Metapsi and Dominant Ideal

[Elkad]

I just realized (ok, saw elsewhere) that Metapsionic feats don't say "can only be applied once". They just take expenditure of focus. I'm guessing a rules argument is about to start on that, but assuming it's true and you can stack them...

We all know the focus tricks, starting with a bonus one on your psicrystal, but all the other tricks tend to destroy your power bar in a hurry as you buy move actions to recover focus (and make a left-turn into TO country, and then accelerate hard because now you might as well pile on some infinite power tricks too)

Enter Dominant Ideal. Apply metapsionics without using focus (on your preferred Ardent mantle), which means you can pile on all the meta you can handle. Plus a 2pt power reduction.
And then you don't need to mess with Quicken, Maximize, Twin, Split, Repeating, Linked, etc. So you save a bunch of feats.

ML12 Ardent, with Empower and Dominant Ideal(Energy), using Energy Ray, spending 12pts of power in every instance.

6pt ray can be quadruple empowered, for 18d6
8pt ray can be triple empowered, for 20d6.
10pt ray can be double empowered, for 20d6 again
12pt ray can be single empowered, for 18d6
14pt ray (augmented only) for 14d6
We have a sweet spot.

ML16
6pt, 6 empowers=24d6
8pt, 5 empowers=28d6
10pt, 4 empowers=30d6
12pt, 3 empowers=30d6
14pt, 2 empowers=28d6
16pt, 1 empower=24d6
18pt, aug only=18d6


Add Metapower (Energy Ray, Empowered) and you get another free empower. (I'll ignore the TO option of metapower reducing ALL your empowers by 2pts each, yielding infinite empowers for infinite damage for 1pp)

Lets shift to Disintegrate. Benefit being empowering the damage on the passed Fort save. Even at CL11, with metapower and dominant, you can double-empower, for 10d6 on a passed save. (and 44d6 if they fail, but without ramping DC like other psi powers, or investing in penetration, they don't fail that often).
At ML19 with both feats, you can do Empower*6, for 20d6 on a passed save. That's pretty solid for 19pp and 2 feats.

[Venger]

There is no rules argument. Your focus is either expended, or unexpended. Once I expend my focus on burrowing power or whatever, I can't expend it again. Consequently, you can't stack metapsionic feats unless you have more than one focus

[Zombulian]

I just realized (ok, saw elsewhere) that Metapsionic feats don't say "can only be applied once". They just take expenditure of focus. I'm guessing a rules argument is about to start on that, but assuming it's true and you can stack them...

We all know the focus tricks, starting with a bonus one on your psicrystal, but all the other tricks tend to destroy your power bar in a hurry as you buy move actions to recover focus (and make a left-turn into TO country, and then accelerate hard because now you might as well pile on some infinite power tricks too)

Enter Dominant Ideal. Apply metapsionics without using focus (on your preferred Ardent mantle), which means you can pile on all the meta you can handle. Plus a 2pt power reduction.
And then you don't need to mess with Quicken, Maximize, Twin, Split, Repeating, Linked, etc. So you save a bunch of feats.

ML12 Ardent, with Empower and Dominant Ideal(Energy), using Energy Ray, spending 12pts of power in every instance.

6pt ray can be quadruple empowered, for 18d6
8pt ray can be triple empowered, for 20d6.
10pt ray can be double empowered, for 20d6 again
12pt ray can be single empowered, for 18d6
14pt ray (augmented only) for 14d6
We have a sweet spot.

ML16
6pt, 6 empowers=24d6
8pt, 5 empowers=28d6
10pt, 4 empowers=30d6
12pt, 3 empowers=30d6
14pt, 2 empowers=28d6
16pt, 1 empower=24d6
18pt, aug only=18d6


Add Metapower (Energy Ray, Empowered) and you get another free empower. (I'll ignore the TO option of metapower reducing ALL your empowers by 2pts each, yielding infinite empowers for infinite damage for 1pp)

Lets shift to Disintegrate. Benefit being empowering the damage on the passed Fort save. Even at CL11, with metapower and dominant, you can double-empower, for 10d6 on a passed save. (and 44d6 if they fail, but without ramping DC like other psi powers, or investing in penetration, they don't fail that often).
At ML19 with both feats, you can do Empower*6, for 20d6 on a passed save. That's pretty solid for 19pp and 2 feats.

So I think you may be right. I can't think of a reason why you couldn't stack Metapsionics (maybe there's a rule somewhere about it).
But I'd like to note that you seem to be misunderstanding Empower. It has nothing to do with the dice.

[thethird]

There is no rules argument. Your focus is either expended, or unexpended. Once I expend my focus on burrowing power or whatever, I can't expend it again. Consequently, you can't stack metapsionic feats unless you have more than one focus

Dominant ideal means that the focus os not expended.

[Zombulian]

Dominant ideal means that the focus os not expended.

I think he was referring to the first paragraph and ignored the rest of the post.

[Elkad]

There is no rules argument. Your focus is either expended, or unexpended. Once I expend my focus on burrowing power or whatever, I can't expend it again. Consequently, you can't stack metapsionic feats unless you have more than one focus

Remember, even psicrystal containment gives you 2 focuses. So rather than empower+maximize, if metapsi can be applied multiple times, you can just empower twice.


Dominant ideal means that the focus os not expended.
Which makes this the key point. Stack all you want, you don't need focus any more.

[Zombulian]

worth noting perhaps is that metapsionic effect is applied before augmentation

Wait really?
Citation?

[Nifft]

I can't see anything that would allow a metapsionic feat to be applied more than once.

Is that a rule from C.Psi?

[Zombulian]

I can't see anything that would allow a metapsionic feat to be applied more than once.

Is that a rule from C.Psi?

The basis of the argument seems to be "there's nothing that says I can't" plus this acf. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)

I realize now that the general rule that you can't benefit from the bonuses from the same source should apply here. Like how you can't use Power Attack 3 times on one attack and just stacking your to-hit penalties.

[Psyren]

This is a controversial item that has come up before. It stems from the fact that this passage from the PHB section on Metamagic:


A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. A silent, stilled version of charm person, for example, would be prepared and cast as a 3rd-level spell (a 1st-level spell, increased by one spell level for each of the metamagic feats). You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell (for instance, you can’t cast a twice-empowered magic missile to get +100% damage).

wasn't copied over to the XPH or CPsi. Some folks see it as an oversight, while others treat it as intentional and determine that the only limitation on metapsionic feats is your psionic focus (which Dominant Ideal removes) and the increased PP cost.

[Elkad]

I realize now that the general rule that you can't benefit from the bonuses from the same source should apply here. Like how you can't use Power Attack 3 times on one attack and just stacking your to-hit penalties.

That's a pretty solid argument.
"I Shock Trooper PA ∞ times, for ∞*2 Bonus Damage. (also reducing my AC to -∞)"

[Nifft]

The basis of the argument seems to be "there's nothing that says I can't" plus this acf. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)

I realize now that the general rule that you can't benefit from the bonuses from the same source should apply here. Like how you can't use Power Attack 3 times on one attack and just stacking your to-hit penalties.

Hmm, so it's a pure-theory discussion (where "nothing says I can't" is relevant).

Even assuming that you can apply Metapsionics multiple times, I suspect that a strict enough reading would remove any benefit from doing so, given this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metapsionicFeats



Effects of Metapsionic Feats on a Power

In all ways, a metapsionic power operates at its original power level, even though it costs additional power points. The modifications to a power made by a metapsionic feat have only their noted effect on the power. A manifester can’t use a metapsionic feat to alter a power being cast from a power stone, dorje, or other device.

Manifesting a power modified by the Quicken Power feat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Some metapsionic feats apply only to certain powers, as described in each specific feat entry.
(Emphasis added.)

A strict reading could prohibit Metapsionic feats from having any effect on the augmentation of a power, since they're not the power's "original power level". I think that's independent of the order-of-operations argument (which would accomplish the same thing by other means).

-- -- --

Personally I would prefer to allow a Metapsionic feat to operate on the post-Augmentation power, but that's probably because nobody's tried infinite stacking before.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The basis of the argument seems to be "there's nothing that says I can't" plus this acf. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)

I realize now that the general rule that you can't benefit from the bonuses from the same source should apply here. Like how you can't use Power Attack 3 times on one attack and just stacking your to-hit penalties.It's not a bonus, though. It's an increase in base effect. Unless you can't add more than +1 pp on augmenting energy ray for 2d6 damage?

[Zombulian]

Hmm, so it's a pure-theory discussion (where "nothing says I can't" is relevant).

Even assuming that you can apply Metapsionics multiple times, I suspect that a strict enough reading would remove any benefit from doing so, given this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metapsionicFeats

(Emphasis added.)

A strict reading could prohibit Metapsionic feats from having any effect on the augmentation of a power, since they're not the power's "original power level". I think that's independent of the order-of-operations argument (which would accomplish the same thing by other means).

-- -- --

Personally I would prefer to allow a Metapsionic feat to operate on the post-Augmentation power, but that's probably because nobody's tried infinite stacking before.

Even with that clause, it doesn't seem to stop the problem of stacking a Metapsionic feat several times (though my above argument might).
I really don't like the idea that Empower would only apply to the first d6 of an Energy Ray though, that seems awfully silly.

[Nifft]

Even with that clause, it doesn't seem to stop the problem of stacking a Metapsionic feat several times (though my above argument might). Yeah it's best in combo with your argument -- the idea would be that you can pay twice if you want, but you'll only get one effect, and that effect will probably kinda suck.


I really don't like the idea that Empower would only apply to the first d6 of an Energy Ray though, that seems awfully silly. Not my preference either.

But it's nice to have in your pocket when someone tries to rules-lawyer: you can show them that rules-lawyer behavior will tend to be counter-productive. Wouldn't they prefer to have an Empower Power that works well once per power, rather than an Empower Power that sucks horribly (but which they can apply multiple times)?

[PacMan2247]

It's worth noting that the text of Empower Power states its effect in two different ways: "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half. An empowered power deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate. Augmented powers can also be empowered (multiply 1-1/2 times the damage total of the augmented power)."

The first sentence suggests it can be used multiple times, compounding the effect. Everything else about the text says otherwise.

The effect of Enlarge Power changes the range of the power being affected, removing it from the categories of valid powers to affect again. Extend Power simply states the power lasts twice as long as normal. Burrowing Power, Chain Power, Delay Power, Maximize Power, Opportunity Power, Quicken Power, Split Ray, and Twin Power are all worded in ways that I don't see a way to affect with this trick. The only other one in the XPH that appears worded vaguely enough that you might get this past someone is Widen Power. Even if you get the green light for something like this with Empower, dumping points into empowering rather than augmenting means you're keeping the saving throw low; for my money, there are better ways to spend power points.