in materials for the suit itself, plus 150 gp materials (and 2* 9 * 10 gp = 180 gp for the spell slot) for masterwork transformation, plus 1 * 9 * 10 = 90 gp for Crafter's Fortune. The Wizard is thus charging 450+500+150+180+90=1,370 gp for that same suit of masterwork full plate.

When I use listed rates for the necessary spells and components vs. listed rates for the labor for the dwarf... the Wizard-9 isn't underbidding the Dwarf. AND the wizard is much harder to find. Your basic Thorpe is liable to have at least one Expert running around.

I wish we had a golf-clap emote, because this was expertly reearched and put together.

Well done.

[Jack_Simth]

I wish we had a golf-clap emote, because this was expertly reearched and put together.

Well done.

Thanks. Some addendums:

The dwarf expert-1's labor charge is based on time. The Wizard-9's labor charge is mostly fixed. This means that for cheaper goods, it favors the Expert; for more expensive goods, it eventually favors the wizard (DC 20 goods valued at 8,640 gp is the break-even for that skill check DC).

Take a Masterwork Artisan's Tools (50 gp). The dwarf makes 420 sp/week progress on the masterwork component (which is basically all of it - 48 gp); he needs a week and a day to finish off the Masterwork component, and call it another day for the regular component. 9 days of his 5 sp/day is just 4.5 gp for his labor (plus materials). The Wizard is charging 720 gp for his labor component (and his materials are higher - Masterwork Transformation uses the full price difference, not the crafting difference). It's a no-brainer to go with the Expert-1 if you've got the time (and if you don't, it's cheaper to buy it off the shelf for full market price from a merchant that stocks them).

That also means that there is a break even point. At 5 sp/day, +11 / taking 10 vs. DC 20, the Expert's labor is 3.5 gp (35 silver for 7 day's work - one week) for every 42 gp worth of progress (21*20 = 420 sp). The Wizard is charging a flat 720 gp labor. Thus, the Wizard's labor is less than the expert's if the expert would need 205.714285714... weeks or more (720 gp / 3.5 gp per week = 205.714285714... weeks, but close enough for this). 205.714285714... * 42 gp = 8,640 gp. So if you're buying things made out of the higher-end special materials (Medium or heavier Adamantium Armor, Heavy Dreamstone armor, any Geranite armor, Heavy armor Glasssteel, Horacalcum armor, Heavy Mithral armor, et cetera), it makes sense to hire the Wizard. A lot of the golem bodies likewise. For the super-majority of mundane goods, however: Get an expert.

[Psyren]

The answer is ludonarrative dissonance, nothing more nothing less. For myself, I prefer to come up with reasons why the status quo might logically exist, than to try and poke holes in the setting (see quote in my sig). The two most plausible reasons for me are:

1) We have incomplete information (e.g. magic is, in-universe, harder to learn than the game rules make it look.) This is borne out by the fact that spellcasters remain a clear minority (EDIT: See Jack_Smith's statistics above for support) despite magic's many obvious advantages. Thus, mundane crafters exist because relatively few people are able to become wizards, resulting in insufficient wizards to meet the world's demand.)

2) There is some larger force or faction enforcing the quasi-medieval status quo despite magic's presence (i.e."a god did it.") Whether it's the blacksmith god who just wants there to still be blacksmiths, or the goddess of entropy ensuring that there are just as many magical ways to ruin crafted goods (e.g. rust monsters and acid rain) as there are ways to magically make more, or the god/goddess of magic enforcing limits on what can be crafted that way, etc.

It could even be both - magic could be hard AND revolutionizing industry magically may be stymied.


I will say there's nothing wrong with poking holes and coming up with a new setting that theorizes what a world where magic replaces industry would look like. You can get some interesting results from it (e.g. Tippyverse). My issue is that those settings almost invariably end up interesting primarily as places to just talk about, rather than actually go on adventures and roleplay in. In Tippy's setting for instance, there's no scarcity and no wars. A utopian ideal, absolutely, but think how many archetypical fantasy stories those 5 words alone just eliminated.

[King of Nowhere]

I alwas considered the cost of having a spell cast to be ludicrous; 450 gp for a single casting of a 5th level spell that costs the wizard absolutely nothing. It was made to discourage adventurers to buy spells, but I figure in a realistic economy most spellcasters would sell spells at a fraction of that price, as it is great pay for minimal effort.

Anyway, a wizard is also unlikely to be specialized in crafting as much as the best crafter. So the best crafter can still do some stuff that the wizard is incapable of replicating. That's another niche for crafter utility.


Chances are even higher if you are a humble shepherd. If you are friends with the apprentice blacksmith, all his bonuses are secretly transferred to you as well, and he gets a sidekick slot instead.
And every girl in your village has at least ten times a greater chance of manifesting sorceror power.

[Jack_Simth]

I alwas considered the cost of having a spell cast to be ludicrous; 450 gp for a single casting of a 5th level spell that costs the wizard absolutely nothing. It was made to discourage adventurers to buy spells, but I figure in a realistic economy most spellcasters would sell spells at a fraction of that price, as it is great pay for minimal effort.Compare to Speaking Fees for Former Presidents (https://www.thoughtco.com/former-presidents-speaking-fees-3368127) or Neurosurgeon Salaries (https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Neurosurgeon/Salary). What does an office visit cost a doctor? "The average price of a new uninsured patient appointment was quoted as $160 (https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2015/primary-care-visits-available-to-most-uninsured-but-at-a-high-price.html)". If Earth is a dead-magic E6 world, and a standard doctor is equivalent to a 3rd level Cleric in terms of pay scale, that fifteen to twenty minute appointment is equivalent of hiring a 1st level spell from such a character (as a 3rd level NPC cleric will usually only be able to cast three-ish spells per day of 2nd level, but the doctor will see several patients in that timeframe... so much closer to the Cleric spending 1st level slots).

[Braininthejar2]

because only player characters level up every other week.

For most people, becoming a wizard, or a great craftsman is a lifetime commitment.

Fabricating really good stuff requires both.

[Jack_Simth]

Oooh, also: It's not just the Expert NPC class that gets Craft. The Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, and Warrior also have it in-class. A Random Thorpe (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=1&seed=259261) with a population of 46 had 2 warrior 1's, 41 commoner-1's, and 2 expert 1's (plus a level 2 bard). Any (or all) of those could potentially have a rank in Craft, get the Class Skill bonus, get Skill Focus and a masterwork artisan's tools appropriate to their trade.

[Venger]

I will say there's nothing wrong with poking holes and coming up with a new setting that theorizes what a world where magic replaces industry would look like. You can get some interesting results from it (e.g. Tippyverse). My issue is that those settings almost invariably end up interesting primarily as places to just talk about, rather than actually go on adventures and roleplay in. In Tippy's setting for instance, there's no scarcity and no wars. A utopian ideal, absolutely, but think how many archetypical fantasy stories those 5 words alone just eliminated.
You may not like tippy's setting, but there is still scarcity and there are still wars. They are largely relegated to the wildlands between large cities, but they still exist, as does the ability to rp and play the game. He doesn't just sit around talking about his setting with his group, he plays the game like the rest of us do.

[Psyren]

You may not like tippy's setting, but there is still scarcity and there are still wars. They are largely relegated to the wildlands between large cities, but they still exist, as does the ability to rp and play the game. He doesn't just sit around talking about his setting with his group, he plays the game like the rest of us do.

I didn't say he doesn't play in it; I was saying I wouldn't.

And "scarcity and conflict exists, it's just outside the cities" doesn't actually change my point - it still limits the kinds of stories that can be told in such a setting.

[Nifft]

I'm coming at this from a Pathfinder perspective, but the question applies to d20 in general. When someone can just cast fabricate and masterwork transformation, why are there still village blacksmiths? How do you justify that mess?

Why do humanoids exist in d20?

Dragons can just cast fabricate and they get way better HD / racial spellcasting / no penalties for being old.

Put aside the fact that non-PC classes are unnecessary in d20 -- humanoids as a whole are unnecessary. There's nothing good about being a humanoid when you could be a Solar or a Lich or a Dragon instead.

How do you justify that mess?

[Venger]

Why do humanoids exist in d20?

Dragons can just cast fabricate and they get way better HD / racial spellcasting / no penalties for being old.

Put aside the fact that non-PC classes are unnecessary in d20 -- humanoids as a whole are unnecessary. There's nothing good about being a humanoid when you could be a Solar or a Lich or a Dragon instead.

How do you justify that mess?

bonus feat at lvl 1 and extra skill points

[Nifft]

bonus feat at lvl 1 and extra skill points

But you could just start out as a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon) with 78 racial HD and all the feats that come along with those HD, isn't that better than having one bonus feat and some skill points?

Why bother being a humanoid when Epic Dragons are just one hyperlink away?


(I suspect that the answer to that question is pretty much the same as the answer to why mundane crafters exist.)

[King of Nowhere]

Compare to Speaking Fees for Former Presidents (https://www.thoughtco.com/former-presidents-speaking-fees-3368127) or Neurosurgeon Salaries (https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Neurosurgeon/Salary). What does an office visit cost a doctor? "The average price of a new uninsured patient appointment was quoted as $160 (https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2015/primary-care-visits-available-to-most-uninsured-but-at-a-high-price.html)". If Earth is a dead-magic E6 world, and a standard doctor is equivalent to a 3rd level Cleric in terms of pay scale, that fifteen to twenty minute appointment is equivalent of hiring a 1st level spell from such a character (as a 3rd level NPC cleric will usually only be able to cast three-ish spells per day of 2nd level, but the doctor will see several patients in that timeframe... so much closer to the Cleric spending 1st level slots).
160 dollars is, according to my guidelines, roughly 3 gp. I consider 1 gp equivalent to roughly 50 dollars because you can hire a specialized worker for one day with it, and that's a reasonable salary for a preindustrial society (at purchase power parity). A common laborer gets some 3 silver per day, which amounts to 500 dollars per month, which again at purchase power parity is about what a common laborer earned in a preindustrial society. A farmer earns 1 gp per month, but a farmer eat his own food and lives in his own house (or pays the rent as a percentage on food).
So, according to my guideline for price conversion and for services, a 3rd level cleric casting a 1st level spell should be paid 1-3 gp, which is about equivalent to what those doctors are paid.


I didn't say he doesn't play in it; I was saying I wouldn't.

And "scarcity and conflict exists, it's just outside the cities" doesn't actually change my point - it still limits the kinds of stories that can be told in such a setting.
It limits some kind of stories, but on the other hand it opens op other kinds of stories. You give some, you take some

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why do humanoids exist in d20?

Dragons can just cast fabricate and they get way better HD / racial spellcasting / no penalties for being old.

Put aside the fact that non-PC classes are unnecessary in d20 -- humanoids as a whole are unnecessary. There's nothing good about being a humanoid when you could be a Solar or a Lich or a Dragon instead.

How do you justify that mess?

The simple answer is they're much easier to produce and they -can- grow in power hilariously faster than just about anything.

[Venger]

But you could just start out as a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#prismaticDragon) with 78 racial HD and all the feats that come along with those HD, isn't that better than having one bonus feat and some skill points?

Why bother being a humanoid when Epic Dragons are just one hyperlink away?


(I suspect that the answer to that question is pretty much the same as the answer to why mundane crafters exist.)

Most games don't start at level 78

[InterstellarPro]

Most games don't start at level 78

I believe that is Nifft's point. He is saying that just because something powerful exists, it does not negate the existence of everything less powerful. Just because magical crafting can occur, it does not negate the need for mundane crafting. His comparison may be a false equivalence, but he seems to be making the comparison quite obvious. Your post does not point out that it is a false equivalence if that was your intent. Instead, it seems to be attempting to answer his question which he basically admits has a very obvious answer.

[Venger]

I believe that is Nifft's point. He is saying that just because something powerful exists, it does not negate the existence of everything less powerful. Just because magical crafting can occur, it does not negate the need for mundane crafting. His comparison may be a false equivalence, but he seems to be making the comparison quite obvious. Your post does not point out that it is a false equivalence if that was your intent. Instead, it seems to be attempting to answer his question which he basically admits has a very obvious answer.

It is a textbook false equivalence.

"More powerful" assumes that they are both actually options at the same point, like playing an la 0 human versus playing an la 0 elf. a 70+ecl dragon is not a valid choice at this stage, so its mention is nonsensical.

I couldn't very well ask if he was serious, but you seem to have found a way around it. Well done.

[Zombulian]

Population figures, and it's not less expensive if you go with the listed costs for things to hire crafting and casting.

Fabricate is "Level sorcerer/wizard 5; Domain artifice 5; Elemental School void 5, wood 5". Masterwork Transformation is bard 2, cleric 2, druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2.

So Sorcerers, Wizards, some Clerics, and certain classes that can draw from those lists can have both spells (not necessarily will). Fabricate dominates on the restrictions, so I'm looking for a Sorcerer-10+, Wizard-9+, or Cleric-9+.

Take a Town Generator (https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php) (Based on the D&D DMG tables, but they're similar enough). I'm picking... "Small Town" and leaving the rest as "any". That resulted in This (https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=4&seed=250427).

Cleric... capped at 5th. Wizard... capped at 4th. Sorcerer also capped at 4th. This "Small Town" is incapable of that trick.

What about This Large Town (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=5&seed=617803)? Rolled a Magical Theocracy, so should be pretty magical, right? 2,922 people. Cleric... stopped at 6th. Wizard stopped at 4th. Sorcerer at 7th.

What about This small city (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=6&seed=769970)? Cleric-7, Wizard-9!, Sorcerer-9. There is *one* person in this town who can finally cast Fabricate... once a day, twice if a specialist in Transmutation... maybe a 3rd time, as it's feasible for a Pathfinder Wizard-9 to have a 20 Int with the elite array (15 base, +2 racial, +2 level up, and a +2 or better headband). The population? 5,416.

... and he may not have taken ranks in Craft. That's fine... Crafter's Fortune plus his Int could get him to the DC 19 for Full Plate, and he can cast Masterwork Transformation on that to not need to get a 20 on the check.

However... he's not going to underbid the armorsmith!

A basic Dwarf Expert-1 with Skill Focus(Craft (Armorsmithing)), a masterwork tool, and a rank in Craft(Armorsmithing) only has a +11 modifier (+2 racial, +2 masterwork tool, +3 Skill Focus, +1 rank, +3 class), and will take ... 1500 * 10 / (21*19) + 150 * 10 / (21 * 20) = 41 weeks to make a suit of full plate. But that's one trained hireling at 3 sp/day. Maybe 5, as he's very specialized. 41 weeks is 287 days is 1,435 silvers. Or 143.5 gp. His materials costs 550 gp. So that's 693.5 gp to pay him to do it (although you may also need to provide room and board to get those rates) (a non-dwarf would want a similarly-built helper to get the same modifier).

The Wizard? A 5th level spell slot at caster level 9 markets at 9*10*5 gp = 450 gp, and he'll also need 500 gp in materials for the suit itself, plus 150 gp materials (and 2* 9 * 10 gp = 180 gp for the spell slot) for masterwork transformation, plus 1 * 9 * 10 = 90 gp for Crafter's Fortune. The Wizard is thus charging 450+500+150+180+90=1,370 gp for that same suit of masterwork full plate.

When I use listed rates for the necessary spells and components vs. listed rates for the labor for the dwarf... the Wizard-9 isn't underbidding the Dwarf. AND the wizard is much harder to find. Your basic Thorpe is liable to have at least one Expert running around.

The thread should have ended after this post.

[ericgrau]

I alwas considered the cost of having a spell cast to be ludicrous; 450 gp for a single casting of a 5th level spell that costs the wizard absolutely nothing. It was made to discourage adventurers to buy spells, but I figure in a realistic economy most spellcasters would sell spells at a fraction of that price, as it is great pay for minimal effort.
Totally worth it. I'd use NPC casters a lot more if the DM made them available more. Especially clerics. If you alreay have someone in your party with the right spell then maybe not so much, but it's rare for a party to have access to every spell in the game. Even if you could learn it, if it's a one time thing it's cheaper to hire someone.

Yeah it doesn't take them much effort and it's easy money, but they're rare and that drives the demand. Likewise the reason PCs can't sell their services more is because of the difficulty of finding a matching buyer. Caster or not, paid work would yield less gold than adventuring but be a lot safer. But you can't always match buyer and seller.

[Jay R]

For the same reason that CEOs, Senators, and other rich and powerful people don't hire themselves out on the weekends to mow lawns or work in grocery stores.

Rich, high-class, high-level people don't do cheap, low-class work.

[Tvtyrant]

No caster would ever cast fabricate to make money, they are too busy assassinating each other over the right to cast Wall of Salt in a given area.

Mage trade wars are the worst.

[Jack_Simth]

The thread should have ended after this post.

... but then I couldn't have gotten to the additional notes about break-even points!

[TallerSpine]

Taken to an extreme, mundane crafting can look pretty magical! Imagine an Epic level Expert. He has a +100 in Craft: Basketweaving. He gets so good that when his village is threatened by a storm that will flood the village, he weaves an umbrella over the town. A warlord attacks. He meets the warlord on the battlefield and weaves baskets around every foe before they have a chance to swing. Soon, he develops a reputation as the Wicker Man. His legendary crafting techniques have actually reached across planes. He now has a permanent connection to the elemental plane of wicker. Upon his death, the plane ruptures. For the next millenium, his tomb is the site of some of the largest mass wickerings to ever befall the world!

[Doctor Awkward]

Population figures, and it's not less expensive if you go with the listed costs for things to hire crafting and casting.

Fabricate is "Level sorcerer/wizard 5; Domain artifice 5; Elemental School void 5, wood 5". Masterwork Transformation is bard 2, cleric 2, druid 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2.

So Sorcerers, Wizards, some Clerics, and certain classes that can draw from those lists can have both spells (not necessarily will). Fabricate dominates on the restrictions, so I'm looking for a Sorcerer-10+, Wizard-9+, or Cleric-9+.

Take a Town Generator (https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php) (Based on the D&D DMG tables, but they're similar enough). I'm picking... "Small Town" and leaving the rest as "any". That resulted in This (https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=4&seed=250427).

Cleric... capped at 5th. Wizard... capped at 4th. Sorcerer also capped at 4th. This "Small Town" is incapable of that trick.

What about This Large Town (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=5&seed=617803)? Rolled a Magical Theocracy, so should be pretty magical, right? 2,922 people. Cleric... stopped at 6th. Wizard stopped at 4th. Sorcerer at 7th.

What about This small city (http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php?do=town&size=6&seed=769970)? Cleric-7, Wizard-9!, Sorcerer-9. There is *one* person in this town who can finally cast Fabricate... once a day, twice if a specialist in Transmutation... maybe a 3rd time, as it's feasible for a Pathfinder Wizard-9 to have a 20 Int with the elite array (15 base, +2 racial, +2 level up, and a +2 or better headband). The population? 5,416.

... and he may not have taken ranks in Craft. That's fine... Crafter's Fortune plus his Int could get him to the DC 19 for Full Plate, and he can cast Masterwork Transformation on that to not need to get a 20 on the check.

However... he's not going to underbid the armorsmith!

A basic Dwarf Expert-1 with Skill Focus(Craft (Armorsmithing)), a masterwork tool, and a rank in Craft(Armorsmithing) only has a +11 modifier (+2 racial, +2 masterwork tool, +3 Skill Focus, +1 rank, +3 class), and will take ... 1500 * 10 / (21*19) + 150 * 10 / (21 * 20) = 41 weeks to make a suit of full plate. But that's one trained hireling at 3 sp/day. Maybe 5, as he's very specialized. 41 weeks is 287 days is 1,435 silvers. Or 143.5 gp. His materials costs 550 gp. So that's 693.5 gp to pay him to do it (although you may also need to provide room and board to get those rates) (a non-dwarf would want a similarly-built helper to get the same modifier).

The Wizard? A 5th level spell slot at caster level 9 markets at 9*10*5 gp = 450 gp, and he'll also need 500 gp in materials for the suit itself, plus 150 gp materials (and 2* 9 * 10 gp = 180 gp for the spell slot) for masterwork transformation, plus 1 * 9 * 10 = 90 gp for Crafter's Fortune. The Wizard is thus charging 450+500+150+180+90=1,370 gp for that same suit of masterwork full plate.

When I use listed rates for the necessary spells and components vs. listed rates for the labor for the dwarf... the Wizard-9 isn't underbidding the Dwarf. AND the wizard is much harder to find. Your basic Thorpe is liable to have at least one Expert running around.


...


...Why would either the dwarf or the wizard ever sell a suit of masterwork full-plate for less than the market value of 1,650?

[Nifft]

I believe that is Nifft's point. He is saying that just because something powerful exists, it does not negate the existence of everything less powerful. Just because magical crafting can occur, it does not negate the need for mundane crafting. His comparison may be a false equivalence, but he seems to be making the comparison quite obvious. Your post does not point out that it is a false equivalence if that was your intent. Instead, it seems to be attempting to answer his question which he basically admits has a very obvious answer.

Indeed.

Furthermore, there are a variety of reasons why less-powerful things exist, and those reasons are either in-world or authorial -- Watsonian or Doylist, if you will -- and I'd hoped to elicit from the OP which would have been the better tack in terms of justification.

You're saying something correct, but there's more to it than just that less-powerful things exist. Justifications can be made from directions including genre or economics, but ultimately the justification is going to be rooted in the needs of the fiction -- the needs of the PCs and their story, and that means the existence of genre-appropriate and/or economically-appropriate NPCs is mandated by justifications that are structurally equivalent to the fiction's need for humanoid NPCs.



Of course, the typical D&D story isn't the only story you can tell. You can go down the rabbit hole. It's entirely possible to play a game where everyone is an ancient dragon living in a post-scarcity magical economy, and there are no dull NPCs with dull NPC classes.

Most people don't play that game, and they don't play that game for a variety of reasons.

Which reason is yours for not playing that game?

That's the place to look for why mundane crafters exist.

[Mendicant]

While the author of the article clearly did not understand what they were writing about, I've reviewed some of the natural math, and it does, in fact, involve concepts of calculus. While the children may not be aware of that fact (and clearly the author of the article would not understand it), a mathematician would. And that's all I'm going to say on that topic.

I read the article, and I'm at a loss trying to figure out what the author didn't understand.

[Vizzerdrix]

Taken to an extreme, mundane crafting can look pretty magical! Imagine an Epic level Expert. He has a +100 in Craft: Basketweaving. He gets so good that when his village is threatened by a storm that will flood the village, he weaves an umbrella over the town. A warlord attacks. He meets the warlord on the battlefield and weaves baskets around every foe before they have a chance to swing. Soon, he develops a reputation as the Wicker Man. His legendary crafting techniques have actually reached across planes. He now has a permanent connection to the elemental plane of wicker. Upon his death, the plane ruptures. For the next millenium, his tomb is the site of some of the largest mass wickerings to ever befall the world!

I would like to see this build. It sounds amazing!

[Mystral]

I'm coming at this from a Pathfinder perspective, but the question applies to d20 in general. When someone can just cast fabricate and masterwork transformation, why are there still village blacksmiths? How do you justify that mess?

Relevant comic for reference (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/crafty-thief).

First, it takes far longer to become a competent wizard than to become a competent blacksmith, and not nearly as many people have what it takes to become a wizard.

Second, it's actually less cost effective. Masterwork transformation has material components worth the cost difference, so to make money the wizard would actually need to charge more money than the blacksmith.

And third, when a wizard is powerfull enough to do those things, he's not going to sit around casting spells to craft horseshoes and plows. He has better things to do.

[Jack_Simth]

...


...Why would either the dwarf or the wizard ever sell a suit of masterwork full-plate for less than the market value of 1,650?

Same reason a cook doesn't sell food to the restaurant at the restaurant's rates. The cook is selling labor to the restaurant, which sells the food. That might be because the cook wants a stable and predictable job at an established place (security - the restaurant owner absorbs most of the risks), that might be because the cook doesn't have the capital to open his own. Alternately, yes, the cook may very well open an independent restaurant (at which point, the cook does sell food at restaurant rates). Neither person in this scenario is selling the armor, they're using their normal labor rates on a commission.

[Luccan]

Even in one of the most magic-prolific official settings (Eberron), most people don't reach level 5 and their magic craftsmen are almost entirely Magewrights, with the occasional Wizard or Artificer popping up. It's really dependent on how easy the setting says it is to teach new magic users.

[Emperor Tippy]

In Tippy's setting for instance, there's no scarcity and no wars. A utopian ideal, absolutely, but think how many archetypical fantasy stories those 5 words alone just eliminated.

Scarcity is fairly iffy (at least in the cities) but where do you get the idea that wars don't exist? The cities are effectively in a constant state of war with one another (sometimes cold, sometimes very hot) and are always engaging in all manner of black ops (read ideal adventurer/PC quest fodder) against one another.


You may not like tippy's setting, but there is still scarcity and there are still wars. They are largely relegated to the wildlands between large cities, but they still exist, as does the ability to rp and play the game. He doesn't just sit around talking about his setting with his group, he plays the game like the rest of us do.

There are plenty of wars between cities as well, I mean the entire Tippyverse is primarily derived from my analysis of what Teleport Circle does to warfare. Sure the economic impact is equally important in many ways but that isn't what keeps the cities in existence.


I didn't say he doesn't play in it; I was saying I wouldn't.

And "scarcity and conflict exists, it's just outside the cities" doesn't actually change my point - it still limits the kinds of stories that can be told in such a setting.

I've honestly never really found a plot line that I couldn't run in Points of Light (or pretty much any other Tippyverse setting for that matter).

----
The real issue with Fabricate vs. mundane crafters is use activated/command word items.

A command word item of fabricate costs 81,000 GP. Halve the price for being Wondrous Architecture and you are looking at 40,500 GP. Expensive but not too bad for a city and now you have the Plinth of Creation (or whatever) where the town/city/guild's craftsmen come and for a small fee they can place the necessary raw materials on the plinth, speak the command word, and instantly produce whatever they want.

Very few spells have much of an effect on the setting, but put almost any of those spells into items that can repeatedly cast them for no cost and even the most minor ones (and Fabricate isn't one of the most minor ones) can drastically change a setting.

[DRD1812]

Why do humanoids exist in d20?

Dragons can just cast fabricate and they get way better HD / racial spellcasting / no penalties for being old.

Put aside the fact that non-PC classes are unnecessary in d20 -- humanoids as a whole are unnecessary. There's nothing good about being a humanoid when you could be a Solar or a Lich or a Dragon instead.

How do you justify that mess?

I get your point, but I don't think that casters are quite as rare solar angles. Take Waterdeep for example. We know that all wizards and sorcerers must Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors:

source: http://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/cities/waterdeep.shtml

We know that there are approximately 1000 members.

source: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Watchful_Order_of_Magists_and_Protectors#cite_note-CoS.7C30-0

That doesn't include clerics, druids, bards, unaffiliated wizards and sorcerers, or anybody else with casting capabilities. I think we can conservatively say that there are at least 2000 casters in the city. Since Waterdeep's population is 132,661, that puts casters at one in every 66 citizens.

All I'm saying here is that I think they could have an impact on industry, especially for high-end goods like plate armor that don't need to be mass-produced.

[Nifft]

I get your point, but I don't think that casters are quite as rare solar angles. Solar angles are common and reliable.

Citation:

https://i.imgur.com/58RJNOL.jpg



Take Waterdeep for example. We know that all wizards and sorcerers must Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors:

FR is a great example of a place where humans (and humanoids in general) just don't make sense.

The FR progenitor reptiles (e.g. the Sarrukh) were able to create arbitrarily powerful reptilian servitors, with arbitrary magical powers. Why is a city of humans even allowed to exist?

That's a setting where ONE Sarrukh could have created 10,000 Kobold demi-gods, each of whom can cast true creation at-will as a (Su) ability, and has more abilities in addition.

How does it make sense that humans got to create a dominant civilization -- with or without mundane crafters -- in that setting?


This is not a trick question.

There are valid reasons why human civilization is dominant, but those reasons tend to be about the audience of the product, not about the physics of the fiction.

[Psyren]

I've honestly never really found a plot line that I couldn't run in Points of Light (or pretty much any other Tippyverse setting for that matter).

----
The real issue with Fabricate vs. mundane crafters is use activated/command word items.

A command word item of fabricate costs 81,000 GP. Halve the price for being Wondrous Architecture and you are looking at 40,500 GP. Expensive but not too bad for a city and now you have the Plinth of Creation (or whatever) where the town/city/guild's craftsmen come and for a small fee they can place the necessary raw materials on the plinth, speak the command word, and instantly produce whatever they want.

Very few spells have much of an effect on the setting, but put almost any of those spells into items that can repeatedly cast them for no cost and even the most minor ones (and Fabricate isn't one of the most minor ones) can drastically change a setting.


More power to you and everything, but it seems to me that drastically changing a setting without drastically changing the stories you can tell there is at-will fabricating your cake (and infinite cake for all the citizens) and eating them too.

[DRD1812]

FR is a great example of a place where humans (and humanoids in general) just don't make sense.

The FR progenitor reptiles (e.g. the Sarrukh) were able to create arbitrarily powerful reptilian servitors, with arbitrary magical powers. Why is a city of humans even allowed to exist?

That's a setting where ONE Sarrukh could have created 10,000 Kobold demi-gods, each of whom can cast true creation at-will as a (Su) ability, and has more abilities in addition.

How does it make sense that humans got to create a dominant civilization -- with or without mundane crafters -- in that setting?


This is not a trick question.

There are valid reasons why human civilization is dominant, but those reasons tend to be about the audience of the product, not about the physics of the fiction.

Now this is fascinating stuff from a gave dev perspective. My thought is that the Sarrukh are not especially present in the fiction of the game. Not in the experienced game of the players rather than the sprawling lore of the world. It's easier to handwave something away when it's background knowledge that doesn't affect your current giant-slaying or mcgaffin-fetching quest. Fabricate is much closer to the day-to-day D&D of players than the Sarrukh, and so tends to get a lot more exposure to the, "Hey! This doesn't make sense!" treatment. That's not satisfying if you're trying to build a reasonable world, but it does seem to be the case: What is used most by the player is questioned more closely.

Out of curiosity, do you know of an IP with a thoroughly satisfying level of internal consistency?

[Tvtyrant]

Now this is fascinating stuff from a gave dev perspective. My thought is that the Sarrukh are not especially present in the fiction of the game. Not in the experienced game of the players rather than the sprawling lore of the world. It's easier to handwave something away when it's background knowledge that doesn't affect your current giant-slaying or mcgaffin-fetching quest. Fabricate is much closer to the day-to-day D&D of players than the Sarrukh, and so tends to get a lot more exposure to the, "Hey! This doesn't make sense!" treatment. That's not satisfying if you're trying to build a reasonable world, but it does seem to be the case: What is used most by the player is questioned more closely.

Out of curiosity, do you know of an IP with a thoroughly satisfying level of internal consistency?

Sanderson's Cosmere setting comes to mind.

[Yahzi]

I'm coming at this from a Pathfinder perspective, but the question applies to d20 in general. When someone can just cast fabricate and masterwork transformation, why are there still village blacksmiths? How do you justify that mess?

Relevant comic for reference (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/crafty-thief).
I answered all this in Merchants of Prime (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/218456/Merchants-of-Prime), but I use an odd (but incredibly helpful) house rule that XP is tangible. Thus peasants produce both crops and levels for the nobility. This keeps leveled people at 1-2% of the population and generally less than 5th level.

In other words... commoners are cheap. You can hire even a skilled guy for 100 gp a year.

[Jay R]

The world needs a lot of stuff, and there aren't that many powerful wizards who want to use their great power to live the life of a peasant making things for commoners.

[Climowitz]

Unseen crafter is a 2nd level spell that last 1 day/ caster level. With a custom magic item of unseen crafter at will you could make 6000 crafters a day that last at least 3 day just spending 10 hours on casting, you now own a global scale factory

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unseen crafter is a 2nd level spell that last 1 day/ caster level. With a custom magic item of unseen crafter at will you could make 6000 crafters a day that last at least 3 day just spending 10 hours on casting, you now own a global scale factory

Either still needs mundane crafting skill to function in itself or needs possessors of such skill to aid in its production before being deployed.

Either way, it justifies fewer mundane crafters not none at all.

[Jack_Simth]

Unseen crafter is a 2nd level spell that last 1 day/ caster level. With a custom magic item of unseen crafter at will you could make 6000 crafters a day that last at least 3 day just spending 10 hours on casting, you now own a global scale factory
Note: A "custom magic item" is not a given. Sure, the DMG has guidelines on them, but they're very clearly labeled as such. Even what made it into the SRD is listed that way - in The page in question (www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), the table is called "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values", and at the end of it you've got
Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

When it comes to at-will items that add value to other things in an Instantaneous manner? The "actual worth" of the item goes way, way up - if it's allowed at all. When it's part of world-building... sure. Then the DM is making use of it to make the desired campaign setting. But they really shouldn't be the default assumption.

[Jay R]

Unseen crafter is a 2nd level spell that last 1 day/ caster level. With a custom magic item of unseen crafter at will you could make 6000 crafters a day that last at least 3 day just spending 10 hours on casting, you now own a global scale factory

No, you now own the employees to run a global scale factory. From the description of the spell, "Appropriate tools and materials must be provided for the unseen crafter." You need to provide the tools and arrange for a consistent supply of materials, and you will soon have a huge number of items rotting in the rain. So now you need a warehouse to store them in, people to take the goods from the 6,000 unseen crafters to the warehouse, a delivery system to take them to your global markets, people to sell them, accountants to track the income, trusted guards to bring the money back from the global markets, etc.

In short, you have cleverly found a way to magically create the simplest and cheapest part of running a global scale factory.

Yes, each of these difficulties can be overcome, by a player who really wants to play Merchants and Markets. But the reality is that the wizard still has to do everything a factory owner or corporate CEO does. This is a full-time position; adventuring is over (except for occasional vacations). And also, since the crafter is one of the cheapest parts of a global business, your markup won't be 200%, most of what you are considering your profit is consuming in the storing, transporting, and sales of goods, and the accounting and security of the finances.

So yes, you're correct. With a uniquely designed and crafted magic item, a powerful wizard could stop pursuing the ultimate truths of the universe or being a successful and respected (or feared) powerful force in the world, and instead become an equally successful peasant shopkeeper.

[Jack_Simth]

No, you now own the employees to run a global scale factory. From the description of the spell, "Appropriate tools and materials must be provided for the unseen crafter." You need to provide the tools and arrange for a consistent supply of materials, and you will soon have a huge number of items rotting in the rain. So now you need a warehouse to store them in, people to take the goods from the 6,000 unseen crafters to the warehouse, a delivery system to take them to your global markets, people to sell them, accountants to track the income, trusted guards to bring the money back from the global markets, etc.

In short, you have cleverly found a way to magically create the simplest and cheapest part of running a global scale factory.

Yes, each of these difficulties can be overcome, by a player who really wants to play Merchants and Markets. But the reality is that the wizard still has to do everything a factory owner or corporate CEO does. This is a full-time position; adventuring is over (except for occasional vacations). And also, since the crafter is one of the cheapest parts of a global business, your markup won't be 200%, most of what you are considering your profit is consuming in the storing, transporting, and sales of goods, and the accounting and security of the finances.

So yes, you're correct. With a uniquely designed and crafted magic item, a powerful wizard could stop pursuing the ultimate truths of the universe or being a successful and respected (or feared) powerful force in the world, and instead become an equally successful peasant shopkeeper.

As an added "bonus": The unseen Crafter functions like Unseen Servant. Among other nuttiness, this means that it must remain within Close range of the caster. When using an item to cast the spell, that's not going to be much range. You'll need to sit there while the unseen crafter crafts, for the entirety of the days/level duration....

[Bucky]

I believe the answer is the "principle of comparative advantage".

Say you have a city of experts and a town of high level wizards. The experts have a lot of things they can do: write, farm, craft, carry. The wizards have spells to do all these things more cheaply. You might think the wizards end up doing everything for themselves and never trade with the experts.

What actually happens is the wizards are way better at some things than the experts, like transporting things over large distances and making wands. They're only somewhat better than the experts at some other things, like farming and crafting. Meanwhile, the experts do want wands and magic transportation.

So the experts end up trading their farming and crafting products for some wands. The wizards save their time and spell slots for things the experts just plain can't do. And everyone wins.

[unseenmage]

As an added "bonus": The unseen Crafter functions like Unseen Servant. Among other nuttiness, this means that it must remain within Close range of the caster. When using an item to cast the spell, that's not going to be much range. You'll need to sit there while the unseen crafter crafts, for the entirety of the days/level duration....

Unless the item casts the spell, eg an Intelligent Magic Item or a Runic Guardian.

[Jack_Simth]

Unless the item casts the spell, eg an Intelligent Magic Item or a Runic Guardian.
That's actually even worse, for a couple of reasons:
1) You have one anchor point. At your basic Spell Level 2 / Caster level 3, everything must be within 30 feet of the item.
2) Intelligent items tend to be extra expensive.
3) Items have low ability scores by default, and seldom have ranks (so that default widget would be operating with a +1 craft bonus).

Also: A Runic Guardian isn't good for mass production. You're only getting castings/day out of one.

[Cosi]

I believe the answer is the "principle of comparative advantage".

Yes.

It amazes me how many people try to talk about the economics of the game without considering how economics actually works. The effect of fabricate will be to drive down the prices of goods efficiently created by fabricate (generally, things that have very dense raw materials), which will cause mundane crafters to pivot to things that are not efficiently created by fabricate. How much this occurs depends on how many people are casting fabricate, and whether there are goods where mundane crafters are flatly more efficient (which is possible if we assume all the casters have some kind of daily limit).

[Jay R]

Unless the item casts the spell, eg an Intelligent Magic Item or a Runic Guardian.

OK. In that case, instead of all the crafters having to be within 25 feet + 5 feet / 2 levels of the caster, they all have to fit within 25 feet + 5 feet / 2 levels of the item.

Assume that you need 5x10 feet of space for each worker. [Remember that this includes aisles for other workers to bring them materials to work, and to pick up their product to warehouse it. It also includes room for the forges, looms, workbenches, or whatever tools and workspaces they need.]

Now, if the wizard (or item) is tenth level, then all the crafters must fit in a 50 foot radius, for a total of 7,853 square feet. Call it a maximum of about 157 unseen crafters.

Then you need to build a network to transport and sell the output of 157 workers, which of course cuts into your profit margin.

Also for the (minimum) 36,000 gp that the item costs, you could hire 157 crafters for over a year and a half. (for smiths) or two tears (for other crafters). Until you run the factory for longer than that, it's more expensive than doing it the mundane way.

It's a great way to make something for yourself pretty quickly, but it's not a great get rich scheme.

A tenth level wizard can make far more money (and gain xp while doing it) by adventuring instead of running this factory.

And the adventuring game is more fun.

[unseenmage]

OK. In that case, instead of all the crafters having to be within 25 feet + 5 feet / 2 levels of the caster, they all have to fit within 25 feet + 5 feet / 2 levels of the item.

Assume that you need 5x10 feet of space for each worker. [Remember that this includes aisles for other workers to bring them materials to work, and to pick up their product to warehouse it. It also includes room for the forges, looms, workbenches, or whatever tools and workspaces they need.]

Now, if the wizard (or item) is tenth level, then all the crafters must fit in a 50 foot radius, for a total of 7,853 square feet. Call it a maximum of about 157 unseen crafters.

Then you need to build a network to transport and sell the output of 157 workers, which of course cuts into your profit margin.

Also for the (minimum) 36,000 gp that the item costs, you could hire 157 crafters for over a year and a half. (for smiths) or two tears (for other crafters). Until you run the factory for longer than that, it's more expensive than doing it the mundane way.

It's a great way to make something for yourself pretty quickly, but it's not a great get rich scheme.

A tenth level wizard can make far more money (and gain xp while doing it) by adventuring instead of running this factory.

And the adventuring game is more fun.

Somewhere for mass Shrink Item effects to shine?

[Jay R]

Somewhere for mass Shrink Item effects to shine?

Yes, of course. A great wizard could use more and more magical effects to duplicate the work of peasants, for not much more profit than peasants get.

I'm not going to waste my time calculating the cost of enough mass Shrink Item effects to greatly increase the output of the factory, given that it's already producing far more than you can sell in a single village, town, or city. You still need to build the transportation network - which might then include the cost of mass Teleport effects.

My main point, which seems to be the one nobody wants to consider, remains, the same. The plan is to use expensive, powerful magics to duplicate the work of cheaply-hired peasants, in order to turn a great power into a shop-keeper. Why?

I repeat:


For the same reason that CEOs, Senators, and other rich and powerful people don't hire themselves out on the weekends to mow lawns or work in grocery stores.

Rich, high-class, high-level people don't do cheap, low-class work.


The world needs a lot of stuff, and there aren't that many powerful wizards who want to use their great power to live the life of a peasant making things for commoners.


So yes, you're correct. With a uniquely designed and crafted magic item, a powerful wizard could stop pursuing the ultimate truths of the universe or being a successful and respected (or feared) powerful force in the world, and instead become an equally successful peasant shopkeeper.


It's a great way to make something for yourself pretty quickly, but it's not a great get rich scheme.

A tenth level wizard can make far more money (and gain xp while doing it) by adventuring instead of running this factory.

And the adventuring game is more fun.

Why? Why would a player want to break the cool adventuring game to make a less intriguing shop-keeping factory owner game?

[unseenmage]

Yes, of course. A great wizard could use more and more magical effects to duplicate the work of peasants, for not much more profit than peasants get.

I'm not going to waste my time calculating the cost of enough mass Shrink Item effects to greatly increase the output of the factory, given that it's already producing far more than you can sell in a single village, town, or city. You still need to build the transportation network - which might then include the cost of mass Teleport effects.

My main point, which seems to be the one nobody wants to consider, remains, the same. The plan is to use expensive, powerful magics to duplicate the work of cheaply-hired peasants, in order to turn a great power into a shop-keeper. Why?

I repeat:









Why? Why would a player want to break the cool adventuring game to make a less intriguing shop-keeping factory owner game?
Because after a spellcaster gets strong enough that someone half their strength can do it the entire process is just one Simulacrum spell away?

Maybe their grandchildren showed no magical aptitude and they want to provide for their descendants?

Maybe they're just magically supercharged fo gooders who don't like to watch as others starve?

Why wouldn't you automate post scarcity given the chance?

[Psyren]

Maybe they're just magically supercharged fo gooders who don't like to watch as others starve?

Why wouldn't you automate post scarcity given the chance?

That is certainly a thing one could try to do. But doing so would, effectively, be trying to render deities of concepts like famine, entropy and strife obsolete. You'd probably attract the wrong kind of attention very quickly.

[Cosi]

That is certainly a thing one could try to do. But doing so would, effectively, be trying to render deities of concepts like famine, entropy and strife obsolete. You'd probably attract the wrong kind of attention very quickly.

This is either not a reason to stop (the god of famine is someone who should be violently murdered), or bad DMing (if the plan is simply to say "you get ganked by unkillably powerful servants of the god of famine"). Neither of those seems terribly compelling as a reason to not go ahead with your plan to not let people starve to death.

[Jay R]

Because after a spellcaster gets strong enough that someone half their strength can do it the entire process is just one Simulacrum spell away?

One simulacrum spell creates one creature. It doesn't replace hundreds of workers. It also costs a minimum of 1,000 XP.


Maybe their grandchildren showed no magical aptitude and they want to provide for their descendants?

By turning them into shop-keeping peasants instead of conquering land and making them rich nobles? Don't be silly.


Maybe they're just magically supercharged fo gooders who don't like to watch as others starve?

My point is that hiring farmers works just as well, and leaves the PCs free to stop the invading ogres (which is what supercharged do-gooders tend to do).


Why wouldn't you automate post scarcity given the chance?

You can't automate it; it's much bigger than a few spells. And all of it is easier to do by hiring people.

[Also, economics doesn't work that way. The current price is based on the current scarcity as much as on the current demand. Swamp the market, and the price you can sell it for goes down. But it still costs you just as much to make it, ship it, and find customers. So very quickly you can't make money at it. That's not post scarcity; it's scarcity at a different equilibrium point.]

But mostly, you didn't address my question, which I will repeat:


Why? Why would a player want to break the cool adventuring game to make a less intriguing shop-keeping factory owner game?

"Hey, everybody, the red dragon to the north is ravaging the countryside. Let's go defeat it, save hundreds of lives, seize its hoard, go up a level, and claim its lair as a place to build a castle."
"No thanks, I'd rather run a factory, build a transportation network, and find customers, in order to get no experience, much less money, and no other loot."

[unseenmage]

One simulacrum spell creates one creature. It doesn't replace hundreds of workers. It also costs a minimum of 1,000 XP.

...

Then make a Spell Clock/Magic Trap/Int Magic Item that repeatedly makes the appropriate Simulacrum.
Then each of those is a sapient repository of daily spell allotments.
Definitely takes a very powerful spellcaster, but that's the point. Eventually somebody sonewhere gets strong enough to solve hunger/homelessness/poverty on a massive scale literally without breaking a sweat.



But mostly, you didn't address my question, which I will repeat:


Why? Why would a player want to break the cool adventuring game to make a less intriguing shop-keeping factory owner game?

"Hey, everybody, the red dragon to the north is ravaging the countryside. Let's go defeat it, save hundreds of lives, seize its hoard, go up a level, and claim its lair as a place to build a castle."
"No thanks, I'd rather run a factory, build a transportation network, and find customers, in order to get no experience, much less money, and no other loot."

Because character motivations are as varied and diverse as those of the players who run them and other folk aren't having fun wrong?

Because nominally the alignment system acts as a swell justification for just doing good for goodness sakes?

Because solving world hunger is more important than slaying dragons to a character who was impoverished as an orphan child?



And where is it written that overcoming economic/management challenges doesn't' grant xp?
It isn't that's where. Xp gain only requires that one overcome 'appropriate challenges'. That's it.

[Psyren]

Because character motivations are as varied and diverse as those of the players who run them and other folk aren't having fun wrong?

Because nominally the alignment system acts as a swell justification for just doing good for goodness sakes?

Because solving world hunger is more important than slaying dragons to a character who was impoverished as an orphan child?

Nobody is saying you're having fun wrong. The beauty of 3e is that you can run the game that suits you, even if that game is closer to being Stardew Valley or Factorio than anything with hacking and slashing. But what you're proposing might be wrong for a default setting. A world without scarcity or unfairness has very little need for heroes after all.

[unseenmage]

Nobody is saying you're having fun wrong. The beauty of 3e is that you can run the game that suits you, even if that game is closer to being Stardew Valley or Factorio than anything with hacking and slashing. But what you're proposing might be wrong for a default setting. A world without scarcity or unfairness has very little need for heroes after all.

Which is the point. Analagously a world with post scarcity enabling mechanics also has scarce need for heroes or adventure, insofar as those adventures involve scarce resources of basically any kind.

[Cosi]

One simulacrum spell creates one creature. It doesn't replace hundreds of workers. It also costs a minimum of 1,000 XP.

Not if you have a Mirror Mephit familiar. Or use a Thought Bottle. Or use the Archmage's SLA class feature + Supernatural Transformation. XP costs are not real costs for optimized characters. Also, if you can make a simulacrum that can itself cast simulacrum (which, though difficult, is not impossible), you can make as many simulacra as you want.


By turning them into shop-keeping peasants instead of conquering land and making them rich nobles? Don't be silly.

"The danger of a coup is that it implies there could be another coup."

If you give your children something taken by force of arms, what stops them from losing it to someone else with greater military might?


My point is that hiring farmers works just as well, and leaves the PCs free to stop the invading ogres (which is what supercharged do-gooders tend to do).

Yes, because no one would ever consider fighting disease or raising standards of living good. The guy who invented the polio vaccine? Clearly Evil. Neutral at best. If he wanted to do good, he should have enlisted in the army instead of working in medicine.


[Also, economics doesn't work that way. The current price is based on the current scarcity as much as on the current demand. Swamp the market, and the price you can sell it for goes down. But it still costs you just as much to make it, ship it, and find customers. So very quickly you can't make money at it. That's not post scarcity; it's scarcity at a different equilibrium point.]

Why are you putting the only point you've made that is actually good in an aside?


Nobody is saying you're having fun wrong.

That does seem to be what Jay R is saying. He certainly seems to be claiming that playing Logistics and Dragons is unsatisfying and you should therefore not do it. Not that he doesn't enjoy it, that (and I quote):


break the cool adventuring game to make a less intriguing shop-keeping factory owner game


But what you're proposing might be wrong for a default setting. A world without scarcity or unfairness has very little need for heroes after all.

I'm pretty sure Ian Banks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_series) would disagree rather strongly with that particular claim. But even if we believe that a post-scarcity society has nothing to do, it's hard to see how "manufacturing is closer to modern levels of efficiency" results in a world with no adventures to have. Do you think our world doesn't have any problems you could solve with a team of superheroes?

[Psyren]

Which is the point. Analagously a world with post scarcity enabling mechanics also has scarce need for heroes or adventure, insofar as those adventures involve scarce resources of basically any kind.

Most do. Think about it - if everyone is well off, why would you need treasure, or power? Why would antagonists hoard it, and even if they did so anyway, why would anyone care?

I'm not telling you your preferred playstyle is badwrongfun. I'm just explaining why the current status quo made sense (to arrive at) and why it may continue to make sense (in spite of whatever magical 'remedies' might exist.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Most do. Think about it - if everyone is well off, why would you need treasure, or power? Why would antagonists hoard it, and even if they did so anyway, why would anyone care?

Because technology and biology move at absurdly different paces and while people are rarely irrational, almost no one is always rational either.

Just because the real need to horde resources is gone doesn't mean the urge to do so goes away. When you combine this fact with the human tendency to yield to their urges unless given a compelling reason to resist them and the inherent tendency to stratify into hierarchies, it's not at all difficult to imagine people being motivated to continue acting like the hairless apes we actually are.

Even after enough time has passed (many, many generations btw) that actual, physical resources are no longer the status markers of choice, people will have simply shifted to something less tangible.

[Psyren]

Because technology and biology move at absurdly different paces and while people are rarely irrational, almost no one is always rational either.

In this case though it wouldn't even be mostly rational. If that appeals to you, go for it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In this case though it wouldn't even be mostly rational. If that appeals to you, go for it.

The full truism is "people are rarely truly irrational, just wrong."

The value that would continue to be assigned to real goods would still have a certain rationale behind assigning that value, it'd just be wrong on a fundamental level. There are any number of political and/ or religious philosophies that have the same problem, this is no different.

[Psyren]

There are any number of political and/ or religious philosophies that have the same problem, this is no different.

I'm not sure what philosophy has to do with actually infinite material goods but okay, sure.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not sure what philosophy has to do with actually infinite material goods but okay, sure.

It's not about the goods. It's about how people -think- about the goods.

[unseenmage]

It's not about the goods. It's about how people -think- about the goods.

Remember too, the gameworld isn't solely populated by what we would call "people".

Many non-human ideologies, physiologies. phsychologies (mostly alignment oriented as well) contort the potentiality for extrapolations based on the human norm.

[Psyren]

It's not about the goods. It's about how people -think- about the goods.

On that much we agree. I just don't see how you can then conclude that infinite goods are thought of the same way as scarce ones.


Remember too, the gameworld isn't solely populated by what we would call "people".

Many non-human ideologies, physiologies. phsychologies (mostly alignment oriented as well) contort the potentiality for extrapolations based on the human norm.

But that's my point exactly. The conceit of most D&D settings (including the core one) is that the forces dedicated to evil and entropy vastly outnumber the ones dedicated to equity and righteousness. That's why we need not only heroes, but also even other fiends to keep those forces in some semblance of check. And I haven't even gotten to the thankfully uncaring horrors bumming around the Far.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Remember too, the gameworld isn't solely populated by what we would call "people".

Many non-human ideologies, physiologies. phsychologies (mostly alignment oriented as well) contort the potentiality for extrapolations based on the human norm.

There are some sapient, even hyper-intelligent creatures that could certainly be considered something other than people but there are far, far more that would be best described as peoples that vary from the human norms far more than any human population even could, much less ever have. This -certainly- complicates the issue but I seriously doubt that it does much to allay the problem I've outlined. It seems to me that it's more likely to exacerbate it.

In-group/ out-group dynamics amongst humans get pretty nasty when we're all basically the same. I shudder to think how much worse they could get with creatures as genuinely -different- as the various humanoid races.

There's really no shortage of angles for conflict in a world where basic material scarcity isn't an issue.


On that much we agree. I just don't see how you can then conclude that infinite goods are thought of the same way as scarce ones.

Have you ever read the stories of people who win a massive lottery? Their financial situation changes utterly and fundamentally yet they continue to think of money as they did before.

It's the same thing, writ large across the entire world. The early period after the zero-point will be utter chaos as the foundations of civilization and the structures built upon those foundations are inescapably rattled. It'll settle into -something- eventually but who knows how long it'll take or what the shape of if that eventuality will be?

[Psyren]

Have you ever read the stories of people who win a massive lottery? Their financial situation changes utterly and fundamentally yet they continue to think of money as they did before.

...What? Yes I have, and winning the lottery doesn't eliminate scarcity. Indeed, the conflict of such stories usually comes as a cautionary tale from the money running out too fast, or from the greed of others (often friends and family) foiling the winner. Both of which are impossible if the money is infinite for everyone.

[Kelb_Panthera]

...What? Yes I have, and winning the lottery doesn't eliminate scarcity. Indeed, the conflict of such stories usually comes as a cautionary tale from the money running out too fast, or from the greed of others (often friends and family) foiling the winner. Both of which are impossible if the money is infinite for everyone.

Again, my point is not about the actual material circumstance. It's about how people's modes of thought are slow to change in the case of rapidly changing or changed circumstance.

If those people could've adjusted to suddenly having their material circumstances change that dramatically, it could've easily lasted the rest of their lives. They either couldn't or simply didn't change how they thought about those resources. Increasing the actual value of the resources to infinity doesn't change that, it just prevents the resources from running out. They'll -still- think of it like they did when it was limited.

A certain degree of intellect or wisdom is needed to make that adjustment and it doesn't seem, to me at least, that this is common amongst humanity. Some people, sure. Enough to keep society from being absolutely upended by the sudden introduction of limitless resources of any kind, I very seriously doubt it.

[Jack_Simth]

A certain degree of intellect or wisdom is needed to make that adjustment and it doesn't seem, to me at least, that this is common amongst humanity. Some people, sure. Enough to keep society from being absolutely upended by the sudden introduction of limitless resources of any kind, I very seriously doubt it.
Wouldn't that depend on the person doling out the unlimited resources? Handle it over the course of a few generations, slowly upping things, and the grandkids don't think the same way about the resource as the grandparents.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wouldn't that depend on the person doling out the unlimited resources? Handle it over the course of a few generations, slowly upping things, and the grandkids don't think the same way about the resource as the grandparents.

How long before the guy who appears to be hoarding the resources gets called a tyrant and has hitters on his doorstep? Not long, I suspect.

Like I said, it'll eventually settle into something but there's a -lot- that can go wrong on the way and Murphy's Law is not a wholly inaccurate observation.

[Jack_Simth]

How long before the guy who appears to be hoarding the resources gets called a tyrant and has hitters on his doorstep? Not long, I suspect.
If this is a serious problem: How then, do rich folks exist presently?

Just don't make it clear that your production is, in fact, essentially unlimited. Take the Wizard with the Mirror Memphit familiar who's done a few tricks to get the caster level up (retrain one of the familiar's feats to Practiced Spellcaster, maybe). Theoretically, the Wizard could have the Mirror Memphit mass-produce sims via mass-producing sims of itself the first day in a great big chain. However: If the wizard simply has it produce one sim every so often, directly? It's not on-the-ground infinite, it's slowly increased production. That will slowly drive whatever good the sims are making into valuelessness by flooding the market - at whatever pace the Wizard wants.

[Nifft]

If this is a serious problem: How then, do rich folks exist presently?

Like this: https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/19/14327854/mark-zuckerberg-facebook-hawaii-kauai-property-lawsuits

On the mainland with a private army, like this: http://www.mountainliving.com/Homes/Take-a-Look-at-Bill-Kochs-100-Million-Aspen-Compound/

[Jack_Simth]

Like this: https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/19/14327854/mark-zuckerberg-facebook-hawaii-kauai-property-lawsuits

On the mainland with a private army, like this: http://www.mountainliving.com/Homes/Take-a-Look-at-Bill-Kochs-100-Million-Aspen-Compound/

It was a rhetorical question directed at Kelb_Panthera's "How long before the guy who appears to be hoarding the resources gets called a tyrant and has hitters on his doorstep? Not long, I suspect" comment. If whatever phrasing of "people will use force to take stuff from the guy who has in excess" was an insurmountable problem, then mega rich folks could not exist. Yet they do. Ergo, it's a surmountable problem (of some unspecified degree of difficulty) rather than an insurmountable problem. It's an evidence against Kelb_Panthera's own rhetorical question, done in a similar manner.

[Nifft]

It was a rhetorical question directed at Kelb_Panthera's "How long before the guy who appears to be hoarding the resources gets called a tyrant and has hitters on his doorstep? Not long, I suspect" comment. If whatever phrasing of "people will use force to take stuff from the guy who has in excess" was an insurmountable problem, then mega rich folks could not exist. Yet they do. Ergo, it's a surmountable problem (of some unspecified degree of difficulty) rather than an insurmountable problem. It's an evidence against Kelb_Panthera's own rhetorical question, done in a similar manner.

Mobs of people have historically used force to take stuff from other people who were perceived as having excess.

In retrospect, sometimes this will be seen as justice; other times, it's blatantly just mob violence.

It's a fact that current rich people still undertake rather extreme measures to avoid the threat of contact with the poor. So the idea that you can surmount the problem of behaving like a hoarder-tyrant seems to be supported (except when it's not and you get executed by some Robespierre expy), but also supported is the idea that people will indeed attempt to show up on your doorstep and use force to obtain fairness / justice / wealth-by-level.


tl;dr - People do seem to try to topple resource-hoarding tyrants. Sometimes they succeed. You're posing a false binary.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If this is a serious problem: How then, do rich folks exist presently?

They exist presently in a system where the rule of law takes precedent over much of human behavior and states have the monopoly on force. Even so, the last century was painted red with the blood of the wealthy (and even the slightly-better-off-than-average) being deposed as tyrants across much of the world. Resentment of those who have by those who have not is a very powerful motivator.


Just don't make it clear that your production is, in fact, essentially unlimited. Take the Wizard with the Mirror Memphit familiar who's done a few tricks to get the caster level up (retrain one of the familiar's feats to Practiced Spellcaster, maybe). Theoretically, the Wizard could have the Mirror Memphit mass-produce sims via mass-producing sims of itself the first day in a great big chain. However: If the wizard simply has it produce one sim every so often, directly? It's not on-the-ground infinite, it's slowly increased production. That will slowly drive whatever good the sims are making into valuelessness by flooding the market - at whatever pace the Wizard wants.

Keeping that a secret for any length of time will be, at best, very difficult and competitors won't be willing to just take it lying down. They have every motivation to find out how you're doing it and to put a stop to it, if they can.



To be clear; the rules of the game do very much make it possible to achieve post-scarcity societies. What they don't do is guarantee that the transition to, or final state of those post scarcity societies will be any kind of smooth or fair. To expect such is, at best, extraordinarily optimistic or, at worst, extraordinarily naive.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

It was a rhetorical question directed at Kelb_Panthera's "How long before the guy who appears to be hoarding the resources gets called a tyrant and has hitters on his doorstep? Not long, I suspect" comment. If whatever phrasing of "people will use force to take stuff from the guy who has in excess" was an insurmountable problem, then mega rich folks could not exist. Yet they do. Ergo, it's a surmountable problem (of some unspecified degree of difficulty) rather than an insurmountable problem. It's an evidence against Kelb_Panthera's own rhetorical question, done in a similar manner.

Plus the rich person in this scenario is (presumably) a wizard PC of reasonably high level.

[Psyren]

People do seem to try to topple resource-hoarding tyrants.

The problem is that we don't have any post-scarcity mobs to use as examples. Unless we're saying the infinite creation spell-traps are only owned by the elite few, which could happen, but doesn't fit Tippyverse by my understanding.

[Jack_Simth]

Mobs of people have historically used force to take stuff from other people who were perceived as having excess.

In retrospect, sometimes this will be seen as justice; other times, it's blatantly just mob violence.

It's a fact that current rich people still undertake rather extreme measures to avoid the threat of contact with the poor. So the idea that you can surmount the problem of behaving like a hoarder-tyrant seems to be supported (except when it's not and you get executed by some Robespierre expy), but also supported is the idea that people will indeed attempt to show up on your doorstep and use force to obtain fairness / justice / wealth-by-level.


tl;dr - People do seem to try to topple resource-hoarding tyrants. Sometimes they succeed. You're posing a false binary.
Who's talking binary? You'll also notice I did not call it a "non issue"? I explicitly called it a "surmountable problem (of some unspecified degree of difficulty)" - there are people who have the problem of being "big haves", that still have their wealth; we have an example of people succeeding at the problem of maintaining their wealth in the face of people who don't believe they should have it. Therefore, the problem can be overcome. I also called it "unspecified degree of difficulty". There are different strategies, depending on resources (both own and opposed) and situations. For some, controlling the narrative is the solution of choice. For others, forting up. Sometimes secrecy and proxies. Some arrange the surrounding situation to be favorable to them. I'm sure some just got lucky. Yeah, sometimes the big haves lose: It's not a sure game (whether that's because they don't always have a path to victory or because they don't always make a correct choice is up to historians to debate). But they also often win for a long, long time. So it can be won. There's enough rich people in the world at the moment that I'm going to call it not a particularly serious problem. One that needs to be prepared for? Sure. A normal person prepares for getting ill (sick leave at work, savings, a second income in the household, et cetera), getting laid off (savings, a second income in the household, unemployment insurance, et cetera), getting wrecking a vehicle (second vehicle, savings, knowing the bus route between home and work, et cetera), and so on. A fabulously wealthy person who is also wise (NOT ALL ARE!!!) prepares for famine, war, changes to the underpinnings of the current economic situation, and so on. How do they do it? I don't know; I'm not one of them. But such folk have persisted despite famines, wars, changing economic underpinnings, and so on. Which makes it obvious that it's a problem that can be overcome.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The problem is that we don't have any post-scarcity mobs to use as examples. Unless we're saying the infinite creation spell-traps are only owned by the elite few, which could happen, but doesn't fit Tippyverse by my understanding.

Until -everyone- has free access to the unlimited resources, it's not a post scarcity society yet. It's an artificial scarcity society. There will be people that try to stall things at that level to hold power over others. The stage of Tippyverse development that you're thinking of is actually pretty late stage. It's gotta get there by going through the prior stages from the creation of the game-world itself, through the development of the necessary magical techniques to make the traps and the spells involved, then the combining of those techniques into scarcity elimination ability, through the execution of reaching post-scarcity, and finally to the tippyverse proper.

After they reach the point that everyone has everything they'll ever need and can access it freely, that particular angle of conflict goes away once people adjust to the fact that material goods no longer have value. There -will- be a period in between scarcity ending and people understanding that material goods have no value and are still adjusting that will be tumultuous for one reason or other.

For instance, the institutions that stand to protect peoples' resources suddenly have no reason to exist and everyone involved in those areas suddenly have to find a new place in society. Given that violence is part-and-parcel to that task, some of them will turn those skills on innocents either out of frustration, at the behest of leaders with designs on power in the new system, or towards carving out their own chunk of the new power structures.

Even after -all- of that is sorted, people will still be in conflict over more abstract issues.

[Psyren]

Until -everyone- has free access to the unlimited resources, it's not a post scarcity society yet. It's an artificial scarcity society.

Yeah, that's exactly my point?



There -will- be a period in between scarcity ending and people understanding that material goods have no value and are still adjusting that will be tumultuous for one reason or other.

For instance, the institutions that stand to protect peoples' resources suddenly have no reason to exist and everyone involved in those areas suddenly have to find a new place in society. Given that violence is part-and-parcel to that task, some of them will turn those skills on innocents either out of frustration, at the behest of leaders with designs on power in the new system, or towards carving out their own chunk of the new power structures.

Even after -all- of that is sorted, people will still be in conflict over more abstract issues.

This is not just irrational, it strikes me as ephemeral at best. "We don't need security guards anymore, so they will turn their guns on the populace" just does not follow any train of logic I can fathom, and even if it did, it would last exactly as long as it would take for the citizens to bury them in unlimited loaves of bread.

[unseenmage]

Until -everyone- has free access to the unlimited resources, it's not a post scarcity society yet. It's an artificial scarcity society. There will be people that try to stall things at that level to hold power over others. The stage of Tippyverse development that you're thinking of is actually pretty late stage. It's gotta get there by going through the prior stages from the creation of the game-world itself, through the development of the necessary magical techniques to make the traps and the spells involved, then the combining of those techniques into scarcity elimination ability, through the execution of reaching post-scarcity, and finally to the tippyverse proper.

After they reach the point that everyone has everything they'll ever need and can access it freely, that particular angle of conflict goes away once people adjust to the fact that material goods no longer have value. There -will- be a period in between scarcity ending and people understanding that material goods have no value and are still adjusting that will be tumultuous for one reason or other.

For instance, the institutions that stand to protect peoples' resources suddenly have no reason to exist and everyone involved in those areas suddenly have to find a new place in society. Given that violence is part-and-parcel to that task, some of them will turn those skills on innocents either out of frustration, at the behest of leaders with designs on power in the new system, or towards carving out their own chunk of the new power structures.

Even after -all- of that is sorted, people will still be in conflict over more abstract issues.

In agreement with all of the above.

To my mind the goal becomes, for those true post scarcity minded characters, to get from scarcity through tumultuous almost scarcity as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Makes me wonder how best to automate delivery of appropriate volume of resources en masse...

[Jack_Simth]

They exist presently in a system where the rule of law takes precedent over much of human behavior and states have the monopoly on force. Even so, the last century was painted red with the blood of the wealthy (and even the slightly-better-off-than-average) being deposed as tyrants across much of the world. Resentment of those who have by those who have not is a very powerful motivator.
I didn't call it a "non issue", you'll note.


Keeping that a secret for any length of time will be, at best, very difficult and competitors won't be willing to just take it lying down. They have every motivation to find out how you're doing it and to put a stop to it, if they can.
Great. Given the end game of "post-scarcity" for all things currently scare, that actually poses a nifty little solution:
Trick them into using your trick. If you guard the secret of how you do mass production in such a way that it's hard to sneak in and copy, but easier to copy than to end, then your competitors will often end up out producing you just a little... and if you have more than one, they'll get into a production war with each other....

But no, it wouldn't be easy.

[unseenmage]

Back to the OP's query, mundane crafters will still exist because creativity isn't mass produced.

Each NPC should have their own unique personality, soul, and sense of creativity.

Even in a post scarcity world truly creative artists should still find their niche.

EDIT Though I imagine one could share that unique soul with the world in a sense via Simulacrum copies.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, that's exactly my point?



This is not just irrational, it strikes me as ephemeral at best. "We don't need security guards anymore, so they will turn their guns on the populace" just does not follow any train of logic I can fathom, and even if it did, it would last exactly as long as it would take for the citizens to bury them in unlimited loaves of bread.

The key word there was "some." Even the most universal of human behaviors isn't 100% universal. Normal people can easily become pathological when faced with the right stressors. Everything you've worked to be for your entire adult life being suddenly completely invalidated is a hell of a stressor.

Some will become pathological and kill themselves, some will become pathological as I described above, and some will successfully adjust. The exact breakdown is hard to pinpoint without a lot more information but security sector workers will hardly be the only ones to which this applies, just the most dangerous.

If you can't think of why people would still conflict with one another, absent the need to procure basic resources, I can't help you to understand what I'm talking about. All I can say is that materialism does not exhaust the spectrum of human motivations.

[Psyren]

I have no doubt that some people would (however inexplicably) go crazy post-scarcity, just like some people are crazy now. But I just don't see it being widespread or lasting enough to base a setting's entire conflict around. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

[tomandtish]

Back to the OP's query, mundane crafters will still exist because creativity isn't mass produced.

Each NPC should have their own unique personality, soul, and sense of creativity.

Even in a post scarcity world truly creative artists should still find their niche.

EDIT Though I imagine one could share that unique soul with the world in a sense via Simulacrum copies.

This is a key point though....

Take Star Trek. You have replicators that can produce food and wine, so why would anyone run a vineyard or become a chef? Because there's still always going to be a room for the difference between the average and the outstanding. A replicator can make a jambalaya, but it can't duplicate the nuanced flavors of Joseph Sisko's jambalaya. It can make a bottle of Bordeaux, but can't replicate the subtle notes of a 2285 Picard Bordeaux...

[Jay R]

In any universe I run, rich and powerful people feel superior to low-class crafters and farmers, and don't want to do low-class work.

And they don't feel the need to take work away from those people.

Yes, certainly, a high-level Good priest will create food for people during a famine, but she won't try to replace those people, for the same reason great industrialists and politicians don't quit those positions and take minimum wage service jobs.

[unseenmage]

In any universe I run, rich and powerful people feel superior to low-class crafters and farmers, and don't want to do low-class work.

And they don't feel the need to take work away from those people.

Yes, certainly, a high-level Good priest will create food for people during a famine, but she won't try to replace those people, for the same reason great industrialists and politicians don't quit those positions and take minimum wage service jobs.
Part of the point of the thread though is that with high enough level spellcaster replacing the laborers isn't a change in careers, it's just a spell away.

Simulacrums, Spell Clocks, Resetting Magic Traps, Spellscribed undead... the list of ways to repeatedly unendingly make mundane labor obsolete goes on and on.

[Jay R]

Part of the point of the thread though is that with high enough level spellcaster replacing the laborers isn't a change in careers, it's just a spell away.

Simulacrums, Spell Clocks, Resetting Magic Traps, Spellscribed undead... the list of ways to repeatedly unendingly make mundane labor obsolete goes on and on.

How does the wizard find all those customers? How did he get his wares to the customers? How did he collect the money and get it back to his keeping? How does he make sure others aren't stealing his stuff and selling it at exorbitant prices?

Even with magically automated production, the actual decisions and planning behind running a continent-wide network is a full-time job.

And are there any players who would rather design a network of transporters and shopkeepers than slay dragons?

[SwordChucks]

And are there any players who would rather design a network of transporters and shopkeepers than slay dragons?

Yes, I would enjoy that and it's not like I couldn't go out and slay dragons as a hobby.

[Psyren]

And are there any players who would rather design a network of transporters and shopkeepers than slay dragons?

Well, there are at least some as this thread can attest. I maintain that there are probably better systems out there to play Spell Trap Tycoon in, but 3.x can do it.

But the question being asked in the thread is not "can 3.x do this?" The answer to that question is obviously yes. The question being asked is "why do the default settings have blacksmiths/mundane crafters?" And the answer is that these settings are catering primarily to the players who want to slay dragons (among other things) as the primary activity, not as a side-gig in between building their post-scarcity conglomerates. And so for me, the interesting question is not what are all the magnificent ways we can subvert those settings away from their intended design, but rather what kinds of extranormal obstacles can prevent such utopias from being established, leading to the banditry, treasure hunts, and dragon fights (out of necessity for many) that we know and love.

[Jay R]

The question being asked is "why do the default settings have blacksmiths/mundane crafters?"

Oh. Well, the answer to that is that the original role-playing game was attempting to simulate classic fantasy set in a medieval world. And crafts, commerce, and culture were more-or-less patterned on medieval Europe.

Modern D&D has created its own kind of D&D universe, in which most medieval ideas have been tossed by the wayside because many modern players aren't here to simulate a medieval-based world. But that was the original goal, and a lot of aspects are still there.

For many of us who've been playing since the 1970s, the idea that any supremely powerful person would voluntarily do "tradesman's work" is one of these alien intrusions. Of course, for a modern player with no attachment to the idea of a medieval European culture, there's no problem with it.

[unseenmage]

How does the wizard find all those customers? How did he get his wares to the customers? How did he collect the money and get it back to his keeping? How does he make sure others aren't stealing his stuff and selling it at exorbitant prices?

Even with magically automated production, the actual decisions and planning behind running a continent-wide network is a full-time job.

...

The wizard doesn't. Their Simulacrum or bound outsider or what have you takes care of it for them. Repeatably. Unendingly.




As I mentioned earlier, creativity is one of those few things that RAW cannot replace. For all the settings I know of souls and minds and by extension the unique qualities pertaining to such are irreplacable.
You might be able to create copies of an artist but if is doubtful those copies will be individually differently creative.


Another thought I had was the idea that if magic is used to modify an artist's tools such that everything they create is mechanically masterwork that then frees the artist to focus on the beauty of their creation instead of its function.


Another interesting side effect of pseudo industrialized magical production is that where actual industry produces refuse as waste, a magical creation-of-final-product-from-nothing production creates excess finished products instead.
Which I like as the reason why so many gameworlds are chock full of magic items just littering encounters.

I imagine that these settings had in their pasts gotten to some stage or another of post scarcity magical production before something happened.

[Cosi]

The question being asked is "why do the default settings have blacksmiths/mundane crafters?" And the answer is that these settings are catering primarily to the players who want to slay dragons (among other things) as the primary activity, not as a side-gig in between building their post-scarcity conglomerates. And so for me, the interesting question is not what are all the magnificent ways we can subvert those settings away from their intended design, but rather what kinds of extranormal obstacles can prevent such utopias from being established, leading to the banditry, treasure hunts, and dragon fights (out of necessity for many) that we know and love.

Yeah, the answer to that is really simple: you write better rules. That is the only way to solve problems with the rules (such as "the rules don't produce the setting we want"). The alternative suggested in this thread of being a passive aggressive ******* to the rest of your gaming group just makes you a bad person.


For many of us who've been playing since the 1970s, the idea that any supremely powerful person would voluntarily do "tradesman's work" is one of these alien intrusions. Of course, for a modern player with no attachment to the idea of a medieval European culture, there's no problem with it.

Those people are literally, explicitly, and knowably "good". Of course they would take time out of their lives to make the world a better place. That is what being "good" means. If you refuse to feed the poor because it is boring, you are not a good person. And we know that the PCs are good people, because it says so on their character sheet.

[Psyren]

I imagine that these settings had in their pasts gotten to some stage or another of post scarcity magical production before something happened.

You're right, and that is unfortunately also the problem. That "something happened" is usually shorthand for "the setting became an interesting place to adventure in again." When you look at the decadent, post-scarcity magical empires of a published setting's past - your Netheril, your Azlant, Istar, Zin-Azshari, etc. - there's little doubt that they had the magical mojo to churn out powerful magic items and other material goods like so much assembly-line bread. The PCs might even visit such places (always briefly) during their height as part of some time travel misadventure. But the most exciting things that happen in settings like that are leading up to when they invariably collapse and implode, not the humdrum routine of actually living there while everything is going great. And it's such a common result precisely because writing about these places at their height (and setting adventures there) is evidently boring.



Another interesting side effect of pseudo industrialized magical production is that where actual industry produces refuse as waste, a magical creation-of-final-product-from-nothing production creates excess finished products instead.
Which I like as the reason why so many gameworlds are chock full of magic items just littering encounters.

See, to me, the key word there is "encounters" - i.e. adventurers might stumble across magic items frequently, but that's because they're the ones risking their lives by delving into dungeons, facing off against powerful organizations, and outwitting rival bands. Those items can still be exceedingly rare in the grand scheme of things while also littering the kinds of places adventurers go, because adventurers themselves are uncommon and go to uncommon places. And I agree with you - a lot of those places can be holdovers from the kinds of post-scarcity empires mentioned above - but the loot they left behind can still be small in number overall.

[Jay R]

Those people are literally, explicitly, and knowably "good". Of course they would take time out of their lives to make the world a better place. That is what being "good" means.

Agreed, 100%


If you refuse to feed the poor because it is boring, you are not a good person. And we know that the PCs are good people, because it says so on their character sheet.

NOT agreed. Merely being good does not mean that they agree with you about the value of taking people's lifestyles away just to make them dependent on you for food permanently. This is the same logic that says all animals should be tamed and fed so they won't starve.

I agree that good people would feed people in a famine or other immediate crisis. But people are already eating food, all over the world. Replacing the way they are doing it now with another way that takes away their dignity and makes them your pets is not inherently the only way to be "literally, explicitly, and knowably 'good'".



How does the wizard find all those customers? How did he get his wares to the customers? How did he collect the money and get it back to his keeping? How does he make sure others aren't stealing his stuff and selling it at exorbitant prices?

Even with magically automated production, the actual decisions and planning behind running a continent-wide network is a full-time job.The wizard doesn't. Their Simulacrum or bound outsider or what have you takes care of it for them. Repeatably. Unendingly.

OK, I'll bite. How did the wizard find an outsider or simulacrum with knowledge of where every town, village and household is, how many people are there, how much food is needed, and exactly where the food can go, along with the technical expertise to run a world-girdling transportation network, the political knowledge of how to prevent the local bullies from seizing the food and using it for tyranny, etc.

I repeat: After you cast all the spells, and create the mountain of food or goods, the work of getting it where it's supposed to go is still a full-time job requiring a level of network theory, operations analysis, and logistics that simply does not exist in such a world.

You cannot just hand-wave away millions of decisions.

[SwordChucks]

NOT agreed. Merely being good does not mean that they agree with you about the value of taking people's lifestyles away just to make them dependent on you for food permanently. This is the same logic that says all animals should be tamed and fed so they won't starve.

I agree that good people would feed people in a famine or other immediate crisis. But people are already eating food, all over the world. Replacing the way they are doing it now with another way that takes away their dignity and makes them your pets is not inherently the only way to be "literally, explicitly, and knowably 'good'".

Where are you getting this? Did anyone say the wizard goes around and says "Eat my food or else"? That they burn down crops and kill or free livestock? It becomes an option, and people are free to turn it down.

Also, a post-scarcity society is a "society" not necessarily a post-scarcity world. The goal might be a post-scarcity world but that is likely beyond just one wizard pre-epic.

[Cosi]

NOT agreed. Merely being good does not mean that they agree with you about the value of taking people's lifestyles away just to make them dependent on you for food permanently. This is the same logic that says all animals should be tamed and fed so they won't starve.

Equating charity with taking people's lives away is a bold stance. If people enjoy being farmers, they can still do that. There are people today who farm (at one scale or another) not because they are subsistence farmers, or because they make their living at it, but because they enjoy doing so.


I agree that good people would feed people in a famine or other immediate crisis.

D&Dland is medieval. People are always starving everywhere because they live at a subsistence level on land being farmed with premodern techniques in a feudal relationship with the local lord (who, incidentally, is not exactly in favor of them having whatever lifestyle they want). Medieval Europe was at a level of growth we would have called depression or recession for hundreds of years. The infant mortality rate was somewhere between a third and a half. D&D is like that, but there are manticores and apocalypse cultists.

[Nifft]

D&Dland is medieval. People are always starving everywhere because they live at a subsistence level on land being farmed with premodern techniques in a feudal relationship with the local lord (who, incidentally, is not exactly in favor of them having whatever lifestyle they want). Medieval Europe was at a level of growth we would have called depression or recession for hundreds of years. The infant mortality rate was somewhere between a third and a half. D&D is like that, but there are manticores and apocalypse cultists.

I tend to see D&D world as a weird non-historical mixture of renaissance and post-apocalyptic.

Sure, you've got diseases and manticores and tsochar and cultists, but you also have druids and clerics and paladins and angels. In areas where the druids & clerics et al. are dominant, life might be pretty great, with enhanced crop yields and diseases cured. In areas where the manticores & cultists are winning, life might be rather nasty, brutish, and/or short.

High fantasy, renaissance, and post-apocalypse all feature themes like exploring ruins for valuable lost knowledge, which seems like a very central conceit for D&D.



Hmm, if implemented in a certain way, then a natural implication of that might be every city-state has a "load-bearing boss" NPC whose personal power guarantees the safety of the nearby region, and that might be a great in-game excuse for PCs to retire at some high-ish level.

[unseenmage]

...

OK, I'll bite. How did the wizard find an outsider or simulacrum with knowledge of where every town, village and household is, how many people are there, how much food is needed, and exactly where the food can go, along with the technical expertise to run a world-girdling transportation network, the political knowledge of how to prevent the local bullies from seizing the food and using it for tyranny, etc.

I repeat: After you cast all the spells, and create the mountain of food or goods, the work of getting it where it's supposed to go is still a full-time job requiring a level of network theory, operations analysis, and logistics that simply does not exist in such a world.

You cannot just hand-wave away millions of decisions.
Except that you can. You tell your minion to handle it. All of it.
You make a trap of a high enough Simulacrum or similar and you instruct the first to instruct the rest to get it done.
You make a trap that makes minions that make Int Magic Items whose powers and purposes are to create post scarcity.

Maybe every now and then you could spare a precious precious spell slot to look in on the process and tweak it. Oh no. How inconvenient. You've sullied your noble spellcaster's hands with giving an order to a sapient completely obedient and like minded minion.

Spells are like phone apps. You got a problem? The 3.x game has a brute force solution in magic. Not enough info? Divination spells. Not enough man hours? Minionmancy. Your skills not high enough? There's a spell for that.

Heck, with custom spells you get to magic away the minutia of just about any issue. And its supposed to be that way. Why? Same reason you keep stating, This is nominally an adventure game And magic is the device by which we obviate the minutia of the day to day so our table time can focus on monster fights instead.


Speaking of monster fights, you still get them in post scarcity. There's infinite planes full of monsters with opposed ideologies.
Just because the god fearing good folk of the prime material have their needs tended to doesnt mean they'll be perfectly safe all the time. It just means they stop dying of preventable disease, starvation, exposure, and thirst.

And I'm not saying your way of playing is wrong or unfun. Just that the default world of suffering and scarcity doesnt hold up to a rational application of the rules that are supposed to run along side said scarcity.

[Cosi]

I tend to see D&D world as a weird non-historical mixture of renaissance and post-apocalyptic.

Sure, you've got diseases and manticores and tsochar and cultists, but you also have druids and clerics and paladins and angels. In areas where the druids & clerics et al. are dominant, life might be pretty great, with enhanced crop yields and diseases cured. In areas where the manticores & cultists are winning, life might be rather nasty, brutish, and/or short.

High fantasy, renaissance, and post-apocalypse all feature themes like exploring ruins for valuable lost knowledge, which seems like a very central conceit for D&D.



Hmm, if implemented in a certain way, then a natural implication of that might be every city-state has a "load-bearing boss" NPC whose personal power guarantees the safety of the nearby region, and that might be a great in-game excuse for PCs to retire at some high-ish level.

Something like that would definitely be an improvement. But as far as I can tell, that paradigm -- one where the high level ruler of a kingdom does stuff to make life in that kingdom better -- is exactly what Jay R doesn't want to happen.

My personal view is that kingdom management should just be a default part of the game. You shouldn't have to pick between dungeon adventures and managing your kingdom, because the resources you use in those fields shouldn't trade off. Also, it's not really hard to imagine what might happen if you improved life in the medieval world by some amount, because that is what all of history since the middle ages has been. Figuring out what the impact of the PCs increasing agricultural yields or decreasing transportation times isn't terribly hard, and gives the PCs a real and meaningful measure of progress.

[Psyren]

And I'm not saying your way of playing is wrong or unfun. Just that the default world of suffering and scarcity doesn't hold up to a rational application of the rules that are supposed to run along side said scarcity.

The problem is that the rules don't paint a complete picture. We have things like artifacts and owlbears and living spells and wild/dead magic zones in the world, but the rules are silent on how to create most of them (whether intentionally or by accident.) It suggests however that in practice, mortal magic has unintended consequences and that spells don't always work perfectly. This aspect of magic doesn't come up in the "normal" game because simple adventuring is chaotic enough, but it could very well come into play when you're trying to revolutionize industry through highly repeatable spellcraft.

No one is saying that a good character wouldn't try to eliminate hunger and scarcity if they had the power to make the attempt. They very likely would. But actually succeeding seems like a different matter. Your wizard isn't the first good and smart person to walk the earth, so why has it not succeeded before? That to me is the more interesting question.

[Oracle71]

Your wizard isn't the first good and smart person to walk the earth, so why has it not succeeded before? That to me is the more interesting question.

I run with the FRCS take on the subject. Basically, every powerful being has other more or less equally powerful beings who watch them and oppose their activities, for whatever reason their nature demands.

So, if one group of powerful wizards is actively trying to eliminate hunger via these self resetting spell traps, they will have some other group who will actively try to sabotage them, whether it is because they want the wizards to epically fail and lose prestige, or because they are devout followers of the god of pestilence and starvation, or because they have huge financial stakes in the current feudal system and they don't want their money stream interrupted.

The opposing greed or hatred of powerful enemies can go a long way to undoing the good deeds of a few heroes.

[Cosi]

I think "there are evil ***** who want people to starve" is a totally reasonable thing, as long as it is clear that those people are evil. The god of pestilence trying to keep filth fever around is a completely in-character thing for him to do. The problem I have is when it is suggested that the good gods would rather people live traditionally and starve, or that "there is a guy who is pro-starvation and that is why people starve to death" should be responded to with anything other than an attempt to depose that guy.


the rules are silent on how to create most of them (whether intentionally or by accident.) It suggests however that in practice, mortal magic has unintended consequences and that spells don't always work perfectly.

"The rules are silent on this issue, but also they suggest that I am right and the world works the way I want it to."

[Nifft]

Something like that would definitely be an improvement. But as far as I can tell, that paradigm -- one where the high level ruler of a kingdom does stuff to make life in that kingdom better -- is exactly what Jay R doesn't want to happen.

My personal view is that kingdom management should just be a default part of the game. You shouldn't have to pick between dungeon adventures and managing your kingdom, because the resources you use in those fields shouldn't trade off. Also, it's not really hard to imagine what might happen if you improved life in the medieval world by some amount, because that is what all of history since the middle ages has been. Figuring out what the impact of the PCs increasing agricultural yields or decreasing transportation times isn't terribly hard, and gives the PCs a real and meaningful measure of progress.

That would be a better game, yeah.

Now I want a hybrid Sim City / Civilization / RPG.



I run with the FRCS take on the subject. Basically, every powerful being has other more or less equally powerful beings who watch them and oppose their activities, for whatever reason their nature demands.

FR also relies on those same powerful NPCs as quest-givers. Can you imagine how horrible it would be if they actually were watched by their enemies?

Elminster: "Welcome young adventurers! I'm going to give you a vital quest: try to stay alive as long as possible. You were seen entering my humble abode, so you've been marked by my numerous enemies. I am actually quite active in terms of making the world a better place, and you're going to help me, whether you want to help or not. You're going to help by running away from the powerful enemies who will from now on seek your death. I'm not going to tell you anything, so you can't give them useful information in trade for your lives. Would you like tea before you start running?"

[Psyren]

I run with the FRCS take on the subject. Basically, every powerful being has other more or less equally powerful beings who watch them and oppose their activities, for whatever reason their nature demands.

So, if one group of powerful wizards is actively trying to eliminate hunger via these self resetting spell traps, they will have some other group who will actively try to sabotage them, whether it is because they want the wizards to epically fail and lose prestige, or because they are devout followers of the god of pestilence and starvation, or because they have huge financial stakes in the current feudal system and they don't want their money stream interrupted.

The opposing greed or hatred of powerful enemies can go a long way to undoing the good deeds of a few heroes.

Yep, this makes perfect sense to me. The Powers that support entropy and chaos are no less capable than the ones in favor of order and progress, and balance is achieved. Perhaps one will win out over the other for a period of time - even a long one - but it all balances out eventually when those civilizations come crashing to earth.



FR also relies on those same powerful NPCs as quest-givers. Can you imagine how horrible it would be if they actually were watched by their enemies?

Elminster: "Welcome young adventurers! I'm going to give you a vital quest: try to stay alive as long as possible. You were seen entering my humble abode, so you've been marked by my numerous enemies. I am actually quite active in terms of making the world a better place, and you're going to help me, whether you want to help or not. You're going to help by running away from the powerful enemies who will from now on seek your death. I'm not going to tell you anything, so you can't give them useful information in trade for your lives. Would you like tea before you start running?"

Well I mean, keeping an eye on Elminster's overall plans and goals doesn't necessarily mean that they know every time he brushes his teeth. It's more likely anyway that for a lower-level party he'd be issuing marching orders through the Harpers or the Church of Mystra or something. (In fact, you've hit upon the exact reason such organizations exist in the first place.)

[unseenmage]

...

"The rules are silent on this issue, but also they suggest that I am right and the world works the way I want it to."

Basically this. And since at the the end of the day it IS a game of pretend this is still likely a completely v a solid stance.
Which is why there's so much of it going on at any given time in any given thread.

That said, I will agree that while I wouldn't mind being dropped naked into the Forgotten Realms game, being forced to inhabit the Realms minus a rules system would be just awful.
Same for just about every gameworld. Is part of why I game in these worlds and visit these gaming forums.
More freeform expression of the Forgottem Realms I'll leave to its authors and artists.

[Psyren]

That said, I will agree that while I wouldn't mind being dropped naked into the Forgotten Realms game, being forced to inhabit the Realms minus a rules system would be just awful.
Same for just about every gameworld. Is part of why I game in these worlds and visit these gaming forums.
More freeform expression of the Forgottem Realms I'll leave to its authors and artists.

And that's totally fine, but It pretty much answers the question posed in the OP. Those crafters exist because they inhabit a world that goes beyond the RAW.

[Nifft]

Well I mean, keeping an eye on Elminster's overall plans and goals doesn't necessarily mean that they know every time he brushes his teeth. It's more likely anyway that for a lower-level party he'd be issuing marching orders through the Harpers or the Church of Mystra or something. (In fact, you've hit upon the exact reason such organizations exist in the first place.)

A group of heavily-armed magical mercenaries visiting his home is hopefully a more notable event than mere teeth-brushing, unless you're saying something insulting about the dude's dental hygiene. (Which might be accurate, I don't know that topic.)

But yes, that's what the Harpers and such are going to do in this setting: they get to actually accomplish stuff, while the PCs are busy running for their lives as the distraction.

Sucks to be a PC in that world, but whatever, as long as the fiction is upheld right?

[Psyren]

A group of heavily-armed magical mercenaries visiting his home is hopefully a more notable event than mere teeth-brushing, unless you're saying something insulting about the dude's dental hygiene. (Which might be accurate, I don't know that topic.)

That's my point though - they wouldn't necessarily visit his home until they're high enough level to handle the attention that would bring. He has lots of proxies and agents that can deliver information in his stead before then. Same with Khelben, The Simbul, The Lords of Waterdeep etc. Meeting those folks at level 1 (knowingly, anyway) is pretty rare.



But yes, that's what the Harpers and such are going to do in this setting: they get to actually accomplish stuff, while the PCs are busy running for their lives as the distraction.

Sucks to be a PC in that world, but whatever, as long as the fiction is upheld right?

In most modules and APs it's the other way around actually; the Harpers get you the connections and resources, but ultimately your group saves the day. You might even get an invitation to join them at the end. Same with Pathfinder Society, various Dragonmarked houses, Knights of Solamnia etc.

[Vizzerdrix]

Knights of Solamnia etc.

I read that as Knights of Somolia, now I'm sad that pirate knights aren't a real thing:smallfrown:

[Psyren]

I read that as Knights of Somolia, now I'm sad that pirate knights aren't a real thing:smallfrown:

"Look at me. Look at me. I'm the Brightblade now." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvA-mimf2yg)

[Jay R]

Where are you getting this? Did anyone say the wizard goes around and says "Eat my food or else"?

I got it from the thread topic - "Why do mundane crafters exist?" If people are proposing suggestions that don't eliminate the people doing it mundanely, then they have brought in irrelevancies.


Equating charity with taking people's lives away is a bold stance. If people enjoy being farmers, they can still do that.

It's not a "bold stance". It's merely staying on-topic. We are discussing "Why do mundane crafters exist?"

[SwordChucks]

I got it from the thread topic - "Why do mundane crafters exist?" If people are proposing suggestions that don't eliminate the people doing it mundanely, then they have brought in irrelevancies.



It's not a "bold stance". It's merely staying on-topic. We are discussing "Why do mundane crafters exist?"

"Eliminate the people doing it mundanely" is odd phrasing. It makes it sound like the caster is commiting farmer genocide. Probably better to phrase it as "eliminate the need for people to do it mundanely".

People still have to accept the food that's offered. They are in no way guaranteed to be made into pets. In the scenario where someone turns down the offer and grows their own food there is an answer for the topic. Simply the mundane people wanted to do it themselves. In almost any other case it is entirely up to the DM why caster crafters haven't replace the mundane.

[Efrate]

As far as distribution etc of magically produced stuff, the number of planar allies and the like with teleport without error and much more is staggering. Simple fix. Minionmancy solves all the logistical issues pretty handily.

Also in a post scarcity world, why wouldn't 30 in wizard with his ton of skillpoints become the greatest basketweaver of all time or such mundanely as a hobby?

Mundane crafters exist because the in world fiction is not consistent and taken far falls Into ruin rather quickly.

[Jay R]

Something like that would definitely be an improvement. But as far as I can tell, that paradigm -- one where the high level ruler of a kingdom does stuff to make life in that kingdom better -- is exactly what Jay R doesn't want to happen.

Wow. Insult received.

No, that is not what I have said or what I have meant.

I specifically wrote "My point is that hiring farmers works just as well, and leaves the PCs free to stop the invading ogres (which is what supercharged do-gooders tend to do)."

That is specifically about the PCs making life better for the ogres' intended victims. There is no honest or fair way to turn that into a claim that I don't want high level people to do stuff that makes life better.

I have said, several times, that people without modern knowledge cannot run the world-girdling network that would be required.

I have said, more than once, that this requires a level of modern operations analysis.

I wrote "Even with magically automated production, the actual decisions and planning behind running a continent-wide network is a full-time job."

I wrote "OK, I'll bite. How did the wizard find an outsider or simulacrum with knowledge of where every town, village and household is, how many people are there, how much food is needed, and exactly where the food can go, along with the technical expertise to run a world-girdling transportation network, the political knowledge of how to prevent the local bullies from seizing the food and using it for tyranny, etc."

I wrote "After you cast all the spells, and create the mountain of food or goods, the work of getting it where it's supposed to go is still a full-time job requiring a level of network theory, operations analysis, and logistics that simply does not exist in such a world.

You cannot just hand-wave away millions of decisions."

You did not respond to any of this, because quoting any of these would have proved that your insult was false.

[SwordChucks]

Jay R, the way the logistics of spreading goods to the region/continent/world expands is the same. Slowly and by trial-and-error. As long as the caster breaks even in someway the network can expand. A high Int and Wis goes a long way to setting up redundancies and preventing mishaps.

Once you're dealing with literal superhuman intelligence, saying something requires modern thought can't be proven true.