Reality Travel - Who's Best, Who Fails?

[Quertus]

There used to be a lot of threads about "Wizard 20 vs..." or "Wizard 20 in..." X. Those threads invariably have, "assume that magic works".

But what if we don't have that assumption?

The Time of Troubles taught us that mages are entirely dependent on an external power source.- "the weave" in FR. Without it, they're just a smart guy in pajamas.

What about Psions? Aren't their powers self-contained? Well, Time of Troubles says no. Despite the seeming independence of psionics from magic in 2e (they work in an anti-magic zone, for example), when the weave went haywire, Psions suffered, too.

Clerics are, of course, doubly boned - they need magic and their patron. Of course, 2e has Contact Home Plane, and 3e has clerics of an ideal, so they, at least, are probably no worse off than a Wizard.

Even if they have magic, many of their spells are reliant on the particular, peculiar planar geography of D&D. This can affect muggles, too, with extraplanar storage or other related items going offline even if they happen to get their other items working somehow.

So, D&D characters don't handle reality travel well, outside rare edge cases where everything is set up perfectly for them. What about characters from other systems? Got any systems you'd like to put forward as truly competent world hoppers, or as epic failures alongside D&D casters?

[Arbane]

The Royal Family of Amber. Being able to go ANYWHERE is their primary power.

[RFLS]

Shadowrun mages literally can't operate off-planet, because (iirc), the magic in the system requires living things to be generated (similar to the Force). I think there's a space station or something similar in orbit that has a massive garden that they can operate minimally in.

[Nifft]

The Time of Troubles taught us that mages are entirely dependent on an external power source.- "the weave" in FR. Without it, they're just a smart guy in pajamas. "The weave" is specific to one setting.

If a high-level Wizard chooses to remain in that setting when they had the option to leave, they'd be one of the less-smart guys in pajamas.


What about Psions? Aren't their powers self-contained? Well, Time of Troubles says no. Despite the seeming independence of psionics from magic in 2e (they work in an anti-magic zone, for example), when the weave went haywire, Psions suffered, too. Psions should also have access to plane shift. The smart ones would have run away.

In a different setting, they would be self-contained.


But if you're required to stay in that setting, I suspect your best option would be Drow Ranger.

[Quertus]

The Royal Family of Amber. Being able to go ANYWHERE is their primary power.

I'm not familiar with the intricacies of Amber. What is the source of their power? Why would it continue to operate in other realities?


Shadowrun mages literally can't operate off-planet, because (iirc), the magic in the system requires living things to be generated (similar to the Force). I think there's a space station or something similar in orbit that has a massive garden that they can operate minimally in.

Had I not wanted to make the opening post short, this would have been my next comment!


"The weave" is specific to one setting.

Yes. But it has a name, and, as such, is easier to discuss than... whatever nebulous thing casters in other D&D worlds manipulate.


If a high-level Wizard chooses to remain in that setting when they had the option to leave, they'd be one of the less-smart guys in pajamas.

You're not wrong.

But that's not the point. The point is, if they traveled to a different D&D world, with D&D magic, they'd be fine. If, otoh, they traveled to, say, a Shadowrun world with no weave equivalent, they'd be hosed.


In a different setting, they would be self-contained.

No, I'm pretty sure a) 2e psionics stop functioning on dead magic worlds; b) 3e psionics have magic / psionic transparency, and fail even in anti-magic, let alone full-on dead magic worlds.

[Khedrac]

I'm not familiar with the intricacies of Amber. What is the source of their power? Why would it continue to operate in other realities?That depends how one defines "other realities". Their power comes from having walked the pattern that is the embodiment of law in the multiverse (well actually a one-step reflection of it). [Spoiler in white text.]
Their main ability is to be able to walk through the infinite worlds of the multiverse twisting the one they are in to suit them (so they move from one to the other getting closer to what they want). If you regard all worlds as part of the Amber multiverse then yes, their powers do work everywhere (with the possible exception of places "past" the Courts of Chaos which is the other "end" of the multiverse).
So they may not be able to change the world you are in to stop you from casting meteor swarm at them, but they can switch to a world where your spell doesn't do what you wanted it to... It's a bit of win-win as both they and their in-world enemies win (in the sense that they are no longer in their enemy's world).

The problem with any of these comparisons is that they all come down to author's fiat (i.e. they depend on what we decide works). For example, a really good sniper with a powerful rifle can probably kill most opponents (even a Wizard 20 who hasn't imagined far enough about what they might be attacked by) - with the caveat that their rifle must continue to work - and gunpowder and cordite explicitly don't work in the realms close to Amber itself.

I have read one DC comic where some aliens used a technology to prevent superpowers working so they could invade (not really that uncommon I think), however one of the heroes was naturally above human strength so her muscles still worked, which doesn't explain why alien heroes are usually powered down to human levels - they have lost what is natural to them. Put the two together and it is an example of the author's fiat in operation.

Most "extreme top of their world" champions are near invincible if their powers work, and a fairly ordinary human if not. The sort that will do best without powers are the Batman sort who don't technically have powers (something I think the Batman authors often forget). That doesn't mean that they can take a Wizard 20 whose magic works, but they are likely to do the best if no-one's "magic" works...

[Nifft]

Yes. But it has a name, and, as such, is easier to discuss than... whatever nebulous thing casters in other D&D worlds manipulate.
IIRC the Time of Troubles was specifically the transition from AD&D 1e to 2e, so I think talking about 1e mechanics is relevant... heh, maybe all the 1e characters with Appendix 1 Psionics did leave, so 1e psionics stopped being relevant.

I think it was still possible to return to D&D world via magic, even if the current world had little or no magic... wait, no, here's what it said:


https://i.imgur.com/I5nwZPR.png

There's also this on the Physical Factor:

https://i.imgur.com/uskxOYk.png

... and then a special "no magic for you" section, which would be particularly harsh for Clerics of powers where the powers got stuck on an alternate Prime, like in the Time of Troubles:

https://i.imgur.com/iN2rvFy.png

... so yeah, you're right, even a 1e magic-user could be sufficiently hosed by a low-magic world.



But that's not the point. The point is, if they traveled to a different D&D world, with D&D magic, they'd be fine. If, otoh, they traveled to, say, a Shadowrun world with no weave equivalent, they'd be hosed. Mmm. Shadowrun does have its own type of magic, so presumably a magic-using D&D character would be translated into an Awakened character in Shadowrun.

I mean, unless the Weave is an intentionally-crippled interface that stunts your magic growth so you always develop spells along predictable paths, and those paths are only usable with permission... in which case, watch out for Reapers.

I suspect the Weave is not any kind of intentionally pernicious thing, so travel could force adaptation but would not imply powerlessness.


No, I'm pretty sure a) 2e psionics stop functioning on dead magic worlds; b) 3e psionics have magic / psionic transparency, and fail even in anti-magic, let alone full-on dead magic worlds. IIRC there was something about 1e psionics ignoring magic prohibitions, but I can't find that right now, so maybe I'm wrong.

[Quertus]

That depends how one defines "other realities". Their power comes from having walked the pattern that is the embodiment of law in the multiverse
Their main ability is to be able to walk through the infinite worlds of the multiverse twisting the one they are in to suit them (so they move from one to the other getting closer to what they want). If you regard all worlds as part of the Amber multiverse then yes, their powers do work everywhere (with the possible exception of places "past" the Courts of Chaos which is the other "end" of the multiverse).

That sounds very much like they have learned one particular set of patterns, and their abilities work so long as reality conforms to their expectations. Kinda like the D&D Wizard.


The problem with any of these comparisons is that they all come down to author's fiat

Yes and no.

In the case of the D&D Wizard, we have some information regarding the source of their power, the way it functions (using particular dimensions / planes for certain spells), and (at least in 2e) rules for worlds that do not contain that power source. Sure (assuming that Gygax wasn't a scientist reporting his findings of reality) it's initially created by fiat, but further rules need not be created whole cloth.

Similarly, Shadowrun explains the source of magical power as requiring an ambient life force energy - take that away, no magic. It would take fiat - or, at least, someone more knowledgeable on the insert workings of Shadowrun mechanics than myself - to answer questions like what this life force field interacts with / why magic comes and goes in the world of Shadowrun, or whether life forms native to other realities would create a suitable life force field to interact with whatever else is required for Shadowrun magic, etc.


(i.e. they depend on what we decide works). For example, a really good sniper with a powerful rifle can probably kill most opponents (even a Wizard 20 who hasn't imagined far enough about what they might be attacked by)

This is actually a super tricky question. I may circle back to this later.


- with the caveat that their rifle must continue to work - and gunpowder and cordite explicitly don't work in the realms close to Amber itself.

What are the underlying mechanics for gunpowder not working in Amber?


I have read one DC comic where some aliens used a technology to prevent superpowers working so they could invade (not really that uncommon I think), however one of the heroes was naturally above human strength so her muscles still worked, which doesn't explain why alien heroes are usually powered down to human levels - they have lost what is natural to them. Put the two together and it is an example of the author's fiat in operation.

Most "extreme top of their world" champions are near invincible if their powers work, and a fairly ordinary human if not. The sort that will do best without powers are the Batman sort who don't technically have powers (something I think the Batman authors often forget). That doesn't mean that they can take a Wizard 20 whose magic works, but they are likely to do the best if no-one's "magic" works...

I certainly want to avoid that level of stupidity if at all possible. I am, I suppose, not yet convinced that it is possible to avoid. :smallfrown:

On the subject of Batman - he would have a little trouble in WoD Dark Ages / Crusade (and perhaps Amber?) where his technology explicitly wouldn't work. More of a "gotcha" moment than an inability to adapt, however.

So, of course, the ******* Batman rates fairly high as a reality traveler.

[Quertus]

... so yeah, you're right, even a 1e magic-user could be sufficiently hosed by a low-magic world.


Mmm. Shadowrun does have its own type of magic, so presumably a magic-using D&D character would be translated into an Awakened character in Shadowrun.

I mean, unless the Weave is an intentionally-crippled interface that stunts your magic growth so you always develop spells along predictable paths, and those paths are only usable with permission... in which case, watch out for Reapers.

I suspect the Weave is not any kind of intentionally pernicious thing, so travel could force adaptation but would not imply powerlessness.

IIRC there was something about 1e psionics ignoring magic prohibitions, but I can't find that right now, so maybe I'm wrong.

Wow, I had no idea that these concepts were actually covered in 1e. So it's been a D&D tradition even longer than I'd realized.

-----

When I write a program, it doesn't suddenly magically work in C, and HTML, and COBOL, and BASIC, and... Etc etc. Nor, sadly, does it automatically work on Mac, and PC, and Unix, and C64, and X-box, and... Etc etc.

Perhaps with absolutely no grounding in the rules, my programmer friends and I have generally viewed spell casting as the equivalent of learning to be a script kiddie on one language on one platform. That in no way entitles you to any level of competence at anything else. Change the language / OS (or, if you prefer hardware, AC vs DC / American vs European electricity), and things aren't going to be pretty.

Now, are there any rules besides fiat to say whether someone trained in praying to Torn to access the weave could plug into and use use the ambient life energy whatsit of Shadowrun? None that I'm aware of. (EDIT: yes, people often convert characters between systems for games. The question I'm asking in this thread is, under the strictest interpretation of how their powers work, which system's prerequisites for a character's abilities make them well (or poorly) suited for reality travel?)

[dps]

That sounds very much like they have learned one particular set of patterns, and their abilities work so long as reality conforms to their expectations. Kinda like the D&D Wizard.


Not exactly. IIRC (and I haven't read the Amber books in maybe 40 years for the original series of books, and at least 25 for the second series, so it's quite possible that I don't remember correctly) they essentially create reality by walking the pattern, so reality will conform pretty much to their expectations.


What are the underlying mechanics for gunpowder not working in Amber?

I don't recall; as I stated, it's been a looong time since I read the books. Maybe Arbane can tell us.

Dang, now I want to re-read the books, but who knows when I'll have the time.

[NichG]

Mastermind manipulators probably do the best. They can build on the powers of others wherever they end up. As long as they adapt to psychology and cultural changes, at least.

[RFLS]

Similarly, Shadowrun explains the source of magical power as requiring an ambient life force energy - take that away, no magic. It would take fiat - or, at least, someone more knowledgeable on the insert workings of Shadowrun mechanics than myself - to answer questions like what this life force field interacts with / why magic comes and goes in the world of Shadowrun, or whether life forms native to other realities would create a suitable life force field to interact with whatever else is required for Shadowrun magic, etc.

Quoting the small portion here in the hopes that someone can answer some/all of the questions. I read 4e cover to cover and can't recall an answer to any of them.

[Florian]

Pathfinder has a third power source beyond arcane and divine - occult. Basically, that's more "reality hacking" than using magic and even non-casters can conduct occult rituals for things like plane traveling.

[Mechalich]

I'd go with the Excession, from the eponymous novel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excession) by Ian M. Banks, since that's a device/being specifically designed to transition between universes and is capable of unleashing galaxy-destroying power.

[Khedrac]

That sounds very much like they have learned one particular set of patterns, and their abilities work so long as reality conforms to their expectations. Kinda like the D&D Wizard.Oddly enough no. They don't use the pattern to power their abilities, err big spoiler coming up - some of it comes from the RPG and not the books.
The founder of the House of Amber was a prince of Chaos. The lords of chaos get their power from following the Logres - sort of their version of the pattern. They can cast spells that work everywere, but magic is completely different to worldwalking (and those of Amber could do this too if they knew how - they can in the game). Individual worlds (or areas of worlds) can have magic and spell-casting, but that is not the same as using the pattern (or logres) to worldwalk (only one person has walked both, and he is also a fairly powerful sorceror and has been described as the "only nice guy" in either of the Courts of Amber and Chaos). A lot of the time walking the worlds is presented as changing the world they are in to suit them - it isn't that but it seems to be how they think of it (i.e. ignoring what they don't like/want). Walking the Pattern/Logres merely "switches on" their abilities. The Pattern is the essence of Law and stops the universe dissoving into Chaos, (it is also sentient which really complicates things, and there ends up being two patterns because a second one gets created - it's less powerful than the original but takes steps to protect itself - this changes the universe from a place with two "poles" to "three"). Damage to the original pattern shows up as damage to every world - a black road appears running through the worlds, leading from the Courts of Chaos to the Court of Amber.
In Amber terms D&D magician would have his or her powers in most worlds (possibly all), but in some they might not work as expected because the world runs on different rules.
The family of Amber simply have super-human resilience and strength and the ability to walk between the worlds leaving any trouble behind unless it is capable of following.


In the case of the D&D Wizard, we have some information regarding the source of their power, the way it functions (using particular dimensions / planes for certain spells), and (at least in 2e) rules for worlds that do not contain that power source. Sure (assuming that Gygax wasn't a scientist reporting his findings of reality) it's initially created by fiat, but further rules need not be created whole cloth.

Similarly, Shadowrun explains the source of magical power as requiring an ambient life force energy - take that away, no magic. It would take fiat - or, at least, someone more knowledgeable on the insert workings of Shadowrun mechanics than myself - to answer questions like what this life force field interacts with / why magic comes and goes in the world of Shadowrun, or whether life forms native to other realities would create a suitable life force field to interact with whatever else is required for Shadowrun magic, etc.
Except - the decision on what powers work in which world when things are moved from their home world entirely comes down to who is doing the adaptation. For example, in the Dark Sun (A)D&D setting most wizard magic does come from draining life force - so would this work in Shadowrun? Well that depends on what the person arranging the transfer wants. Just because both magics work powered by life force does not mean that they can use the life force from the other world - that is, again, an author's call.


What are the underlying mechanics for gunpowder not working in Amber?Different physical laws.
Note, an Amber worldwaker changing worlds usually starts by changing the colour of the sky as it is an easy thing to work on... Since the sky is blue because the atmosphere scatters the blue light out of the white sunlight (which makes the sun look yellow) that's actually a change on a fairly fundamental level, but it is also explicitly an easy thing to change! Other worlds may not even be planets (especially close to Chaos - past the Courts it is almost a given that they are not.)


On the subject of Batman - he would have a little trouble in WoD Dark Ages / Crusade (and perhaps Amber?) where his technology explicitly wouldn't work. More of a "gotcha" moment than an inability to adapt, however.I wasn't thinking of his technology - good point, but more that fact he is very fit and tries (usually) to think his way through problems and adapts very quickly.

[Spore]

Pathfinder has a third power source beyond arcane and divine - occult. Basically, that's more "reality hacking" than using magic and even non-casters can conduct occult rituals for things like plane traveling.

Occult is always my default "explanation" for any kind of magic though. You unravel a secret of your universe and are then able to cast spells because of that.

My problem with your thought experiment would be: "If a wizard cannot cast spells in the switched universe, why would a warrior be able to hold a weapon/sword?" For all we know the next universe over could have completely different physical properties. The skinny teenager with the impossibly large sword could have trouble holding even a long hunting knife here.

So, how would travel the realms "best" is a question we cannot answer. Neither do we have a certain ruleset for participants (mundanes? casters? which system? which worlds?) nor for the target reality/planet/whatever.

It is like asking: "Who would win a fight? Non-batman Bruce Wayne or Superman without a yellow sun? Only that silly comics like that have a smaller and well documented reference window and make a comparison actually viable.

Still, my final verdict stands: Everything will behave as the author wants it to behave. See comics for that.

[Earthwalker]

On Shadowrun Magic

I recall it works by the mage drawing power from astral space, focusing it through a formula in their heads and that makes the spell work.
Shadowrun Mages needs astral space to exist for their magic to work. This needs a life force on the planet but also something extra. Magic moves in cycles in the world of shadowrun and in times of no magic there is life but no astral space.

I would also say a DnD wizard turning up has a chance of working magic but would have to re-learn everything. Also they might not have the genetic markers for working shadowrun magic as DnD wizards are the book learners.


My Choice of Reality Travelers...

Any possibility rated person from TORG the RPG.
Its an RPG about traveling different realities and about them invading earth. Plenty of rules about how to keep your own magic / tech / spirituality with you as you travel to more primitive worlds. As well all possibility rated people being able to force their world rules on the new reality they have shifted into.

[caden_varn]

Torg characters specifically get the ability to alter reality, and the whole setting is about different realities invading earth, so they should be able to work in any setting. I'd suggest coming from Orrorsh to get high magic & tech. Go easy on the cyberware though - you don't want to disconnect in a low tech realm if you have a cybernetic heart...

[Quertus]

Not exactly. IIRC (and I haven't read the Amber books in maybe 40 years for the original series of books, and at least 25 for the second series, so it's quite possible that I don't remember correctly) they essentially create reality by walking the pattern, so reality will conform pretty much to their expectations.

If they can only manipulate the pattern of realities which obey their known laws of order, then it sounds like an ability which would be useless in any reality not created in Amber.

If so, the questions are: how long did it take their ancestors to learn these abilities, do they still possess the tools necessary to learn these abilities for new worlds, and how likely are they to die when their skills fail them?


Mastermind manipulators probably do the best. They can build on the powers of others wherever they end up. As long as they adapt to psychology and cultural changes, at least.

Let's not forget potential language (and species!) barriers, too. There's a lot to consider when reality travel isn't in "everything just works" easy mode.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If they can only manipulate the pattern of realities which obey their known laws of order, then it sounds like an ability which would be useless in any reality not created in Amber.

If so, the questions are: how long did it take their ancestors to learn these abilities, do they still possess the tools necessary to learn these abilities for new worlds, and how likely are they to die when their skills fail them?


The way it's presented is that they're moving between shadows in the light projected from the Pattern (and from the Logros). Its effectively a multi-verse and it's clear that all other worlds are shadows of those two (of Amber and of the Courts).

Whether they're actively creating those shadows or just finding them is a matter of in-universe debate.

The main character of the first set of books becomes amnesiac after getting shot a bunch of times on Earth (which is just another shadow) and left for dead. He relearns how to shadow-walk slowly over time. It seems to be normally taught by a more experienced shadow-walker after you walk the pattern. Learning it on their own is doable but dangerous.

[hamishspence]

What about Psions? Aren't their powers self-contained? Well, Time of Troubles says no. Despite the seeming independence of psionics from magic in 2e (they work in an anti-magic zone, for example), when the weave went haywire, Psions suffered, too.

The impression I got from the R. A. Salvatore Drizzt book covering that period (Siege of Darkness) was that psionics worked fine for most of the Time of Troubles - and it was only at the very end - when arcane and divine magic were restored to normal, that psionics started working differently - catching House Oblodra by surprise.

A point was made of how illithid psionicists had figured out how to access their powers again very soon after the change, and that House Oblodra would have figured out how if they'd been given enough time - but they weren't:


K'yorl was as intelligent as any drow in Menzoberranzan. Her powers of concentration were unparalleled. She felt the psionic strength within her mind, the powers that allowed her to walk through walls or yank the beating heart from an enemy's chest. They were there, deep in her mind, but she could not bring them forth. She continued to blame herself, her lack of concentration in the face of disaster. She even punched herself on the side of the head, as if that physical jarring would knock out some magical manifestation.
Her efforts were futile. As the Time of Troubles had come to its end, as the tapestry of magic in the Realms had rewoven, many rippling side-effects had occurred. Throughout the Realms, dead magic zones had appeared, areas where no spells would function, or, even worse, where no spells would function as intended. Another of those side-effects involved psionic powers, the magiclike powers of the mind. The strength was still there, as K'yorl sensed, but bringing forth that strength required a different mental route than before.
The illithids, as Methil had informed Matron Baenre, had already discerned that route, and their powers were functioning nearly as completely as before. But they were an entire race of psionicists, and a race possessed of communal intelligence. The illithids had already made the necessary adjustments to accessing their psionic powers, but K'yorl Odran and her once powerful family had not.
So the matron of the third house sat in the darkness, eyes squeezed tightly shut, concentrating. She heard Baenre's call, knew that if she did not go to Baenre, Baenre would soon come to her.
Given time, K'yorl would have sorted through the mental puzzle. Given a month, perhaps, she would have begun to bring forth her powers once more.
K'yorl didn't have a month; K'yorl didn't have an hour.

[gkathellar]

This is very nearly a nonsense question, because putting aside the question of whether you take your power with you is the question of whether your power means anything in a universe based on fundamentally different principles than your own. What happens when you send a 40k psyker to a reality where their emotions aren't a form of hyperspace phenomena? What does one of the Solar Exalted look like when you port them to a universe where people are made out of atoms? Does Faerun even have ambient life energy of the type a Shadowrun mage relies on? Does trying to call down the Atlantean Watchtowers in a game of Call of Cthulhu even draw the notice of the local evil space gods? Can you hack into the reality of Nentir Vale, or are the exploits just too different? You can speculate about these questions, but they don't have answers, because their component parts are grounded in different sets of universal law.

[Lord Torath]

No, I'm pretty sure a) 2e psionics stop functioning on dead magic worlds; I don't recall reading this. Can you cite a source?

I know that 2E Krynn doesn't have any native psionicists (with the possible exception of the Shadow People under Sanction), but newcomers to the planet retain their psionic powers. But Krynn can hardly be called "Magic Dead" in any case. At least through the end of 2E.

[Lapak]

I would, with reservations, put forward oWoD Mages. If the old World of Darkness setting explicitly adopted the Mage meta-story as canon, I would assume that they might become powerless in a reality not created by consensus. But it didn't the Vampire, Werewolf, etc. views of reality were equally 'true,' but Mages function the same way regardless. It doesn't matter whether or not blood sacrifice normally creates magical energy in a given reality; if a Verbena believes it hard enough then blood sacrifice makes magic anyway because their power source isn't actually blood, it is their ability to reshape the reality they are in.

[Nifft]

Wow, I had no idea that these concepts were actually covered in 1e. So it's been a D&D tradition even longer than I'd realized.

2e was a simplification and systematization of earlier ideas.

But it's not like 1e can take special creative credit either -- everything in 1e was surely just some guy's home game attempt at adapting an idea from some Sci-Fi / Fantasy novel, which then got written down and sold.

Concepts are old.

-- -- --

In terms of who travels best, maybe it'd be a Planeswalker from Magic: the Gathering?

I don't know enough about the M:tG setting mechanics, but from the bits I do know it feels like travel to hostile planes is their métier.

[Quertus]

Quoting the small portion here in the hopes that someone can answer some/all of the questions. I read 4e cover to cover and can't recall an answer to any of them.

Sadness.


Pathfinder has a third power source beyond arcane and divine - occult. Basically, that's more "reality hacking" than using magic and even non-casters can conduct occult rituals for things like plane traveling.

And 3e had rituals that even muggles could perform, too. Doesn't mean that they don't rely on "the weave", though.


I'd go with the Excession, from the eponymous novel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excession) by Ian M. Banks, since that's a device/being specifically designed to transition between universes and is capable of unleashing galaxy-destroying power.

:smalleek:


every world

This better than anything demonstrates why their powers are tied to the worlds of Amber, and would cease functioning elsewhere.


I wasn't thinking of his technology - good point, but more that fact he is very fit and tries (usually) to think his way through problems and adapts very quickly.

He had issues, like needing to breathe, that make him suboptimal. But, outside of a few rate worlds that actually actively negate technology (your standard D&D world turns it into an artifact), he should find his existence fairly consistent as a reality traveler.


My problem with your thought experiment would be: "If a wizard cannot cast spells in the switched universe, why would a warrior be able to hold a weapon/sword?" For all we know the next universe over could have completely different physical properties.

It is like asking: "Who would win a fight? Non-batman Bruce Wayne or Superman without a yellow sun? Only that silly comics like that have a smaller and well documented reference window and make a comparison actually viable.

Still, my final verdict stands: Everything will behave as the author wants it to behave. See comics for that.

Well, most such stories are about characters traveling top worlds with, at least, similar base laws of physics. A character made of matter, traveling to a reality with no matter, would likely respond as though exposed to a vacuum. Rarely makes a good story (or a long-lived protagonist!).

I'm trying to see how much we can dig into RAW of various systems / realities to predict their interaction if we remove the "it just works" hand waving.


Shadowrun Mages needs astral space to exist for their magic to work. .

Dang.


I would also say a DnD wizard turning up has a chance of working magic but would have to re-learn everything. Also they might not have the genetic markers for working shadowrun magic as DnD wizards are the book learners..

Agreed. They'd be boned.


My Choice of Reality Travelers...

Any possibility rated person from TORG the RPG.
Its an RPG about traveling different realities and about them invading earth. Plenty of rules about how to keep your own magic / tech / spirituality with you as you travel to more primitive worlds. As well all possibility rated people being able to force their world rules on the new reality they have shifted into.


Torg characters specifically get the ability to alter reality, and the whole setting is about different realities invading earth, so they should be able to work in any setting. I'd suggest coming from Orrorsh to get high magic & tech. Go easy on the cyberware though - you don't want to disconnect in a low tech realm if you have a cybernetic heart...

Sounds like a strong candidate.

What are their mechanics for how they impose their reality on others?

[Quertus]

This is very nearly a nonsense question, because putting aside the question of whether you take your power with you is the question of whether your power means anything in a universe based on fundamentally different principles than your own. What happens when you send a 40k psyker to a reality where their emotions aren't a form of hyperspace phenomena? What does one of the Solar Exalted look like when you port them to a universe where people are made out of atoms? Does Faerun even have ambient life energy of the type a Shadowrun mage relies on? Does trying to call down the Atlantean Watchtowers in a game of Call of Cthulhu even draw the notice of the local evil space gods? Can you hack into the reality of Nentir Vale, or are the exploits just too different? You can speculate about these questions, but they don't have answers, because their component parts are grounded in different sets of universal law.

My impressions:

40k psykers are hosed.

I didn't actually know that Exalted wasn't made of matter. But they aren't being "ported" in the traditional sense - that's the key. So they continue to not be made of matter.

Faerun probably has the ambient life energy of the type a Shadowrun mage needs, but I doubt that their "astral" planes are analogous.

No, there is no reason the CoC aliens would even notice calls to Atlantean Watchtowers .


I don't recall reading this. Can you cite a source?

I know that 2E Krynn doesn't have any native psionicists (with the possible exception of the Shadow People under Sanction), but newcomers to the planet retain their psionic powers. But Krynn can hardly be called "Magic Dead" in any case. At least through the end of 2E.

AFB - lemme get back to you.

Good call on pointing out how "no native" =/= "not supported".


The impression I got from the R. A. Salvatore Drizzt book covering that period (Siege of Darkness) was that psionics worked fine for most of the Time of Troubles - and it was only at the very end - when arcane and divine magic were restored to normal, that psionics started working differently - catching House Oblodra by surprise.

That would make it reliant, but reliant differently. It cares about the weave. But not the same way arcane magic does.


I would, with reservations, put forward oWoD Mages. If the old World of Darkness setting explicitly adopted the Mage meta-story as canon, I would assume that they might become powerless in a reality not created by consensus. But it didn't the Vampire, Werewolf, etc. views of reality were equally 'true,' but Mages function the same way regardless. It doesn't matter whether or not blood sacrifice normally creates magical energy in a given reality; if a Verbena believes it hard enough then blood sacrifice makes magic anyway because their power source isn't actually blood, it is their ability to reshape the reality they are in.

Yeah, oWoD (esp mages) were third on my list to examine.

Why does Clan Tremere exist? It exists because House Tremere noticed that, as belief shifted, their immortality spells began failing. This provides evidence that, while their instantaneous effects may work just fine in other realities, their dwoemers are suspect.

Further, division of magick into the 9 spheres is totally arbitrary - different styles of mages used to have their own pillars. Makes me curious what would happen if mages from different eras were to time travel, to what extent their magic would function.

EDIT: as for other splats, oWoD explicitly describes them as "carrying their reality with them". So, although poorly suited for reality travel in the first place, they should at least retain consistency.


In terms of who travels best, maybe it'd be a Planeswalker from Magic: the Gathering?

I don't know enough about the M:tG setting mechanics, but from the bits I do know it feels like travel to hostile planes is their métier.

Yeah, I think that they would do well.

Their power is technically external, but their ability to have that power, and draw on it across dimensions, is internal.

[dps]

If they can only manipulate the pattern of realities which obey their known laws of order, then it sounds like an ability which would be useless in any reality not created in Amber.

Well, no, in-story that's a bit like saying that their abilities would be useless in any reality which doesn't exist. In-story, ALL realities are reflections of Amber (or of the Courts of Chaos, though apparently most Amberites don't even know that the Courts exist during the first series of books--but that could be a matter of an unreliable narrator).


If so, the questions are: how long did it take their ancestors to learn these abilities

IIRC, there's nothing in the books that give us any clues to that.


do they still possess the tools necessary to learn these abilities for new worlds

Yeah, because basically if you can think of or imagine a place, they can just walk to it. They do have to see what they're doing, but they can regenerate their eyes even if they're gouged or burned out (though it takes a long time), so blinding them only keeps them from using their ability for so long.


and how likely are they to die when their skills fail them?


If their skills fail them (which can't really happen unless they're blinded-but, again they can regenerate their eyes--magically held somehow or they're suffering from amnesia, as the narrator is at the start of the first book), they're just stuck where they are. How likely to die at that point depends on how dangerous the place they're stuck at is. And they are physically very tough--the narrator of the first series survives the plague when he's stuck on our earth, and that was IIRC after being shot and poisoned. They also either don't age or age extremely slowly--the narrator who lost his memory was stuck on our earth from the time of the plague (I think it was the plague that hit England in the 1660s) until what was contemporary times when the story was written, so early 1970s.

[Fiery Diamond]

This is very nearly a nonsense question, because putting aside the question of whether you take your power with you is the question of whether your power means anything in a universe based on fundamentally different principles than your own. What happens when you send a 40k psyker to a reality where their emotions aren't a form of hyperspace phenomena? What does one of the Solar Exalted look like when you port them to a universe where people are made out of atoms? Does Faerun even have ambient life energy of the type a Shadowrun mage relies on? Does trying to call down the Atlantean Watchtowers in a game of Call of Cthulhu even draw the notice of the local evil space gods? Can you hack into the reality of Nentir Vale, or are the exploits just too different? You can speculate about these questions, but they don't have answers, because their component parts are grounded in different sets of universal law.

I agree with this sentiment. Your destination's qualities matter as much as your traveler's qualities. You can't really answer what happens when incompatible things collide without some form of author fiat... or a destination world specifically designed to answer those questions. Beyond that, there's the issue of many stories having multiverses of their own, not simply a single universe... for travel outside of that, we need both some sort of term for multiverse of multiverses (omniverse?) and some agreed-upon ground rules for how multiverses interact, leading us back to fiat.

For an example of a designed destination: I've been writing fantasy for almost two decades (unfortunately I rarely ever finish my stories, but that's another topic entirely) and nearly all my stories take place in a shared multiverse, even though I never make reference to this outside of crossover stories (which are usually freeform RP with my friend). All the various worlds (or sets of related worlds) are connected by a thing/place/??? called the Nexus, which is what makes interworld travel possible. My multiverse's version of our Earth is special (but not unique) in that it has no inherent magic, but it is highly morphic: magic from other worlds functions perfectly fine there, overwriting local physical law without causing any sort of butterfly effect. There are actually multiple Earths, each with that same property, but the others have been noticeably altered by large-scale magic while Earth Prime (so to speak) has only seen small-scale, easily dismissable (by the world at large, if not those directly affected) events.

So if you have a suitable destination world, you can talk about the subject. If not... it's really up to fiat.

[Luccan]

I don't think this question can be answered. I mean, you have a few, which come from books/media that assume all realities follow the rules of their books, but beyond that, there is not answer. If we assume all powers work in all universes, whoever has the best powers. If we assume they don't, but physics works the same or similarly enough, probably some elite reality traveler who has trained to adapt to slightly different physics. If we assume physics doesn't work the same, the only an entity with the ability to ignore physics wins, but that goes back to assuming their power works in all universes. So... probably a gag character.

[Florian]

@Quertus:

The PF, specifically the extended Golarion cosmology is a bit different:
Basically, all "game worlds", even those of different game systems, are part of the Dark Tapestry (aka Prima Material Plane). There're "darker" and "lighter" regions that will define how close or far away the regions of the Dark Tapestry are to the underlying building blocks of the cosmos, aka Inner and Outer planes, which will define if magic is available and to what extend.
It´s also very specific that there're no "right" or "wrong" means to access magic, treating the topic closer to how oWoD Mages or Shadowrun handles their traditions. For example, the 3.5E magic system is called "Sin Magic" and would work alongside the PF magic systems without a fuzz, same as with sphere magic. Occult is as definitely non-magic power source that even works in the "darkest" regions of the Dark Tapestry and would include things like CoC-style "magic". Alhazred is shown as a "Theoretical Wizard" who has the basic knowledge put down, but can´t use anything but occult rituals while on Earth.

[Earthwalker]

Sadness.

[snip] Talking about TORG character

Sounds like a strong candidate.

What are their mechanics for how they impose their reality on others?

Well imposing your reality on others in the game is what the bad guys are doing and it involves connecting your reality with theres and devices to stabilize it. Normally laid out in 60 mile triangles (from what I remember) anyone normal in the area converts to the new reality.

Those aren't the people I am putting forward for reality hoping tho.

Possibility rated characters (the PC) have the ability to keep their own reality and carry it with them (they get a reality skill). So even if you are in a world where magic doesn't work, you can still use your spells for you.

Add into the list things artifacts of certain realities that are hard points for that reality.

Realities in game had ratings on... Tech, spiritual, social and magic. They also had hard coded rules. PC used either their own rating and rules or could dip and use the ratings / rules of the reality they were in.

It was a game system about crashing realities so of course its going to handle reality skippers well.

I also loved it back in the day, just for the idea of how it worked.

[caden_varn]

OK - in Torg, if you confront a threat from another reality and stand against it, instead of cowering or running away, your connection to your own reality might reinforce, making you possibility-rated (or a stormer, or storm knight, due to the intense storms that form on the borders between realities). This allows you to consciously manipulate reality to increase your chances of success (ie roll extra dice on skill checks), decrease damage taken, and take your personal axioms around with you (technological, magical, spiritual & social). So even if a realm does not allow magic, you can try to override this to use magic anyway. It does have some drawbacks - you run the risk of disconnecting from your reality, which forces you to work at the current realms axioms until you can reconnect (normally not too difficult, although you either need to be in your core reality, or have the tool that caused you to disconnect in hand. This can be tricky if, as happened to one of my group, you disconnect throwing a grenade into the pacific ocean).
You also get protection against being converted to a different reality. Someone without a reinforced connection who enters a different reality or is in an area invaded be a new reality is at risk of being converted to the new reality. This will rewrite memories & skills, so you may forget how to use a gun or drive a car, but suddenly be able to ride a horse and shoot a bow. If you get converted a second time, you are likely to die, unless someone has been able to reinfuse you with a little possibility energy (not an easy process).
Possibility-rated people from different realities can attempt to convert each other to their reality, stripping them of their possibility energy in the process, but they cannot do this to normals - their link to their reality is just to weak for the stormer to latch onto. A stormer can expend some energy to temporarily create a bubble where only their axioms will work, which may have the same effect.

But if you really want to inflict your reality on others, you need a darkness device. Each reality has exactly one - a sentient malevolent artifact that seeks a powerful warlord-type to bond with & invade other realities to drain their possibility energy. The device gives its wielder a number of abilities, including the ability to cross or send others into different realities, either subtly, or via a maelstrom bridge which brings their reality (and armies) over to the invaded reality.

Earth has a particularly strong reality in the game, so 7 other realms go together to invade - The Gaunt man invaded Indonesia with his Victorian horror reality, Orrorsh. Dr Mobius invaded Egypt with his silver age of superheroes reality, forming the Nile Empire. Aysle invaded the UK & Scandinavia with a high fantasy reality. Their friends, a medieval inquisition society invaded France, but due to complex stuff, picked up cyberpunk technology during the invasion (the darkness device liked it, basically), becoming the Cyberpapacy.
North America lost a lot of territory, along with it's president & VP to the Living Land, a low-tech dinosaurs & cavemen reality. Japan got invaded by a reality very close to earth axioms, a bit lower in magic & spirit, a little higher in tech. A scheming superspies reality called Marketplace.
Reality 7 got shafted by Marketplace, who helped the Russians remove their stelae (which allow the invading reality to withstand the pressure of the invaded reality), so when they dropped their maelstrom bridge, Earth's stronger reality just rolled straight up it and caused a lot of chaos. They reappeared later, invading LA mostly to screw over Marketplace that was trying to expand their.. A high tech, magic & spirit realm populated mostly by cyberdemons and their human slaves.

It's a fun, if often chaotic game, once you understand & can correct for the balnaces inherent in the system :smallbiggrin:

[caden_varn]

Well imposing your reality on others in the game is what the bad guys are doing and it involves connecting your reality with theres and devices to stabilize it. Normally laid out in 60 mile triangles (from what I remember) anyone normal in the area converts to the new reality.

Those aren't the people I am putting forward for reality hoping tho.

Possibility rated characters (the PC) have the ability to keep their own reality and carry it with them (they get a reality skill). So even if you are in a world where magic doesn't work, you can still use your spells for you.

Add into the list things artifacts of certain realities that are hard points for that reality.

Realities in game had ratings on... Tech, spiritual, social and magic. They also had hard coded rules. PC used either their own rating and rules or could dip and use the ratings / rules of the reality they were in.

It was a game system about crashing realities so of course its going to handle reality skippers well.

I also loved it back in the day, just for the idea of how it worked.

And not sure how I managed to miss this post which summarises it better than I managed. But I think the main takeaway is - for the best chance of surviving (and conquering) a different realm, be a High Lord! Then you just need to survive your darkness device. And best of luck to you doing that...

[Quertus]

Well, no, in-story that's a bit like saying that their abilities would be useless in any reality which doesn't exist. In-story, ALL realities are reflections of Amber (or of the Courts of Chaos, though apparently most Amberites don't even know that the Courts exist during the first series of books--but that could be a matter of an unreliable narrator).

But, from what you said about every world - there's worlds small enough that one can just look around, and say "nope", from which I can only conclude that there exist worlds, including, say, my D&D world, that is not a world of Amber.

As I imagine any system's / setting's assertion that all worlds belong to it will fail for similar reasons. Any fact that they assert about all worlds, one need only provide a single counter example to disprove their claim.


Your destination's qualities matter as much as your traveler's qualities.

Absolutely true.


You can't really answer what happens when incompatible things collide without some form of author fiat... or a destination world specifically designed to answer those questions. Beyond that, there's the issue of many stories having multiverses of their own, not simply a single universe... for travel outside of that, we need both some sort of term for multiverse of multiverses (omniverse?) and some agreed-upon ground rules for how multiverses interact, leading us back to fiat.

We are accustomed to fiat of either "it just works" or "rebuild it in the new system". I am asking, what if we take the hard road, attempt to remove as much fiat as possible, and instead focus on the underlying mechanics, asking, "how should these interact?".


So if you have a suitable destination world, you can talk about the subject. If not... it's really up to fiat.

No, that misses the point. I'm explicitly looking at unsuitable destination worlds. I'm asking how should reality travel fail.


I don't think this question can be answered. I mean, you have a few, which come from books/media that assume all realities follow the rules of their books, but beyond that, there is not answer.

Actually, those are the non-answer. :smalltongue:


If we assume all powers work in all universes,

Nope. Totally not assuming that.

Asking, "how do these powers actually work?", followed by, "what assumptions about the universe are required for them to work?", followed by "which universes have such requirements?".

For example, D&D magic requires the weave. In any reality without the weave, D&D Wizards are just smart guys in pajamas. In realities without matter, they'll likely respond as though exposed to a vacuum. Etc etc.


@Quertus:

The PF, specifically the extended Golarion cosmology is a bit different:
Basically, all "game worlds", even those of different game systems, are part of the Dark Tapestry (aka Prima Material Plane).

And we're back to my suspicion about any author who tries to make assertions about all game worlds, but ok...


There're "darker" and "lighter" regions that will define how close or far away the regions of the Dark Tapestry are to the underlying building blocks of the cosmos, aka Inner and Outer planes, which will define if magic is available and to what extend.

How far pieces of the prime material are... From the inner and outer planes? Well, that really turns D&D cosmology on its head for me.

And... this somehow determines if (D&D) magic is available? :smallconfused: Please, explain why PF ties (non-divine) magic to access to the inner and outer planes.



It´s also very specific that there're no "right" or "wrong" means to access magic, treating the topic closer to how oWoD Mages or Shadowrun handles their traditions. For example, the 3.5E magic system is called "Sin Magic" and would work alongside the PF magic systems without a fuzz, same as with sphere magic. Occult is as definitely non-magic power source that even works in the "darkest" regions of the Dark Tapestry and would include things like CoC-style "magic". Alhazred is shown as a "Theoretical Wizard" who has the basic knowledge put down, but can´t use anything but occult rituals while on Earth.

So, PF tries to assert that, if any magic works, all magic works? Since there are worlds where that is not true, PF sounds like it fails at claiming all worlds under its umbrella.

Although, I must say, I like its inclusive umbrella. Just to make sure I'm hearing you right, by RAW, my 2e Wild Mage would function just fine in PF? Or, a PF nobleman could, by RAW, have a Trompe L’oeil of a 2e D&D Wizard, who could have a Simulacrum of a... Chaos Troll Cultist of Tzeentch... And said Simulacrum's magic should work just fine? If I ever play PF, I think I know what my character will look like. :smallwink:


Well imposing your reality on others in the game is what the bad guys are doing and it involves connecting your reality with theres and devices to stabilize it. Normally laid out in 60 mile triangles (from what I remember) anyone normal in the area converts to the new reality.

These devices would fail on any worlds which actively disable technology (although it sounds like the villains probably have the "skill" to ignore that...)


Those aren't the people I am putting forward for reality hoping tho.

Possibility rated characters (the PC) have the ability to keep their own reality and carry it with them (they get a reality skill). So even if you are in a world where magic doesn't work, you can still use your spells for you.

Add into the list things artifacts of certain realities that are hard points for that reality.

Realities in game had ratings on... Tech, spiritual, social and magic. They also had hard coded rules. PC used either their own rating and rules or could dip and use the ratings / rules of the reality they were in.

It was a game system about crashing realities so of course its going to handle reality skippers well.

I also loved it back in the day, just for the idea of how it worked.

So... the PCs have the ability to impose their rules of reality "because"?

It's a skill. A skill that anyone can use? A skill that lets you use magic (and technology and...) even in worlds where it normally wouldn't work? Can anyone use this skill? Can you only use it to impose your home world, or the rules of any worlds? Can you use it to disable things that wouldn't work in your home world - "That gun can't hurt me - I'm too primitive for it."?

It sounds like a fun system to play in, but I'm not certain that it will answer quotations about the underlying mechanics to my satisfaction.

[Quertus]

Ah. So, in Torg, there's a trigger event which changes a person, at which point they can learn the skill. Ok. It seems that the wisest course of action is to expose the entirety of your population to this trigger event (via staged "invasions" by a friendly reality).

[Earthwalker]

And not sure how I managed to miss this post which summarises it better than I managed. But I think the main takeaway is - for the best chance of surviving (and conquering) a different realm, be a High Lord! Then you just need to survive your darkness device. And best of luck to you doing that...

Kinda glad you gave a longer description because...




So... the PCs have the ability to impose their rules of reality "because"?

It's a skill. A skill that anyone can use? A skill that lets you use magic (and technology and...) even in worlds where it normally wouldn't work? Can anyone use this skill? Can you only use it to impose your home world, or the rules of any worlds? Can you use it to disable things that wouldn't work in your home world - "That gun can't hurt me - I'm too primitive for it."?

It sounds like a fun system to play in, but I'm not certain that it will answer quotations about the underlying mechanics to my satisfaction.

In essence there are in game rules for how you become possibility rated and how you get the skill. The skill is about keeping your own reality in the face of a new one being imposed on you not really about imposing it on others (High Lords and Darkness devices aside)

Lets try to answer those questions.

Its a skill only possibility rated people can use (they need to have contacted multiple realities)
It lets you use your own reality's rules / axioms not the one you are in.
It does allot you to impose your own world on YOURSELF.

Its more I'm a primitive I cant use a gun. More than, that gun wont work on me. If you are on core earth guns work fine on primitives, if the living land (the primitive reality) over rights core earth. Then guns aren't going to work (That's how they invade)
You can use reality to get close to things and stop them working, you can create a reality bubble around you of your home reality. (A primitive standing next to a nuclear bomb and reality bubbling will stop the bomb.

In conclusion its a game about realities clashing. It gives you rules for all this works it doesn't spend a lot of time discussion the why and the how.

It does it so you can have people from different realities running around being heroes.

[Earthwalker]

Ah. So, in Torg, there's a trigger event which changes a person, at which point they can learn the skill. Ok. It seems that the wisest course of action is to expose the entirety of your population to this trigger event (via staged "invasions" by a friendly reality).

The artifacts that do this are called darkness devices for a reason.
They want their reality to grow.

"Friendly" reality is not a thing.

You will make some possibility rated people the vast majority of the people will just change to the new reality.
Getting people back isn't as simple as turning off the new reality. Again for game reason destroying invading reality will just kill the people that changed (as they cant take the change back) you can make it possible by converting them to your cause and then changing the reality... (Its kind of like Earthdawn in that you have to do heroic things and sway the population to your side... there were rules)

[caden_varn]

In theory you could, but the only people who could stage such an invasion are high lords with their darkness devices, which are sentient, malevolent and exist only to absorb the possibilityenergy of other cosms. Good luck finding a friendly one. You'd be better off becoming high lord of your realm and invading somewhere else. You don't need to be in your own reality to become possibility-rated IIRC, so your troops will have as much chance of transforming as the defenders.

[Heliomance]

How has no-one mentioned MtG Planeswalkers yet? Again, this is explicitly their powerset.

[Nifft]

In terms of who travels best, maybe it'd be a Planeswalker from Magic: the Gathering?


How has no-one mentioned MtG Planeswalkers yet? We did.

But please do go into more detail if you know any MtG lore about magic-dead or mana-dead planes.

[Arbane]

But, from what you said about every world - there's worlds small enough that one can just look around, and say "nope", from which I can only conclude that there exist worlds, including, say, my D&D world, that is not a world of Amber.

As I imagine any system's / setting's assertion that all worlds belong to it will fail for similar reasons. Any fact that they assert about all worlds, one need only provide a single counter example to disprove their claim.


That's kind of a useless statement, since by definition, a fictional character is a character in their own story, and a game character is a character in their own game. If they travel somewhere new, it is, by definition, part of their story or game.

(Outside of fanfic, anyway, but that has NO RULES.)



We are accustomed to fiat of either "it just works" or "rebuild it in the new system". I am asking, what if we take the hard road, attempt to remove as much fiat as possible, and instead focus on the underlying mechanics, asking, "how should these interact?".


That way lies madness, tears, and Trekkin's Gary Stu GM. But I repeat myself.



No, that misses the point. I'm explicitly looking at unsuitable destination worlds. I'm asking how should reality travel fail.


Ravenloft?
Being in a singular reality without any alternates to visit?
Arrival being instantly fatal?


And to answer someone else: Exalted are made of matter, it's just that in Creation matter is made of Essence, not atoms.

[Zombimode]

For example, D&D magic requires the weave.

You keep mentioning this. The Weave is a specific part of the Forgotten Realms. There is no Weave in Eberron, Greyhawk, Mystara, Freeport, Rokugan, Dark Sun, Lankhmar or Dragonlance.
You could argue that some of these settings are part of the greater Planescape cosmology so that they are techincally in the same (meta-)setting as the FR. But that still leaves out things like Eberron and probably countless homebrew settings that are NOT part of Planescape.

[Lapak]

But, from what you said about every world - there's worlds small enough that one can just look around, and say "nope", from which I can only conclude that there exist worlds, including, say, my D&D world, that is not a world of Amber.
I have no idea how you reach that conclusion from that starting point. Because some shadow worlds are small, there are worlds that are not shadows? I am missing a link in that logic chain.

Amusingly, since our real Earth on which the book was written is called out as a shadow of Amber, your D&D world is explicitly a part of it... as a D&D campaign at the very least. ;-)

[Quertus]

You keep mentioning this. The Weave is a specific part of the Forgotten Realms. There is no Weave in Eberron, Greyhawk, Mystara, Freeport, Rokugan, Dark Sun, Lankhmar or Dragonlance.
You could argue that some of these settings are part of the greater Planescape cosmology so that they are techincally in the same (meta-)setting as the FR. But that still leaves out things like Eberron and probably countless homebrew settings that are NOT part of Planescape.

I am using "the weave" as a shorthand for "whatever the **** D&D mages need in order to cast their spells". The term "the weave" has the advantage of being a named entity with clear influence over the availability (and stability) of magic. Now, back in my day, many tables dubbed this needful thing the "elemental plane of magic". Which is an equally obfuscating term, given how afaik it isn't directly related to planar geography. Apparently, PF begs to differ.


I have no idea how you reach that conclusion from that starting point. Because some shadow worlds are small, there are worlds that are not shadows? I am missing a link in that logic chain.

Amusingly, since our real Earth on which the book was written is called out as a shadow of Amber, your D&D world is explicitly a part of it... as a D&D campaign at the very least. ;-)

Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but I took you to say that, because of the history of Amber, there was a property that was shared by all worlds of Amber. Yet, there exist worlds small enough to actively perceive that they lack this property, thereby proving the existence of worlds that are not worlds of Amber.

Not that that terribly contradicts the beliefs of Amber as I understood you to explain them, mind, as those worlds might simply be beyond the courts of chaos.

[Nifft]

I am using "the weave" as a shorthand for "whatever the **** D&D mages need in order to cast their spells". The term "the weave" has the advantage of being a named entity with clear influence over the availability (and stability) of magic.

It does have some semantic disadvantages, though, such as the fact that the Weave is an artificial layer imposed by one specific god to prevent mortal mages from achieving high-valence effects and thus prevent a repeat of That Netherese Foolishness™.

In other words, you're using it to communicate something which you think is generic, but it's also communicating a bunch of other things because it's NOT generic -- it's setting-specific and comes with significant baggage.

[Max_Killjoy]

@Quertus:

The PF, specifically the extended Golarion cosmology is a bit different:
Basically, all "game worlds", even those of different game systems, are part of the Dark Tapestry (aka Prima Material Plane). There're "darker" and "lighter" regions that will define how close or far away the regions of the Dark Tapestry are to the underlying building blocks of the cosmos, aka Inner and Outer planes, which will define if magic is available and to what extend.
It´s also very specific that there're no "right" or "wrong" means to access magic, treating the topic closer to how oWoD Mages or Shadowrun handles their traditions. For example, the 3.5E magic system is called "Sin Magic" and would work alongside the PF magic systems without a fuzz, same as with sphere magic. Occult is as definitely non-magic power source that even works in the "darkest" regions of the Dark Tapestry and would include things like CoC-style "magic". Alhazred is shown as a "Theoretical Wizard" who has the basic knowledge put down, but can´t use anything but occult rituals while on Earth.


That's rather presumptuous of Pathfinder... "we're laying a sort of claim to every setting / secondary world ever, and at least this one bit if "no really it's not magic" magic works even if the setting is specifically one with no magic or occult or anything of the sort".

[Khedrac]

But, from what you said about every world - there's worlds small enough that one can just look around, and say "nope", from which I can only conclude that there exist worlds, including, say, my D&D world, that is not a world of Amber.
And this is why the answer is always author's fiat - whatever the person running the world crossing makes the rules to be determines who is best off.


As I imagine any system's / setting's assertion that all worlds belong to it will fail for similar reasons. Any fact that they assert about all worlds, one need only provide a single counter example to disprove their claim.
Except that is usually pretty much impossible to do. Take the Amber example - presumably you are saying that because there is no black road running through the world we are not a shadow of Amber? So how do you know that there is no black road running through the world? Even requiring it to be on earth this hits two problems:
The only date we really have tied for the event is that it is after the 1970s. Since time does not run at the same speed in all worlds the black road may still be in our future. (Yes, the characters go back to "Earth", but given their travvelling abilities it does not have to be the same earth so it is not a safe reference to say the road must have happened.)
Secondly, the road appears in every world, this does not mean it is any world for any great distance - would you really know if there was a few hundred yards of a black road somewhere on this planet that had not been there before (bear in mind, it could be running along the bottom of the sea)?
Result - your "disproof" of us being a shadow of Amber (assuming I understood it correctly) is not actually provable.

Update - now I think I see I was wrong above - you are saying that there is pocket worlds small enough that one can see no road? Well 2 answer here - first is "are there?" - they may just be insertions into another world and not count as separate; and second - again is time - the road was a temporary discrete event - it may not have happened yet or have happened in the distant past of the hypothetical "small world".


We are accustomed to fiat of either "it just works" or "rebuild it in the new system". I am asking, what if we take the hard road, attempt to remove as much fiat as possible, and instead focus on the underlying mechanics, asking, "how should these interact?". The moment you mix the creations of multiple world-building authors there are no underlying mechanics.
In fact, this can apply with a single author.
For example, the late great Diana Wynne Jones:
In some of her early books (very much childrens' books) the world is one of a number of linked worlds that form a series. When someone from one world travels to another in their series their duplicate in that series cannot co-exist with them and so gets "bounced" into the next world of the series, and the duplicate in that world gets bounced etc. all the way round to the last duplicate being pulled in to fill their place.
In one of her later books (aimed more at adults) when a group visit a nearby world everyone who has a duplicate in that world dies because you cannot have two copies of the same person alive in the world at the same time (the worlds were more closely related that they knew - about half the group died on entry).

The only "common underlying mechanic" is that the worlds support the telling of a story that makes sense to us as human readers.


No, that misses the point. I'm explicitly looking at unsuitable destination worlds. I'm asking how should reality travel fail.
Now this is a very different question - and one we can work with - I have just provided an example answer above.


How far pieces of the prime material are... From the inner and outer planes? Well, that really turns D&D cosmology on its head for me.Less than one Plank unit of distance. They are not any distance away, they are just different.
Actually the part that should blow your mind is the Ethereal plane - it has to be at least 4 dimensional for geography:
It is coterminous with the Prime plane - so every point on the prime plane has a matching point in the ("surface") Ethereal (so if you enter the etheral you can travel up, down, left, right etc. and be moving relative to the prime plane). Yet at the same time, one can travel through the (deep) ethereal to reach the inner planes - and it's a relatively short journey - so it cannot be in the same direction as anything in the prime plane...


And... this somehow determines if (D&D) magic is available? :smallconfused: Please, explain why PF ties (non-divine) magic to access to the inner and outer planes.
Because a Paizo author wanted to claim this.


I am using "the weave" as a shorthand for "whatever the **** D&D mages need in order to cast their spells". The term "the weave" has the advantage of being a named entity with clear influence over the availability (and stability) of magic. Now, back in my day, many tables dubbed this needful thing the "elemental plane of magic". Which is an equally obfuscating term, given how afaik it isn't directly related to planar geography. Apparently, PF begs to differ.Different D&D worlds have made different claims at different times about what it takes to cast magic - one cannot generalise on this.


Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but I took you to say that, because of the history of Amber, there was a property that was shared by all worlds of Amber. Yet, there exist worlds small enough to actively perceive that they lack this property, thereby proving the existence of worlds that are not worlds of Amber.

Not that that terribly contradicts the beliefs of Amber as I understood you to explain them, mind, as those worlds might simply be beyond the courts of chaos.
Actually for me there's a bigger problem - a road passing through infinite worlds has to be infinitely long, yet forces are travelling down the road to attack Amber and they are not taking infinitely long to do so...
We don't know that there are worlds small emough to be able to tell that they are not part of Amber, unless you as author say so - again this is author fiat.

I would suggest giving up this discussion as pretty pointless, instead go back to the question about why inter-universe/multiverse travel might fail and we can have fun coming up with lost of different reasons.

[Lapak]

Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but I took you to say that, because of the history of Amber, there was a property that was shared by all worlds of Amber. Yet, there exist worlds small enough to actively perceive that they lack this property, thereby proving the existence of worlds that are not worlds of Amber.

Not that that terribly contradicts the beliefs of Amber as I understood you to explain them, mind, as those worlds might simply be beyond the courts of chaos.I think you may be confusing me with someone else, because I wasn't the one talking about Amber before this (it's been a decade or more since I've read the books) - I just could not figure out your reasoning there.

[Quertus]

It does have some semantic disadvantages, though, such as the fact that the Weave is an artificial layer imposed by one specific god to prevent mortal mages from achieving high-valence effects and thus prevent a repeat of That Netherese Foolishness™.

In other words, you're using it to communicate something which you think is generic, but it's also communicating a bunch of other things because it's NOT generic -- it's setting-specific and comes with significant baggage.

Sigh. This is like the whole Martial Mundane Muggle fiasco. Got a suggestion for a word with no inherent baggage?


That's rather presumptuous of Pathfinder... "we're laying a sort of claim to every setting / secondary world ever, and at least this one bit if "no really it's not magic" magic works even if the setting is specifically one with no magic or occult or anything of the sort".

Point. Note to self: I need to create a setting that makes lots of these assumptions of "this works in every realm", so that I can play things as fun as the 2e Wild Mage in every game. :smallamused:


And this is why the answer is always author's fiat - whatever the person running the world crossing makes the rules to be determines who is best off.

Sigh. This is as true and as meaningless as "the GM has rule 0". That is, there are rules and logic for how various realities work - or, at least, there should be.

The author shouldn't have to fiat an answer. The rules should cover it.


presumably you are saying that because there is no black road running through the world we are not a shadow of Amber?

would you really know if there was a few hundred yards of a black road somewhere on this planet that had not been there before (bear in mind, it could be running along the bottom of the sea)?
Result - your "disproof" of us being a shadow of Amber (assuming I understood it correctly) is not actually provable.

Update - now I think I see I was wrong above - you are saying that there is pocket worlds small enough that one can see no road? Well 2 answer here - first is "are there?" - they may just be insertions into another world and not count as separate; and second - again is time - the road was a temporary discrete event - it may not have happened yet or have happened in the distant past of the hypothetical "small world".

Yes, numerous settings have worlds this small. Timing, however, is an issue.


The moment you mix the creations of multiple world-building authors there are no underlying mechanics.

Each author had their mechanics. The question is, how well do they telegraph them? Can we follow the rules to predict an outcome?



In fact, this can apply with a single author.
For example, the late great Diana Wynne Jones:
In some of her early books (very much childrens' books) the world is one of a number of linked worlds that form a series. When someone from one world travels to another in their series their duplicate in that series cannot co-exist with them and so gets "bounced" into the next world of the series, and the duplicate in that world gets bounced etc. all the way round to the last duplicate being pulled in to fill their place.
In one of her later books (aimed more at adults) when a group visit a nearby world everyone who has a duplicate in that world dies because you cannot have two copies of the same person alive in the world at the same time (the worlds were more closely related that they knew - about half the group died on entry).

The only "common underlying mechanic" is that the worlds support the telling of a story that makes sense to us as human readers.

Yes, those two sets of world had different underlying mechanics. That's kinda my point.

Now, what happens when they interact?


Less than one Plank unit of distance. They are not any distance away, they are just different.
Actually the part that should blow your mind is the Ethereal plane - it has to be at least 4 dimensional for geography:
It is coterminous with the Prime plane - so every point on the prime plane has a matching point in the ("surface") Ethereal (so if you enter the etheral you can travel up, down, left, right etc. and be moving relative to the prime plane). Yet at the same time, one can travel through the (deep) ethereal to reach the inner planes - and it's a relatively short journey - so it cannot be in the same direction as anything in the prime plane...

This is old hat. I've been dealing in 5 dimensions since original D&D, and dealing with planar layers and recalculating plusses on items and divine caster level based on plans away from source plane since... 2e, IIRC.

It's the idea of tying access to magic to that mess that had me scratching my head as to just how they think magic works.


Because a Paizo author wanted to claim this.

Sigh. Not the kind of answer I wanted, but probably the truth of it! :smalltongue:


Different D&D worlds have made different claims at different times about what it takes to cast magic - one cannot generalise on this.

Really? Sadness. Do you have specifics?


I would suggest giving up this discussion as pretty pointless, instead go back to the question about why inter-universe/multiverse travel might fail and we can have fun coming up with lost of different reasons.

What can I say, I like rules, and the interactions thereof.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The problem, Quertus, is that the mechanics can't interact, and any attempt to reason about that is purple monkey dishwashers. They're all true inside their own sphere but undefined outside that region of concept space. That's pure nasal demon territory.

But giving it a shot anyway, any person who depends on external power or anything beyond the most basic technology (fire, muscle power, etc) is going to have it rough. There's no guarantee that the laws of physics are even slightly similar at the level they'd need to be for advanced tech. You can't even guarantee that chemical reactions work--my setting doesn't even have atoms or molecules. It's all soul stuff, aspected in different ways and in different levels of condensation.

[Max_Killjoy]

The problem, Quertus, is that the mechanics can't interact, and any attempt to reason about that is purple monkey dishwashers. They're all true inside their own sphere but undefined outside that region of concept space. That's pure nasal demon territory.

But giving it a shot anyway, any person who depends on external power or anything beyond the most basic technology (fire, muscle power, etc) is going to have it rough. There's no guarantee that the laws of physics are even slightly similar at the level they'd need to be for advanced tech. You can't even guarantee that chemical reactions work--my setting doesn't even have atoms or molecules. It's all soul stuff, aspected in different ways and in different levels of condensation.

Indeed.

There's no guarantee that an individual won't drop over dead, turn to dust, or explode at the speed of light, when they get to a new "reality". There's no guarantee that the food will be edible or the air breathable. There's no guarantee that the magic or science or whatever that got them there, will function there and allow them to move on. Any "inter-reality" trip is a potential one-way trap or death-sentence.

[NichG]

If you want to construct a globally self-consistent multiverse capable of containing all settings, you're going to have to start at a much more abstract level than things like 'physics' or 'magic'.

You need some equivalent of 'all things which can be specified sufficiently to distinguish them from nonexistence, exist'. Even Multiversal laws like 'anything expressible as math' or 'anything that could be run on a Turing machine' are probably too narrow to cover all of existing human fiction. So you're left with, roughly, if an author could possibly think about it clearly enough to convey the idea of it, it exists somewhere.

Any guarantees you want to get beyond that are going to be statistical ones rather than absolute ones. If it's the multiverse of human fiction, worlds that kill everything on arrival will be less common than worlds where the reality travelers can continue the story. If it's the multiverse of mathematical expressions, you'd better not leave home because the anthropic principle is probably the only reason you're in a life-supporting universe to begin with and 'stepping to the world next door' has about as much chance if supporting your life as 'stepping to a random point in space'.

So if we have a meta-anthropic principle such as 'this story takes place in a multiverse in which reality walking is a thing', that probably gives the most information one can hope to get about power interaction. I think that roughly reciprocates the intuition that if a character needs a certain power to exist, that power is more likely to extend in some form across universes. So something like 'biology' is likely to keep working, but also if it's a metasetting in which undead can planeswalk, it's likely that undeath translates in some fashion as well.

[Quertus]

But giving it a shot anyway, any person who depends on external power or anything beyond the most basic technology (fire, muscle power, etc) is going to have it rough. There's no guarantee that the laws of physics are even slightly similar at the level they'd need to be for advanced tech. You can't even guarantee that chemical reactions work--my setting doesn't even have atoms or molecules. It's all soul stuff, aspected in different ways and in different levels of condensation.

Yes, external power sources are a problem. So, perhaps, a good way to look at my question is in no small part to evaluate which realities' characters often depend on external power sources.

Now, "laws of physics" is an interesting one. No matter? Well, so what, my gun is still made of matter. Oh, your air isn't? Well, I guess my gunpowder can't combust... and I guess I can't breathe start suffocating. But a NASA rocket would work just fine in a no matter world.

There's other possible ramifications, but I think we all need to get on the same page on the simple stuff before I go there.


Indeed.

There's no guarantee that an individual won't drop over dead, turn to dust, or explode at the speed of light, when they get to a new "reality". There's no guarantee that the food will be edible or the air breathable. There's no guarantee that the magic or science or whatever that got them there, will function there and allow them to move on. Any "inter-reality" trip is a potential one-way trap or death-sentence.

True.

Perhaps my question is more... hmmm... given the set of works of fiction containing "relatable characters", what problems can we foresee with their interaction in what, to them, are habitable spaces?


If you want to construct a globally self-consistent multiverse capable of containing all settings,

I'm not sure if that's really what I want to do.

I want to define various assumptions of settings, like "made of matter" or D&D's magic's reliance on a particular planar geography.

I want to note when these assumptions fail, like technology actively fails in WoD Dark Ages.

I want to see just how realistically characters could travel to supposedly habitable portions of other realities, and just how bad that would be for some of them.


If it's the multiverse of mathematical expressions, you'd better not leave home because the anthropic principle is probably the only reason you're in a life-supporting universe to begin with and 'stepping to the world next door' has about as much chance if supporting your life as 'stepping to a random point in space'.

This particular issue is something that the author of a RIFTS-like homebrew discussed with me. Yes, clearly, random plane travel is as suicidal as random teleportation.


So if we have a meta-anthropic principle such as 'this story takes place in a multiverse in which reality walking is a thing', that probably gives the most information one can hope to get about power interaction. I think that roughly reciprocates the intuition that if a character needs a certain power to exist, that power is more likely to extend in some form across universes. So something like 'biology' is likely to keep working, but also if it's a metasetting in which undead can planeswalk, it's likely that undeath translates in some fashion as well.

Again, this feels like the opposite of what I want. I don't want to impose rules, I want to evaluate fail states from rules interactions.

[NichG]

I'm not sure if that's really what I want to do.

I want to define various assumptions of settings, like "made of matter" or D&D's magic's reliance on a particular planar geography.

I want to note when these assumptions fail, like technology actively fails in WoD Dark Ages.

I want to see just how realistically characters could travel to supposedly habitable portions of other realities, and just how bad that would be for some of them.

This particular issue is something that the author of a RIFTS-like homebrew discussed with me. Yes, clearly, random plane travel is as suicidal as random teleportation.

Again, this feels like the opposite of what I want. I don't want to impose rules, I want to evaluate fail states from rules interactions.

The thing is, those assumptions aren't part of the closure that constitutes a given setting. The thing about magic, the weave, etc in D&D is an example of this.

To put it more explicitly, if I'm running D&D, there's nothing intrinsic to D&D that tells me how to construct the answer to the question 'can magic still function here?' because from the point of view of the D&D rules and settings, there are multiple equally good explanations for how D&D magic works. That kind of freedom is why you can take the D&D system and then proceed to make one world where magic is just an omnipresent thing (e.g. Greyhawk/generic D&D setting #3), an adjacent world where magic is the blessing of a specific goddess who portions it out freely and the only difference between that and divine powers is that the goddess isn't picky about who gets to receive the blessing (e.g. Faerun), and a third setting where magic is the captured and expended life-force of living things (Dark Sun).

All three takes on magic are very different in terms of the 'physics' of magic, but they're all consistent with the same overlying D&D mechanics. Yet a character from Faerun going anywhere else definitely becomes unable to use arcane spells, while a character from Greyhawk might or might not become unable to do so, and a character from Dark Sun could presumably do so as long as they find some plants to drain or use the appropriate obsidian foci to drain animals (which might have to be Athasian plants and animals, but might not).

So in order to prefer one interpretation over another, you need some other source of information. All we have left to provide that information is to look at 'global' consistency and plausibility. That is to say, if we assume that we're telling a story in which someone uses arcane magic to step from reality A which has arcane magic to reality B which, on the face of it, does not seem to, then we've introduced additional information in the form of the premise that the arcane magic of reality A was able to actually affect reality B - so saying 'arcane magic absolutely does not exist at all in reality B' is an excluded possibility based entirely upon the fact that we're talking about a story in which someone actually does manage to make that reality travel event occur.

To put it another way, 'you can get there from here' would itself be an informative statement. You could have a reality B which totally denies all magic in any shape or form, but in that case one couldn't logically be able to use magic to travel there either. So a reality walker is, a priori, less likely to get stuck than one might think in a totally arbitrary set of universes, since any universe they make it to must be compatible enough to at the very least allow the reality walker's trick to work to inject stuff into that universe.

That's the kind of thing I mean by a meta-anthropic principle.

If you don't rely on that sort of filter, I don't think its possible to uniquely answer questions such as 'are D&D characters made of matter?'. They may be, or may not be; either could be self-consistent and consistent with the rules and setting information.

[Khedrac]

Sigh. This is as true and as meaningless as "the GM has rule 0". That is, there are rules and logic for how various realities work - or, at least, there should be. Why?
Seriously, why should there be any underlying logic to how two different fantasy worlds work? The only underlying logic there can be is that the world supports the telling of a story we find interesting.

Consider The Simpsons TV series - there is an episode where Homer goes to "the real world" and the key difference is that the real world is 3 dimensional not 2 dimensional. Pretty much anything that is supposed to have 3 or more dimensions is likely to suffer catastrophic failure when inserted into a world with two of fewer (note, Gold Box D&D as a setting allows plans with between 1 and 5 dimensions, magic required 4 to work under these rules).


The author shouldn't have to fiat an answer. The rules should cover it.On the contrary - the author has to be the one defining the answer - this is now their ficticious creation.


Each author had their mechanics. The question is, how well do they telegraph them? Can we follow the rules to predict an outcome?

Yes, those two sets of world had different underlying mechanics. That's kinda my point.

Now, what happens when they interact?
And this is our point - it is up to the person writing the interation to define how it works. Yes, when authors have laid out some of the underlying logic of their universe then there are conclusions people can draw, but don't expect those conclusions to match (just look at the RAW debates in the 3.5 D&D subforum).


It's the idea of tying access to magic to that mess that had me scratching my head as to just how they think magic works.In a lot of cases they haven't thought that far - "it's magic - it works" is all they need.


What can I say, I like rules, and the interactions thereof.Fine - then I suggest you start trying to write guidelines for how you would make them interact, you are asking us to define the impossible.


Now, "laws of physics" is an interesting one. No matter? Well, so what, my gun is still made of matter. Oh, your air isn't? Well, I guess my gunpowder can't combust... and I guess I can't breathe start suffocating. But a NASA rocket would work just fine in a no matter world.Why should the Nasa rocket continue to work? If cordite won't work then it is quite likely that the rocket fuel won't either. Different physical laws means that chemical reactions can stop working - so it is actualy "can't breathe" (or even "can't live") rather than simply "start suffocating".

Incidentally "made of matter" is way too broad a category:
Earth - matter is made of elements made of sub-atomic particles.
Some settings - matter is made of elements
Most D&D settings - matter is made of the 4 (?) elements (let's not worry about para- and quasi- elmental planes, or the extra elemets the oriental rules add - bother Companion D&D then has the elements interact differently so we'll ignore that too).
Glorantha - matter is probably made of runes.


I want to define various assumptions of settings, like "made of matter" or D&D's magic's reliance on a particular planar geography.

I want to note when these assumptions fail, like technology actively fails in WoD Dark Ages.Then do this, rather than ask "what are the rules for interaction?"


Yes, clearly, random plane travel is as suicidal as random teleportation.Obligatory link. (http://www.stonemakerargument.com/2.html)


Again, this feels like the opposite of what I want. I don't want to impose rules, I want to evaluate fail states from rules interactions.Unfortunately there are no rules for you to evaluate unless you write them. :smallfrown:

[Fiery Diamond]

We are accustomed to fiat of either "it just works" or "rebuild it in the new system". I am asking, what if we take the hard road, attempt to remove as much fiat as possible, and instead focus on the underlying mechanics, asking, "how should these interact?".


Well, the short answer to that question is "they shouldn't." If you don't have a destination world that explicitly permits specific things, the question of "how should these incompatible realities interact without authorial fiat" is as nonsensical and meaningless as "what should the properties of a square circle be?" This renders the whole exercise moot.

[Quertus]

one world where magic is just an omnipresent thing (e.g. Greyhawk/generic D&D setting #3), an adjacent world where magic is the blessing of a specific goddess who portions it out freely and the only difference between that and divine powers is that the goddess isn't picky about who gets to receive the blessing (e.g. Faerun), and a third setting where magic is the captured and expended life-force of living things (Dark Sun).

All three takes on magic are very different in terms of the 'physics' of magic, but they're all consistent with the same overlying D&D mechanics.

Harumph. You may be right, but I stubbornly don't want to believe this. I want to believe that D&D isn't just an interface level, but also specifies underlying mechanics. I want to believe that Defilers found a life-draining shortcut, but otherwise use the same magic as every other D&D Wizard.


To put it another way, 'you can get there from here' would itself be an informative statement. You could have a reality B which totally denies all magic in any shape or form, but in that case one couldn't logically be able to use magic to travel there either.

I hadn't been assuming that they were getting there under their own power. Like how Batman was a good example of someone who would work well on various realities. Yes, if you can get there under your own power, it kinda implies that your power has meaning there.


Why?
Seriously, why should there be any underlying logic to how two different fantasy worlds work?

Wrong question. "Why should there be any underlying logic as to how one fantasy world works?" is the correct question.

The fact that two worlds need not share underlying logic is the crux of the issue.

But, to get to the point of comparing them, one needs first to look at their underlying logic individually.


On the contrary - the author has to be the one defining the answer - this is now their ficticious creation.

When I'm handed someone else's code as a black box, I don't magically gain the ability to alter it. I don't get to define how Windows operates just because I wrote code for it.


Why should the Nasa rocket continue to work? If cordite won't work then it is quite likely that the rocket fuel won't either. Different physical laws means that chemical reactions can stop working - so it is actualy "can't breathe" (or even "can't live") rather than simply "start suffocating".

Hmmm... I hadn't consisted that. Thank you. I need to check my assumptions here.

Hmmm... I have been working under the "no hand waving, no conversations" banner. If you're made of matter, you remain made of matter, even if you travel to a realm of ideas. Thus, a NASA rocket (that does not require other matter to interact with) would continue to function (whereas a gun, which requires air for combustion would not).

However, if reality is the operating system, then code from an incompatible reality simply wouldn't run. :smallannoyed:

Best I can figure, I must be assuming either a) that the multiverse is the OS, and, thus, all code runs fine on all worlds without causing the world to crash, or (the equivalent?) b) anything a given reality can't process defaults to being run by the multiverse.

I'll need to look into my assumptions further.


Well, the short answer to that question is "they shouldn't." If you don't have a destination world that explicitly permits specific things, the question of "how should these incompatible realities interact without authorial fiat" is as nonsensical and meaningless as "what should the properties of a square circle be?" This renders the whole exercise moot.

Why do you believe in an explicit permissions model?

[Nifft]

Sigh. This is like the whole Martial Mundane Muggle fiasco. Got a suggestion for a word with no inherent baggage?
Magical Factor was the 1e MotP term that I posted about last page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22987486&postcount=7).

That ought to do the job.


To put it another way, 'you can get there from here' would itself be an informative statement. You could have a reality B which totally denies all magic in any shape or form, but in that case one couldn't logically be able to use magic to travel there either. So a reality walker is, a priori, less likely to get stuck than one might think in a totally arbitrary set of universes, since any universe they make it to must be compatible enough to at the very least allow the reality walker's trick to work to inject stuff into that universe.

That's the kind of thing I mean by a meta-anthropic principle.

I endorse this thinking.

[dps]

Harumph. You may be right, but I stubbornly don't want to believe this. I want to believe that D&D isn't just an interface level, but also specifies underlying mechanics.

Well, you can believe whatever you want to believe, but that doesn't make it true. There was a quote about DnD from an old book that reviewed various games that said, "Even in theory, D&D isn't a game but a game system. In practice, it's not even that--it's a system for designing a game system". To your point, DnD, at least as far as the written rules is concerned, doesn't particularly care why magic works, but rather how magic works--and even that can be different in different settings, whether published or homebrew.

[NichG]

Harumph. You may be right, but I stubbornly don't want to believe this. I want to believe that D&D isn't just an interface level, but also specifies underlying mechanics. I want to believe that Defilers found a life-draining shortcut, but otherwise use the same magic as every other D&D Wizard.


D&D 'doesn't', a story or setting framed as being a D&D world 'could' despite that, but not all such stories 'do'. That's why I'm focusing on figuring out just what can be inferred from the scant evidence that exists, because that's basically the only way to evaluate what is actually specified.

To put it another way, if you run a version of the D&D-verse in which Defilers have just found a life-draining shortcut, that's not inconsistent with what is specified by D&D + Darksun. At the same time, someone who runs a version of the D&D-verse in which Athasian magic is just different in some cosmic way is equally consistent.

For example, I could write an explanation for Athasian arcane magic of the following form: Athasian mages are cut off from the usual conduits carrying mystic power due to the effect of the Gray, but because the Gray also prevents souls from passing to the afterlife, mages can use that material as fuel for their spell effects instead. Souls that can't transmigrate over the astral tend to reflexively attempt reincarnation (but are not correctly primed for it due to not having their memories and experiences stripped off), so they tend to accumulate in living things - plants, animals, etc. Defiler (and preserver) magic both draw on those souls, but pulling too hard and too fast damages the receptacles (e.g. you kill the plants/animals you're pulling from). Take an Athasian mage from that cosmology and dump them in, say, Bytopia, and they'll find that their 'defiler trick' starts consuming nearby petitioners. Put them in Sigil and they're probably fine (Sigil canonically prevents soul transmigration for those who die within it). Put them on the prime material plane somewhere else and their magic is going to be weaker than they expect. I don't think that there's anything inconsistent with that explanation in the source material (at least from my memory of Darksun and Planescape settings).

[Fiery Diamond]

Why do you believe in an explicit permissions model?

I don't understand what this question means. Incompatible realities are, by definition, incompatible. Unless something is explicitly described as compatible, then you have two choices: you can say 1) "compatibility unknown, question of what happens unanswerable" or 2) "incompatibility assumed (or confirmed, in the case of having enough details about the worlds to be certain they're incompatible), question of what happens meaningless."

[Arbane]

Good luck trying to reconcile the cosmologies of different game-systems. What are the most fundamentally incompatible ones people here can think of? Kult ('reality' is a lie created by an singular evil god) and RuneQuest (the world is created from myths, the gods are very real) are two that won't play nicely with each other.

Heck, have fun trying to reconcile 3rd and 4th ed D&D's planar structures.

....and (Old) World of Darkness couldn't even get a single coherent cosmology between its own books in the same universe.

[Quertus]

Good luck trying to reconcile the cosmologies of different game-systems. What are the most fundamentally incompatible ones people here can think of? Kult ('reality' is a lie created by an singular evil god) and RuneQuest (the world is created from myths, the gods are very real) are two that won't play nicely with each other.

Heck, have fun trying to reconcile 3rd and 4th ed D&D's planar structures.

....and (Old) World of Darkness couldn't even get a single coherent cosmology between its own books in the same universe.

Well, I'm explicitly not trying to perform that form of reconciliation. I'm explicitly interested in the "WTF" moments as people find that reality is not what they believed.

So, what effect would reality being a lie, or reality being created from myths, have on the day to day life of a reality traveler?

4e cosmology is wack. People traveling between those realities of 3e and 4e worlds... have more to worry about than the cosmology, honestly.

And oWoD cosmology? It's like the points (on Whose Line) - it doesn't matter. Other than to those (like D&D teleportes) who just care that it isn't what they need.

[NichG]

The worst cross-overs are when one or both of the realities has an explicit 'this is the exclusive origin of the supernatural' clauses. Wheel of Time and 'the One Power'; Mistborn and it's Creation/Neutrality/Destruction sources, Slayers and 'all magic is contracts with gods, spirits, and demons'; Naruto and 'everything is Kaguya's chakra'; etc. Those settings don't give much recourse without having their premises broken.

Ones with 'active normality-preserving effects' are bad too. The Consensus in Mage is rough because it's an active element that punishes the unexpected, rather than just the absence of a power source.

Another hazard would be absorptive premises. E.g. a D&D wizard goes to Sword Art Online and finds that their magic works - because their home world was just another game too. These are more meta-hazards - contact between the stories renders one side or the other meaningless, but it's not like the reality traveler could just not go there to avoid the issue.

[Lord Torath]

Now, "laws of physics" is an interesting one. No matter? Well, so what, my gun is still made of matter. Oh, your air isn't? Well, I guess my gunpowder can't combust... and I guess I can't breathe start suffocating. But a NASA rocket would work just fine in a no matter world.Any world where a solid-fuel rocket works is one where guns work. Modern firearms are not air-breathers. Much like a solid-fuel rocket, all the oxygen they need is contained inside the propellant packed between the bullet and the casing. Just google "firearms in vacuum". Sorry, Jayne lied to you. :smalleek: :smallfrown:

[Quertus]

The worst cross-overs are when one or both of the realities has an explicit 'this is the exclusive origin of the supernatural' clauses.

Well, those realities premise (or those in says realities who believe this) are obviously wrong.


Ones with 'active normality-preserving effects' are bad too. The Consensus in Mage is rough because it's an active element that punishes the unexpected, rather than just the absence of a power source.

Mage and Warhammer are rough on reality travelers, albeit in different ways.


Another hazard would be absorptive premises. E.g. a D&D wizard goes to Sword Art Online and finds that their magic works - because their home world was just another game too. These are more meta-hazards - contact between the stories renders one side or the other meaningless, but it's not like the reality traveler could just not go there to avoid the issue.

Although antithetical to what I'm after, spreading inside a maraud would be... not unlike being invaded in Torg, actually.

As to SaO... I'm actually having trouble here. Since some worlds are, by cannon, (a) god's dream, or the like, SaO isn't any less real in my mind. So, what are the limits? What keeps a reality traveler from appearing inside software, or inside someone's dream? I'm struggling to determine how to measure the level of "real" / to find a reason why most reality travelers aren't showing up inside someone's dream. Like a twisted version of Dr... forgot his name.

[Max_Killjoy]

Well, those realities premise (or those in says realities who believe this) are obviously wrong.


Isn't that up to the writers/creator(s) of that secondary reality?

Seems a bit presumptuous to come along and say "the person who wrote this work was wrong, this is how the setting actually functions".

[Nifft]

Isn't that up to the writers/creator(s) of that secondary reality?

Seems a bit presumptuous to come along and say "the person who wrote this work was wrong, this is how the setting actually functions".

I think it's more like: "This is how the setting actually functions within the context of this mash-up."

It's like how a fanfiction writer can describe the lurid thoughts that run through Harry Potter's mind upon viewing the leather pants of Draco Malfoy, without any fear of confusion with canon where such thoughts did not ever happen.

[Max_Killjoy]

The worst cross-overs are when one or both of the realities has an explicit 'this is the exclusive origin of the supernatural' clauses. Wheel of Time and 'the One Power'; Mistborn and it's Creation/Neutrality/Destruction sources, Slayers and 'all magic is contracts with gods, spirits, and demons'; Naruto and 'everything is Kaguya's chakra'; etc. Those settings don't give much recourse without having their premises broken.

Ones with 'active normality-preserving effects' are bad too. The Consensus in Mage is rough because it's an active element that punishes the unexpected, rather than just the absence of a power source.

Another hazard would be absorptive premises. E.g. a D&D wizard goes to Sword Art Online and finds that their magic works - because their home world was just another game too. These are more meta-hazards - contact between the stories renders one side or the other meaningless, but it's not like the reality traveler could just not go there to avoid the issue.


Indeed, and speaking of Mistborn... when I was expressing worry about some of the protagonists in a fiction WIP being "too powerful", someone asked me if I thought they could beat Vin and Kelsier... first I had to read the Mistborn trilogy and read about it... but having done that, the thing that occurred to me was "how the bloody hell am I going to compare, say, Vin and Zheniver (one of my characters) -- each has 'powers' that are firmly grounded in the setting they inhabit and its basic cosmology; I'd have to somehow assume that both of them work exactly as depicted even when it contradicts".

Comparing settings like that just goes sideways and inverted and strange almost immediately, and I don't think you can force settings with a deep integral cosmology to mesh nicely without losing part of what makes them what they are.

[Arbane]

Isn't that up to the writers/creator(s) of that secondary reality?

Seems a bit presumptuous to come along and say "the person who wrote this work was wrong, this is how the setting actually functions".

Like I said earlier, this way lies madness, tears, and Marty Stu the UberDMPC.

[Quertus]

Isn't that up to the writers/creator(s) of that secondary reality?

Seems a bit presumptuous to come along and say "the person who wrote this work was wrong, this is how the setting actually functions".


I think it's more like: "This is how the setting actually functions within the context of this mash-up."

Kinda. Reality travelers presupposes that the rules of both realities are true, so someone with an "exclusive" view is clearly wrong in such a context. Your world might exclusively be blue, but that didn't mean that I'm not orange.


"how the bloody hell am I going to compare, say, Vin and Zheniver (one of my characters) -- each has 'powers' that are firmly grounded in the setting they inhabit and its basic cosmology; I'd have to somehow assume that both of them work exactly as depicted even when it contradicts".

Comparing settings like that just goes sideways and inverted and strange almost immediately, and I don't think you can force settings with a deep integral cosmology to mesh nicely without losing part of what makes them what they are.


Like I said earlier, this way lies madness, tears, and Marty Stu the UberDMPC.

Ok, so I'll court madness here.

Assuming D&D mages from Faerun require the weave, and assuming there is no weave substitute in realm X, then the D&D mage doesn't have access to his powers in world.

Same thing if the D&D Wizard has access to magic, but just assumes a constant planar geography, then their teleport / extradimensional magics fail.

Same thing with Rand 'al Thor & company if they are cut off from their source.

Why is this a problem?

[Lapak]

Kinda. Reality travelers presupposes that the rules of both realities are true, so someone with an "exclusive" view is clearly wrong in such a context. Your world might exclusively be blue, but that didn't mean that I'm not orange.

Ok, so I'll court madness here.

Assuming D&D mages from Faerun require the weave, and assuming there is no weave substitute in realm X, then the D&D mage doesn't have access to his powers in world.

Same thing if the D&D Wizard has access to magic, but just assumes a constant planar geography, then their teleport / extradimensional magics fail.

Same thing with Rand 'al Thor & company if they are cut off from their source.

Why is this a problem?
Because of the narrative structure of their source. It's like when you were trying to define worlds outside of Amber, or assuming that all D&D worlds had a Weave-equivalent. You're not just adapting the base story at that point, you're flat ignoring it. The Wheel of Time has a cosmology with a capital-G omnipotent God as one of its core elements, with all the present-in-all-possible-times-and-places that carries with it, and a clearly established structure for how the world works which includes the possibility of alternate realities; there are rules for how they work. In Zelazny's Amber books, the structure of all reality is equally clear and utterly incompatible with the Wheel of Time; WoT's Creator does not exist there and there are no alternate realities that are not shadows of Amber. "All possible universes" is written right into those stories, and how powers do or don't carry as well - those characters can't be lifted out of that setting in the way you're shooting for without breaking the setting. In those contexts, it has been established that there are no orange universes.

It's like the assumption you made above about things being made of matter carrying their properties with them (like rockets and bullets) - that's not a safe assumption! There are fictional worlds where all-that-is is literally made out of words in the True Word sense. Drill down deep enough and you don't get atoms or elements, you get meanings. There's no underlying reason why rocket fuel would explode in that world unless it happens to carry the right inherent meaning.

Though that makes me realize: if things DID carry their basic nature with them, I'd most definitely change my answer. It's not oWoD Mages, or Pattern-walkers, or even Banksian Out-of-Context Problems like the Excession that I'd pick as the best or safest choice. The correct answer is "Any Discworld protagonist." Since they (like the rest of the Discworld universe) have Narrativium as part of their core nature, the fact that they are a main character would be plenty to carry them through whatever trials another universe could possibly throw at them.

[NichG]

The Wheel of Time actually refers to Ghostwheel, and sa'angreal are modeled after the spikard ring...

[Quertus]

Because of the narrative structure of their source. It's like when you were trying to define worlds outside of Amber, or assuming that all D&D worlds had a Weave-equivalent. You're not just adapting the base story at that point, you're flat ignoring it. The Wheel of Time has a cosmology with a capital-G omnipotent God as one of its core elements, with all the present-in-all-possible-times-and-places that carries with it, and a clearly established structure for how the world works which includes the possibility of alternate realities; there are rules for how they work. In Zelazny's Amber books, the structure of all reality is equally clear and utterly incompatible with the Wheel of Time; WoT's Creator does not exist there and there are no alternate realities that are not shadows of Amber. "All possible universes" is written right into those stories, and how powers do or don't carry as well - those characters can't be lifted out of that setting in the way you're shooting for without breaking the setting. In those contexts, it has been established that there are no orange universes.

Are the dreams of the characters in Amber also shadows of Amber? I have no issue, personally, believing that Amber has defined everything Orange, but that there are also Blue things.

For Wheel of Time... I don't want to get too deep into religion here. However, one of my campaign worlds or one of my programs could completely accurately view me as an omnipotent god from its PoV, and still allow for there to exist... more.


It's like the assumption you made above about things being made of matter carrying their properties with them (like rockets and bullets) - that's not a safe assumption! There are fictional worlds where all-that-is is literally made out of words in the True Word sense. Drill down deep enough and you don't get atoms or elements, you get meanings. There's no underlying reason why rocket fuel would explode in that world unless it happens to carry the right inherent meaning.

I fail to see how this response makes any sense unless it assumes that objects are converted to the substance of the new reality - something I was explicitly not doing.

Conversion or hand waving are the common, easy paths. I'm interested in the much harder question, "but what if you don't?".


Though that makes me realize: if things DID carry their basic nature with them, I'd most definitely change my answer. It's not oWoD Mages, or Pattern-walkers, or even Banksian Out-of-Context Problems like the Excession that I'd pick as the best or safest choice. The correct answer is "Any Discworld protagonist." Since they (like the rest of the Discworld universe) have Narrativium as part of their core nature, the fact that they are a main character would be plenty to carry them through whatever trials another universe could possibly throw at them.

That depends. Not all protagonists survive their stories. But, yes, characters with narrative causality-based powers (with no external reliance) sound strong in this context.


The Wheel of Time actually refers to Ghostwheel, and sa'angreal are modeled after the spikard ring...

... What?

[NichG]

... What?

In the Amber series, a character with ties to both the Pattern and the Logrus designs a machine that could only function under specific and alien laws of physics, picks out a shadow with exactly those laws, and builds their machine. The thing literally uses entire sheafs of universes to do computations, threading itself throughout infinities of shadows.

By the end of the series the machine, Ghostwheel, is doing stuff like monitoring a non-infinitesimal fraction of 'all the shadows', mapping things like shadow storms and such caused by the cosmic level hijinks.

Ghostwheel is a literal omniscient, omnipresent entity. So Amberverse can appropriate WoTverse if the whole Wheel of Time, One Power, etc is just Ghostwheel trying to run a particularly malformed while loop ...

[Millstone85]

Now I am trying to imagine a character from the extremely animist universe of Nobilis arriving in a truly inanimate reality.

So each and every aspect of them would have a soul, or rather be a soul, and be relatable in an anthropomorphic way. Their emotions would be like in Inside Out, their cells like in Osmosis Jones, the water in their body would be a kind of naiad, their reflection and shadow would sometimes wave to each other, their reputation would precede them and act as a scout, etc.

But reality around them would lack such souls, and yet exist, which to them should not be possible.