Fighter/Bladessinger or Rogue/Bladesinger vs. Eldritch Knight

[Elric VIII]

I'm brainstorming an arcane hunter character that works as a ranged gish. Looking at levels 6-11 for now. I think the baseline character would be an Eldritch Knight, but I want to compare that to a Bladesinger with 2 levels of either Rogue or Fighter.

My extra attack woyld be delayed by 1 level (I'll take the 2nd level of martial after that) but i will have greater spellcasting ability and can use BB/GFB anyway. I lose out on fighter's heavy armor proficiency and second wind will not be too great. I won't get war magic, either but that competes with xbow expert.

Fighter gives me a fighting style and action surge, Rogue gives me sneak attack, skills, and cunning action. I do like the way cunning action lets me utilize my bonus action on turns where I cast a spell. But I'm not sure if it is worth the bonus to hit and action surge.

Or maybe just straight Bladesinger archer?

[Lord8Ball]

I really like the bladesinger/ rouge it works well with the high ac, mobility, moderate melee damage, ranged spells, and is extremely hard to hit with blink and shield. If you want to be more martial focused another option (assuming your dex oriented) would be an eldritch knight and dip into bladesinger for the battle song. The eldritch knight/rouge lacks a bit in the ac compared to the bladesinger but has good damage and versatility. You'd have to weigh the options of cunning action vs bladesong for the build you want. I would just take the mobile feat instead of rouge dip; however, if you have both rouge dip and mobile then you can bonus action disengage move 40 ft and make your bow/spell attacks from relative safety from melee opponents.

[CTurbo]

I love the Bladesinger/Swashbuckler combo. They work perfectly together. You'd probably want at least 7 levels or Rogue by the end, but at least 6 levels of Bladesinger for the 2nd attack too. Doesn't have to be a feat heavy build either. Just max Dex and Int and you'd be pretty ridiculous.

I also like the EK Fighter/Bladesinger combo but for this one would be more of a Bladesinger dip and staying mostly Fighter. You'll want at least 11 in Fighter for sure and as little as 2 in Bladesinger. Just depends on how much Wizard you want. Again, You'd want to max Dex and Int here, but it'd be easier with the extra ASIs.

Just remember, you can't wear medium or heavy armor or use a shield with Blade Song.

[Elric VIII]

Unfortunately, swashbuckler does not do much for an archer and I probably won't have a decent Cha. I was thinking that I would eventually take 4 levels of my martial class for the ASI, but I want to stay mostly a caster.

[Specter]

I'm brainstorming an arcane hunter character that works as a ranged gish. Looking at levels 6-11 for now. I think the baseline character would be an Eldritch Knight, but I want to compare that to a Bladesinger with 2 levels of either Rogue or Fighter.

My extra attack woyld be delayed by 1 level (I'll take the 2nd level of martial after that) but i will have greater spellcasting ability and can use BB/GFB anyway. I lose out on fighter's heavy armor proficiency and second wind will not be too great. I won't get war magic, either but that competes with xbow expert.

Fighter gives me a fighting style and action surge, Rogue gives me sneak attack, skills, and cunning action. I do like the way cunning action lets me utilize my bonus action on turns where I cast a spell. But I'm not sure if it is worth the bonus to hit and action surge.

Or maybe just straight Bladesinger archer?

In the end, it's all about how fast you want things, how much you want to cast and how tough you want to be.

- EK gives you everything you need by level 5: Crossbow Expert, Extra Attack and some spells for defensive capabilities. Bladesinger on a multi gives you that too, but it comes with (at least) a two-level delay. Plus, feats become much more crucial as you'll have one less ASI, and if I read correctly your first ones will come at levels 5 and 10 (a fighter would have 3 by then). If your DM enforces the 'elf-only' restriction for Bladesinger, then that's one less feat than if you had done Variant Human.
- If you absolutely want to supplement your attacks with Flame Arrows or Greater Invisibility, EK doesn't get those until much later, and probably your campaign won't get that far. Also, EK doesn't have ritual casting which will help you be more useful outside of combat.
- Wizard is a d6 class and Fighter is a d10. That doesn't make much difference in early levels, but it becomes increasingly more annoying as time goes by. Also, Fighters get Second Wind, which is not great but gives you even more hit points.

[djreynolds]

In the end, it's all about how fast you want things, how much you want to cast and how tough you want to be.

- EK gives you everything you need by level 5: Crossbow Expert, Extra Attack and some spells for defensive capabilities. Bladesinger on a multi gives you that too, but it comes with (at least) a two-level delay. Plus, feats become much more crucial as you'll have one less ASI, and if I read correctly your first ones will come at levels 5 and 10 (a fighter would have 3 by then). If your DM enforces the 'elf-only' restriction for Bladesinger, then that's one less feat than if you had done Variant Human.
- If you absolutely want to supplement your attacks with Flame Arrows or Greater Invisibility, EK doesn't get those until much later, and probably your campaign won't get that far. Also, EK doesn't have ritual casting which will help you be more useful outside of combat.
- Wizard is a d6 class and Fighter is a d10. That doesn't make much difference in early levels, but it becomes increasingly more annoying as time goes by. Also, Fighters get Second Wind, which is not great but gives you even more hit points.

Why not ranger? Seriously.

In terms of dips, its more powerful for spell casting, as it is a half caster instead of third. And you'll nab some healing

And you will have a 13 in wisdom at least, wisdom saves are important.

You'll get archery style at 2nd level.

And another idea is war cleric

[Citan]

I'm brainstorming an arcane hunter character that works as a ranged gish. Looking at levels 6-11 for now. I think the baseline character would be an Eldritch Knight, but I want to compare that to a Bladesinger with 2 levels of either Rogue or Fighter.

My extra attack woyld be delayed by 1 level (I'll take the 2nd level of martial after that) but i will have greater spellcasting ability and can use BB/GFB anyway. I lose out on fighter's heavy armor proficiency and second wind will not be too great. I won't get war magic, either but that competes with xbow expert.

Fighter gives me a fighting style and action surge, Rogue gives me sneak attack, skills, and cunning action. I do like the way cunning action lets me utilize my bonus action on turns where I cast a spell. But I'm not sure if it is worth the bonus to hit and action surge.

Or maybe just straight Bladesinger archer?
Hi!
Honestly all are great options, so it just depends on how high you want to put priorities on the following...
1. Weapon attack damage (and how it's distributed).
2. Magic use and how (defense/offense?).
3. Resilience.

For a 6-11 (which is imo a very thoughtful assumption), I'd say it depends on a good part of whether you went Eldricht Knight for Eldricht Strike and Third Attack or if it was just because you wanted a good all-around chassis that is easy to level and enjoy.

A Bladesinger...
1. Has some requirement (non-Human mean non starting feat whatever happens)
2. Can beat Fighter a few times per day thanks to spellcasting.
3. But will grow a bit slower than Fighter as far as weapon damage goes...
- You can use spells to gain advantage on your attacks, so you could bypass DEX bump...
- And you could also decide you'll never bump INT because you only use buffs anyways...
- Even then, at level 8, you wouldn't be that much better than a Fighter (on the plus side you wouldn't be "lesser" unless early concentration break): you could have Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert by then (by still only 16 DEX), using Haste or Greater Invisibility on every encounter. On the other side, Fighter would have both feats but also 18 DEX (or possibly 20 if Variant Human) and Archery style so overall more consistant damage over a day.

A Fighter...
- Is overall more resilient simply because much higher dice and less reliance on spells for defense.
- Is overall better at damage during long adventuring days because he does not rely on slots for his damage and can get feats "earlier".
- Has much, much less versatility overall (at least if you optimize it for damage).
- Will actually get as many attacks as Wizard only at 11th level.

>>> If you're not afraid of resource management I'd say Bladesinger Wizard is better for you, with or without Rogue or Fighter dip.
If you prefer to keep things simple, Eldricht Knight will do the job nicely. :)

[Elric VIII]

Thanks for the input. I think Rogue is going to be the right answer. Cunning action will really help me combine the magic and martial options.

For now I think it's best to avoid pure bladesinger because then I'm just a Wizard with a better option than cantrips.

[Raif]

Thanks for the input. I think Rogue is going to be the right answer. Cunning action will really help me combine the magic and martial options.

For now I think it's best to avoid pure bladesinger because then I'm just a Wizard with a better option than cantrips.

Actually, there's an argument for staying pure Bladesinger from one of the best guides I've seen for bladesinger right here by Deathtongue https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O6vBhvie18hFDmnom5lMv3zTj1nYUkvC8UxH0ngZWXQ/edit

In short:


Should You Multiclass?
Because multiclassing is very popular, this guide does (intend to have eventually) have an extensive section on multiclassing. However, before you do, PLEASE READ THIS SECTION EVEN IF YOUR POT OF GOLD IS WATCHING THAT DAMAGE-PER-ROUND GO UP!

A lot of people look at the Bladesinger, note they don't have a passive melee damage adder like Sneak Attack or the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, note that they can't use Great Weapon Fighting, then panic and start looking for ways to slap on multiclassing to increase their melee efficacy. The popular opinion (and fix) is to splash in a level of two of Fighter or even Paladin or Hexblade.

I think this is wrongheaded. If your intent is to use your Bladesinger to melee, splashing in a level is generally not worth it until the very end of the game, and only in specific circumstances. If you look at your Bladesinger as a platform for highly defensive damage from a variety of sources -- rather than the orthodox view of only viewing melee DPR as important – you'll find multiclassing is never worth it.

Level 6: You miss out on Fireball, Haste, and/or Extra Attack. If you're feeling cheesy, you also miss out on Animate Dead for extra skeleton minions.

Level 8: But let's say you're a Bladesinger 6 / Fighter 2. Now you miss out on Polymorph and Greater Invis. One of them is a turbo-charged swiss army knife that you will always find a use for, the other one makes you a melee god.

Level 10: Let's say you're a Bladesinger 8 / Fighter 2. Now you miss out on Animate Objects. With Arcane Recovery, you could've cast this three times per day. This is a titanic boost to your DPR. You also miss out on Song of Defense. You have two good tricks of 'don't die instantly when monsters look at you funny' (Absorb Elements, Shield) but this completes the trinity. There are a lot of big-time damage makers you have no answer to and sometimes a critical hit sneaks through. If you're abusing Planar Binding, you miss out on extra Conjure Elementals.

Level 12: You miss out on Contingency. You can think of it as an Action Surge that only works with buffs and/or an Action Surge that works even better with defensive ploys. SEE MY SECTION ON CONTINGENCY FOR MORE DETAILS. If you managed to get that spell, you also miss out on Tenser’s Transformation. I could live without Tenser’s, but I have a hard time imagining someone who loved them some melee showboating doing so.
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Level 14: You miss out on SIMULACRUM. Best feature anyone gets in the game, with the possible exception of Wish. It's so good that I recommend snagging Shape Water just so you'll have a source of ice for it. You also miss out on Song of Victory, which is one of the biggest passive DPR adders per game. If you're using TWFing + Haste, this is an extra 16-20 damage per round. That smite or fighting style ain't looking so hot now.

Level 16: Actually, you don't miss out on much here. I haven't played at this level of play, but I would imagine really regretting that I didn't have Maze. But this is probably the level in which I'd feel most comfortable being behind two levels. You do have enough spell slots to cast Tenser’s Transformation to last you an entire workday if that’s the only thing you care about.

Level 18: Now it’s back to regrets again. You miss out on Spell Mastery. This is infinite shield and misty step/mirror image all day long. This is better than any class feature any martial gives you with the possible exception of Aura of Protection. You also miss out on Foresight and Wish and Shapechange and True Polymorph. Any one of those four spells is better than any class feature any martial gives you, period.

Level 20: You might think that you're in the clear, but a lot of guides miss out on the fact that you gain an extra level 6 and level 7 spell slot. Even if you're not interested in another Mass Suggestion or Whirlwind, you could always just cast Contingency or Tenser’s Transformation twice and have those spells for every challenging workday encounter instead of just one. Signature Spell is okay, but it's still good.

[Citan]

Indeed. That's why both are fine.

@OP, "just a Wizard with a better option than cantrips" is very fine in my opinion. XD
When you are fine with "being it only for a time", you can replicate Rogue features (evasion with Longstrider/Expeditious Retreat/Haste, skill with Skill Empowerement or Enlarge, damage reduction with Absorb Elements) or Fighter features (AC with Shield/Mirror Image/Greater Invisbility, 3rd attack with Haste) although of course not everything at the same time, and each only a few times per day. ^^

So/But a 2-level dip in Rogue is indeed worth it especially if you'd like to...
- Actually play as a Wizard at times (meaning you won't always use your concentration on a self mobility/defense buff like Haste).
- Kite enemies like a king for free (Wizard can do so only under the effect of Expeditious Retreat / Haste / Greater Invisibility).
- Be particularly good in one skill area without magic.

Even one check makes the dip worth. Two checks make it great. All three make it the best decision for you.
(Just be careful about concentration when going into melee, especially under Haste... Unless you go as far as grabbing the Mobile feat ;)).

[Raif]

I'd say a baldesinger with mobile can kite for days. 50ft movement speed or 55 with wood elf is very good. Adding other stuff on top of it just makes it gold. AAnd for Ac, just bladesong with decent int/dex makes your AC sky high. A 4/4 gives you 21 AC twice on a short rest, 17 without the bladesong.

I'd only go rogue if you really want the cunning action as there's not much else there for you.