Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts

[tedcahill2]

Why are a warlocks eldritch blast abilities count as invocations but dragonfire adepts have to choose them separately? Is there a reason you can't just combine them so a DfA that takes a PrC can continue learning breath effects?

[Nifft]

Why are a warlocks eldritch blast abilities count as invocations but dragonfire adepts have to choose them separately? Is there a reason you can't just combine them so a DfA that takes a PrC can continue learning breath effects?

Warlock was created by a level 9 designer.

Dragonfire Adept was created by a level 20 designer.

[tedcahill2]

Warlock was created by a level 9 designer.

Dragonfire Adept was created by a level 20 designer.

If this is a joke I don't get it?

[Troacctid]

They learned from the Warlock's reception and used that experience to adjust the new class to better meet the design goals they had for it.

[tedcahill2]

They learned from the Warlock's reception and used that experience to adjust the new class to better meet the design goals they had for it.

Wouldn't it be cool if they did a 3.5 reboot and do a full overhaul of all the classes with everything they learned over the course of the edition?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

The joke is that making players use precious Invocation slots on essences and shapes was a mistake that was corrected in development for DFA but never for Warlock

[Necroticplague]

Why are a warlocks eldritch blast abilities count as invocations but dragonfire adepts have to choose them separately? Is there a reason you can't just combine them so a DfA that takes a PrC can continue learning breath effects?

Don't you mean 'get to choose them seperately?'? By having blast shapes and essences take up normal invocation slots, you force them to choose between abilities useful in combat, and their utility abilities. Divorcing these from each other so you can have one without sacrificing the other is a good idea.

[RaiKirah]

Don't you mean 'get to choose them seperately?'? By having blast shapes and essences take up normal invocation slots, you force them to choose between abilities useful in combat, and their utility abilities. Divorcing these from each other so you can have one without sacrificing the other is a good idea.

The problem with this is that both the Warlock and the Dragonfire Adept have the nearly the same total number of Invocations/Shapes/Breath Effects (12 for the the Warlock, 8+6 for the DfA). If you prestige out though you don't get Breath Effects and you end up with less stuff overall. Feels bad in my opinion.

[Elkad]

PRCs should probably advance breath effects as well, since it's kinda the DFAs main thing.

[Nifft]

If this is a joke I don't get it?

The designs are different because the designers gained experience after one, before the other.

Not really a joke, just a true thing said in a way that might be amusing.

[BowStreetRunner]

Wouldn't it be cool if they did a 3.5 reboot and do a full overhaul of all the classes with everything they learned over the course of the edition?
They could call it 3.75...or Pathfinder...and then they could do it again and call it Pathfinder 2.0.

Getting around what is OGL and what isn't has limited this a bit though. Would love to see ALL of the 3.5 classes get full support in the splat books.

[daremetoidareyo]

Wouldn't it be cool if they did a 3.5 reboot and do a full overhaul of all the classes with everything they learned over the course of the edition?

let's write them and ask them to sell the rights to 3.5 IP to us. We'll guarantee they get whatever they got in pdf sales last year for an additional 5 years. Then we could make a 20,000 page SRD, with all of the feats and spells. And then a searchable database and real online support. Make our money on Ad Revenue too.

[Zaq]

let's write them and ask them to sell the rights to 3.5 IP to us. We'll guarantee they get whatever they got in pdf sales last year for an additional 5 years. Then we could make a 20,000 page SRD, with all of the feats and spells. And then a searchable database and real online support. Make our money on Ad Revenue too.

Oh, to dream the impossible dream . . .

[lylsyly]

Oh, to dream the impossible dream . . .

Like me offering Joe Fugate 175,000 dollars for the rights to the DGP Traveller products (all the funding I could arrange).
Yet 23 years later they remain out of print, no PDFs, nothing....

[Pleh]

let's write them and ask them to sell the rights to 3.5 IP to us. We'll guarantee they get whatever they got in pdf sales last year for an additional 5 years. Then we could make a 20,000 page SRD, with all of the feats and spells. And then a searchable database and real online support. Make our money on Ad Revenue too.

Not gonna happen. The SRD already has everything they were willing to share. Too much of the other stuff is "iconic" to the frachise and might threaten 5e and future editions.

That said, how do folks around here feel about homebrew updating Warlock so Eldritch blast essence/shapes progress like DfA breath weapons?

[Celestia]

Not gonna happen. The SRD already has everything they were willing to share. Too much of the other stuff is "iconic" to the frachise and might threaten 5e and future editions.

That said, how do folks around here feel about homebrew updating Warlock so Eldritch blast essence/shapes progress like DfA breath weapons?
I made a homebrew Warlock. I didn't separate them like that, but I did give it more invocations. It now gets 16.

[GrayDeath]

Not gonna happen. The SRD already has everything they were willing to share. Too much of the other stuff is "iconic" to the frachise and might threaten 5e and future editions.

That said, how do folks around here feel about homebrew updating Warlock so Eldritch blast essence/shapes progress like DfA breath weapons?

Check threads here, mostly in the homebrew section, there are a few variants of it.

After all, its really easy to fix the warlocks only true problem: Give him seperate Essence and Invocation pools, and more of them.

Otherwise the class is fine, if not in any way OP. :)


Might have one of my own making lying around as well (I think it adds some smaller stuff to more Inovcations, d8 and more skillpts iirc).

[Celestia]

Check threads here, mostly in the homebrew section, there are a few variants of it.

After all, its really easy to fix the warlocks only true problem: Give him seperate Essence and Invocation pools, and more of them.

Otherwise the class is fine, if not in any way OP. :)


Might have one of my own making lying around as well (I think it adds some smaller stuff to more Inovcations, d8 and more skillpts iirc).
I'm not really sure separating them is actually necessary. Just giving more invocations is enough. Sure, you could have two progressions, one giving you eight essences and the other giving you eight invocations, but where's the benefit? It locks you into eight of each. What if I want 10 essences and 6 invocations? What if I want 4 essences and 12 invocations? Having one pool of 16 can allow for any variation. It's like saying that the wizard would be improved by having eight different spell progressions, one for each school. It adds needless complexity that only serves to limit options. All the Warlock needs is more invocations.

[mabriss lethe]

I'm not really sure separating them is actually necessary. Just giving more invocations is enough. Sure, you could have two progressions, one giving you eight essences and the other giving you eight invocations, but where's the benefit? It locks you into eight of each. What if I want 10 essences and 6 invocations? What if I want 4 essences and 12 invocations? Having one pool of 16 can allow for any variation. It's like saying that the wizard would be improved by having eight different spell progressions, one for each school. It adds needless complexity that only serves to limit options. All the Warlock needs is more invocations.


Pretty much this^

While there are definitely classes out there that require significant retooling, The warlock isn't really one of them. The idea guiding them was pretty solid to begin with. They just need to be able to do more of what they're already doing.

[Troacctid]

Agreed. The core design of the Warlock class is sound; it's just a little undertuned.