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AnimeTheCat
2018-04-12, 10:30 AM
I have mostly only played D&D 3.5 and, as a whole, the system typically fails to showcase powerful, or even competent, martial characters. When I say Martial Characters, I mean anything from a standard Knigh with heavy armor and shield or a berserker who focuses on powerful attacks and speed to avoid damage to a swift archer who moves about and picks off enemies from afar or a fencer who is quick on their feet and makes attacks in quick repetition.

D&D as a whole tends to fail to properly allow for characters of this type to compete, especially at higher levels. What I'm working on is a personal project that would have 5 base classes that can be molded through ability trees into as many possible archetypes as can be attained. What I've come up with so far in the "Martial" class (as I'm calling it for now) is:

- Knight: Heavy Armor, High Defense, high health, reduction of incoming damage, Protective of others, capable mounted and not mounted.
- Swift Fighter: light or no armor, high defensive ability, moderate health, low damage reduction, single weapon or dual weilding, fast, lots of attacks
- Berserker: light or no armor, lower defense, high health, two handed weapon or dual weilding, fewer attacks but higher damage per attack
- Archer: Light or no armor, lower defense, lower health, various archery focused abilties (multiple arrows in a single attack, etc).
- Brawler: Light or no armor, moderate defense, moderate health, barehanded bonuses and benefits

What other martial warrior/fighter/etc. archetypes can you all think of? I'm trying to make this focused on archetypes that should accell in melee or ranged weapon combat and putting out physical, weapon-based damage.

ADDED:
- Tactician: provides benefits and bonuses based on teamwork abilities that enhances/supports themselves and the party

togapika
2018-04-12, 10:55 AM
What about something for a reactive martial type like a fencer? Someone who doesn't go for multiple fast attacks, but instead waits for the perfect moment to dodge or riposte and then go for a killing strike.

Pleh
2018-04-12, 11:10 AM
- Knight: Heavy Armor, High Defense, high health, reduction of incoming damage, Protective of others, capable mounted and not mounted.

Crusader


- Swift Fighter: light or no armor, high defensive ability, moderate health, low damage reduction, single weapon or dual weilding, fast, lots of attacks

Swordsage


- Berserker: light or no armor, lower defense, high health, two handed weapon or dual weilding, fewer attacks but higher damage per attack

Warblade


- Archer: Light or no armor, lower defense, lower health, various archery focused abilties (multiple arrows in a single attack, etc).

Ranger and/or Fighter can do okay with this. (They just won't do much else).


- Brawler: Light or no armor, moderate defense, moderate health, barehanded bonuses and benefits

Unarmed swordsage


What other martial warrior/fighter/etc. archetypes can you all think of? I'm trying to make this focused on archetypes that should accell in melee or ranged weapon combat and putting out physical, weapon-based damage.

Assassin - light armor/weapons, ambush and stealth mixed with martial expertise.

Uncanny Duelist - light weapons/armor, parrying/tumbling defenses, charismatic and agile.

Commando/soldier/ronin - similar to Knight, but less virtuous and more tactical (if the Knight's code of conduct demands combat as sport be fair, the soldier operates combat as war and disregards honor for efficiency. Proficient with virtually all weapons and armor, but swapping loadouts according to the needs of the mission. Trained in stealth and survival rather than chivalry and horsemanship.

Goaty14
2018-04-12, 11:38 AM
Crusader

Except not as capable mounted.

AnimeTheCat
2018-04-12, 11:40 AM
What about something for a reactive martial type like a fencer? Someone who doesn't go for multiple fast attacks, but instead waits for the perfect moment to dodge or riposte and then go for a killing strike.

I was thinking that would fit more in to the "Swift Fighter" archetype. I guess that would just be a segway in the tree. One route be many attacks, one be dodge/deflect the reposte.


Crusader
Swordsage
Warblade
Ranger and/or Fighter can do okay with this. (They just won't do much else).
Unarmed swordsage

Assassin - light armor/weapons, ambush and stealth mixed with martial expertise.

Uncanny Duelist - light weapons/armor, parrying/tumbling defenses, charismatic and agile.

Commando/soldier/ronin - similar to Knight, but less virtuous and more tactical (if the Knight's code of conduct demands combat as sport be fair, the soldier operates combat as war and disregards honor for efficiency. Proficient with virtually all weapons and armor, but swapping loadouts according to the needs of the mission. Trained in stealth and survival rather than chivalry and horsemanship.

I know that those are all in existence in 3.5, but they suffer by not being truly relevant in later level or are incredibly reliant on gear. Also, not really looking for existing classes, but more idealistic martial warrior archetypes that all stem from the same core, that core being highest proficiency in physical combat utilizing melee and ranged weapons.

I do think something of a Ronin needs to be added, but I will need to do research. I don't want to base Archetypes off of other systems, rather historical or more "real world" archetypes that existed and on more long-standing fantasy concepts. I don't plan on having codes of conduct binding any particular archetype either. If, for RP reasons, a player wants to put themselves behind a code of conduct, then so be it. I've never really been a fan of things of that nature.

awa
2018-04-12, 12:05 PM
cooperative
Lots of fighting styles in the real world used by armies were built around team work, might not function as well as for a d&d class, but a pike men or legionary who gets some weaker minions with the same fighting style and various team work benefits could work.

Pleh
2018-04-12, 01:25 PM
I know that those are all in existence in 3.5, but they suffer by not being truly relevant in later level or are incredibly reliant on gear.

TOB tends to stick around tier 3 by most accounts. Not outshining casters by any means, but managing to stay relevant in their own niche.


I do think something of a Ronin needs to be added, but I will need to do research. I don't want to base Archetypes off of other systems, rather historical or more "real world" archetypes that existed and on more long-standing fantasy concepts. I don't plan on having codes of conduct binding any particular archetype either. If, for RP reasons, a player wants to put themselves behind a code of conduct, then so be it. I've never really been a fan of things of that nature.

Between Ronin and Assassin, I'm reminded of Riddick, with a combat as war philosophy that employs every possible advantage to combat, including "dishonorable" or "underhanded" strategies paired in equal measure with master expertise in martial combat (death by teacup).

Of course, there's more to Ronin than this (japanese culture is a deep subject). What I'm describing is probably closer to the Wild West archetype of the gunslinger, drifting from town to town avoiding lawmen, shooting first, asking questions later.

It's the martial skill of the urban survivalist/predator. The archetype follows that unrefined, DIY martial skill that is found in outlaws who get little to no support from society (no one but fellow outlaws to teach them how to kill). It leads to a unique set of skills that compensate for a lack of training or resources with guile and ingenuity. Fight smarter, not harder. Honor won't put food in your stomach or make your grave more comfortable.

The pragmatic fighter.


cooperative
Lots of fighting styles in the real world used by armies were built around team work, might not function as well as for a d&d class, but a pike men or legionary who gets some weaker minions with the same fighting style and various team work benefits could work.

I think 3.5 tried to touch on this with team feats and the marshal class. Didn't come together very well. It's a fine enough class, but it doesn't really live up to the idea of being a squad leader unless you get cohorts and followers.

Didn't 4e try to do this with Warlord?

I think what "squad combat" in 3.5 needed was tactical advantages more than numerical bonuses.

How about "you can't be flanked while adjacent to an ally (assuming the ally threatens adjacent squares with a melee weapon)"? Or "creatures you attack can only make AoOs against you"? (Of course, TOB fixed some of this).

This is why tripping is one of the best tactics in the game. It actually allows the martial combatant to affect combat beyond trying to win an exchange of attack rolls. There's not enough alternative choices to shift the balance of combat for characters who are meant to master the battlefield. Best that most martials can do is try to be in the enemies' way without being in their allies' way.

AnimeTheCat
2018-04-12, 01:33 PM
Maybe it would be best to clarify, this isn't a request for help with anything for 3.5. This is a general call for typical fantasy and real-world warrior themes that should be available as options to create in a game. Any game, in general, not specifically 3.5. I know most methods of building what I want in 3.5, but it's arduous and requires way too much work for the common player, in my opinion.

I'm trying to capture thematic character concepts, no recreate something in another system.

awa
2018-04-12, 01:46 PM
I think 3.5 tried to touch on this with team feats and the marshal class. Didn't come together very well. It's a fine enough class, but it doesn't really live up to the idea of being a squad leader unless you get cohorts and followers.

Didn't 4e try to do this with Warlord?

I think what "squad combat" in 3.5 needed was tactical advantages more than numerical bonuses.

How about "you can't be flanked while adjacent to an ally (assuming the ally threatens adjacent squares with a melee weapon)"? Or "creatures you attack can only make AoOs against you"? (Of course, TOB fixed some of this).

This is why tripping is one of the best tactics in the game. It actually allows the martial combatant to affect combat beyond trying to win an exchange of attack rolls. There's not enough alternative choices to shift the balance of combat for characters who are meant to master the battlefield. Best that most martials can do is try to be in the enemies' way without being in their allies' way.

I know theirs not a good version of this in d&d and part of that is the player first does not have good abilities that work together and second dont get their own minions.
Warlords and similar class improve allies but that is not the same thing as a pike hedge or a shield wall where everyone in the formation works together using a single tactic.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-12, 03:04 PM
Needs a spearman, who fights with a reach weapon. And some sort of sword-magic adept, who wields blades that float on their own, directed at a whim while the 'swordsman' dances defensively like a dervish.

Maybe also someone who's just way to big and strong, and crushes everything around him with a giant rock on a rope.

Maybe a shuriken-variant archer? Much shorter range, calling for some showy acrobatics. Poisoned shuriken would be cool. Thief-acrobat kinda guy.

I built a goblin once who was all about running away, hiding, and sniping from cover - then running some more.

khadgar567
2018-04-13, 02:07 AM
edge master person with to much knowledge on weapons aka doug marcadia

Florian
2018-04-13, 06:01 AM
I'm trying to capture thematic character concepts, no recreate something in another system.

Head over to aonsrd.com, click on "Classes", look at that list, chose one of the martial classes and click on archetypes. Doesn´t matter that it is PF, but they've already identified a lot of top level and sub level archetypes, ie. Fighter > Drill Sergeant, mobile fighter, dragoon, Samurai > Ronin, Yojimbo, Sword Saint and so on...

Arbane
2018-04-13, 12:59 PM
Maybe it would be best to clarify, this isn't a request for help with anything for 3.5. This is a general call for typical fantasy and real-world warrior themes that should be available as options to create in a game. Any game, in general, not specifically 3.5. I know most methods of building what I want in 3.5, but it's arduous and requires way too much work for the common player, in my opinion.

I'm trying to capture thematic character concepts, no recreate something in another system.

Well, in THAT case, we also need a warrior who can cut the tops off of multiple mountains from miles away (Celtic myth), an archer who can shoot down eight of nine suns (Chinese myth), someone who can swim in full armor for days and strangle the occasional sea-monster on the way (Norse legend), people who can wrestle giants (Greek, Russian myth). a fighter who can shake off lethal wounds and keep fighting anyway (English, Indian myth)....

Karl Aegis
2018-04-13, 09:20 PM
Just go with the tropes:

Stone Wall
Mighty Glacier
Lightning Bruiser
Fragile Speedster
Glass Cannon

wolflance
2018-04-14, 05:37 AM
Thematically, I think blade dancer type characters are cool. As is sword dancing assassin (like the Alibaba maid).

Does rogue and the likes count as "martial"?

Satinavian
2018-04-14, 06:42 AM
Maybe it would be best to clarify, this isn't a request for help with anything for 3.5. This is a general call for typical fantasy and real-world warrior themes that should be available as options to create in a game. Any game, in general, not specifically 3.5. I know most methods of building what I want in 3.5, but it's arduous and requires way too much work for the common player, in my opinion.

I'm trying to capture thematic character concepts, no recreate something in another system.
At first glance all mounted fighters are missing (also chariots, but that might be niche)

Then i thing a shield fighter should be introduced. Shields usually were used with no/light/medium armor but then as a skill based main defense. When heavy armor became practical, people started to use the offhand for something else which is the reason i don't think it should be part of the knight.

Do you plan to incorporate weapon reach and/or formations ? If yes, there are many iconic fighting styles relying on those concepts.

Cluedrew
2018-04-14, 07:18 AM
Some I can think of (although these are starting into getting into elements you can mix and match):

Acrobat: Jumps and moves around a lot. Usually doesn't really have a main weapon, but has a bunch of secondary weapons.
Chi-Master: I admit this is exiting martial if it is actually mystical forces inside the body, or you could just have someone who goes for pressure points.
Chain Weapons: Very comic book, but someone who uses chains to trip people up a distance.

That is getting progressively further from major types to particular features, so I think I will stop there. If you want to make awesome martials I think it basically comes down to 2 things. Give them cool things to do which are not just more attacks (and not just fighting, even a soldier has other skills) and don't let magic just outstrip those things.

redwizard007
2018-04-14, 09:10 AM
This actually boils down to just a handful of bases with tweaks to get where you want to end up.

Base 1: high Str
Base 2: high Dex
Base 3: high Con
Base 4: high Int
Base 5: high Wis
Base 6: high Chair

It's weird how that mirrors a certain system we all know.

High Str is going to be all about hitting hard and wearing heavy armor.

High Dex will be striking frequently and mobility.

High Con is for soaking up hits and wearing the enemy down through attrition.

High Int means pinpoint strikes and battlefield control.

High Wis is consistent damage and heightened awareness (counter strikes probably.)

High Cha is flashy strikes and motivating allies while demoralizing enemies.

If you want specific examples of warriors from history you have plenty in the other posts, but I did not yet see myrmidon, slinger, shield bearer, any Viking stereotype, or horse Archer.

Nifft
2018-04-14, 06:33 PM
Skirmisher - high-mobility melee and short-range (thrown or shortbow); lightly armored; fast on foot & skilled on a horse. Does not do well in a slugfest.

In 3.5e, this might be a Scout or a Scout / Ranger. Also, as far as I can tell the Soulknife was supposed to be this archetype, but failed due to excessive internal suckage.

Pleh
2018-04-14, 07:35 PM
Just go with the tropes:

Stone Wall
Mighty Glacier
Lightning Bruiser
Fragile Speedster
Glass Cannon

Ultimately, I always felt like the fighter should be able to swap tropes/tactics. I know ToB dabbled in this, but I think it'd be cool if the fighter could progress in multiple feat chains at once, switching "stances" as a move action (and switching to a favored stance as an immediate action).

Cluedrew
2018-04-14, 08:19 PM
It's weird how that mirrors a certain system we all know.I think that is because you started with the "certain system" and worked back from that. Now if the goal is to widen D&D classes, or just as an source of inspiration or if this new system uses the same stats. Which might be a useful question, AnimeTheCat could tell us. If it doesn't you could create a different mapping from stats to archetypes. I had a different point...

Right, which is stats aren't always the best way to approach it. For instance I have a hard time thinking of a high "con" fighter who isn't also high "str". Similarly your description of high wisdom strikes me as more of a high dexterity character (by dodge and counter). Especially since the classic high wisdom characters tend to be old masters and veterans who may have situational awareness, but tend to add that on top of a base of whatever they did when they where young. So I don't think "high wisdom" is actually a great way to start stating those characters.

I feel you may disagree, feel free to explain why.

redwizard007
2018-04-14, 09:55 PM
Forgive me for derailing things here. This should be quick.


I think that is because you started with the "certain system" and worked back from that. Now if the goal is to widen D&D classes, or just as an source of inspiration or if this new system uses the same stats. Which might be a useful question, AnimeTheCat could tell us. If it doesn't you could create a different mapping from stats to archetypes. I had a different point...

Right, which is stats aren't always the best way to approach it. For instance I have a hard time thinking of a high "con" fighter who isn't also high "str". Similarly your description of high wisdom strikes me as more of a high dexterity character (by dodge and counter). Especially since the classic high wisdom characters tend to be old masters and veterans who may have situational awareness, but tend to add that on top of a base of whatever they did when they where young. So I don't think "high wisdom" is actually a great way to start stating those characters.

I feel you may disagree, feel free to explain why.

You are probably right about me working backwards here. I didn't realize it at the time. Having come to terms with that, I'm not sure I was wrong to do so, or at least to dismiss that line of thinking without letting it run its course.

First, let's nail down a few differences.

High strength fighters are often of high durability because the training to increase strength has a tendency to correspond to activities that develop durability. Weight training and football would be a good modern example of that. I posit that this is actually more a case of primary and secondary training. The weight training increases strength while the calisthenics and contact drills from football develop durability. By comparison, a boxer that focuses on his strength to the exclusion of his conditioning may hit like a train, but will fall to a boxer that can evade or block his first barrage of punches. See Mike Tyson for a perfect example. The gist, for a game, is that the strength aspect of this character involves his ability to weild a large weapon and to wear heavy armor. It has no bearing on durability per se.

Con/endurance/durability focus is more on taking a blow and shrugging it off. It's the classic big-man-in-an-action-movie. He gets hit in the face and barely flinches, or it could be the little-guy-that-won't-stay-down. Now, traditionally, this is usually mated with a high strength, but it doesn't have to be. Some guys are just freaking big. Others work hard to condition their bodies for grueling tasks. The point is, it is entirely separate.

A Wis based counter puncher that I mentioned above, I saw as someone biding their time patiently and taking the low risk opportunities presented. I see how that could blur with the Dex or Int. Countering is of course a reaction, so that argument makes sense, but it's not the only way to counter. Sometimes you have to take a blow rather than avoid it, that would be more of a Con synergy.

There are additional arguments to be made for the other abilities as well, but I'm freaking tired, so I'm going to make you play devil's advocate for yourself.

How would this impact game design? Well, if I was building a system from the ground up, I would want options for combining traits from different abilities to make unique characters. A classic spear and shield warrior could be Str based for damage, with Dex based multiple attack routines, and Int based precision strikes OR he could be based on Wis and Int to strike with deadly precision after identifying an opening. Same class, different play style. I'd just tie the combat skills to a wider range of abilities than we traditionally use.

Actually, i may start working some of this out just to see how it develops.

Sorry again for the side bar.

Troop types:

Phalanx Pikeman, Pirate, Flashy Gladiator, Knife Fighter, Nubian Hunter, Brawler, Wrestler, Musketeer, Swiss Halbrideer, Light Fencer, Heavy Cavalry, Dragoon, Berserker.

Cluedrew
2018-04-16, 04:59 PM
Having come to terms with that, I'm not sure I was wrong to do so, or at least to dismiss that line of thinking without letting it run its course.Oh no, I think it is a bit awkward for talking about these things generally, but there are some advantages. For instance it gives you some very obvious hooks to start building these archetypes from, which is to say the stats.

Anyways, you seem to have covered what you can do with it, so I think I will leave it at that.