Cthulhu Mythos vs. Berserk

[Cap'n Gravelock]

Which do you think make better villains? The Great Old Ones and Outer Gods of Cthulhu Mythos or the Godhand and Apostles of Berserk?

[Eldan]

All such comparisons involving the mythos run into a lot of problems.

1. The mythos is vague. A handful of bigger entities are named, but for the most part, they are not "on screen", so to speak. Even for Cthulhu, who does show up at some point, most of what we have is the ramblings of his cultists and a few old and probably at least partially apocryphal writings. We have no idea which of the mythos entities really exist even in the mythos, and what they can do. Is Yog-Sothoth all of space and time, or do his worshippers just say so? We don't know.

2. The mythos is inconsistent. Much of it probably was never intended to be one world, despite some of the same names showing up.

3. The mythos is broad. What exactly, counts as mythos writing? Lovecraft himself only? How about Derleth, Howard, Chambers and all the others who wrote most of what people actually remember about the mythos, including most of the gods? What about Chaosium, who codified it all and were the ones who invented half the lower level creatures and made it possible for people to fight these creatures?

4. The mythos is subtle. For the most part, people in the world of the mythos are not aware of it. And most of the bigger creatures in it don't interact with humanity or care about it. This is especially relevant in comparison with Berserk, where godlike entities, demons and incarnations of the human collective psyche explicitely walk around killing and torturing people. The tone of the two stories makes them difficult to compare.

So, in the end,d I'd say the question about who's the better villain comes down to personal taste. These are entirely different genres.

[Cap'n Gravelock]

All such comparisons involving the mythos run into a lot of problems.

1. The mythos is vague. A handful of bigger entities are named, but for the most part, they are not "on screen", so to speak. Even for Cthulhu, who does show up at some point, most of what we have is the ramblings of his cultists and a few old and probably at least partially apocryphal writings. We have no idea which of the mythos entities really exist even in the mythos, and what they can do. Is Yog-Sothoth all of space and time, or do his worshippers just say so? We don't know.

2. The mythos is inconsistent. Much of it probably was never intended to be one world, despite some of the same names showing up.

3. The mythos is broad. What exactly, counts as mythos writing? Lovecraft himself only? How about Derleth, Howard, Chambers and all the others who wrote most of what people actually remember about the mythos, including most of the gods? What about Chaosium, who codified it all and were the ones who invented half the lower level creatures and made it possible for people to fight these creatures?

4. The mythos is subtle. For the most part, people in the world of the mythos are not aware of it. And most of the bigger creatures in it don't interact with humanity or care about it. This is especially relevant in comparison with Berserk, where godlike entities, demons and incarnations of the human collective psyche explicitely walk around killing and torturing people. The tone of the two stories makes them difficult to compare.

So, in the end,d I'd say the question about who's the better villain comes down to personal taste. These are entirely different genres.

Okay, allow me to clarify. Although, given what I'm about to say, this'll probably be moved to "World-Building" or something.

I'm actually making an RPG setting based on Pathfinder, the same way Order of the Stick is somewhat based on D&D 3.5.

The point of all this is, which make better villains? Extra-dimensional horrors beyond human comprehension or EXTREMELY evil and selfish humans who are willing to sacrifice anything and cross any boundary to have what they want? Is it also possible to have both types of settings in a single setting?

Also, which creatures do you think create more interest from readers?

[Gastronomie]

Okay, allow me to clarify. Although, given what I'm about to say, this'll probably be moved to "World-Building" or something.

I'm actually making an RPG setting based on Pathfinder, the same way Order of the Stick is somewhat based on D&D 3.5.

The point of all this is, which make better villains? Extra-dimensional horrors beyond human comprehension or EXTREMELY evil and selfish humans who are willing to sacrifice anything and cross any boundary to have what they want? Is it also possible to have both types of settings in a single setting?

Also, which creatures do you think create more interest from readers?If it's for a game where you fight monsters, obviously Berserk.

Berserk Apostles are hideous, overpowered abominations, but they can still be killed by force (such as big badass swords).

Cthulhu GOOs are nigh indestructible by normal means. They're stuff you run from, not stuff you overcome. They are unsuitable for action RPGs.

[Eldan]

If it's for a game where you fight monsters, obviously Berserk.

Berserk Apostles are hideous, overpowered abominations, but they can still be killed by force (such as big badass swords).

Cthulhu GOOs are nigh indestructible by normal means. They're stuff you run from, not stuff you overcome. They are unsuitable for action RPGs.

There's plenty of stuff that can be fought though, in the mythos. Ghouls, dreamland entities, ghosts, zombies, sorcerers, aliens like the Mi-go, time-travellers like the Yith, non-human Earthlings like the Elder Things or Deep Ones.

Really, a lot of Lovecraft is quite classic fantasy nowadays.

But yeah. For a D&D-ish game, where the players are armed and expect to kill things, Berserk all the way. Berserk is basically the story of a high-level D&D barbarian already.

The other problem is that, in the end, incomprehensible entities are really hard to put in a rules-heavy game. After all, they need rules for the players to interact with.

[Cap'n Gravelock]

If it's for a game where you fight monsters, obviously Berserk.

Berserk Apostles are hideous, overpowered abominations, but they can still be killed by force (such as big badass swords).

Cthulhu GOOs are nigh indestructible by normal means. They're stuff you run from, not stuff you overcome. They are unsuitable for action RPGs.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I see that apostles probably make better enemies.


There's plenty of stuff that can be fought though, in the mythos. Ghouls, dreamland entities, ghosts, zombies, sorcerers, aliens like the Mi-go, time-travellers like the Yith, non-human Earthlings like the Elder Things or Deep Ones.

Really, a lot of Lovecraft is quite classic fantasy nowadays.

But yeah. For a D&D-ish game, where the players are armed and expect to kill things, Berserk all the way. Berserk is basically the story of a high-level D&D barbarian already.

The other problem is that, in the end, incomprehensible entities are really hard to put in a rules-heavy game. After all, they need rules for the players to interact with.

Thanks for the reply, Berserk really is a bit of a really grimdark version of D&D in some ways.

Anyway, I made a post in "World-Building" that you guys can probably critique as that would be a more appropriate place for this kind of discussion since we're veering away from non-RPG media.

[BWR]

Cthulhu GOOs are nigh indestructible by normal means. They're stuff you run from, not stuff you overcome. They are unsuitable for action RPGs.

Pathfinder and their setting Golarion beg to differ. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-ones/)
And before that you had Mystara, which its share of (semi) Lovecraftian horrors, like Zargon, Draeden, the Burrowers and the Carnifex.

You can marry Mythos and D&D well enough. The Strange Aeons AP for PF was pretty good.

[Eldan]

A question of defintion, I suppose. I absolutely agree that settings can thrive with weird gigantic beings with tentacles from alien dimensions that occasionally invade the world, to be repelled by brave heroes. But I'd also argue that they aren't really Lovecraftian anymore at that point.

[BWR]

A question of defintion, I suppose. I absolutely agree that settings can thrive with weird gigantic beings with tentacles from alien dimensions that occasionally invade the world, to be repelled by brave heroes. But I'd also argue that they aren't really Lovecraftian anymore at that point.

It's not Lovecraftian in the sense of inevitable doom, certainly. Mortals do have the potential to become powerful enough to have a fighting chance at repelling such beings, but even in Lovecraft's stories humanity sometimes had a few minor victories.

[Eldan]

Yes, but usually against creatures on their level. With the exception of the one case of Randolph Carter and Nyarlathotep, I can't think of any mortals who ever went up against a god.

[S@tanicoaldo]

My personal view is that the Godhand and Apostles are evil, they are clearly malevolent and trying to make the life of mortals miserable while the Old ones and the other horrors are more like neutral (With the exception of Nyarlathotep) they are forces of nature who are not trying to destroy or ruin human life they just don't know any better, they are so cosmic and vast that their actions have no real intention against us, we mere ants to most of them they don't even realize we are there, they just do their thing, like a hurricane, it may destroy a lot of things but it’s not doing that on propose that’s just what a hurricane does.

So if you want an adventure where the players are fighting great evil beings who are weird and powerful godhand if you want the players to fight cosmic forces beyond their understanding fight old ones.

[GloatingSwine]

The point of the Mythos entities is to be so vast and unknowable and strange that even the least of them could wipe out humanity by accident and not even notice we had been there.

You can't use them as antagonists in an adventure narrative because they represent the futility of all endeavour in the face of infinite time and space.

Adventures that involve them usually involve finding ways to prevent the world from coming to their notice at all, to keep them quiescent, or otherwise avoid them squelching all over everything.

[Eldan]

Yeah, that. Good example is the first campaign of the Arkham Horror Cardgame, Dunwich legacy.

Sorcerer-cultists are trying to gather arcane writings and are experimenting to call down Yog-Sothoth, the ultimate source of arcane power. They have some temporary success, creating monstrous servants. The players are desperately trying to stop them before they get their ritual right, because it's a colossally stupid idea.

[Slayn82]

The point of the Mythos entities is to be so vast and unknowable and strange that even the least of them could wipe out humanity by accident and not even notice we had been there.

You can't use them as antagonists in an adventure narrative because they represent the futility of all endeavour in the face of infinite time and space.

Adventures that involve them usually involve finding ways to prevent the world from coming to their notice at all, to keep them quiescent, or otherwise avoid them squelching all over everything.

The concept of Cosmic Evil isn't very different in its effects from the Mythos. Both will attempt to trample over you, twist your body, consume your soul, and spread their brand of corruption.

But while Evil is doing it for principle, several beings of Mythos can be averted or appeased because they are seeking their own goals and profit, or obeying their natures, and will usually take the path of least effort, and don't care about you or your world specifically. Of course, if you try to understand their logic, you will get twisted and distance yourself from humanity. So, mad and/or evil. And/or a mathematician.

If instead of eating all the 300 villagers and taking their souls, ! can achieve a better effect by tainting their lineage so they are able to survive better, growing in number and becoming more predisposed to willing make pacts with ! , offering their souls and of their enemies, hey, more power for the great ! And now ! can always track and compel their descendants, sending them visions stored in their bloodline...

On a higher plane...

If you find a nice place full of spiritual energy, but it takes billions and billions of years to replenish the energy of the entire planet, maybe you should leave behind a small drone construct to monitor things and Call your astral projection when it's full and juicy. If any intelligent super being of nth dimension comes close to it, the psychic Wi-Fi will send them a warning that this place already is taken.

If anything with lesser intelligence appears on the site, it will probe and hack them to speed up the energy gathering. After all, everyone knows those native life forms that act like Queens to all the others, self proclaimed Gods, are pretty useful, barely sentient and don't feel any true pain...

In a even higher plane...

This metaphor isn't working as well as I originally intended. Time to bring an end to it.