Rapier + Hand Crossbow

[Dudewithknives]

Just an odd question or 2.

In lore, in various places, there have been multiple people who have fought with a hand crossbow in one hand and a rapier/shortsword in the other.

However, there is no real way to pull this off in 5e as far as i can tell without weird rules finagling

I could have sworn that somewhere it mentioned in one of the books something about an autoloading crossbow of gnomish design.
It was something like, "Crossbows have the loading property and require a free hand to load unless they are autoloading (gnomish invention, magic)." but it was more of just a blurb.

Any way to make this actually work without just dropping my melee weapon and picking it up again all the time?

[clash]

Crossbow expert works well for this. It allows you (at level 1 for variant human) to make a rapier attack and make a hand crossbow attack as a bonus action.

[Dudewithknives]

Crossbow expert works well for this. It allows you (at level 1 for variant human) to make a rapier attack and make a hand crossbow attack as a bonus action.

Even with the feat, you would still need a free hand to reload the crossbow is the problem. I don't want to have to constantly drop and pick up my melee weapon.

[JackPhoenix]

Does the "lore" say the character use the crossbow on semi-automatic, or just mention they use the two? Because taking one shot during the fight still counts as fighting using rapier and hand crossbow.

[Dudewithknives]

Does the "lore" say the character use the crossbow on semi-automatic, or just mention they use the two? Because taking one shot during the fight still counts as fighting using rapier and hand crossbow.

One of the most common drow fighting styles is rapier and hand crossbow.
In every other edition this could be done one way or another, but not in 5e as far as I can tell, without the use of homebrew magic items or the like.

[clash]

I know you didint want to drop your weapon every turn, however since dropping a weapon is free, and picking it up is an item interaction, you can drop your weapon before you shoot and pick it up immediately when you are finished shooting having it back in your hand for Oa at the end of your turn. Mechanically, assuming you have crossbow expert, this can be summarized as:

If you do not have a free hand, you can reload a hand-crossbow by spending an item interaction to do so. If you have multiple attacks you can reload it multiple times in between attacks as part of the same item interaction

Suddenly the stupidity that is dropping your weapon every turn is gone and instead it just takes a bit more work to finagle the loading process while holding a rapier. I repeat mechanically, nothing has changed but the fluff works way better and readily supports this style of play.

[Vogie]

There's not an easy way to do this in 5e. You could ask your DM if you could use something like Pathfinder Repeating Hand Crossbow, which is a hand crossbow with a case of 5 repeating crossbow bolts (which are more expensive than regular bolts) and requires 2 hands and a full action to load a new case into the crossbow.

[DMThac0]

PHB Page 146: ...Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack....

Page 147: Loading. Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.

Page 279: Swift Quiver ...Each time you make such a ranged attack, your quiver magically replaces the piece of ammunition you used with a similar piece of non-magical ammunition...

Alright, so with those pieces in place, just find a wizard who is willing to do the work to enchant your hand crossbow with that spell! I didn't dig through the books to find any magical items already in place which fit your goal, but this was the quickest in game answer I could come up with.

The other option is to work with your DM about having it in game, there's nothing saying that the Gnomes in your adventure haven't crafted just such a weapon and may be willing to let your group acquire it.

[Unoriginal]

Following the MM, most Drow warriors use a shortsword and a hand crossbow, but using the crossbow in melee is really not a smart idea in the large majority of situations.


There's not an easy way to do this in 5e. You could ask your DM if you could use something like Pathfinder Repeating Hand Crossbow, which is a hand crossbow with a case of 5 repeating crossbow bolts (which are more expensive than regular bolts) and requires 2 hands and a full action to load a new case into the crossbow.

Repeating Hand Crossbow exist in 5e, they're in Out of the Abyss.

[smcmike]

If I were the DM, I would consider allowing some sort of specially made loading mechanism that allows you to load one-handed. I’m envisioning a mechanical quiver, worn on the hip, with a slot where you slide the crossbow in and out to reload. I have no idea how this responds to people’s idea of realism, but it seems at least as realistic to me as reloading a heavy crossbow for multiple attacks as a free action.

[Naanomi]

It works fine for one (poisoned?) shot, which is probably sufficient for classic drow uses

[Willie the Duck]

One of the most common drow fighting styles is rapier and hand crossbow.
In every other edition this could be done one way or another, but not in 5e as far as I can tell, without the use of homebrew magic items or the like.

Sure, and the 1st round of combat, it is a great option to stab one guy, shoot another across the room (I guess these are low-level opponents or your weapons are poisoned, such that you want to split up attacks), and then draw your stiletto for your off-hand attack for subsequent rounds. Unless you put down your sword, you won't be able to reload a crossbow, and the only way around that is making a magic semi-automatic crossbow (which totally should be a thing, consult with your DM).

On the other hand...
combat is supposed to be abstract in D&D, right? Each attack roll isn't supposed to be one and only one exchange of blows, yet for some reason we're supposed to track each dropping and drawing and cocking of weapons? This is why I dislike the modern (okay, since 2000, so not that modern) shortening of rounds to 6 seconds. In a 10, 12, or 60 second round, it totally would make sense for a character to find a lull or dash around a corner, stab their rapier point-first into the dirt, reload and **** (uh, okay*) their little hand crossbow-pistol hybrid, pull their rapier back up, and continue fighting.
*Apparently censored. Another word for rooster, also what one does to a pistol or crossbow to re-ready it for use.

[Dudewithknives]

The situation is we had a 4 person group.

Battlemaster fighter PAM
Lore bard support and universal caster
My swashbuckler rogue fencer
And
Abjuration blaster wizard.

However, we lost our wizard player and most of our ranged damage went with him.

I am build to be a melee rogue, not an archer, but I am the best chance to backup ranged attack. I can see a swashbuckler with a Rapier and a hand crossbow so flavor is fine, but I don't want to drop my family heirloom rapier to shoot a hand crossbow. I don't plan to dual wield just a shot or a stab a turn not both. Just the issue of reloading.

I could throw daggers, but with their low range I would be just as good to walk over and stab them.

[Willie the Duck]

If you're looking to sub as a ranged combatant, just sheath your family heirloom and pull out a non-hand xbow or shortbow.

[JackPhoenix]

One of the most common drow fighting styles is rapier and hand crossbow.
In every other edition this could be done one way or another, but not in 5e as far as I can tell, without the use of homebrew magic items or the like.

"One way or another", do you mean use of magic items? Because it couldn't be done otherwise. You still needed two hands to reload any crossbow in previous editions. Actually, it was even worse, because you either had to take feat, or use action to reload the crossbow after every shot, and it would take action to grab dropped weapon too. It's much easier in 5e.


There's not an easy way to do this in 5e. You could ask your DM if you could use something like Pathfinder Repeating Hand Crossbow, which is a hand crossbow with a case of 5 repeating crossbow bolts (which are more expensive than regular bolts) and requires 2 hands and a full action to load a new case into the crossbow.

There's no such thing in PF. There's hand crossbow (which specifies you can fire, but not load it with one hand) and there's repeating crosbow and heavy repeating crossbow, which are based on light and heavy crossbow, respectivelly. Both still need two hands to re-**** it after each shot, but don't require actual reloading action (move for light, full for heavy) until you empty the whole case.

[Vogie]

Alright, so with those pieces in place, just find a wizard who is willing to do the work to enchant your hand crossbow with that spell! I didn't dig through the books to find any magical items already in place which fit your goal, but this was the quickest in game answer I could come up with.

The other option is to work with your DM about having it in game, there's nothing saying that the Gnomes in your adventure haven't crafted just such a weapon and may be willing to let your group acquire it.

Since Swift Quiver is a Ranger-only, only a level 14+ Lore Master Wizard or 17+ Ranger could pull it off.

There's definitely a possibility it could exist.



There's no such thing in PF. There's hand crossbow (which specifies you can fire, but not load it with one hand) and there's repeating crosbow and heavy repeating crossbow, which are based on light and heavy crossbow, respectivelly. Both still need two hands to re-**** it after each shot, but don't require actual reloading action (move for light, full for heavy) until you empty the whole case.

I'm AFB, but according to Archives of Nethys, it's in Ranged Tactics Toolbox.

[JackPhoenix]

Since Swift Quiver is a Ranger-only, only a level 14+ Lore Master Wizard or 17+ Ranger could pull it off.

Or level 10 bard. Not that it would do you any good, because it doesn't remove the actual loading or ammunition property. You'll still need two weapons to reload the crossbow, and unless you take Crossbow Expert, you can only do it once in a turn.


I'm AFB, but according to Archives of Nethys, it's in Ranged Tactics Toolbox.

Ah, so Dragon magazine-tier stuff. That explains that.

[JeffreyGator]

Since Swift Quiver is a Ranger-only, only a level 14+ Lore Master Wizard or 17+ Ranger could pull it off.


Or a level 10 Lore Bard...

[Greywander]

I know you didint want to drop your weapon every turn, however since dropping a weapon is free, and picking it up is an item interaction, you can drop your weapon before you shoot and pick it up immediately when you are finished shooting having it back in your hand for Oa at the end of your turn. Mechanically, assuming you have crossbow expert, this can be summarized as:

If you do not have a free hand, you can reload a hand-crossbow by spending an item interaction to do so. If you have multiple attacks you can reload it multiple times in between attacks as part of the same item interaction

Suddenly the stupidity that is dropping your weapon every turn is gone and instead it just takes a bit more work to finagle the loading process while holding a rapier. I repeat mechanically, nothing has changed but the fluff works way better and readily supports this style of play.
I like this, as it makes a lot of things less awkward. I was building a Cleric 1/Wizard X and ran into a similar issue where I wanted to use a shield and sling and still be able to cast spells. Not only did I have to worry about how to reload the sling, but I needed to be able to free up a hand for spellcasting, too.

We could generalize the rule even more:

If you do not have a free hand, you can perform tasks that normally require a free hand (such as casting a spell or reloading a crossbow) by spending an item interaction to do so. Until the start of your next turn, you count as having a free hand for these purposes.

Then again, I feel like this might step on the toes of the Warcaster feat.

[djreynolds]

To dual wield a rapier and hand crossbow..
You need crossbow expert, but you will also need dual wielder since a rapier isn't a light weapon, and this feat allows you to draw or stow 2 weapons in a round.

So it should allow you to shoot, stab, stow rapier, load and draw hand crossbow, and then redraw rapier

[Dudewithknives]

To dual wield a rapier and hand crossbow..
You need crossbow expert, but you will also need dual wielder since a rapier isn't a light weapon, and this feat allows you to draw or stow 2 weapons in a round.

So it should allow you to shoot, stab, stow rapier, load and draw hand crossbow, and then redraw rapier

I was not planning to attack with both in the same round, in a round I either attack with one or the other, you only need dual wielder if you plan to attack with both on your turn

Thus brings up a good point though, if I do not have Dual Wielder and have a hcb in one hand and my rapier in the other, if I use my action to shoot the hcb could I still use my rapier for an opportunity attack?

I know you can wield 2 one handers, as long as you only attack with one each turn, but what about on someone else's turn?

[clash]

I like this, as it makes a lot of things less awkward. I was building a Cleric 1/Wizard X and ran into a similar issue where I wanted to use a shield and sling and still be able to cast spells. Not only did I have to worry about how to reload the sling, but I needed to be able to free up a hand for spellcasting, too.

We could generalize the rule even more:

If you do not have a free hand, you can perform tasks that normally require a free hand (such as casting a spell or reloading a crossbow) by spending an item interaction to do so. Until the start of your next turn, you count as having a free hand for these purposes.

Then again, I feel like this might step on the toes of the Warcaster feat.

I like the generalization and reiterate that this is not a new rule simply restating existing rules in a way that is nicer to use

[JackPhoenix]

To dual wield a rapier and hand crossbow..
You need crossbow expert, but you will also need dual wielder since a rapier isn't a light weapon, and this feat allows you to draw or stow 2 weapons in a round.

So it should allow you to shoot, stab, stow rapier, load and draw hand crossbow, and then redraw rapier

You don't need both... or either, really, if you have Extra Attack. TWF doesn't work with hand crossbow, as it isn't a melee weapon, but you may get the BA attack from Crossbow Expert.

Dual Wielder is no help here. If you sheathe your rapier, you've used up your free object interaction for the turn, so you can't also draw it without using up your action, which you no longer have thanks to using it for attacking. It doesn't allow you to use draw/stow interaction twice in a turn, it allows you to use it on two weapons at the same time instead of one.

[Greywander]

To dual wield a rapier and hand crossbow..
You need crossbow expert, but you will also need dual wielder since a rapier isn't a light weapon, and this feat allows you to draw or stow 2 weapons in a round.

So it should allow you to shoot, stab, stow rapier, load and draw hand crossbow, and then redraw rapier
Actually, you can't use two-weapon fighting with ranged weapons at all. Crossbow Expert specifically allows you to make a bonus action attack with a hand crossbow after attacking with a one-handed weapon. The "light" property isn't mentioned at all, so it would work with a rapier.

The good news is that your bonus action attack does full damage without needing the Two-Weapon Fighting style, but you don't gain any benefit form the Dual Wielding feat except being able to draw or stow two weapons in one turn.

Also, I'm pretty sure that if you have Extra Attack, you can choose which weapon to use for each attack. So, you could strike with your rapier then shoot with your crossbow, then with Crossbow Expert make another crossbow shot as a bonus action.

[djreynolds]

It says right in the PHB that if the weapon has the thrown property and is light you can throw it,
"If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack"

And the third perk in dual wielder says
"You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one."

Says nothing of when this occurs on your turn or if it is simultaneously

So, yes you can dual wield a rapier and hand-cross bow if you have the crossbow expert feat and the dual wielder feat. Because you can stow your rapier after attacking to reload the crossbow, and then draw it again.

[smcmike]

It says right in the PHB that if the weapon has the thrown property and is light you can throw it,
"If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack"

And the third perk in dual wielder says
"You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one."

Says nothing of when this occurs on your turn or if it is simultaneously

So, yes you can dual wield a rapier and hand-cross bow if you have the crossbow expert feat and the dual wielder feat. Because you can stow your rapier after attacking to reload the crossbow, and then draw it again.

I am getting increasingly confused by this thread. Are you planning on THROWING your hand crossbow at people?


As for the OP, it doesn’t sound like he actually wants to use the crossbow and the sword at the same time, so I’m also very confused as to the actual question. Use one or the other?

[djreynolds]

I am getting increasingly confused by this thread. Are you planning on THROWING your hand crossbow at people?


As for the OP, it doesn’t sound like he actually wants to use the crossbow and the sword at the same time, so I’m also very confused as to the actual question. Use one or the other?

LOL, that is going to make my day.

And right, just use one or the other, or throw a dagger.

[suplee215]

one way to do it is ot have more than 1 crossbow and drop it every turn. While expensive it is what pirates and highwayman did when fighting with a gun and sword.