Disparity between casters and melee

[Aetis]

I believe there is no need to go any further regarding the original topic. I've realized that I've modulated the game enough that further discussion will only be more of "casters can do this", "yes but not in my game", or in other words, unfruitful.

A shorter, and simpler question that arises though:

I assume you guys are all okay with the disparity? Surely, some of you have attempted to curve the disparity somewhat? I suppose implementing the Book of Nine Swords and banning out some of the more overpowered caster shenanigans would qualify, but surely nothing beats magic at the high levels. Do you play with mostly a caster party in that case? How would campaigns at those levels work, when the characters in play are so powerful? The only times I have played at those levels (20~epic) were as a player, and were very dysfunctional campaigns, both combat and plot-wise. (The DM was somewhat inept, though :smallannoyed:)

I always treated the high level tables as the abyssal zones of oceans, with immense pressure crushing all significant life forms. I am genuinely curious, and I'm expecting to receive all kinds of strange and variable answers.
Topic changed.

[Nifft]

ToB characters aren't worthless, that's exaggeration to the point of hyperbole.

ToB characters have a power ceiling which is lower than full-casters. That's the fact of the matter without exaggeration.

Individual characters may not reach that power ceiling, so it's quite possible to play in a game where you see a ToB character kicking butt all day long, while a nearby poorly-optimized Wizard just kind of putters ineffectually. That just means the ToB player is better at using the ToB character than the Wizard's player is at using the Wizard character.

[Cosi]

You have to remember, that in an actual game there are a lot of forces in play that are trying to avoid creating serious disparities between characters. People mostly don't optimize to a degree that would make other characters invalid, not because they can't but because it is understood (either explicitly or implicitly) to be impolite to do so. DMs make efforts to avoid situations where casters dominate, or to create situations where mundanes contribute. Also, yes, the level range is going to reduce the impact of disparity.

The reason disparity is problematic is because it means that certain kinds of plots can't happen. If casters go to eleven, and mundanes struggle to make it to four, then you can't tell stories that involve going to eleven. That sucks, because there are lots of cool stories where that happens. But you can still have fun with the stories where casters haven't reached the point mundanes can't.

[Aetis]

Uh... the thread is about non-ToB melee characters.

[Aetis]

The reason disparity is problematic is because it means that certain kinds of plots can't happen. If casters go to eleven, and mundanes struggle to make it to four, then you can't tell stories that involve going to eleven. That sucks, because there are lots of cool stories where that happens. But you can still have fun with the stories where casters haven't reached the point mundanes can't.

I guess that makes sense. Campaigns like where PCs are tracking down an interplanar fugitive can't happen if all I've got are 4 melee PCs and they go "uh... we can't cast plane shift".

But what about in combat? I've never had a problem where melee guys sit there sucking thumb while casters are doing Harry Potter duels. Is this just a matter of the level range?

[Nifft]

Uh... the thread is about non-ToB melee characters.

Oh, derp.

Well, everything I said also applies to non-ToB melee as well, it's just that the power ceiling for non-ToB melee is even lower than it is for ToB.


The heart of the issue is that casters can trivialize melee -- can, not automatically do, it does take effort and can require planning.

[Kish]

Hi, guys. I have found that popular opinion on the site tends to treat non-ToB melee characters as next to worthless compared to casters, and I have been curious about that. In my games, I've never found the melees to be lacking in effectiveness or desperately needing spotlight compared to the casters. I understand that we don't play at high levels (maybe to lv 10~12?) or with extreme amounts of optimization where magic becomes too much to handle for just about anyone, but (I like to think that) we optimize a decent amount in our games. Perhaps we are not doing enough with casters?

Please enlighten me so that I, too, will be able to partake in this caster supremacy.
You mentioned that your concept of "melee" here is "uberchargers."

That's about as extreme as optimization for melee gets.

[Aetis]

You mentioned that your concept of "melee" here is "uberchargers."

That's about as extreme as optimization for melee gets.

Wait, it is?

Hmm... maybe my perception of optimization is wrong then.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

You mentioned that your concept of "melee" here is "uberchargers."

That's about as extreme as optimization for melee gets.

And that's sad.

Well, crazy Gishes exist but I'm pretty sure that they break the spirit of the question here.

The disparity between magic and melee is very noticeable in any games that aren't dungeoncrawls (or dungeoncrawls disguised as outdoor roaming or whatever). Put a fighter in front of an investigation plot or an intrigue challenge or a stealth operation, and he'll have to try to find a way to leverage his fighting skills to resolve it. Put a cleric or wizard in front of one, and (with a few days to learn the right spells if for some reason the wizard has no spells that fit the task) from level 5 or so onwards spellcasters can find a whole bunch of ways to get through any difficulty. Sure having a melee guy around helps - but the disposable PC is the fighter.
Fighters can fight.
Most spellcasters can fight, but also have utility/intrigue spells and also have more better class skills or more skill points than pure fighters (rogues and such don't apply of course, they also have a ton of options - it's just that those options will usually use magic because it makes everything easier).

YMMV, of course. Players and GMs can do a lot to stop this from being noticeable!

[DMVerdandi]

You mentioned that your concept of "melee" here is "uberchargers."

That's about as extreme as optimization for melee gets.

This is a great point.
Just waxing from here on..

Being able to adjust fire is one of the things that make the so called tiers.
If you play a druid, you could fill your list with the same spell in each level, and it be something silly, like a swim spell when you are in the desert.
You get 1 day of suck, and the next you can make the changes necessary to aid the party.


You have an idea to make a tough, knife wielding fighter, and you take toughness for all of your feats.
57 extra hit points. over a 20 level career. And all you have left is the fighter chassis [cough,warrior,cough] to rely on. FOREVER.
57 extra HP doesn't sound horrible, until you realized you have gimped yourself completely, and that it actually is horrible.


So ease of use and simplicity is a big factor. Melee classes are harder to use, and more complex, simply because they don't have a lot to work with. So Ubercharger IS the height of optimization you get. And that requires ALL your focus.

[Aetis]

So it turns out that melee characters in my games are heavily, heavily optimized, just to keep up with the casters.

I guess that explains it, then.

An aside, what would an actual optimized caster look like? One that is expecting combat, that is. I understand that the builds vary a lot depending on what books/material are legal, but I'm curious to see some of these caster builds that are considered "optimized" in the forum. (assume a sane and practical DM, obviously)

[Karl Aegis]

So it turns out that melee characters in my games are heavily, heavily optimized, just to keep up with the casters.

I guess that explains it, then.

An aside, what would an actual optimized caster look like? One that is expecting combat, that is. I understand that the builds vary a lot depending on what books/material are legal, but I'm curious to see some of these caster builds that are considered "optimized" in the forum. (assume a sane and practical DM, obviously)

They punch you to death because you can't actually do anything to them.

[Falontani]

So it turns out that melee characters in my games are heavily, heavily optimized, just to keep up with the casters.

I guess that explains it, then.

An aside, what would an actual optimized caster look like? One that is expecting combat, that is. I understand that the builds vary a lot depending on what books/material are legal, but I'm curious to see some of these caster builds that are considered "optimized" in the forum. (assume a sane and practical DM, obviously)

A caster that knows what is coming and can prepare. One that has used Divination and knows the enemies he will fight, their weaknesses, and their strengths. Now this caster armed with this knowledge changes their entire strategy to win. The enemy is something that flies and has huge fortitude saves but is basically a flying tank, well how does one combat that, oh wait I have a school of magic that turns dumb tanks into dumb slaves. ETC. They use foreknowledge to basically have the fight resolved before round 1 drops.

[Nifft]

So it turns out that melee characters in my games are heavily, heavily optimized, just to keep up with the casters.

I guess that explains it, then.

An aside, what would an actual optimized caster look like? One that is expecting combat, that is. I understand that the builds vary a lot depending on what books/material are legal, but I'm curious to see some of these caster builds that are considered "optimized" in the forum. (assume a sane and practical DM, obviously)

Some of the most optimal caster builds are actually support characters -- for example, the so-called "GOD Wizard" is a battlefield controller who doesn't do much damage personally, but rather changes the battlefield such that the rest of the party can mop up in relative safety. Those sorts of builds aren't disruptive to melee-centric parties, but they are very powerful.

Other types of optimal casters are built around applying Persistent Spell to effects that are supposed to be limited in duration, for example wraithstrike (allowing a gish to make melee weapon attacks as Touch attacks all day).

[exelsisxax]

So it turns out that melee characters in my games are heavily, heavily optimized, just to keep up with the casters.

I guess that explains it, then.

An aside, what would an actual optimized caster look like? One that is expecting combat, that is. I understand that the builds vary a lot depending on what books/material are legal, but I'm curious to see some of these caster builds that are considered "optimized" in the forum. (assume a sane and practical DM, obviously)

Scry-and-die: make use of divinations, teleportations, and readied actions to instagib any enemy at any range regardless of initiative.

[Pleh]

An aside, what would an actual optimized caster look like? One that is expecting combat, that is. I understand that the builds vary a lot depending on what books/material are legal, but I'm curious to see some of these caster builds that are considered "optimized" in the forum. (assume a sane and practical DM, obviously)

"Assume sane and practical DM" changes the answer from TO (theoretical optimization) to PO (practical optimization).

A few Optimization tricks flirt the line and fall under, "ask your DM," but the basic gist of caster (practical) optimization seems to go like, "spells are awesome, get more spells." This means more spells per day, more metamagic, expanding spell lists, summoning creatures to cast spells for you, bypassing spell costs/restrictions, and just pumping spell DC up so they always work as intended.

Past that point, it's mostly choosing the Game Changer spells and getting access to them as early as possible. At low level, invisibility/silence, flight, color spray, are the primary ways to trivialize combat, then later up start upgrading to polymorph, teleport, Gate, contingency, creating custom demi planes, etc. Optimized casters bend the whole universe over their knee and don't get into combat because they can just snap their fingers to neutralize an enemy's combat strategy (unless they are themselves sufficiently magical to also control reality and use Game Changing strategies).

[Aetis]

Casters generally do not know what is coming in my games, and therefore is often unable to prepare the correct counters. It's difficult to see what kind of monsters might exist in the dungeon, other than what you hear from NPCs. Or perhaps PCs are in a town, and it's difficult to assess which NPC will be hostile to you in the future encounters, or what combat strategies NPCs employ in combat. Perhaps this is why I feel casters don't display overwhelming combat abilities in my games.

As for game changing spells, well, I have mixed feelings about them. On one hand, color spray is great. On other hand, a 15ft cone probably isn't going to be very effective against 14 goblins that are spread out and coming from multiple directions while you're trying to keep a NPC alive. Perhaps in higher levels there does exist very powerful spells, but in the levels I'm talking about I don't know if I agree with you that there always exists some spell that is the "correct answer" to an encounter that trivializes the encounter, or that the caster necessarily has the spell prepared for the situation.

[exelsisxax]

Casters generally do not know what is coming in my games, and therefore is often unable to prepare the correct counters. It's difficult to see what kind of monsters might exist in the dungeon, other than what you hear from NPCs. Or perhaps PCs are in a town, and it's difficult to assess which NPC will be hostile to you in the future encounters, or what combat strategies NPCs employ in combat. Perhaps this is why I feel casters don't display overwhelming combat abilities in my games.

As for game changing spells, well, I have mixed feelings about them. On one hand, color spray is great. On other hand, a 15ft cone probably isn't going to be very effective against 14 goblins that are spread out and coming from multiple directions while you're trying to keep a NPC alive. Perhaps in higher levels there does exist very powerful spells, but in the levels I'm talking about I don't know if I agree with you that there always exists some spell that is the "correct answer" to an encounter that trivializes the encounter, or that the caster necessarily has the spell prepared for the situation.

Then you haven't experienced optimized casters. The point is that they can know exactly what is in the dungeon and prepare exactly the spells they need, because scry and all the divinations like it. When your class ability is "do basically anything with prep", and "determine every strength and weakness, resource and vulnerability of your enemy at arbitrary range without them become aware" is a doable thing, you really can always have the right answer ready.

[Goaty14]

Casters generally do not know what is coming in my games, and therefore is often unable to prepare the correct counters. It's difficult to see what kind of monsters might exist in the dungeon, other than what you hear from NPCs. Or perhaps PCs are in a town, and it's difficult to assess which NPC will be hostile to you in the future encounters, or what combat strategies NPCs employ in combat. Perhaps this is why I feel casters don't display overwhelming combat abilities in my games.

Then they aren't using enough dinivations :smallcool:

I mean, even if a caster didn't know what was coming, the super-optimized-caster-of-doom* has a bajillion contingencies to make himself immune to almost any threat.

*Worth noting that casters only really become *that* optimized when you reach higher levels. If you never really get to level 15 you're probably safe (though general casters outpacing mundanes starts at level 5).

[Aetis]

Say that PCs are hired out to get rid of this dragon menace that has been terrorizing a duchy.

Sure, the PCs can scry and magically scout the lair of the dragon, maybe prying eyes around the surrounding area and see what kind of monsters they might run into, but how would they know that there is a separate group of drow who have been itching to hunt the creature for themselves, bribed the duke's closest adviser to hire the PCs for such a deed, and will ambush the PCs the moment their fight with the dragon ends?

[Nifft]

Casters generally do not know what is coming in my games, and therefore is often unable to prepare the correct counters. It's difficult to see what kind of monsters might exist in the dungeon, other than what you hear from NPCs. Or perhaps PCs are in a town, and it's difficult to assess which NPC will be hostile to you in the future encounters, or what combat strategies NPCs employ in combat. Perhaps this is why I feel casters don't display overwhelming combat abilities in my games. Spells are great for scouting. If you're allowed to take an extra day before you plunder the dungeon, you can scout it with spells directly, or with lesser planar binding (assuming you can convince the monster that scouting is a non-combat task, which it might be if you get a stealthy or incorporeal target).

If your group plays kick in the door style D&D -- which is an awesome style, don't get me wrong -- but if you play in that style, then you're discarding a lot of the power that prepared casters could bring to bear. That's fine.

Being more powerful is only optimal if it increases your group's fun.


As for game changing spells, well, I have mixed feelings about them. On one hand, color spray is great. On other hand, a 15ft cone probably isn't going to be very effective against 14 goblins that are spread out and coming from multiple directions while you're trying to keep a NPC alive. Sure, that's why you use Sculpt Spell (perhaps from a Metamagic Rod) to turn color spray into a 40 ft. cone, or into four 10 ft. cubes. That's a level 2 spell slot (if it was prepared with the feat), or a level 1 spell slot and 1/3 of an item's daily uses. Sculpt Spell is a solid feat, and it's quite plausible that a PC would buy that Rod or taking that feat.

If you have a Lesser Rod of Sculpt Spell but you didn't prepare color spray, then grease would also change the encounter. Or the caster could use glitterdust. Neither of those directly ends the encounter, but any of those 3 spells will tend make the goblins a lot less effective, and they're NOT the only spells that could have been chosen.

This is a good case-study in how a spellcaster gets more tools, and how their tools can have a multiplicative effect on combat.

What could a Barbarian do against 14 goblins that are spread out and coming from multiple directions while trying to keep an NPC alive?


Perhaps in higher levels there does exist very powerful spells, but in the levels I'm talking about I don't know if I agree with you that there always exists some spell that is the "correct answer" to an encounter that trivializes the encounter, or that the caster necessarily has the spell prepared for the situation. 1/ Scrolls. Every Wizard by default has the ability to turn cash + downtime into more utility power. You're probably NOT going to use scrolls in combat, because they'll tend to be behind your prepared spells in terms of saving throw & caster level, but having a lot of utility spells on tap can help you either avoid trouble, or confront trouble on your own terms.

2/ Allies. Druids get an Animal Companion, plus awaken to make friends from trees. Bards and Wizards get charm person to make friends from muggles, which are inferior to trees but cheaper in terms of XP. Later they get dominate instead. Wizards also get planar binding. Clerics have animate dead and Rebuke Undead to make friends from bodies.

3/ Information. With a spell like speak with dead, can ask a corpse what killed him or her. You could also ask plants, animals, or rocks. Again, this is more useful in a careful / cautious playstyle, but even the most gung-ho party might see an investigation quest occasionally.

[exelsisxax]

Say that PCs are hired out to get rid of this dragon menace that has been terrorizing a duchy.

Sure, the PCs can scry and magically scout the lair of the dragon, maybe prying eyes around the surrounding area and see what kind of monsters they might run into, but how would they know that there is a separate group of drow who have been itching to hunt the creature for themselves, bribed the duke's closest adviser to hire the PCs for such a deed, and will ambush the PCs the moment their fight with the dragon ends?

You mean they don't have an immense bonus to sense motive on at least one character, if not outright mind-reading? They're not doing it right.

[GrayDeath]

Say that PCs are hired out to get rid of this dragon menace that has been terrorizing a duchy.

Sure, the PCs can scry and magically scout the lair of the dragon, maybe prying eyes around the surrounding area and see what kind of monsters they might run into, but how would they know that there is a separate group of drow who have been itching to hunt the creature for themselves, bribed the duke's closest adviser to hire the PCs for such a deed, and will ambush the PCs the moment their fight with the dragon ends?

By letting the Rogue use Knowledge Local/Scouting/Etc andgenerally keeping on top of things?
There is never NO way to prepare/find information if necessary.

Unless of course they are not used to such complicated settings/Adventures, then its your fault as DM for ****ing them over. Not that I am implying anything, mind. :)




More general: THere are reasons I only ever allow spontaneous casters in my groups (and we do use some homebrew to reduce the cliff seperating the classes). Still, its a fact, casters are simply better overall.

[Karl Aegis]

Say that PCs are hired out to get rid of this dragon menace that has been terrorizing a duchy.

Sure, the PCs can scry and magically scout the lair of the dragon, maybe prying eyes around the surrounding area and see what kind of monsters they might run into, but how would they know that there is a separate group of drow who have been itching to hunt the creature for themselves, bribed the duke's closest adviser to hire the PCs for such a deed, and will ambush the PCs the moment their fight with the dragon ends?

Punch the dragon to death, punch the drow to death, punch the duke to death. What are they going to do, spend five rounds on a DC 20 Knowledge(Religion) check to make your real body appear? If that happens just walk away and punch them to death later. Resort to spells if you have to, but, really, you can just punch to death the vast majority of monsters.

[skunk3]

So it turns out that melee characters in my games are heavily, heavily optimized, just to keep up with the casters.

I guess that explains it, then.

An aside, what would an actual optimized caster look like? One that is expecting combat, that is. I understand that the builds vary a lot depending on what books/material are legal, but I'm curious to see some of these caster builds that are considered "optimized" in the forum. (assume a sane and practical DM, obviously)

I'm thinking something like wizard/incantrix/dweomerkeeper with maybe some archmage or something else thrown in... in other words, way too powerful for most tables lol

[Aetis]

Nifft, your solution is more effective than the standard color spray, but they would still at best disable maybe 1/4 to a 1/3 of the goblins, assuming all the ones in the area failed the save. Plus, a spellcaster can only do that so many times a day. If we assume lv 3, the wizard can only do it twice a day. (presumably the lesser rod of sculpt is too expensive for a lv 3 wizard to afford)

By himself, barbarian would kill the goblins slowly while the princess got kidnapped. I think maybe with enough casters disabling the goblins and melee characters to protect the flanks, the PCs can handle the job.

exelsisxaxm, Mindreading/sense motive would only reveal that the duke was advised by his adviser to sought out help from the PCs to kill the dragon. I don't know if that would be enough for the PCs to go investigate the duke's adviser.

GrayDeath, the rogue could probably do some sleuthing around, but probably not spellcasters.

Karl Aegis, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Presumably, you're talking about a build that I am not familiar with.

[Nifft]

Nifft, your solution is more effective than the standard color spray, but they would still at best disable maybe 1/4 to a 1/3 of the goblins, assuming all the ones in the area failed the save. Plus, a spellcaster can only do that so many times a day. If we assume lv 3, the wizard can only do it twice a day. (presumably the lesser rod of sculpt is too expensive for a lv 3 wizard to afford) Yeah I was assuming a higher-level Wizard.

14 goblins (CR 1/3) are a Very Difficult encounter for a party of four PCs.

If I had to protect an NPC, then I'd probably do something like cast invisibility on the NPC, and then try to kill the goblins. With 3 minutes of invisibility, the NPC ought to be relatively safe for the duration of the combat.

If I didn't prep invisibility, then something like instructing my Familiar to fly somewhere safe, then benign transposition the NPC and the Familiar. Unless there's nowhere safe, in which case save that for when the NPC gets grabbed, and benign transposition the party Barbarian <-> the NPC.

If I don't want to fight, then whipping out a scroll of obscuring fog might be the best thing to do -- we'd all run away, and we'd buy up to 1 minute of head start. Hopefully that would be enough to get us to a more advantageous location.


By himself, barbarian would kill the goblins slowly while the princess got kidnapped. I think maybe with enough casters disabling the goblins and melee characters to protect the flanks, the PCs can handle the job.

Well, sure. If you assume casters + brutes, then you can get a lot of jobs done. I thought you were asking about the distinction between a team of casters + brutes vs. a pure brute squad.

Of course there are casters who are also brutes. Clerics and Druids are great at both, for example.

[Karl Aegis]

Nifft, your solution is more effective than the standard color spray, but they would still at best disable maybe 1/4 to a 1/3 of the goblins, assuming all the ones in the area failed the save. Plus, a spellcaster can only do that so many times a day. If we assume lv 3, the wizard can only do it twice a day. (presumably the lesser rod of sculpt is too expensive for a lv 3 wizard to afford)

By himself, barbarian would kill the goblins slowly while the princess got kidnapped. I think maybe with enough casters disabling the goblins and melee characters to protect the flanks, the PCs can handle the job.

exelsisxaxm, Mindreading/sense motive would only reveal that the duke was advised by his adviser to sought out help from the PCs to kill the dragon. I don't know if that would be enough for the PCs to go investigate the duke's adviser.

GrayDeath, the rogue could probably do some sleuthing around, but probably not spellcasters.

Karl Aegis, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Presumably, you're talking about a build that I am not familiar with.

That's the thing. It isn't a build. It's casting a handful of spells from scrolls and a (powerful) race. You still have the rest of your build to play with.

You just need be a necropolitan and then you need to make an object out of obdurium (preferably a statue of yourself), cast hardening (preferably with a higher caster level) and permanency on your object, and then cast haunt shift to possess your object. Voila, you are now untargetable and are free to do whatever you want because only a handful of monsters have a chance of even doing anything to you.

All you need is the required spells on your class list, an undead race without too many hit dice and enough gold to buy scrolls of the spells. Feel free to fill the rest of your levels with Fighter or something.

[Aetis]

Well, with enough PC barbarians, you can form a solid wall of meat between the escortee and the threat...

14 goblins in an escort situation is at the level of what I throw at my players at lv 1. I agree that it is a very tough situation for the PCs, but the players (and I) enjoy the challenge.

I guess my point was that casters don't always enjoy perfect information of what the fight is going to be, and there are many challenges that a melee character can contribute just as well as casters.

[Aetis]

That's the thing. It isn't a build. It's casting a handful of spells from scrolls and a (powerful) race. You still have the rest of your build to play with.

You just need be a necropolitan and then you need to make an object out of obdurium (preferably a statue of yourself), cast hardening (preferably with a higher caster level) and permanency on your object, and then cast haunt shift to possess your object. Voila, you are now untargetable and are free to do whatever you want because only a handful of monsters have a chance of even doing anything to you.

All you need is the required spells on your class list, an undead race without too many hit dice and enough gold to buy scrolls of the spells. Feel free to fill the rest of your levels with Fighter or something.

I would certainly guess that your DM, among many many other DMs, would not allow this.

[Nifft]

Well, with enough PC barbarians, you can form a solid wall of meat between the escortee and the threat... You could do the same thing with half the number of PCs, if they were all Druids.


However, I have to ask: do you really allow your players to play any number of Barbarians, or one caster? Because that'd be an odd game.

If the choice is between one PC Barbarian or one full-caster, then the full-caster tends to have more potential power. But that's just potential -- the caster PC needs to be played well for the latent power disparity to become real.

[Karl Aegis]

I would certainly guess that your DM, among many many other DMs, would not allow this.

Just pick and choose what immunities you want, then. It scales down to spells that give blanket immunities to a variety of effects such as Death Ward.

[Falontani]

Wait I can play a battalion of Ubercharging Barbarians or 1 caster.... I think I'll play the spellcaster, kill off the barbarians, animate their corpses, and continue on.

[Zombulian]

This is a good case-study in how a spellcaster gets more tools, and how their tools can have a multiplicative effect on combat.

What could a Barbarian do against 14 goblins that are spread out and coming from multiple directions while trying to keep an NPC alive?


This is a very important point that I think bears repeating.
It's not that every caster is going to trivialize every encounter, but rather that they have more tools in the toolbox to deal with different problems.
Asking questions based on a hypothetical scenario like with the goblins doesn't prove that casters aren't all that good, it would be hard to deal with, but a mundane would likely have an even harder time dealing with that issue.
This is where the disparity lies.

[Aetis]

I jest regarding barbarians.

I agree full casters have more potential, but I also believe that people on this forum overestimate the amount of perfect preparation the full casters are able to do.

[exelsisxax]

I would certainly guess that your DM, among many many other DMs, would not allow this.

You passed that threshold long before hitting uberchargers. Nothing in this thread so far is worse than that, just more useful.

[Aetis]

You think ubercharging is more overpowered than self-obdurian-statue haunting necropolitan?

[exelsisxax]

You think ubercharging is more overpowered than self-obdurian-statue haunting necropolitan?

No, what I said was that ubercharges broke into a million pieces the optimization threshold you specified, so you have nothing to complain about.

[Aetis]

You mean when I said what "sane and practical DMs would allow?" Why wouldn't sane and practical DMs legalize ubercharging?

All it does is damage and there are a million ways to shut it down.

[exelsisxax]

You mean when I said what "sane and practical DMs would allow?" Why wouldn't sane and practical DMs legalize ubercharging?

All it does is damage and there are a million ways to shut it down.

Because an ubercharger can literally destroy the universe with a single attack routine, and most of the steps along the way are shenanigans.

[Aetis]

And why would a sane and practical DM allow these shenanigans?

They would allow the normal ubercharging, not allow PCs to destroy the universe with a single attack routine.

[ComaVision]

You mean when I said what "sane and practical DMs would allow?" Why wouldn't sane and practical DMs legalize ubercharging?

All it does is damage and there are a million ways to shut it down.

Some people never transition to a different style of play at higher levels. I've played with a handful of those people. An ubercharger is overwhelmingly powerful under those conditions.

[Aetis]

I'm starting to feel that ubercharging means one thing to me, and entirely a different thing to you guys.

[exelsisxax]

And why would a sane and practical DM allow these shenanigans?

They would allow the normal ubercharging, not allow PCs to destroy the universe with a single attack routine.

The shenanigans aren't equivocating and bad rules interpretation, it's hulking hurler + str bonuses = many thousands of damage before you optimize. If you decide to optimize, with a few size increases and you can start piledriving the planet with mountains. Try hard enough, and you can just throw the planet at the sun so hard the universe takes several trillion trillion damage.

It's all RAW.

[Karl Aegis]

I'm starting to feel that ubercharging means one thing to me, and entirely a different thing to you guys.

It does. Uberchargers tend to only get an eight to ten times multiplier to charge attacks, but a Hood gets sixteen times. I don't know how you can destroy an entire universe with a single attack routine because statting out a universe tends to require third party material.

[Aetis]

The shenanigans aren't equivocating and bad rules interpretation, it's hulking hurler + str bonuses = many thousands of damage before you optimize. If you decide to optimize, with a few size increases and you can start piledriving the planet with mountains. Try hard enough, and you can just throw the planet at the sun so hard the universe takes several trillion trillion damage.

It's all RAW.

Sure, but that doesn't stop the sane and practical DM from banning hulking hurler and other pieces of this combo.

[Mordaedil]

I agree full casters have more potential, but I also believe that people on this forum overestimate the amount of perfect preparation the full casters are able to do.

Well, yeah, but if we just took for granted what happens in a normal good game, that means we can't prepare someone for when they get that guy at the table. And being ready to figure out how to deal with the guy with the answers to beat your challenge is to recognize and talk about the tools the classes have available. And that's where the tier system comes from. You just kinda gotta be ready to deal with casters having a toolbox that mundanes lack access to. Of course, if the casters don't use those tools to their fullest, there is no issue. This is why most tables have no issue.

But sometimes you might just get that one tool thrown your way and have to deal with it. And that's why caster supremacy became a thing, especially among groups that forms at cons and the like.

[exelsisxax]

Sure, but that doesn't stop the sane and practical DM from banning hulking hurler and other pieces of this combo.

Banning... strength and size bonuses? So Wish is fine, it's just barbarians that are a step too far?

[Aetis]

Banning... strength and size bonuses? So Wish is fine, it's just barbarians that are a step too far?

I mean, Throw Anything + heavy things is the backbone of the combo, no?

It seems to me that banning Throw Anything already gets rid of trillions of damage from your combo.

[Karl Aegis]

I mean, Throw Anything + heavy things is the backbone of the combo, no?

It seems to me that banning Throw Anything already gets rid of trillions of damage from your combo.

The backbone of the combo is Polymorph, Giant Size, and Hulking Hurler. Caster things.

[Aetis]

The backbone of the combo is Polymorph, Giant Size, and Hulking Hurler. Caster things.

Are you sure it's not that table at the back of the Complete Warrior that lists thrown object damage?

If I capped that table, it really doesn't matter how big you get.

I mean, you'd do damage. You would do a lot of damage. You won't do trillions of damage.

[Karl Aegis]

You don't do trillions of damage because first party material doesn't have trillions of health.

[Aetis]

The shenanigans aren't equivocating and bad rules interpretation, it's hulking hurler + str bonuses = many thousands of damage before you optimize. If you decide to optimize, with a few size increases and you can start piledriving the planet with mountains. Try hard enough, and you can just throw the planet at the sun so hard the universe takes several trillion trillion damage.

It's all RAW.

His words, not mine.

[Tvtyrant]

Perfect example of the disparity: an ubercharger can one shot a gigantic dumb animal with damage. A wizard can do the same but keep it alive for training/selling/dominating with Ray of Stupidity.

The same wizard can take out a smart giant beast with Lehm's Finger Darts or Shivering Touch, the ubercharger needs to have flight and a clear shot to do it.

A Wizard can deal with a Wall of Force with disintegrate, an ubercharger can't.

A wizard can teleport, planeshift, and make himself immune to mind effects and elemental damage. The ubercharger requires a mountain of costly items to accomplish this.

Essentially a highly optimized mundane can be replaced with a few second level spells, while a wizard replacement requires millions of gold pieces.

[Venger]

Aetis, what exactly do you want out of this thread? When people come in and teach something to you, you say you ban it in your game or explain why they're wrong. Do you want to learn about how t1 casters work? Do you want to know what ubercharging is? What information would you like to learn?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hi, guys. I have found that popular opinion on the site tends to treat non-ToB melee characters as next to worthless compared to casters, and I have been curious about that. In my games, I've never found the melees to be lacking in effectiveness or desperately needing spotlight compared to the casters. I understand that we don't play at high levels (maybe to lv 10~12?) or with extreme amounts of optimization where magic becomes too much to handle for just about anyone, but (I like to think that) we optimize a decent amount in our games. Perhaps we are not doing enough with casters?

Please enlighten me so that I, too, will be able to partake in this caster supremacy.

It -does- get exaggerated a bit but caster supremacy is definitely a real phenomenon. Although it's more accurate to call it spell supremacy.

The nature of the game is such that -almost- any problem can be nuked with the appropriate magical effect and some problems demand a magical response. While most effects are available for purchase, casters get access to huge swathes of the array of things for very, very low opportunity cost and prepared casters can swap what they have available from one day to the next to boot.

Take your 14 goblins example; they're spread out at the start, sure, but unless you're in a wide-open plain it should be possible to corral most of them through clever positioning and the greater speed afforded by several low-level spells so that you can trash them with a save-or-suck option like sleep or even just a good ol' fireball.

Even if it's not 100% victory on the spot, you've probably cut the encounter in half. Nothing a non-caster can do at the same level comes close to that. When the non-casters reach the point they could supreme cleave through the entire cadre, the caster could turn into a pyrohydra and just be a walking inferno for the better part of a minute. This is just direct combat.

Out of combat, a caster can quite literally bend the world to his will with the right spells. Divinations, enchantment, conjurations, and transmutations can all do things that take immensely more time, resources, and people to do without magic if they can be done at all. Then there's the purely magical nature of illusion, necromancy, evocation, and abjuration; the things regularly done through these schools of magic are largely impossible to emulate any other way.

When you combine these factors with even a modicum of strategic acumen and good knowledge of what actually is available, the fact that caster < non-caster becomes undeniable.

Sidenote; a smart charger doesn't put all his resources into doing more damage. Every point of overkill is wasted resources so you put -enough- into making the thing dead and the rest into getting to the thing to kill it.

[Aetis]

Alright, alright, you guys.

I wasn't encountering the same caster supremacy in my games (in stark contrast to the worldview painted by GITP forums), and I wanted to see if I was doing something wrong in my games. The casters were certainly strong, and incredibly flexible compared to their martial counterparts, but not to the degree described here. I think the underlying problem is that I've modulated the game enough that arguments don't quite match up any more, and your points keep going over my head.

I'll give this matter a rest. I've read all your replies, and I thank you for the time you've put into replying to my question.

[Pleh]

Note that the goblin scenario is low level.

About the only thing a low level barbarian has in the ubercharging build is pounce, power attack, and THF. Pounce isn't even giving them that much bonus yet because a full attack at the end of a charge is still just 1 attack (unless you've got natural attacks from your race, but then you probably are higher level from monster hd).

You aren't doing a whole lot more than the level 1 caster with Color Spray, nor do your d12+con mod HP have much better chance of surviving 14 goblins a round than the caster's d4.

Finally, no one was even suggesting that the disparity is best measured at low level. Rather the opposite. You have to get past level 5 before disparity really starts to affect play (precisely why E6 cuts off at level 6).

The low level point was more about how casters still tend to have more options, even when the game is more properly balanced between classes.

[Goaty14]

ubercharging build is pounce, power attack, and THF. Pounce isn't even giving them that much bonus yet because a full attack at the end of a charge is still just 1 attack (unless you've got natural attacks from your race, but then you probably are higher level from monster hd)

Correction: Whirling Frenzy ACF from UA.

[Jack_Simth]

Casters generally do not know what is coming in my games, and therefore is often unable to prepare the correct counters. It's difficult to see what kind of monsters might exist in the dungeon, other than what you hear from NPCs. Or perhaps PCs are in a town, and it's difficult to assess which NPC will be hostile to you in the future encounters, or what combat strategies NPCs employ in combat. Perhaps this is why I feel casters don't display overwhelming combat abilities in my games.

As for game changing spells, well, I have mixed feelings about them. On one hand, color spray is great. On other hand, a 15ft cone probably isn't going to be very effective against 14 goblins that are spread out and coming from multiple directions while you're trying to keep a NPC alive. Perhaps in higher levels there does exist very powerful spells, but in the levels I'm talking about I don't know if I agree with you that there always exists some spell that is the "correct answer" to an encounter that trivializes the encounter, or that the caster necessarily has the spell prepared for the situation.

The standard Goblin Warrior 1 is CR 1/3rd. 2 would be Encounter Level (EL) 1, 4 would be EL 3, 8 would be EL 5. 14 is skirting the edge of EL 7. The general game expectation is that you'll mostly be facing +/- 2-3 EL from your level, with a party in support (and running if you face things tougher than that). You're pretty much expected to just Fireball the lot of them in that scenario, really, or cast Invisibility on the NPC you're protecting (or evacuate the meatbag into a Rope Trick, or cast Obscurring Mist and shuffle him a few feet, or....).

After all... 14 spread Goblins in a field and there's one NPC you need to keep alive? If the goblins are going for him and ignoring the dangerous targets, then he's taking some arrows regardless unless you can make him not there for a bit.

[Karl Aegis]

The standard Goblin Warrior 1 is CR 1/3rd. 2 would be Encounter Level (EL) 1, 4 would be EL 3, 8 would be EL 5. 14 is skirting the edge of EL 7. The general game expectation is that you'll mostly be facing +/- 2-3 EL from your level, with a party in support (and running if you face things tougher than that). You're pretty much expected to just Fireball the lot of them in that scenario, really, or cast Invisibility on the NPC you're protecting (or evacuate the meatbag into a Rope Trick, or cast Obscurring Mist and shuffle him a few feet, or....).

After all... 14 spread Goblins in a field and there's one NPC you need to keep alive? If the goblins are going for him and ignoring the dangerous targets, then he's taking some arrows regardless unless you can make him not there for a bit.

Shrink Item can create a disposable shelter for your NPC. Scrolls aren't that expensive. You can get weeks worth of these for everyone by level 8.

[Anthrowhale]

14 goblins vs. 4 level 1 PCs is supposed to be an 'overpowering' encounter (= automatic lose). Adding in the handicap of managing an NPC might add 1 more to the encounter level.

The reasonable response is to run away. All the good ways to do this involve using mounts which are extremely handy for increasing your speed at low levels. A wizard can cast 'Mount' for the NPC. Obviously, this could be combined with ranged attacks to whittle down pursuit and eventually win in combat.

In a stand-up fight, most parties should be cooked, since the goblins bring 14 ranged attacks/round to bear. 4 druids taking Wild Cohort (Riding Dog) and Animal Companion(Riding Dog) would effectively have a party of 12. Between the battlefield control of Entangle and the power disparity of Riding Dog over Goblin, I'd expect the Druids to win, possibly with casualties.

[Aetis]

Ok, guys, I will post one more time here just to clarify the goblin situation.

It's indoors: A church building shaped like a fat T without windows, about 60ft width and bit shorter in length. 3 doors, two 5ft long doors on either side of the end of the Ts, and one 10ft door at the bottom of the T. (the main entrance) None of the doors are lockable.

Goblins are weaker than the warrior goblins listed in SRD. They have 10s for stats with leather armor, no shield, a sling, and a club. They have 4 hp, 13 AC (+1 size, +2 leather armor), and +2 to hit (1 BAB, 1 size) for their club and slings, which do 1d4 and 1d3 damage respectively. Their saves are 2/0/0. They come in 4 each from each side of the T, and 6 through the main gate. They are after this holy teacup at the altar at the middle of the building. The goblins attack wildly, having confidence in their numbers to crush the opposition and retrieve the teacup.

PCs are lv 1s, with average starting gold for whatever their class. They have been hired to track down a fugitive (their spell preparations reflect that) and somehow got roped into protecting the building against the goblin invaders. This is the first major encounter of the day, and PCs know that they will likely encounter more encounters around this difficulty later in the day before they can refresh. I have played this encounter with three different parties, each with differing success.

One of them intentionally let the goblins take the teacup while decimating their numbers to track them down later. The other party successfully repelled the goblins, with few of them knocked unconscious via color spray/captured, and couple stragglers fleeing the fight. The third party was TPK'd the first run due to horrible luck, but was able to successfully complete the mission with all goblins destroyed on a re-run.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ok, guys, I will post one more time here just to clarify the goblin situation.

It's indoors: A church building shaped like a fat T without windows, about 60ft width and bit shorter in length. 3 doors, two 5ft long doors on either side of the end of the Ts, and one 10ft door at the bottom of the T. (the main entrance) None of the doors are lockable.

Goblins are weaker than the warrior goblins listed in SRD. They have 10s for stats with leather armor, no shield, a sling, and a club. They have 4 hp, 13 AC (+1 size, +2 leather armor), and +2 to hit (1 BAB, 1 size) for their club and slings, which do 1d4 and 1d3 damage respectively. Their saves are 2/0/0. They come in 4 each from each side of the T, and 6 through the main gate. They are after this holy teacup at the altar at the middle of the building. The goblins attack wildly, having confidence in their numbers to crush the opposition and retrieve the teacup.

PCs are lv 1s, with average starting gold for whatever their class. They have been hired to track down a fugitive (their spell preparations reflect that) and somehow got roped into protecting the building against the goblin invaders. This is the first major encounter of the day, and PCs know that they will likely encounter more encounters around this difficulty later in the day before they can refresh. I have played this encounter with three different parties, each with differing success.

One of them intentionally let the goblins take the teacup while decimating their numbers to track them down later. The other party successfully repelled the goblins, with few of them knocked unconscious via color spray/captured, and couple stragglers fleeing the fight. The third party was TPK'd the first run due to horrible luck, but was able to successfully complete the mission with all goblins destroyed on a re-run.

Oh. Easy win then. Pick a group, slap 'em with sleep, grab the cup and flee over their sleeping bodies. I'd probably target the group by the main entrance since the other two groups lose LoS when we flee that way. If killing them -really- matters, tell two of the others to flee with the cup while I setup behind a pew and wait for the ones from either side to gather in the middle then color spray (readied action).

If I'm a gray elf wizard with 20 int, that's dc 16 for the saves so that should leave about 3 standing at the end of two turns. If the fighter or cleric stayed with me, that shouldn't be much trouble and we can coup-de-grace the ones already down. Maybe save one to see why they want the cup. Hells, after dropping 10~11 of them with two spells, I might ask for a circumstance bonus on an intimidate to try and get the others to flee from us. Gobbos aren't exactly known for their courage or loyalty.

[Aetis]

My bad. Forgot to mention that moving the teacup off the altar lowers the protective barrier over the town, and this triggers bunch of townspeople kidnappings, which the first group had to deal with later.

Wouldn't the goblins see your wizard casting sleep, (duration of 1 round casting time), and attempt to interrupt via slings? I think color spray would be a safer option here.

Honestly, yeah, I agree. I think your solution pretty much works as presented. I don't think this is a difficult encounter, despite the overwhelming number advantage, numerous entrances for monsters, and an object PCs are supposed to protect. "Overwhelmingly difficult" my ass. The WotC's CR system is rubbish.

[Nebuul]

Hi, guys. I have found that popular opinion on the site tends to treat non-ToB melee characters as next to worthless compared to casters, and I have been curious about that. In my games, I've never found the melees to be lacking in effectiveness or desperately needing spotlight compared to the casters. I understand that we don't play at high levels (maybe to lv 10~12?) or with extreme amounts of optimization where magic becomes too much to handle for just about anyone, but (I like to think that) we optimize a decent amount in our games. Perhaps we are not doing enough with casters?

Please enlighten me so that I, too, will be able to partake in this caster supremacy.


The issue is that non-magic folks tend to progress on a linear scale. I.E. a level 20 fighter is numerically better by 20 levels than a level 1 fighter, plus some feats for added flare.

Magic users, on the other hand, grow exponentially with spell levels. A level 20 (Cleric/Wizard/Druid) is immeasurably better than a level 1 (Cleric/Wizard/Druid) because their spells just start breaking things in unimaginable ways. Also spell combos.

Just think of how much more powerful a level 5 wizard is than a level 5 fighter at finishing an encounter. If the wizard wins initiative, it's possible that the other team never even gets to act. Fighters simply don't tend to have that capability.

[Deophaun]

They are after this holy teacup at the altar at the middle of the building.
This is easy. Put multiple teacups on the altar. Prestidigitation them to make the holy teacup look mundane, and one of the other teacups to look golden. Use paint if necessary.

Let the gobbos take the obviously "holy" teacup.

Solved with a few copper worth of drinkware and a cantrip.

[Anthrowhale]

Ok, guys, I will post one more time here just to clarify the goblin situation.

It's indoors: A church building shaped like a fat T without windows, about 60ft width and bit shorter in length. 3 doors, two 5ft long doors on either side of the end of the Ts, and one 10ft door at the bottom of the T. (the main entrance) None of the doors are lockable.

Goblins are weaker than the warrior goblins listed in SRD. They have 10s for stats with leather armor, no shield, a sling, and a club. They have 4 hp, 13 AC (+1 size, +2 leather armor), and +2 to hit (1 BAB, 1 size) for their club and slings, which do 1d4 and 1d3 damage respectively. Their saves are 2/0/0. They come in 4 each from each side of the T, and 6 through the main gate. They are after this holy teacup at the altar at the middle of the building. The goblins attack wildly, having confidence in their numbers to crush the opposition and retrieve the teacup.

PCs are lv 1s, with average starting gold for whatever their class. They have been hired to track down a fugitive (their spell preparations reflect that) and somehow got roped into protecting the building against the goblin invaders. This is the first major encounter of the day, and PCs know that they will likely encounter more encounters around this difficulty later in the day before they can refresh. I have played this encounter with three different parties, each with differing success.

One of them intentionally let the goblins take the teacup while decimating their numbers to track them down later. The other party successfully repelled the goblins, with few of them knocked unconscious via color spray/captured, and couple stragglers fleeing the fight. The third party was TPK'd the first run due to horrible luck, but was able to successfully complete the mission with all goblins destroyed on a re-run.

So the hypothetical riding dog gang would wipe this out easily. Send 2 riding dogs at each group of 4 goblins and 4 at the group of 6 goblins. Every time the riding dog hits, it's a knock out (minimum 4 damage), and they have a 55% chance of hitting implying knocking out 4.4 goblins/round. You can almost certainly afford leather barding for the riding dogs making them AC 18 so the goblins have a 25% chance of hitting and doing 2.5 damage against 13 hp implying <1 dog worth of damage/round. It's spread out over multiple dogs and hence ineffective. The druids can probably just form a reserve guarding the cup against leakers with ranged attacks for dog support. This approach allows handling multiple encounters of similar scale over the day by reserving spells for more difficult situations.

With regards to difficulty level, the goblin downgrade makes them more like CR 1/4 which makes this merely 'very difficult' by WoTC standards.

[Aetis]

This is easy. Put multiple teacups on the altar. Prestidigitation them to make the holy teacup look mundane, and one of the other teacups to look golden. Use paint if necessary.

Let the gobbos take the obviously "holy" teacup.

Solved with a few copper worth of drinkware and a cantrip.

Your solution is a lot more elegant than resorting to combat, but it has the obvious drawback of the greedy little buggers thieving all the cups on the altar.

They'll take the "holy" cup, aye, but what's stopping them from fibbing the other ones?

Or maybe they weren't sure which one was holy and decided to take all the cups anyway just to be sure?



So the hypothetical riding dog gang would wipe this out easily. Send 2 riding dogs at each group of 4 goblins and 4 at the group of 6 goblins. Every time the riding dog hits, it's a knock out (minimum 4 damage), and they have a 55% chance of hitting implying knocking out 4.4 goblins/round. You can almost certainly afford leather barding for the riding dogs making them AC 18 so the goblins have a 25% chance of hitting and doing 2.5 damage against 13 hp implying almost <1 dog worth of damage/round. It's spread out over multiple dogs and hence ineffective. The druids can probably just form a reserve guarding the cup against leakers with ranged attacks for dog support. This approach allows handling multiple encounters of similar scale over the day by reserving spells for more difficult situations.

With regards to difficulty level, the goblin downgrade makes them more like CR 1/4 which makes this merely 'very difficult' by WoTC standards.

The math checks out. It's really not a difficult fight, and there are bound to be a lot of solutions. I also agree about the goblin downgrade making them more like CR 1/4, although PCs having to guard an item would probably still bump up the encounter CR to "overwhelmingly difficult".

Either way, I think WotC's CR system is rubbish.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My bad. Forgot to mention that moving the teacup off the altar lowers the protective barrier over the town, and this triggers bunch of townspeople kidnappings, which the first group had to deal with later.

Wouldn't the goblins see your wizard casting sleep, (duration of 1 round casting time), and attempt to interrupt via slings? I think color spray would be a safer option here.

Honestly, yeah, I agree. I think your solution pretty much works as presented. I don't think this is a difficult encounter, despite the overwhelming number advantage, numerous entrances for monsters, and an object PCs are supposed to protect. "Overwhelmingly difficult" my ass. The WotC's CR system is rubbish.

So same-ish plan but the cup stays where it is and the whole party ducks down the center lane to ambush the enemy after I zap 'em.

Question is; what does the no-caster party do with this scenario? I hope they've got solid WBL manipulation skill.

[Aetis]

4 lv 1 human fighters with 18 str, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Cleave with scale mail and a one handed weapon of some kind, and heavy wooden shield trivially cuts through this encounter.

4 lv 1 human barbarians with 18 Str, Extra rage, with scale mail and heavy wooden shield also trivially destroys this encounter.

Mix in reach weapons and actual battle tactics if you want to be extra sure, but yeah.

[Troacctid]

The disparity isn't really going to be very pronounced—or even visible at all—if you're level 1. In fact, I'd argue that Fighters and Barbarians are better than Wizards at level 1. They're both pretty frontloaded.

[Andor13]

A Fighter/Barbarian/Whatever can kill things as well or better than than a Wizard/Cleric/Druid. Generally speaking an even slightly well built melee type will do more single target damage than a caster, although casters can almost always do better area damage.

Killing things isn't the issue. D&D is a combat sim game, everyone can combat, that's the point.

A caster can kill something deader than a fighter (Trap the soul, etc.)
A caster can kill something and make its corpse his friend.
A caster can not kill something and still waltz through the encounter. (Charm, Fascinate, Sleep, etc)
A caster can not have to kill something because we're buddies now. (Charm, Dominate, etc)
A caster can not have to kill anything because his invisible summoned air elemental already brought him the McGuffin the NPCs were guarding.
A caster can fly.
A caster can breath under water.
A caster can talk to the weird NPC who doesn't know common.
A caster can go to other planes.
A caster can do in a day what a hundred men with shovels can do in a year.
A caster can do in an hour what a thousand men with all the tools cannot do at all.
A caster can cure the sick, heal the wounded, and raise the dead.
A caster can conjure food for the hungry, water for the thirsty, and shelter for the weary.

In combat, by and large a caster is no better than a warrior-type. Dead is dead, and warriors are good at making things dead. Although a good caster makes the warriors job infinitely easier.

Everywhere else, the casters have useful and powerful abilities, and the warrior types have a shovel.

[Troacctid]

In combat, by and large a caster is no better than a warrior-type. Dead is dead, and warriors are good at making things dead. Although a good caster makes the warriors job infinitely easier.
I disagree. Casters have many ways to instantly kill or completely disable opponents regardless of HP. And if they want to use damage, they can also deal HP damage more efficiently.

[Kelb_Panthera]

4 lv 1 human fighters with 18 str, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Cleave with scale mail and a one handed weapon of some kind, and heavy wooden shield trivially cuts through this encounter.

4 lv 1 human barbarians with 18 Str, Extra rage, with scale mail and heavy wooden shield also trivially destroys this encounter.

Mix in reach weapons and actual battle tactics if you want to be extra sure, but yeah.

Looking at the numbers and possible tactical breakdowns, bad tactics can make that awfully dicey. Certainly winnable but not a virtual guarantee without care.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Easy answer to this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?266559-Tier-System-for-Classes-(Rescued-from-MinMax)

Note that Tier 1 is all casters, and Tier 5 is all mundanes (and the healer).

[Elkad]

Goblin scenario.
Do the door open in or out?
How much setup time do we get? A round? That's plenty. Honestly I can probably do it by winning initiative.

3 Warriors with 12 dex, Combat Reflexes, a 2d4 reach weapon (guisarme) and a 14str. (or any reach weapon and 16str), plus gauntlets and some missile weapons (javelins are fine). Studded leather will do for armor.
Human Conjuration Wizard. I'll skip Focused Specialist. And I won't trade my familiar for Abrupt Jaunt. Enchantment and Evocation banned.
My items are.. A quarterstaff, Scroll of Hold Portal, Scroll of Enlarge Person, 25gp of standard adventuring gear. I'll add a couple more scrolls if I get to craft them myself.
Familiar is a the standard black cat. It takes 10 on it's Hide check (for 26) adjacent to the altar, towards the main door.

2 popular feats - Cloudy Conjuration and Improved Initiative.

Completely standard combat spell loadout.

L1 spells.
Color Spray
Blockade
Grease
L0 Spells
Caltrops x3
Prestidigitation (because if you can't mull your wine (spices and heat both) with mystic powers, why are you a wizard anyway?).

I stand 10' from a side door. I have a readied action. When either side door starts to move, I cast hold portal from the scroll on the far one, and Blockade (swift) preventing the near one from swinging in.
Cloudy Conjuration goes on the other side of me (so it's door.blockade.me.cloud).
My henchmen are on either side of the main door, with readied actions to kill goblins in reach, plus 2 attacks of opportunity each.
6 goblins rush in the main door. My 3 warriors get 3 swings each. That's going to drop 4.5 of the goblins statistically.
4 goblins attempt the DC23 break check on the Hold Portal door. That's 3 rolls of 10 (Aid Another), and a 17 (slightly better than 1 in 40). Or 2 10s and a 19 (3 in 80). About 5 in 80 total, or 1 in 16. I've likely got some time.
4 goblins attempt to push open the Blockaded Door. They can drag (100*.75*5) 375lbs each, so 1500lbs. The Blockade weighs 2000lbs. It's not moving either.

Round 2. I move up to 30' towards the altar standing on one corner of it (not between the goblins and it). I cast Caltrops, and place the cloud in front of me. Like this.
A=Altar, W=Wizard, K=Kitty, C=Caltrops, F=Fog
---
-A-
WKC
F--_

1.5 Goblins? Double-move to the altar? Die to the warriors? If they rush, they'll likely run right into my cat's square, instead of the cloud or the caltrops. It holds it's action until both goblins have moved, then makes 3 attacks on the Goblin sharing a square. It needs a 9 to hit, so 1.5 damage done. If they charge me, they will still end up in kitty's square, or in my cloud (sickened), or maybe step on a Caltrop.
My warriors charge the goblins from behind. Kitty gives flanking vs the one in his square, so +7 vs AC12.

My turn again. If a goblin has the teacup I'll waste color spray or grease. If not, I'll hit something with my stick.
Kitty is in real danger of being knocked unconscious here. But it would take a crit and a pair of 6's for damage rolled to kill him outright.

On round 4, the blockade drops. By then we should have 3 warrors in a row, a mage who likes to conserve spells, and an angry kitty.
I'll open with Caltrops covering that door, plus a cloud somewhere useful (over the caltrops would do, so it sickens all goblins who enter)

And so on. I didn't even optimize for it really. Which means I could lose, but it's unlikely. All 8 side-door goblins racing to the front door (from outside the building) is about the worst case. Warriors reposition by the doors, and I may even use Grease. I'm sure it could be improved quite a bit.

[Deophaun]

They'll take the "holy" cup, aye, but what's stopping them from fibbing the other ones?
You are. But you only have to half-ass your defense. The important thing is to put pressure on them so they cannot take everything (remember it's a move action to manipulate an object). But you give them the opportunity to go up and nab one and let their greed and cowardice do the rest.

[Eldariel]

Say that PCs are hired out to get rid of this dragon menace that has been terrorizing a duchy.

Sure, the PCs can scry and magically scout the lair of the dragon, maybe prying eyes around the surrounding area and see what kind of monsters they might run into, but how would they know that there is a separate group of drow who have been itching to hunt the creature for themselves, bribed the duke's closest adviser to hire the PCs for such a deed, and will ambush the PCs the moment their fight with the dragon ends?

For information gathering, the best spells are Commune and Contact Other Plane (you can proof yourself against the check by 20 even for Greater Deities but much earlier for slightly lower probabilities). These allow you finding out anything with little more than 20 questions, and e.g. Wizard can have Imp/Quasit/whatever familiar to cast it for free (or indeed, Planar Bind something to do it for you). Generic questions like "which is the greatest threat I'll face that day" or "which is the second greatest threat..." etc. and "which spell is the optimal one to prepare in slot X to deal with that threat" are very solid for preparing for basically anything. Yeah, you get wrong info some time but you can use repeat questions to confirm and if you get conflicting answers, a third answer complete with probability distributions to very likely get correct information.

Or just Polymorph with Assume Supernatural Ability into an Elemental Weird [MMII] to get free action at will versions of all these divinations and find out whatever you will in one free action. And hell, Polymorph your familiar into a Thoon Elder Brain [MM5]/Spell-Weaver [MM2]/etc. and have it pick up Telepathy and Psychic Reformation (through Limited Wish) into Mindsight for it to act as a radar finding out whatever. And well, you can pick up Mindsight yourself and do this but it's generally inconvenient combat-wise to stay in such forms so generally outsourcing the 50 mile radar to your familiar is optimal.


Of course, you can also use Lesser Planar Binding on level 9 to get a Nightmare and have it Astral Projection you to the target to essentially remove all sorts of risk from your endeavour. If you fear the opposed Charisma-check, just debuff it (Enervation, Bestow Curse, etc.) and buff yourself (Eagle's Splendor, Circlet of Persuasion, etc.) before you make the check. Rerolls and such also work.

Just few things off the top of my head to fail-proof things as a caster. Of course, many of these come online on level 9 when spells experience a quantum leap, from encounter/tactical to strategic (Teleport, Contact Other Plane, Plane Shift [Cleric], etc.); before that they mostly solve encounters with massive power. And it's always possible to just prepare different spells; the 20 Int Specialist/Elf Generalist/Domain Wizard gets 4 spells on level 1 so you can get Grease/Color Spray/Wall of Smoke/Enlarge Person for example, and complement those with Daze from cantrip slots for 1-for-1 action trades. Thus you have a big contribution against any enemies weak against any particular save and then a generalist spell you can use if none of those happen to be appropriate.

Top it all off with Silent Image and Enlarge Person scrolls to extend your durability; you start with Scribe Scroll and they're just 12.5gp a piece. You don't need to single-handedly disable all the enemies but just do more than your share, disabling a bunch of them each fight. Or if you wanted to optimize for low levels, e.g. caster level boosts + Precocious Apprentice + Fiery Burst combined with Conjurer's Abrupt Jaunt gives you 5/day "Nope"-button while dishing out 3d6-4d6 Ref half AOEs all day as long as you feel like.


Level 2 adds stuff like Ray of Stupidity to one-shot Purple Worms and of course Glitterdust/Web/Pyrotechnics/Invisibility/etc. to change the game entirely.

[AvatarVecna]

The caster/non-caster disparity, just very generally speaking, tends to lie in three distinct balance problems from my perspective:

1) Bigger numbers

Most non-casters advance in such a way that a {whatever} 20 is going to generally play pretty similarly to a {whatever} 1, just with higher numbers. There are ways to make slightly more complicated tactics, but dual-wielding rogues and ubercharger barbarians are up and running at lvl 1, and mostly continue getting better at those things as they advance. Keeping those numbers remaining relevant across the board requires a great deal of investment on their part - skill points, feats, items, etc. With casters, most spells are designed to be relevant for their level, so even a pure blaster caster is going to be filling the same role as another non-caster DPR build. Or, if we're talking skillmonkey, you could have a caster that remains a relevant skillmonkey in their skill roles for the majority of their career with the basic skill ranks and then spell support. However, you may have heard the phrase "linear fighter, quadratic wizard", and this is part of what it ties into: a casters numbers can remain relevant without as much effort, but putting in the same effort on the caster you would on the noncaster can quickly cause numbers to reach absolutely ludicrous levels, easily outstripping their noncaster brethren.

2) Versatility

As is hinted at in the above, casters are playing a very different game at level 20 than they are at level 1, and this is because - unlike the vast majority of non-casters - casters don't just get higher numbers as they level, they get new things they can do. A Fighter 10 gains a feat, that maybe increases his HP, or his to-hit, or his damage, or his speed, or his skills, or his ability to trip/sunder/bull rush things, or maybe (heaven forbid) a very minor capability that he didn't already have, rather than just simply an increase to an existing capability. A sorcerer 10, meanwhile, can Teleport 1000 miles in six seconds, or create a 1-minute barrier that's immune to basically everything, or mind control somebody, or turn the Fighter into a newt (don't worry, he'll get better). Every time a spellcaster levels up, they gain new options. Every two levels, they gain a new tier of options. Now, this is largely only a problem if the casters think about such things; anybody who spends enough time looking at the game design ends up seeing that it's pretty clear that wizards are supposed to be blasting, clerics are supposed to be healing, and the rest of the spell list is intended as utility stuff that lets the party as a whole get around otherwise-insurmountable obstacles. The party will teleport to the door of the villains castle lair, rather than the throne room, for example, and then blast the door down and fight the army of minions in between them and the BBEG.

Heck, even if you're not using spells to bypass most of the journey for the sake of the destination, spell versatility is still super-useful. Even if you just stick to blasting as a wizard, you have the option to target AC, Fort saves, Ref saves, or even Will saves in a few cases. Meanwhile, the vast vast majority of noncasters will be dealing damage by attacking AC. Against a foe with bad AC and high saves, both the Fighter and the Wizard will do alright; against one with good AC and bad saves, the wizard is still doing okay while the fighter is struggling a bit. That versatility, to choose how to attack your enemy, gives you the option to attack them where they are weakest, rather than where they are strongest.

3) Flexibility

This is slightly different from Versatility, although I couldn't really think of a better word for this one. This problem, at its core, is that casters can change their available spells (whether by swapping out some for others, or by spending feats/money for access) far more easily than noncasters can. You can't really spend money to buy extra feats - well, you can, although the best way is paying a high-level caster to do it. :smalltongue:

Tome Of Battle sought to fix some of this by giving noncasters a flexible system of abilities similar in appearance to a spellcasting system (enough so that a number of people call it casting or sword magic or what have you, to the detriment of those that like the concept), and while it was a good step in the right direction...well, let's put it this way: there are 207 maneuvers in ToB, and there are 605 spells in the Player's Handbook. Oh yeah, and one of those numbers gets bigger once you start checking basically every other book in the game, and the other does not.

If you want an additional way to see just how stupid-borked spellcasting can be, take a Wizard 20, have them select all their 9th lvl spells completely randomly from the PHB, and look at how many of the infamously-overpowered spells they end up with. That basic wizard will have 8 9th lvl spells, selected randomly from 24. Of those 24, the ones that can really break the game in one way or another are Disjunction, Gate, Foresight, Shades, Astral Projection, Wail Of The Banshee, Shapechange, Time Stop, and Wish (8 total borked spells). Some quick calculations indicate that even choosing absolutely randomly, you'd have ~12.5% chance of 1, ~30% chance of 2, ~33% chance of 3, and ~17% chance of 4. That's 93% chance total of 1-4 borked spells even if you put literally no effort into choosing them yourself. The odds get worse if we add in more books, but this is core; other books might be allowed in a lot of games, but there's only one book that's gonna be allowed in every game, and it happens to be the one where the divide between casters and noncasters is at its worst.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

3) Flexibility

This is slightly different from Versatility, although I couldn't really think of a better word for this one.I believe you're looking for the terms "strategic flexibility" and "tactical flexibility."

[Nifft]

I believe you're looking for the terms "strategic flexibility" and "tactical flexibility."

Even within that, there's a distinction between "strategic" (9 hours of rest) vs. "strategic" (several weeks and a bag of gold in a big city).

[Troacctid]

A lot of the differences you're talking about exist in 5e too, and 5e doesn't have the same problems with caster supremacy. (Okay, maybe at really high levels, but even then it's not nearly as severe.) That tells us that the problem is not with the fundamental structure of casting but with the specific implementation.

In other words, it's not that spellcasters are inherently better than martial characters for structural reasons. It's that this edition of the game is full of underpowered martial classes (no scaling, dead levels everywhere, marginal bonuses balanced like they're game-breaking) and overpowered spellcasters (with overpowered spells), and has a bunch of rules that nerf martial characters (like not being able to move and full attack, or magic weapons being exorbitantly expensive) and buff spellcasters (like the overabundance of bonus spells that render daily limits toothless).

[Gnaeus]

The disparity isn't really going to be very pronounced—or even visible at all—if you're level 1. In fact, I'd argue that Fighters and Barbarians are better than Wizards at level 1. They're both pretty frontloaded.

Basically this. The problem with this example is that you are looking at muggles when they are at their comparative strongest (nb, disagree that fighters > wizards at 1, but they at least have combat parity). Try an example at level 10 where the fighters have a prayer and you will need to specifically write it for the casters to not curb stomp it. (Like, no Conjuration because it’s in a planar anomaly and it’s in an AMF, and the wizard should still do ok)

[Aetis]

I believe there is no need to go any further regarding the original topic. I've realized that I've modulated the game enough that further discussion will only be more of "casters can do this", "yes but not in my game", or in other words, unfruitful.

A shorter, and simpler question that arises though:

I assume you guys are all okay with the disparity? Surely, some of you have attempted to curve the disparity somewhat? I suppose implementing the Book of Nine Swords and banning out some of the more overpowered caster shenanigans would qualify, but surely nothing beats magic at the high levels. Do you play with mostly a caster party in that case? How would campaigns at those levels work, when the characters in play are so powerful? The only times I have played at those levels (20~epic) were as a player, and were very dysfunctional campaigns, both combat and plot-wise. (The DM was somewhat inept, though :smallannoyed:)

I always treated the high level tables as the abyssal zones of oceans, with immense pressure crushing all significant life forms. I am genuinely curious, and I'm expecting to receive all kinds of strange and variable answers.

[Lans]

The standard Goblin Warrior 1 is CR 1/3rd. 2 would be Encounter Level (EL) 1, 4 would be EL 3, 8 would be EL 5. 14 is skirting the edge of EL 7. The general game expectation is that you'll mostly be facing +/- 2-3 EL from your level, with a party in support (and running if you face things tougher than that).
.

Wouldn't it be 3 goblins be an el 1, 6 an EL3 and 12 a EL6

[Venger]

A shorter, and simpler question that arises though:

I assume you guys are all okay with the disparity? Surely, some of you have attempted to curve the disparity somewhat? I suppose implementing the Book of Nine Swords and banning out some of the more overpowered caster shenanigans would qualify, but surely nothing beats magic at the high levels. Do you play with mostly a caster party in that case? How would campaigns at those levels work, when the characters in play are so powerful? The only times I have played at those levels (20~epic) were as a player, and were very dysfunctional campaigns, both combat and plot-wise. (The DM was somewhat inept, though :smallannoyed:)

I always treated the high level tables as the abyssal zones of oceans, with immense pressure crushing all significant life forms. I am genuinely curious, and I'm expecting to receive all kinds of strange and variable answers.

It is a natural consequence of the game. When one caste of classes can hit things with a stick sometimes, and another can do literally anything, a disparity is unavoidable.

Using tob helps mundanes be more useful, but even an expertly played initiator isn't as strong as a t1 caster.

No, we will generally try to have everyone in the party play classes that are on the same tier or one tier away from each other. this way you don't have a wizard and fighter in the same party (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw) which will create problems even if your players are trying to work together

in tables where people don't do chargen together and show up with characters who are wide apart in tiers, the gentlemanly thing to do if you have a t1 caster and everyone else is fighters is to play god wizard and help everyone else out and not take the spotlight for yourself. this is the best way to play t1 casters anyway, so no one's getting short shrift.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A shorter, and simpler question that arises though:

I assume you guys are all okay with the disparity? Surely, some of you have attempted to curve the disparity somewhat? I suppose implementing the Book of Nine Swords and banning out some of the more overpowered caster shenanigans would qualify, but surely nothing beats magic at the high levels.

Mostly. 9ths give me pause but otherwise it's just a feature of the game. Our group is pretty "everything and the kitchen sink" as far as available material goes so the only thing that actually demands high-op casters to deal with is other high-op casters.


Do you play with mostly a caster party in that case? How would campaigns at those levels work, when the characters in play are so powerful? The only times I have played at those levels (20~epic) were as a player, and were very dysfunctional campaigns, both combat and plot-wise. (The DM was somewhat inept, though :smallannoyed:)

Nah. Like I said, the only thing that absolutely demands high-op casters to deal with is high-op casters. Most anything else just requires knowing what's out there as options and how the game world works.


I always treated the high level tables as the abyssal zones of oceans, with immense pressure crushing all significant life forms. I am genuinely curious, and I'm expecting to receive all kinds of strange and variable answers.

They can be that way but they don't have to be. Just a modicum of restraint can keep things from getting out of hand pretty easily. Ya gotta remember that 90% of what magic does is simply expedite and cheapen things that can be done without it. It's just a question of knowing how to do them.

[Troacctid]

I believe there is no need to go any further regarding the original topic. I've realized that I've modulated the game enough that further discussion will only be more of "casters can do this", "yes but not in my game", or in other words, unfruitful.

A shorter, and simpler question that arises though:

I assume you guys are all okay with the disparity? Surely, some of you have attempted to curve the disparity somewhat? I suppose implementing the Book of Nine Swords and banning out some of the more overpowered caster shenanigans would qualify, but surely nothing beats magic at the high levels. Do you play with mostly a caster party in that case? How would campaigns at those levels work, when the characters in play are so powerful? The only times I have played at those levels (20~epic) were as a player, and were very dysfunctional campaigns, both combat and plot-wise. (The DM was somewhat inept, though :smallannoyed:)

I always treated the high level tables as the abyssal zones of oceans, with immense pressure crushing all significant life forms. I am genuinely curious, and I'm expecting to receive all kinds of strange and variable answers.
My strategy is to generally not play campaigns at higher levels, BUT if the campaign DOES go to higher levels, cap the level of spells available. Spells and powers above 5th level simply aren't available. Casters continue to gain higher level slots, which can be used with metamagic, but they can't learn higher level spells.

I also have a bunch of other fiddly changes to help promote diversity and close the excitement gaps between different classes, like buffing Sorcerer-progression casters to remove the delay in their casting, giving half-casters recharge magic, giving everyone Able Learner and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats, making magic weapons and armor cheaper, removing the full attack requirement from Two-Weapon Fighting and similar abilities, linking related skills together so they share skill ranks (e.g. Spot/Listen, Climb/Jump/Swim, Hide/Move Silently), etc.

[Eldariel]

Basically this. The problem with this example is that you are looking at muggles when they are at their comparative strongest (nb, disagree that fighters > wizards at 1, but they at least have combat parity). Try an example at level 10 where the fighters have a prayer and you will need to specifically write it for the casters to not curb stomp it. (Like, no Conjuration because it’s in a planar anomaly and it’s in an AMF, and the wizard should still do ok)

Far as level 1 goes, the big difference is scaleability. Fighter is a sac of numbers so he can't really beat things with better numbers. Ranged combat is their only real option that avoids a direct numeric comparison but they have little meaningful advantage over other classes there on low levels. Combat maneuvers and autoattacks are broadly weak agaibst the same opponents. Thus Fighter 1 vs. MM Ogre is going to end up in favour of the Ogre in almost all circumstances, and Fighter 1 is of little use in a level 5 party simply because he's just numbers and his numbers lag behind.

Meanwhile, casters can approach defeating an enemy laterally. Wizard 1 has not only attacks but also spells and thus they can hit enemy weak points. That Ogre? Probably going down to Color Spray, Sleep or heavily inconvenienced by Grease. Enemy Sorc? Mayhap Wall of Smoke. Even in a level 5 party, those spells are a worthy contribution, as are e.g. Silent Image or Enlarge Person. Casters in general can contribute above their nominal paygrade. Martials are, however, stuck comparing numbers.


Of course, there's also the oft-overlooked fact of cantrips, particularly Detect Magic and Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344300-Official-list-of-expanded-uses-for-Prestidigitation) (WotC Archive for the dead links in the thread (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707)), doing a lot of what is needed to interact with the world and that martials simply can't replicate. Detect Magic is just about the only way to become aware of the presence of invisible magical (potential) assailants before the fact on level 1, and it's in general a means to interact with magic. Meanwhile, Prestidigitation can do pretty much anything. It's not called "Least Wish" without a reason. Prestidigitation alone is enough to make arcane casters ridiculous out of combat on level 1 already. Charm Person, Detect Magic, etc. complement this of course.

[Pleh]

Important to remember that disparity isn't only a thing at end game levels (15+).

It starts affecting the game visibly past level 5, so you have countless sessions without any 9th spells or epic nonsense to get through that will mess with your games.

The good thing is that disparity at this mid level can be easy to control: longer adventuring days. From levels 5 to 12, casters still have SOME concern for their daily limit, so just refusing to let the party rest until they consistently are depleting their resources is a good way to balance. Sure, color spray can trivialize a fight, but only a few per day. Make them fight a few more encounters past that and you'll just about guaranter the martials will have to assist them.

Once the players start to expect this, they'll start playing resource management, making tactical decisions about when to nuke the problem with a spell and when to wear it down with the beating stick.

[Eldariel]

As for the high level campaigns, I simply ask that everyone agree on the level of power they want to play and then do so. Everyone playing T0.5+, T1-2, T3-4 or T5-6 works just fine, and the campaign can then be calibrated with that in mind. Contrary to the sentiment you experience in these threads, it's not hard to challenge full casters. It simply vastly reduces the kinds of challenges that are truly challenging. Thus the challenges come from the usual litany of Outsiders, Dragons, Aberrations, Undead & spellcasters of other races (particularly Humanoid).

Magic must defeat magic and anything with good magic (or equivalent; psionics or even binding; well, shadowcasting, incarnum, invocations & truenaming don't really match up aside from Truename Gate but that's just because the systems aren't broad enough, and martials don't match up under any circumstances due to their inherent limitations) can be scaled to be in the same ballpark; the game is well setup to do this already if you don't shy away from monsters using their treasure intelligently, picking feats intelligently, picking spells intelligently, etc. (which they should be doing anyways) and, picking their fights intelligently and generally, being game-world entities rather than random challenges falling from heavens. When all the other powers are actively plotting with or against the party and taking active initiative, the game actually works and feels like a living game world. That also pushes everything into a faster time window and removes the infinite preparation option outside some very specific abuses, lest the party give up an objective after an objective.

It's not the only way to play but I find it's by far the most rewarding (though also the most involved), particularly on the high levels. It does mean all the players should be rather well-versed in the system though as there are lots of options and encounters and downtime alike get really complicated. An inexperienced player can grind the game down to a screeching halt all the while feeling wronged and underpowered and so on (even vindictive).

[Gnaeus]

A shorter, and simpler question that arises though:

I assume you guys are all okay with the disparity? Surely, some of you have attempted to curve the disparity somewhat? I suppose implementing the Book of Nine Swords and banning out some of the more overpowered caster shenanigans would qualify, but surely nothing beats magic at the high levels. Do you play with mostly a caster party in that case? How would campaigns at those levels work, when the characters in play are so powerful? The only times I have played at those levels (20~epic) were as a player, and were very dysfunctional campaigns, both combat and plot-wise.

1. We weed a lot of it in play by gentlemen agreement. We know about adventuring as an astral projection from a demiplane, we just don’t do it. My Sorcerer has planar binding, but only uses it rarely, by party consent, and I hand out creature control to the team muggles. A lot of the worst problems we just don’t use.

2. Some problems are only problems if someone says they are. If only the Sorcerer can teleport, and the Barbarian says “take us to Minas Tirith” and the Sorcerer says ok. And no one is butthurt about it, it isn’t a disparity that causes problems.

3. We tend to ban T1s. We tend to either boost or just not play T5s. That puts everything in a 3 Tier range which isn’t too bad. One game gestalts low tiers.

[Morty]

The game is fundamentally stacked against non-magic. Intentionally or otherwise. It gets worse the higher up you get in levels, but it's always there. The relationship between magical and non-magical efforts and dangers grows more and more one-sided, in that you can deal with "mundane" threats and obsacles using magic in a dozen different ways, but to deal with magic you usually need more magic or the right magic.

Even without bringing magic into the equation, sub-systems for non-magical efforts just work poorly. Attacks, skills, AC, hit points versus healing, et cetera. Part of why 5e has a better sense of balance is because the game's basic tools don't actively trip up the non-magical characters quite as often. Even if plenty of problems remain and the classes themselves have the same design errors.

Some of it is no doubt intentional, since superiority of magic and the power fantasy of an awesome magic-user (usually a wizard) smiting fools and solving problems as their sidekicks gape are baked into D&D's DNA.

[Aetis]

If I'm allowed to interject, I always thought that solving the problem with a "gentlemen's agreement" is a bit silly. It works in practical terms, sure, but these NPCs that live in your fantasy world literally have to find these high powered loopholes and abuse them as best they can if they are to survive. These overpowered options exist, and someone is going to use them eventually, even if the PCs agree not to use them. It's too much verisimilitude for me. Why not just ban the spells/game material and be done with them?

[Aetis]

My strategy is to generally not play campaigns at higher levels, BUT if the campaign DOES go to higher levels, cap the level of spells available. Spells and powers above 5th level simply aren't available. Casters continue to gain higher level slots, which can be used with metamagic, but they can't learn higher level spells.

I also have a bunch of other fiddly changes to help promote diversity and close the excitement gaps between different classes, like buffing Sorcerer-progression casters to remove the delay in their casting, giving half-casters recharge magic, giving everyone Able Learner and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats, making magic weapons and armor cheaper, removing the full attack requirement from Two-Weapon Fighting and similar abilities, linking related skills together so they share skill ranks (e.g. Spot/Listen, Climb/Jump/Swim, Hide/Move Silently), etc.

We have a similar take on things, although we prioritize different things, interestingly enough.



The good thing is that disparity at this mid level can be easy to control: longer adventuring days. From levels 5 to 12, casters still have SOME concern for their daily limit, so just refusing to let the party rest until they consistently are depleting their resources is a good way to balance. Sure, color spray can trivialize a fight, but only a few per day. Make them fight a few more encounters past that and you'll just about guaranter the martials will have to assist them.

Once the players start to expect this, they'll start playing resource management, making tactical decisions about when to nuke the problem with a spell and when to wear it down with the beating stick.

Yeah, I also employ long adventuring days to combat the magic problem. If there are 15 encounters a day, I find that casters tend to conserve their spells bit more and have to spread out their effectiveness.

[GrayDeath]

I believe there is no need to go any further regarding the original topic. I've realized that I've modulated the game enough that further discussion will only be more of "casters can do this", "yes but not in my game", or in other words, unfruitful.

A shorter, and simpler question that arises though:

I assume you guys are all okay with the disparity? Surely, some of you have attempted to curve the disparity somewhat? I suppose implementing the Book of Nine Swords and banning out some of the more overpowered caster shenanigans would qualify, but surely nothing beats magic at the high levels. Do you play with mostly a caster party in that case? How would campaigns at those levels work, when the characters in play are so powerful? The only times I have played at those levels (20~epic) were as a player, and were very dysfunctional campaigns, both combat and plot-wise. (The DM was somewhat inept, though :smallannoyed:)

I always treated the high level tables as the abyssal zones of oceans, with immense pressure crushing all significant life forms. I am genuinely curious, and I'm expecting to receive all kinds of strange and variable answers.


Depends heavily on the type of campaign.

Usually though, meaning in a General Campaign XY" way, we ban T1 classes, and give T 3 and lower some goodies, like free templates, to reduce the chasms width.

We dont forbid fullc asters unless its a themed campaign though, and if they dominate too strongly due to that, its just how it is.
Since we always tell less experienced players beforehand, and many mundane (or at least less caster"^^) Concepts do fill their niche well enough, its mostly not a problem.

Exceptions are of course campaigns with full practical OP allowed from the get go. There you dont want to play anything ... less castery than absolutely necessary ^^


And,a s has been said by others, the point of no mreturn disparitywise is, depending on the different classes somewhere midlevel or at Level 14ish at the altest, so it does not need to come up at all (a party with 2 T 2, a T3 and a well built T4 is quite balanced at Level 3ish for example).

[Kelb_Panthera]

If I'm allowed to interject, I always thought that solving the problem with a "gentlemen's agreement" is a bit silly. It works in practical terms, sure, but these NPCs that live in your fantasy world literally have to find these high powered loopholes and abuse them as best they can if they are to survive. These overpowered options exist, and someone is going to use them eventually, even if the PCs agree not to use them. It's too much verisimilitude for me. Why not just ban the spells/game material and be done with them?

The loopholes in the rules aren't at all intuitive from our position of relative omniscience. It's not at all implausible that no particular character or even cabal of characters within the game world has all the components of any given combo on their radar, much less at their disposal, before you even consider actually putting the pieces together.

Obvious, easy example; specialist wizard that bans conjuration. We, as players, know that this is a bad idea if your goal is ultimate powerTM but that's because we know all of the things of which conjuration is capable. We know that it can create healing effects, teleport creatures through space, and even punch holes in the fabric of reality to realms beyond the material.

Tim the neophyte wizard-in-training knows none of this with certainty and has no idea if -he- will be able to learn any of it if it -can- be done (remember that the automatic spells on level up are an abstraction of the normal learning process auto-succeeding for game purposes). As was pointed out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22987925&postcount=19), spellcasters capable of even mid-level spells are quite rare. Tim has likely never seen anyone or anything teleported unless he's lived a fairly eventful life. Maybe he has an ethical problem with snatching creatures from elsewhere to do his bidding (summon monster). Maybe, like Scotty from star trek, he finds the theoretical process of teleportation disturbing. From his perspective, forgoing conjuration as a school of magic could make perfect sense.

Between the above factors, the oft-glossed-over barriers to entry for PrCs, and the sheer amount of luck involved in reaching the highest levels of power; getting all the pieces of any combo together is actually incredibly unlikely. It's not unreasonable for a PC to be the first to do so at all and its replicability from within the game world can be staggeringly difficult.

TL;DR: the high-op loops are only necessary in a very competitive game environment and almost not at all within the world in which the game takes place.

[Pleh]

The loopholes in the rules aren't at all intuitive from our position of relative omniscience. It's not at all implausible that no particular character or even cabal of characters within the game world has all the components of any given combo on their radar, much less at their disposal, before you even consider actually putting the pieces together.

Obvious, easy example; specialist wizard that bans conjuration. We, as players, know that this is a bad idea if your goal is ultimate powerTM but that's because we know all of the things of which conjuration is capable. We know that it can create healing effects, teleport creatures through space, and even punch holes in the fabric of reality to realms beyond the material.

Tim the neophyte wizard-in-training knows none of this with certainty and has no idea if -he- will be able to learn any of it if it -can- be done (remember that the automatic spells on level up are an abstraction of the normal learning process auto-succeeding for game purposes). As was pointed out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22987925&postcount=19), spellcasters capable of even mid-level spells are quite rare. Tim has likely never seen anyone or anything teleported unless he's lived a fairly eventful life. Maybe he has an ethical problem with snatching creatures from elsewhere to do his bidding (summon monster). Maybe, like Scotty from star trek, he finds the theoretical process of teleportation disturbing. From his perspective, forgoing conjuration as a school of magic could make perfect sense.

Between the above factors, the oft-glossed-over barriers to entry for PrCs, and the sheer amount of luck involved in reaching the highest levels of power; getting all the pieces of any combo together is actually incredibly unlikely. It's not unreasonable for a PC to be the first to do so at all and its replicability from within the game world can be staggeringly difficult.

TL;DR: the high-op loops are only necessary in a very competitive game environment and almost not at all within the world the game takes place in.

^this.

Truly optimized NPCs are unique creatures in standard fantasy settings and high creatures are truly legendary. If a legendary creature merely raises the bar for the rest of the world and then everyone important rises to meet it, then it isn't really legendary anymore, just historical. Legendary figures have something special and unique that makes them worth telling stories about (cause no one is likely to personally encounter them directly).

Basically, the problem of metagame escalation is a problem unique to Tippyverse settings (early Tippyverse, Tippyverse, post-Tippyverse apocalypse).

[Karl Aegis]

The game expects certain Tier 1 and Tier 2 abilities to be available at certain levels. The premier example is the Banshee and the Bodak versus Death Ward. You're expected to have Death Ward or a similar effect by level 7 or 8. 9 at the latest. If you do have Death Ward the fight is non-threatening. If you don't you risk a total party kill. It's just the way the game was designed.

[Gnaeus]

^this.

Truly optimized NPCs are unique creatures in standard fantasy settings and high creatures are truly legendary. If a legendary creature merely raises the bar for the rest of the world and then everyone important rises to meet it, then it isn't really legendary anymore, just historical. Legendary figures have something special and unique that makes them worth telling stories about (cause no one is likely to personally encounter them directly).

Basically, the problem of metagame escalation is a problem unique to Tippyverse settings (early Tippyverse, Tippyverse, post-Tippyverse apocalypse).

And of course, it being our game, we can introduce non RAW repercussions as we need to to match our balance point. If we need to say that monsters roam the deep astral looking for astral cords so they can track them back to your demiplane and eat your defenseless body, that’s what’s gonna happen! What if planar binding had a .01% catastrophic failure rate? It’s not going to stop being a good spell, but you aren’t going to bind demons to open your jelly jar, just use it when you really need it. Almost every important location in one game is mundanely or magically blocked from teleports and scrying. It’s really, really easy to explain why certain effects don’t happen when you literally control the fabric of the universe.

That doesn’t mean it isn’t broken. It just means we fixed it to our group’s satisfaction.

[Nifft]

If I'm allowed to interject, I always thought that solving the problem with a "gentlemen's agreement" is a bit silly. It works in practical terms, sure, but these NPCs that live in your fantasy world literally have to find these high powered loopholes and abuse them as best they can if they are to survive. These overpowered options exist, and someone is going to use them eventually, even if the PCs agree not to use them. It's too much verisimilitude for me. Why not just ban the spells/game material and be done with them?

Ultimately the game is always going to be a social contract between the players, so adding in an agreement about power-level isn't any more or less silly than adding in an agreement that you read the correct number off the dice when you roll them rather than just making up the number you want.

Seriously, what prevents the players from doing that?

It's exactly the same thing that prevents having a disruptive power-level difference between characters: the fact that players aren't all anti-social jerks.


Would your character choose to win a fight at the expense of your real-life friendship with another player? Probably not. Extend that principle down a bit, to the non-friendship-ending part of the spectrum, and ask if your character would choose to exploit a loophole if doing so would make your real-life friend have less fun.

IMHO the best kind of optimization is optimizing the game to maximize the players' fun.

[Doctor Awkward]

An aside, what would an actual optimized caster look like? One that is expecting combat, that is. I understand that the builds vary a lot depending on what books/material are legal, but I'm curious to see some of these caster builds that are considered "optimized" in the forum. (assume a sane and practical DM, obviously)

Behold. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18985343&postcount=16)

Although not much of that assumes a "sane, practical DM".
It assumes a wholly indifferent DM who cares only that the Rules As Written are followed.

[Nifft]

Behold. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18985343&postcount=16)

Although not much of that assumes a "sane, practical DM".
It assumes a wholly indifferent DM who cares only that the Rules As Written are followed.

That assumes a bunch of terribly shaky things, like relying on the idea that every god you contact would know your future. But there are things the gods don't know, and this fact is mentioned in the spell itself. You can't get a true answer for a topic the god doesn't know -- you'll get a random answer, per RAW.

It's about as RAW as using contact other plane to ask a logical paradox like: "This statement is false. Was the preceding statement true or false?"

The answer will be a one-word insult. As long as the insult is true and one word long, RAW has been followed.

[Doctor Awkward]

That assumes a bunch of terribly shaky things, like relying on the idea that every god you contact would know your future. But there are things the gods don't know, and this fact is mentioned in the spell itself. You can't get a true answer for a topic the god doesn't know -- you'll get a random answer, per RAW.

It's about as RAW as using contact other plane to ask a logical paradox like: "This statement is false. Was the preceding statement true or false?"

The answer will be a one-word insult. As long as the insult is true and one word long, RAW has been followed.

Contact other Plane is a bonus in that setup, and not really necessary.

The wizard in question has more than enough spell slots to prepare catch-all counters for every conceivable threat.

In the event of a needed silver bullet for an inconceivable threat, he can simply emulate the necessary spell via Wish.

[Nifft]

The wizard in question has more than enough spell slots to prepare catch-all counters for every conceivable threat.

That argument is valid.

But the linked post seemed to devote a lot of lines to non-practical optimization of contact other plane, and I want to point out that non-practical optimization has a chance to fail in practice.

[Kelb_Panthera]

CoP has always been a red herring for optimization. Without even getting into the logic paradox it creates when used that way, there's the simple practical matter that while greater deities (and nothing else) know the future out to about a season (and only as regards their portfolio, at that) the DM almost certainly does not.

It's a complete waste of time to talk about CoP in a discussion about actual play and always was.

[Doctor Awkward]

CoP has always been a red herring for optimization. Without even getting into the logic paradox it creates when used that way, there's the simple practical matter that while greater deities (and nothing else) know the future out to about a season (and only as regards their portfolio, at that) the DM almost certainly does not.

It's a complete waste of time to talk about CoP in a discussion about actual play and always was.

By virtue of being a spell that exists, it is a tool that a spellcaster can use to help ensure their success and survival.

There are a hundred thousand potential reasons for the spell to fail in-game. But seeing as the risk for using it is zero, the opportunity cost is negligible, and considering the fact that it could result in useful information, there is no reason at all to not use it, other than not liking it personally or knowing ahead of time that the DM will fiat it into uselessness.

[Nifft]

By virtue of being a spell that exists, it is a tool that a spellcaster can use to help ensure their success and survival.

There are a hundred thousand potential reasons for the spell to fail in-game. But seeing as the risk for using it is zero, the opportunity cost is negligible, and considering the fact that it could result in useful information, there is no reason at all to not use it, other than not liking it personally or knowing ahead of time that the DM will fiat it into uselessness.

It's quite possible for contact other plane to be a useful spell without getting unknowable future plot-spoilers out of it.

I'd suggest that a DM might allow it to uncover secrets of the past, for example, since those would tend to be events that are not in the unknowable future -- time loops exempted for obvious reasons.

[Eldariel]

CoP has always been a red herring for optimization. Without even getting into the logic paradox it creates when used that way, there's the simple practical matter that while greater deities (and nothing else) know the future out to about a season (and only as regards their portfolio, at that) the DM almost certainly does not.

It's a complete waste of time to talk about CoP in a discussion about actual play and always was.

Well, CoP in its full capacity, maybe, but you can certainly make good use of it in a way that it works. It's great for finding out what kinds of threats you might be facing, the location of any given object, in general the solution to anything you need to solve in-game. I've used Commune and COP alike plenty in-game to do everything from triangulating objects to finding out how to destroy a certain artifact (a custom artifact named Nemesis) - if you can word your questions right (and anyone who's played "20 questions" has plenty of practice), both spells are tremendously powerful. Also, future can always be backported essentially letting the decision be made after the fact with "future knowledge" in game; that is, altering past decisions with the future knowledge and altering the game to have went that way instead. But yes, knowing everything is very hard to reasonably implement in the game.

[Kelb_Panthera]

By virtue of being a spell that exists, it is a tool that a spellcaster can use to help ensure their success and survival.

There are a hundred thousand potential reasons for the spell to fail in-game. But seeing as the risk for using it is zero, the opportunity cost is negligible, and considering the fact that it could result in useful information, there is no reason at all to not use it, other than not liking it personally or knowing ahead of time that the DM will fiat it into uselessness.

Nifft pretty much nailed it.


It's quite possible for contact other plane to be a useful spell without getting unknowable future plot-spoilers out of it.

I'd suggest that a DM might allow it to uncover secrets of the past, for example, since those would tend to be events that are not in the unknowable future -- time loops exempted for obvious reasons.

It's a solid spell for what it is but its utility and potential get -way- overblown in optimization discussions.

[tiercel]

If I'm allowed to interject, I always thought that solving the problem with a "gentlemen's agreement" is a bit silly. It works in practical terms, sure, but these NPCs that live in your fantasy world literally have to find these high powered loopholes and abuse them as best they can if they are to survive. These overpowered options exist, and someone is going to use them eventually, even if the PCs agree not to use them. It's too much verisimilitude for me. Why not just ban the spells/game material and be done with them?

There have been several good responses to this and I just wanted to add that, at least in my experience, “gentlemen’s agreements” aren’t just between players (for something like balance among PCs) but also specifically two-way agreements between players and the DM.

For example, if one of the players is thinking of exploiting planar binding line of spells for arbitrary “free” resources, as a DM I ask that player and the rest of the group “is this how you want the world to work?” If they do, then NPCs throughout my campaign’s history — including, notably, current BBEGs — will have already performed some version of said exploit, unless there is a compelling in-game explanation for why the PCs are the first people in the history of the campaign to be able to do so.

In this sense the “gentleman’s agreement” is a little stronger than the name might imply — it really is a ban, only collaboratively arrived at (rather than the DM’s or any one person’s fiat).

——

As for the discussion of “divinations win everything” more generally, I’d make a couple of points:

1) Most campaigns that I’ve actually been in have been effectively ~E12 campaigns (i.e. rarely exceeding 12th level); at these levels, as others have pointed out, primary casters don’t necessarily have arbitrary numbers of spells per day and have to resource-manage their most powerful options, if some combination of story constraints and don’t-be-a-jerk constraints are preventing actual Fifteen Minute Adventuring Days.

This doesn’t obviate the problem of what happens at higher levels of course, just merely points out that high level play not only doesn’t always happen, but also fairly often doesn’t.

2) See above, regarding “gentleman’s agreements.” If divinations work that well for PCs, then the BBEG is likely to be asking on a regular basis the in-game equivalent of “are there currently any individuals who would likely oppose my plans if they knew of them and who are of at least (5-7 levels below me) in power?”, and if the answer is “yes,” followup divinations and then (whenever feasible) curb-stomping.

In fact, because BBEGs tend to be active while “heroes” tend to be reactive, divinations are just that much more effective in their hands in general.

[Jack_Simth]

Maybe, like Scotty from star trek, he finds the theoretical process of teleportation disturbing.Just FYI: That was Bones, not Scotty.


Behold. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18985343&postcount=16)

Although not much of that assumes a "sane, practical DM".
It assumes a wholly indifferent DM who cares only that the Rules As Written are followed.

Actually, there's plenty of ways to get through that.

Wish's Transport Traveler's Clause can breach the lair, as Forbiddance is a local condition.
Forbiddance permits SR, which makes it a valid choice for Greater Spell Immunity, permitting someone with both that and Plane Shift to breach the lair.
If he happens to be in an area that doesn't permit dimensional travel for any reason when he fails a save vs. Flesh To Stone (or any similar containment spell), his contingency, clone, and Astral Projection spells do not help one whit.

There's also easy trip-ups. Deities on Contact Other Plane explicitly don't always know the answer, and per the die roll will sometimes maliciously lie (and there's notes in other divinations that repeated inquiries on the same subject use the same roll). Also, other folks can be doing the same thing, and if you ignore the first sentence of this paragraph, then you have an unresolvable conflict on any question about the future when someone else makes similar inquiries.

[Doctor Awkward]

Actually, there's plenty of ways to get through that.

Wish's Transport Traveler's Clause can breach the lair, as Forbiddance is a local condition.
That depends entirely on whether or not you consider spell effects a "local condition" for the purposes of the definition of the word "local".

As the Wish spell does not contain any sort of clarifying clause which states something along the lines of, "even bypassing various magical effects that would otherwise inhibit such movement", that you would normally expect to be present in an exception-based ruleset, it's entirely up to the DM if Wish would work in that fashion.

Otherwise know as, "DM fiat".


Forbiddance permits SR, which makes it a valid choice for Greater Spell Immunity, permitting someone with both that and Plane Shift to breach the lair.

The damage portion of Forbiddance permits SR.
The part that seals the area against all dimensional travel does not. That effect is completely separate from the rest of the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance):


The Spell Resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place.


If he happens to be in an area that doesn't permit dimensional travel for any reason when he fails a save vs. Flesh To Stone (or any similar containment spell), his contingency, clone, and Astral Projection spells do not help one whit.
Then he doesn't go into those areas. :P
Again, bear in mind the original purpose of the post was to highlight a wizard that could not be killed barring specific intervention on behalf of the DM.


There's also easy trip-ups. Deities on Contact Other Plane explicitly don't always know the answer, and per the die roll will sometimes maliciously lie (and there's notes in other divinations that repeated inquiries on the same subject use the same roll). Also, other folks can be doing the same thing, and if you ignore the first sentence of this paragraph, then you have an unresolvable conflict on any question about the future when someone else makes similar inquiries.

Contact Other Plane is for funsies. It is not necessary for his survival. Feel free to pretend that entire section does not exist if it offends your sensibilities so.

[Nifft]

Actually, there's plenty of ways to get through that.

Wish's Transport Traveler's Clause can breach the lair, as Forbiddance is a local condition.

The way I read it, "local conditions" are the conditions local to the character casting wish.

So you can always use wish to leave from any location, no matter what the local conditions might be.

You can't always use wish to enter any location.

[Anthrowhale]

Behold. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18985343&postcount=16)

Although not much of that assumes a "sane, practical DM".
It assumes a wholly indifferent DM who cares only that the Rules As Written are followed.

There are good ideas in this build, but:

A difficulty with the Astral Projection plan is that Astral Projection leavers your body on the <i>material</i> plane. I realize many people interpret it otherwise (and that may be RAI), but if you want to argue for RAW, I think you must obey all the RAW.

It looks like the build is potentially vulnerable to walking into a stealthy beholder's open central eye followed by a grapple from a large/strong creature. It's a tough combo---most things are vulnerable to this.

[Doctor Awkward]

There are good ideas in this build, but:

A difficulty with the Astral Projection plan is that Astral Projection leavers your body on the <i>material</i> plane. I realize many people interpret it otherwise (and that may be RAI), but if you want to argue for RAW, I think you must obey all the RAW.

Not true.
The Manual of the Planes discusses how spells that access the transitive planes, such as the Astral Plane, also function perfectly fine on other planes.

Beginning on pg. 45, under "Moving Among Transitive Planes":

Characters generally must use spells or spell-like abilities to access a Transitive Plane. ... the astral projection spell takes you to the Astral Plane ... Such spells should function in any location coexistent with or coterminous to the plane.

The various examples on the next page reinforce the idea that "Material Plane" is just a placeholder, and that your body will be left behind on whatever plane you cast the spell from.

Otherwise, no creature could ever astral project to the Material Plane, which happens all the time in many different adventures.


It looks like the build is potentially vulnerable to walking into a stealthy beholder's open central eye followed by a grapple from a large/strong creature. It's a tough combo---most things are vulnerable to this.

With a familiar with Mindsight and instant telepathic communication plus empathy, he won't be accidentally walking anywhere that another creature with an Intelligence score might be and not know about it.

[Elkad]

With a familiar with Mindsight and instant telepathic communication plus empathy, he won't be accidentally walking anywhere that another creature with an Intelligence score might be and not know about it.

Mindblank. Done.

[Doctor Awkward]

Mindblank. Done.

Telepathy is not mind-affecting. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#telepathy)

Mindsight does not detect emotions or thoughts. Merely the presence of another mind. That puts it outside the purview of the Mind Blank spell.

[Anthrowhale]

The various examples on the next page reinforce the idea that "Material Plane" is just a placeholder, and that your body will be left behind on whatever plane you cast the spell from.

Otherwise, no creature could ever astral project to the Material Plane, which happens all the time in many different adventures.

I don't have MoP handy at the moment, but nothing above sounds like it definitively negates the wording of the spell.


With a familiar with Mindsight and instant telepathic communication plus empathy, he won't be accidentally walking anywhere that another creature with an Intelligence score might be and not know about it.
The range of the central eye can exceed 100'. And yes, you can have a familiar shapechanged into formian queen form, but then travel becomes awkward.

[Jack_Simth]

That depends entirely on whether or not you consider spell effects a "local condition" for the purposes of the definition of the word "local".

As the Wish spell does not contain any sort of clarifying clause which states something along the lines of, "even bypassing various magical effects that would otherwise inhibit such movement", that you would normally expect to be present in an exception-based ruleset, it's entirely up to the DM if Wish would work in that fashion.

Otherwise know as, "DM fiat".

You're the first person I've run across to NOT consider magical effects part of local conditions, especially as the "local conditions" clause is NOT included in any other transport spell (well, other than that one contingent teleport spell...). So yes, DM fiat protects him just fine.




The damage portion of Forbiddance permits SR.
The part that seals the area against all dimensional travel does not. That effect is completely separate from the rest of the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#spellResistance):
In the Forbiddance spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm), the Spell resistance line is simply "yes". Where are you getting that it stops one piece of the spell but not another?


Then he doesn't go into those areas. :P

They can be built on the spot around him. Dimension Lock, for instance, or the Forbiddance spell that he himself uses.

Again, bear in mind the original purpose of the post was to highlight a wizard that could not be killed barring specific intervention on behalf of the DM.
That build isn't one. Well, unless the DM fiats it so, which yours seems to.

Contact Other Plane is for funsies. It is not necessary for his survival. Feel free to pretend that entire section does not exist if it offends your sensibilities so.
It's not that it offends my sensibilities; it's that you (and many others...) appear to give the spell more power than it actually has. It's not a reliable spell.

The way I read it, "local conditions" are the conditions local to the character casting wish.

So you can always use wish to leave from any location, no matter what the local conditions might be.

You can't always use wish to enter any location.

And you're now the second person I've run across who seems to put such limits on that aspect.



It looks like the build is potentially vulnerable to walking into a stealthy beholder's open central eye followed by a grapple from a large/strong creature. It's a tough combo---most things are vulnerable to this.
He's actually not vulnerable to that - he's using Astral Projection, which means his form (an aspect of the Astral Projection spell, which has an ongoing duration) is suppressed within the field. There's nothing to grapple. Although that does give an amusing way to permanently get rid of him - get an AMF on him somehow (suppressing both him and his contingency), and maintain it at that spot until such time as an Antimagic Room can be built around the spot he used to be in (see Stronghold Builder's Guide). He's gone until someone destroys the room.

Another attack angles... the right build could Demand that the simulacrum turn off the defenses.

[Goaty14]

He's actually not vulnerable to that - he's using Astral Projection, which means his form (an aspect of the Astral Projection spell, which has an ongoing duration) is suppressed within the field. There's nothing to grapple. Although that does give an amusing way to permanently get rid of him - get an AMF on him somehow (suppressing both him and his contingency), and maintain it at that spot until such time as an Antimagic Room can be built around the spot he used to be in (see Stronghold Builder's Guide). He's gone until someone destroys the room.

I'm not an expert on astral projection, but couldn't he dismiss the effect? I mean, the text says he can just will it to end, and BAM! his supposed opponents will be building an antimagic room all for nothing (since the AMF never goes out, they'll never know the difference from "suppressed" and "not there"). Worst case scenario, his titan simulacrum or clone scrys him to figure out something is up and then casts dispel magic onto the physical being, but that might be making too many assumptions.


Another attack angles... the right build could Demand that the simulacrum turn off the defenses.

I would suggest that the demiplanar traits would get an incredibly high chance of blocking a sending spell, but then that raises the question on how the wizard gets back in.
...
Probably something that involves Owl's Wisdom, Vow of Nonviolence, and a scroll.

[Doctor Awkward]

I don't have MoP handy at the moment, but nothing above sounds like it definitively negates the wording of the spell.

"Such spells should function in any location coexistent with or coterminous to the plane" is not good enough for you?

Okay then, try these:

From the Ethereal Plane to the Astral Plane:... If you're using an astral
projection spell, your physical body remains in the Ethereal
Plane, and the astral form moves to the Astral Plane.
...
From the Plane of Shadow to the Astral Plane: From
the Plane of Shadow, you can use the astral projection spell,
leaving your body behind on that plane...
How does any of that function at all if the astral projection spell can only be cast from the Material Plane?


The range of the central eye can exceed 100'. And yes, you can have a familiar shapechanged into formian queen form, but then travel becomes awkward.
...It doesn't have to stay as a formian queen. It can change to something else every round as a free action.



In the Forbiddance spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm), the Spell resistance line is simply "yes". Where are you getting that it stops one piece of the spell but not another?
From the definition of the Spell Resistance section of spell descriptions. Which I also linked to.
...And quoted.
Did you even read it?
If spell resistance applied freely to the whole spell, then why does it specifically call out, twice, instances where spell resistance applied in the description?


They can be built on the spot around him. Dimension Lock, for instance, or the Forbiddance spell that he himself uses.
...What?


That build isn't one. Well, unless the DM fiats it so, which yours seems to.
I guess it wouldn't seem like one, if you don't understand the rules of the game, or how certain spells work, or what "DM fiat" actually is.


It's not that it offends my sensibilities; it's that you (and many others...) appear to give the spell more power than it actually has. It's not a reliable spell.
It's only unreliable if you lack imagination.
Or have never played 20 Questions as a child.
The likelihood that you will get useful information out of that spell is fairly high. And if you get information that is suspect, there is nothing stopping you from casting it again and asking the same questions to someone else and seeing if the answer changes.
...Unless the DM wills it.

And, again, he does not at all need to be aware of any specific threats ahead of time in order to stop them.


He's actually not vulnerable to that - he's using Astral Projection, which means his form (an aspect of the Astral Projection spell, which has an ongoing duration) is suppressed within the field. There's nothing to grapple. Although that does give an amusing way to permanently get rid of him - get an AMF on him somehow (suppressing both him and his contingency), and maintain it at that spot until such time as an Antimagic Room can be built around the spot he used to be in (see Stronghold Builder's Guide). He's gone until someone destroys the room.

For one thing, he doesn't have to travel as an astral projection at all times.
For another thing, there are no rules on the specific interactions between Astral Projection and Antimagic Field. The magic that making Astral Projection happen is cast upon the physical body, which is on an entirely different plane of existence from the one he enters with his physical copy, and where this hypothetical AMF is being cast.
It is entirely up to the DM to decide what happens, whether the traveler simply cannot appear in, or enter, an AMF, if the traveler is shunted back to his body upon being subject to one, or if his new physical body simply winks out and he reappears on the Astral Plane.

This, again, would be DM fiat.


Another attack angles... the right build could Demand that the simulacrum turn off the defenses.
...Seriously, what?

[InvisibleBison]

It's only unreliable if you lack imagination.
Or have never played 20 Questions as a child.
The likelihood that you will get useful information out of that spell is fairly high. And if you get information that is suspect, there is nothing stopping you from casting it again and asking the same questions to someone else and seeing if the answer changes.
...Unless the DM wills it.

And, again, he does not at all need to be aware of any specific threats ahead of time in order to stop them.

Contact Other Plane explicitly says that it only gives one-word answers, so I don't see how you'd get sufficiently specific information to actually prepare for anything.

[Anthrowhale]

"Such spells should function in any location coexistent with or coterminous to the plane" is not good enough for you?

Okay then, try these:

How does any of that function at all if the astral projection spell can only be cast from the Material Plane?

Read closer---I never said that Astral Projection only works on the Material Plane. Instead, I said that it leaves your body on the Material Plane which is the actual text of the spell. There are several ways for a DM to resolve what happens when you cast the spell somewhere else.
1) Maybe the spell has no effect. This seems to be your preferred strawman.
2) Maybe your body is transported to the material plane. This is also consistent with the spell text.
3) Maybe you generalize from the text you quoted to having your body left behind on a demiplane.

The Manual of the Planes text you quote supports 3 as RAI, but it's far from RAW since the spell was reprinted in 3.5 with the Material Plane clause while the text you quoted was not as far as I know.

[Jack_Simth]

From the definition of the Spell Resistance section of spell descriptions. Which I also linked to.
...And quoted.
Did you even read it?
If spell resistance applied freely to the whole spell, then why does it specifically call out, twice, instances where spell resistance applied in the description?

You're protected by SR from the whole spell (the main entry), and you're protected by SR from the damage, too (specific line item). There's no contradiction there. There are spells to which SR partly applies. Those are called out as SR: (See text) or SR: Yes (See text), such as Guards and Wards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/guardsAndWards.htm). WotC has a LOT of editing problems. This might be one of them, but there's no contradiction, so the 100% RAW response would be that SR applies to the whole thing. Your DM has made a ruling that it does not. That's fine, but it's not 100% RAW, and is in favor of this wizard. Ever time I've brought one of that sort of thing up, you've called it DM fiat. If I assume you follow the golden rule, that means you want that sort of behavior applied to you. Thus, your Wizard is protected by DM fiat.



...What?

I earlier mentioned that if he wanders into an area in which planar travel doesn't work, then his contingency is useless. You then mentioned that he just doesn't go to those areas. So I then mentioned that they can be built around him, such as with Dimension Lock or Forbiddance. He uses Forbiddance on his demiplane. Did you even read what I said?


I guess it wouldn't seem like one, if you don't understand the rules of the game, or how certain spells work, or what "DM fiat" actually is.
This is getting into ad-hominen territory. Quit it.
It's only unreliable if you lack imagination.
Or have never played 20 Questions as a child.
Again, getting into ad-hominen territory. Please quit being directly insulting.


The likelihood that you will get useful information out of that spell is fairly high. And if you get information that is suspect, there is nothing stopping you from casting it again and asking the same questions to someone else and seeing if the answer changes.It is high. I've also seen it train-wreck in play. One answer that rolls "random" or "lie" leads to a series of questions that do not apply.

As to asking someone else? There's notes in other places that repeated inquiries into the same subject use the same roll. RAW, you can't just ask someone else to verify the answer. Again, the DM has made a specific ruling that's a small departure from RAW that protects this wizard. You've called such things that go the other way "fiat".



...Unless the DM wills it.

And, again, he does not at all need to be aware of any specific threats ahead of time in order to stop them.
To have a chance at stopping them, sure. To always stop them, not so much.


For one thing, he doesn't have to travel as an astral projection at all times.

And yet, that's in his write-up....

For another thing, there are no rules on the specific interactions between Astral Projection and Antimagic Field. The magic that making Astral Projection happen is cast upon the physical body, which is on an entirely different plane of existence from the one he enters with his physical copy, and where this hypothetical AMF is being cast.
The physical copy is specified by the spell. How is it not a part of the spell, which AMF thus suppresses?


It is entirely up to the DM to decide what happens, whether the traveler simply cannot appear in, or enter, an AMF, if the traveler is shunted back to his body upon being subject to one, or if his new physical body simply winks out and he reappears on the Astral Plane.

This, again, would be DM fiat.
As would be any ruling in the Wizard's favor.

...Seriously, what?
The Demand Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/demand.htm). Sending + Suggestion. Requires a bit of the target, but that's a material component with no listed cost; there's a number of ways to bypass that (from Eschew Materials (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#eschewMaterials) to duplicating it via another spell with it's own component line, such as Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)). A suggestion along the lines of "Your master is coming, you should open up the area for planar travel" fits into the 25 word limit, and makes for a fairly reasonable "Suggestion".


There's other bits... he's got some custom items, and all of those require DM approval (custom items aren't actually a given). So the DM has Fiat in this guy's favor. He walks around Mind Blanked, but his familiar finds him with Discern Location if the contingency ever goes off - which means the Familiar has a big cool-down period before he can find the stoned (or whatever) master... and anyone who knows about this contingency can go to the same place and have at least as good a chance of finding the master as the familiar does (and you can pick up on it with a spellcraft check to identify the effect used, if you're the one that triggers the contingency). There's more. This wizard is protected by a number of assumptions and rulings that are very specifically in his favor, but do not have to be. You've called such things DM fiat when someone's suggested they could also go the other way, but they're no less fiat when they go the wizard's way.


I'm not an expert on astral projection, but couldn't he dismiss the effect? I mean, the text says he can just will it to end, and BAM! his supposed opponents will be building an antimagic room all for nothing (since the AMF never goes out, they'll never know the difference from "suppressed" and "not there"). Worst case scenario, his titan simulacrum or clone scrys him to figure out something is up and then casts dispel magic onto the physical being, but that might be making too many assumptions.
Antimagic field suppresses whatever portion of the spell is in it's area, but leaves the rest alone. His body back at home on the demiplane stays in stasis, but the copy of him on whatever plane he's exploring gets suppressed. His mind does not exist at that instant to choose to return.

Clones are inert until the original is killed, so nothing to do there.

His Titan Simulacrum may be able to scry... but the Wizard is normally Mind Blanked, so the Titan will get the "blocked by magic" message. While in the antimagic field, he's impossible to scry, so the titan will get "blocked by magic" again. Titan doesn't know to do anything about it without extra add-on instructions not present until after I brought up the problem.

[Nifft]

And you're now the second person I've run across who seems to put such limits on that aspect.


It's not me putting on a limitation, it's the spell text.

Incidentally, I like that spell text limitation because Evil also has access to wish -- and usually easier access -- so if wish circumvented all protections against scry-and-die, then Evil would disproportionately benefit.

[Doctor Awkward]

Read closer---I never said that Astral Projection only works on the Material Plane. Instead, I said that it leaves your body on the Material Plane which is the actual text of the spell. There are several ways for a DM to resolve what happens when you cast the spell somewhere else.
1) Maybe the spell has no effect. This seems to be your preferred strawman.
2) Maybe your body is transported to the material plane. This is also consistent with the spell text.
3) Maybe you generalize from the text you quoted to having your body left behind on a demiplane.

The Manual of the Planes text you quote supports 3 as RAI, but it's far from RAW since the spell was reprinted in 3.5 with the Material Plane clause while the text you quoted was not as far as I know.

1) The spell clearly has an effect when cast somewhere else, as noted by the Manual of the Planes.
2) This is you reading into the spell and speculating it does things the text does not say. The text says "leaves" your body, not "moves", "transports", or "relocates". Nothing in the text of the spell or the dictionary definition of the word "leave" suggests your interpretation could possibly be correct.
3) I inferred the function of the spell from specific rules text present in the Manual of the Planes as well as listed examples provided. You are pulling hypotheticals directly out of your ass that fly in the face of implicit rules and common sense in order to support your conclusion. You aren't interested in arriving at the truth of the matter. You are interested in winning.

Regardless of the spell being reprinted, the Manual of the Planes is still valid rules text, since it is 3.0 material that has not yet been updated to 3.5, unless you can find a contradictory passage in another 3.5 book.


You're protected by SR from the whole spell (the main entry), and you're protected by SR from the damage, too (specific line item). There's no contradiction there. There are spells to which SR partly applies. Those are called out as SR: (See text) or SR: Yes (See text), such as Guards and Wards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/guardsAndWards.htm). WotC has a LOT of editing problems. This might be one of them, but there's no contradiction, so the 100% RAW response would be that SR applies to the whole thing. Your DM has made a ruling that it does not. That's fine, but it's not 100% RAW, and is in favor of this wizard. Ever time I've brought one of that sort of thing up, you've called it DM fiat. If I assume you follow the golden rule, that means you want that sort of behavior applied to you. Thus, your Wizard is protected by DM fiat.

You are assuming an awful lot right now.
Firstly, that this spell text is the result of editing problems that just happen to support your interpretation, as though the designers are a bunch of hacks that have only a tenuous understanding of grammar, sentence structure, and possibly the English language in general, rather than a group of talented professionals who get paid money to write things for a living. Similarly, you are assuming that this hypothetical editing mistake isn't the absence of ";see text" in the Spell Resistance line of the Forbiddance spell description. And lastly you are assuming that "my" DM was involved in that project at all, thus implying that I have played this at my regular game, or in fact any game.


I earlier mentioned that if he wanders into an area in which planar travel doesn't work, then his contingency is useless. You then mentioned that he just doesn't go to those areas. So I then mentioned that they can be built around him, such as with Dimension Lock or Forbiddance. He uses Forbiddance on his demiplane. Did you even read what I said?

No, no I read it.
I was just sort of flabbergasted you thought something like that would even work...
Okay.
In the event that an enemy spellcaster begins casting Dimensional Lock (a "20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a point in space"), the Imp uses his readied action to cast Dimension Door from his wand, taking both him and his master safely away.
In the event that an enemy spellcaster begins casting Forbiddance, the wizard spends the first four rounds of the 6 round casting time laughing at him, then orders his imp to punch him in the face on the fifth. Or alternatively, if the imp is otherwise engaged readying actions, he drops on him any of a hundred different spells to block line of effect.


This is getting into ad-hominen territory. Quit it.
Again, getting into ad-hominen territory. Please quit being directly insulting.
If you want to take my pointing out your argument lacks cohesion because your foundation of how the rules work is imperfect as a personal attack, then that's your business.

Just because you might detect snark in someone else's argument doesn't automatically mean they are making a personal attack. If I respond to your argument with snark, it doesn't mean that I am not taking it seriously. It just means that I found that particular argument to be incredibly lacking.


It is high. I've also seen it train-wreck in play. One answer that rolls "random" or "lie" leads to a series of questions that do not apply.

As to asking someone else? There's notes in other places that repeated inquiries into the same subject use the same roll. RAW, you can't just ask someone else to verify the answer. Again, the DM has made a specific ruling that's a small departure from RAW that protects this wizard. You've called such things that go the other way "fiat".
To have a chance at stopping them, sure. To always stop them, not so much.
Notes where?
Such notes are not present on the SRD, the Player's Handbook, nor the Rules Compendium.


The physical copy is specified by the spell. How is it not a part of the spell, which AMF thus suppresses?

It's not about whether or not part of the spell can be suppressed. It's about what happens next. You have repeatedly suggested that the astral projection would simply wink out, following the same rules laid out for summoned creatures and incorporeal undead. As an exact physical copy of the spellcaster in question, an astral projection is neither of those things.


As would be any ruling in the Wizard's favor.

You are arguing here whether or not DM fiat can exist.
...which, again, isn't the point.
The point is without a DM ruling one way or anther on various interactions upon which RAW is not clear, he cannot be killed.


The Demand Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/demand.htm). Sending + Suggestion. Requires a bit of the target, but that's a material component with no listed cost; there's a number of ways to bypass that (from Eschew Materials (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#eschewMaterials) to duplicating it via another spell with it's own component line, such as Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)). A suggestion along the lines of "Your master is coming, you should open up the area for planar travel" fits into the 25 word limit, and makes for a fairly reasonable "Suggestion".
I would against postulate that any plan which can be hedged out by the Titan casting protection from evil on itself has a statistically negligible chance of succeeding.
By virtue of not being automatically compelled to obey, it would know that whatever contacted it was not really its master.


There's other bits... he's got some custom items, ...
He has combined items, rules for which are found in the Dungeon Master's Guide, on page 282 in the sidebar under "Multiple Different Effects"


He walks around Mind Blanked, but his familiar finds him with Discern Location if the contingency ever goes off - which means the Familiar has a big cool-down period before he can find the stoned (or whatever) master...


and anyone who knows about this contingency can go to the same place...
Which they learn of how? By asking him?


(and you can pick up on it with a spellcraft check to identify the effect used, if you're the one that triggers the contingency).
Patently untrue.
Spellcraft can identify the spell being cast, and that's it. It tells you nothing else pertinent about the effects of it. You have no more chance of knowing which plane the "stoned (or whatever) master" went to than you do of knowing which plane a creature went to by using Wish, or the location of a sanctum that is the target of a Word of Recall, or the destination of a Teleport, or even Dimension Door.


There's more. This wizard is protected by a number of assumptions and rulings that are very specifically in his favor, but do not have to be.

Antimagic field suppresses whatever portion of the spell is in it's area, but leaves the rest alone. His body back at home on the demiplane stays in stasis, but the copy of him on whatever plane he's exploring gets suppressed. His mind does not exist at that instant to choose to return.
Nothing in AMF or AP says this.
This is an assumption on your part based on how you think the spell should work.
Any ruling at all by any DM in any way that is either contrary to the printed rules or not covered by the printed rules is by definition DM fiat. If the wizard is killed or otherwise permanently stopped as a result, then it has happened because of DM fiat. Not because of the Rules As Written.


His Titan Simulacrum may be able to scry... but the Wizard is normally Mind Blanked, so the Titan will get the "blocked by magic" message. While in the antimagic field, he's impossible to scry, so the titan will get "blocked by magic" again. Titan doesn't know to do anything about it without extra add-on instructions not present until after I brought up the problem.

Oh for goodness sake...
The Titan has Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld).
At best, an Antimagic Field has a 50% chance of foiling his efforts to locate the wizard using Soul Scry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/soulScry.htm). And the Titan can also be ordered to cast Dispel Magic on the body in stasis in the event that spell (or any other personally researched Epic scrying spell) fails for any reason, which ends the Astral Projection and returns the wizard to normal.

And all of this is contingent on your assumption that such absurdly specific methods of attack would somehow not constitute a threat that is incapable of being revealed by Contact Other Plane. Or one of a hundred other divination effects he has at his fingertips at any given moment.

As a matter of fact, every single argument you've postulated so far is a specific conceivable threat that you assume would work out of hand because I did not mention it specifically in the original post, which runs contrary to the entire point of the character. He is a perpetually paranoid, 20th level diviner whose specializes in knowing the future ahead of time. The suggested spells does not come anywhere close to fill all of his spell slots for the day, nor does it account for the countless other abilities he could access at a moments notice using Shapechange. He automatically sees all existing magical effects, invisible, and ethereal creatures or objects within his line of sight. He can throw for True Seeing to negate the entire Illusion school of magic. He is immune to instant death on account of the Soulfire enchantment, and he is immune to any transmutation effect that alters his form (including petrification) on account of the Proof Against Transmutation enchantment unless he allows it. He cannot be magically located (other than utilizing epic spells) unless he allows it. Any attempt to enter the space closer than 100 feet to him using any teleportation effect is automatically delayed for three rounds, AND he is immediately alerted to the exact location to which they will arrive. He cannot be caught flat-footed and is never surprised, which means at minimum he can use Celerity to cast any standard action spell he wants to interrupt any possible threat that might materialize in his presence.

...and finally, even in the highly unlikely event he is somehow subject to the effects of an Antimagic Field, he can simply cast the 9th level spell Invoke Magic in order to use Dimension Door to take himself and his familiar to safety.

You are blatantly assuming I claimed the character to be invincible and unkillable at Pun-Pun levels of effectiveness. That is not the case. All that I have ever claimed is that, if he loses, it won't be because of an oversight of, or a specific function of, the Rules As Written. It will be because the DM exercised his right as a DM and deemed that he should lose.

[Cosi]

Incidentally, I like that spell text limitation because Evil also has access to wish -- and usually easier access -- so if wish circumvented all protections against scry-and-die, then Evil would disproportionately benefit.

Honestly, the impact of whether or not RAW wish makes teleport ganks unblockable on the likelihood of a victory for evil is kind of minor compared to the existence of planar binding loops or spawn creating undead, There are ways to cause the apocalypse, and there are apocalypse cultists. Yet the apocalypse remains uncaused. That's a way bigger hole than "maybe it's easy for bad people to stab you".

[Nifft]

Honestly, the impact of whether or not RAW wish makes teleport ganks unblockable on the likelihood of a victory for evil is kind of minor compared to the existence of planar binding loops or spawn creating undead, There are ways to cause the apocalypse, and there are apocalypse cultists. Yet the apocalypse remains uncaused. That's a way bigger hole than "maybe it's easy for bad people to stab you".

The fixes for that stuff would be a different topic from this thread.


That aside, your argument -- "two things are broken, so don't worry about either of them" -- is a very poor way to think.

Can you imagine Cosi getting pulled over for a broken headlight, and trying to use this argument? "Oh no officer, don't worry about the headlight. My brakes don't work either, and that's a much bigger problem, so just ignore the headlight."

[Cosi]

That aside, your argument -- "two things are broken, so don't worry about either of them" -- is a very poor way to think.

That is a poor argument, which is why I didn't make that argument. I said that there is a problem that blows up the world, so it's stupid to worry about a problem that makes it slightly harder for people with very high level enemies to defend themselves until you solve that. Also, by implication, that your argument (that RAW is not as broken as it looks) is stupid. RAW is already terminally broken as a result of things that are unambiguous. Therefore it doesn't actually matter whether ambiguous things are broken, because we have to have houserules or gentlemen's agreements for the game to function at all, so one more is not a concern that it is worth arguing over.

To borrow from your analogy, if you're taking your car to the mechanic to get the brakes fixed, it doesn't really matter if the headlight is broken or not. If it's not, it's not. If it is, it gets fixed on the trip you were already making.

[Nifft]

Also, by implication, that your argument (that RAW is not as broken as it looks) is stupid.

Luckily you're the only one to mention that argument.

You seem to be trying hard to pick a fight.

Sorry, I'm not interested.

[Cosi]

Luckily you're the only one to mention that argument.

Says the person who was presenting "evil does better under the other interpretation" as a reason to support his interpretation of RAW. At least, that's what "I like that spell text limitation because ... if wish circumvented all protections against scry-and-die, then Evil would disproportionately benefit" sounds like to me. Was there something else you were saying?


You seem to be trying hard to pick a fight.

You're the one who responded to a post that never disagreed with you (seriously, go back and look, I never said you were wrong about anything, just that the argument was stupid) with a strawman of what I said in an apparent effort to prove that ... honestly I have no idea, because my original post wasn't even an argument against any of the substance of what you said.

[Arbane]

This is a very important point that I think bears repeating.
It's not that every caster is going to trivialize every encounter, but rather that they have more tools in the toolbox to deal with different problems.
Asking questions based on a hypothetical scenario like with the goblins doesn't prove that casters aren't all that good, it would be hard to deal with, but a mundane would likely have an even harder time dealing with that issue.
This is where the disparity lies.

Consider out-of-combat situations, like those found in a lot of non-game-based fantasy stories:

Climb a forbidding mountain.
Sve someone with a disease/poison with a hard-to-get cure.
Cross the ocean.
Break a curse.
Solve a mystery.
Translate an ancient text.
Solve a religious doctrinal dispute.
Get the trust of a hostile person.
Create a legendary weapon.
Stop a drought.
Help someone deal with a missing limb.
Bring someone back from the dead.
Recover a treasure from the bottom of the ocean.
Find your way through a baffling labyrinth.
Sort a pile of mixed salt and sugar.
Visit Heaven or Hell and return.

A depressingly large number of them are an entire adventure (or just flat-out impossible) for the snivelling peasa non-spellcasters (regardless of level), or a single spell slot for the rightful overlords of the cosmo spellcasters.

(Edit: Annnd I see my point's already been made. That's what I get for not reading the whole thread first.)


A wizard can teleport, planeshift, and make himself immune to mind effects and elemental damage. The ubercharger requires a mountain of costly items to accomplish this.

Essentially a highly optimized mundane can be replaced with a few second level spells, while a wizard replacement requires millions of gold pieces.

....What they said.


And why would a sane and practical DM allow these shenanigans?


"Sane and practical" is not Rules As Written.

[Deophaun]

IIt works in practical terms, sure, but these NPCs that live in your fantasy world literally have to find these high powered loopholes and abuse them as best they can if they are to survive. These overpowered options exist, and someone is going to use them eventually, even if the PCs agree not to use them.
The game is trying to model a world.
The world is not trying to play a game.

The gentleman's agreement is that you act like your characters are part of the world instead of part of the game.

[Arbane]

The game is trying to model a world.
The world is not trying to play a game.

The gentleman's agreement is that you act like your characters are part of the world instead of part of the game.

Of course the problem there is that a large part of the entire concept of wizards is 'people who use their accumulated knowledge to gain ULTIMATE POWER and break the Laws of The Universe over their knobby little knees', so being the most grotesque powergamer imaginable is, in fact, excellent wizard roleplaying. :smalltongue:


Some of it is no doubt intentional, since superiority of magic and the power fantasy of an awesome magic-user (usually a wizard) smiting fools and solving problems as their sidekicks gape are baked into D&D's DNA.

Funny, most spellcasters in myth and fantasy are the heroes' advisors at best. Usually, they're the villains.
(insert rant about all the ways fighters ruled, wizards drooled in AD&D here.) Elminster has a LOT to answer for.

[Deophaun]

Of course the problem there is that a large part of the entire concept of wizards is 'people who use their accumulated knowledge to gain ULTIMATE POWER and break the Laws of The Universe over their knobby little knees', so being the most grotesque powergamer imaginable is, in fact, excellent wizard roleplaying. :smalltongue:
It's not merely a matter of roleplaying. It's that the game presents every option as being available to the player, when in fact every option is not available in the world. We reduce the ability for a wizard to learn a spell down to a spellcraft check--the DC determined solely by its level--with options for retrying that ensure that, eventually, the character will learn what the player wants the character to learn. But that does not mean the world actually works that way. Lahm's finger darts may be only truly learnable by a handful that have a particular talent for it, only two of which actually know the spell exists, and one of those doesn't like the feeling of his fingers ripping off whenever he casts the spell. Learning wish may get you put on the short list for the Inevitable hit squad, so few wizards are crazy enough to try to learn it, which makes trying to learn it even harder because there are no notes to crib from. But since it's in Core and can be one of the free spells a wizard gets, there are no rules for restricting it because those rules would be pointless. Flirt with summoning demons? No biggie. Demons are limited by the DM's intelligence, which the player can outsmart. It's not like the wizard himself has to outsmart the legions of the Abyss. 1 vs 1 is much easier than 1 versus infinity.

The PCs are very special in the world as they do have their own personal deities, the players, that know all that exists and warp the world to make sure the PCs get whatever they need, no matter how improbable that would be.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Consider out-of-combat situations, like those found in a lot of non-game-based fantasy stories:

Lets.


Climb a forbidding mountain.

Travel adventures are generally low-level adventures. If you're asking a party beyond about 5th level to climb a mountain it's because there's something -on- the mountain that needs to be found. Otherwise flight or teleportation are available for purchase without overmuch difficulty.


Save someone with a disease/poison with a hard-to-get cure.

RAW, there are only two ways to cure mundane disease; pass two fort saves in a row and be subject to remove disease. Difficult to cure is resistant to remove disease virtually by definition. The cleric gets to go on this adventure too.


Cross the ocean.

As I said above; either flight and teleportation are barred on undesirable somehow or this is a low-level adventure.


Break a curse.

Ironically, only the weakest of curses doesn't have a non-magical solution or lingers long enough for the spell to matter if you don't happen to have it prepared already.

With all the spells that got nerfed in the SpC, bestow greater curse got buffed. Really? Bah. This one I've gotta give you after all.


Solve a mystery.

If the mystery can be trivially solved by one or even a couple of spells, that's just a wretchedly built mystery. If it's built right those spells find clues and you still have to put them together with other information.


Translate an ancient text.

Really? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/decipherScript.htm)


Solve a religious doctrinal dispute.

Unless you're suggesting that just asking a god directly is a valid solution, I don't see how this gets solved without an adventure. If you are suggesting that, how can a religious dispute even crop up in the first place? Surely the god would have sent an obvious sign or herald and been done with it?


Get the trust of a hostile person.

Unless they're already actively trying to kill you -right now- this is just a skill check, maybe a few, or possibly even just a bit of RP at the table. Important figures that aren't warded from mental intrusion don't stay important long in a world where beguilers and enchanters exist either.


Create a legendary weapon.

A weapon becomes legendary by being the possession or creation of a legendary figure. Either way there was some adventure and even if you dislike Weapons of Legacy, DMG 2 has a lightweight version of "I'm so awesome my sword got powers" before you consider OA samurai and kensai existing.


Stop a drought.

You mean mitigate a drought. No single spell or even series of spells can do much about persistent weather patterns unless you go epic. Even the Thayan government has to employ large numbers of casters to keep the weather under long-term control.


Help someone deal with a missing limb.

Not sure how this is an adventure. Either you have the necessary magic available or somebody gets a wooden prosthetic. Now somebody that accepted a shady prosthetic and ended up a half-golem can give you an adventure.


Bring someone back from the dead.

Provided the soul is free and willing to return, sure. If not, you're going plane-hopping or hunting down the receptacle.


Recover a treasure from the bottom of the ocean.

Gotta find it first.


Find your way through a baffling labyrinth.

Either you're entering, in which case you don't get to press the skip button, or you're leaving. Magic does make the latter much easier.


Sort a pile of mixed salt and sugar.

Do what now? :smallconfused:



Visit Heaven or Hell and return.

Presumably this more than a sight-seeing tour. That being the case, magic skips part of the adventure, not the whole thing.


A depressingly large number of them are an entire adventure (or just flat-out impossible) for the snivelling peasa non-spellcasters (regardless of level), or a single spell slot for the rightful overlords of the cosmo spellcasters.

Which of them was supposed to be impossible other than the ones that flat-out demand magic to counter magic? Other than restoring a lost limb or breaking certain curses I'm seeing mostly stuff that's -easier- with magic but either still an adventure anyway or only an adventure if the DM forces it.

[Cosi]

Otherwise flight or teleportation are available for purchase without overmuch difficulty.

It seems very obvious to me that "you can just buy magic" is not "Fighters can solve the problem". If your solution is "do a thing a Commoner can do", that doesn't make your class not trash.


If the mystery can be trivially solved by one or even a couple of spells, that's just a wretchedly built mystery. If it's built right those spells find clues and you still have to put them together with other information.

Your argument here is fallacious. Spells can be necessary without also being sufficient.


You mean mitigate a drought. No single spell or even series of spells can do much about persistent weather patterns unless you go epic. Even the Thayan government has to employ large numbers of casters to keep the weather under long-term control.

This is one of those things that is problematic because D&D doesn't have good rules for large-scale non-combat stuff. I'm pretty sure that if the world follows remotely realistic weather patterns you can create at least medium term effects by using control weather a couple of times a day to create 6 mile wide storms that last a couple of days.


Not sure how this is an adventure. Either you have the necessary magic available or somebody gets a wooden prosthetic. Now somebody that accepted a shady prosthetic and ended up a half-golem can give you an adventure.

It doesn't have to be an adventure. But it's a challenge, and it's a challenge the Fighter can't do anything to solve.


Provided the soul is free and willing to return, sure. If not, you're going plane-hopping or hunting down the receptacle.

Incidentally, "plane-hopping" and "find a soul box that could be literally anywhere before you die of old age" are both on the list of things Fighters can't do.


Gotta find it first.

Hey, it's another one of those things Fighters have no ability to do.


Either you're entering, in which case you don't get to press the skip button, or you're leaving. Magic does make the latter much easier.

Depends. "Explore the labyrinth and find the monster inside" isn't solved by teleport. "Go to the center of the labyrinth" probably is unless there's some anti-teleport counter involved.


Do what now? :smallconfused:

I assume this is a reference to some specific myth.


Presumably this more than a sight-seeing tour. That being the case, magic skips part of the adventure, not the whole thing.

You're saying "skips" where you mean "is required for". The Wizard gets to start the adventure. The Fighter doesn't. The inequality here should be obvious.


Which of them was supposed to be impossible other than the ones that flat-out demand magic to counter magic?

Why should we discount those? "You must be this magic to ride" is totally a thing that happens in the source material.


Other than restoring a lost limb or breaking certain curses I'm seeing mostly stuff that's -easier- with magic but either still an adventure anyway or only an adventure if the DM forces it.

Would you care to explain the non-magical solution to raising the dead or traveling to hell?

[Arbane]

It's not merely a matter of roleplaying. It's that the game presents every option as being available to the player, when in fact every option is not available in the world. We reduce the ability for a wizard to learn a spell down to a spellcraft check--the DC determined solely by its level--with options for retrying that ensure that, eventually, the character will learn what the player wants the character to learn.

If the GM is willing to cut down the casters to only NIGH-omnipotence, that's fine. But even just using stuff in core allows a lot of shenanigans. (And it's even harder to rein them in when dealing with clerics/druids, who don't need any wimpy spellbook to have ALL THE SPELLS.)



Demons are limited by the DM's intelligence, which the player can outsmart. It's not like the wizard himself has to outsmart the legions of the Abyss. 1 vs 1 is much easier than 1 versus infinity.


To be completely fair, the PLAYER probably isn't as smart as their wizard character, either.

[Deophaun]

If the GM is willing to cut down the casters to only NIGH-omnipotence, that's fine. But even just using stuff in core allows a lot of shenanigans
And after I included a core spell in the discussion. So, to make it explicit: just because it's core doesn't mean it's universally accessible, either.

(And it's even harder to rein them in when dealing with clerics/druids, who don't need any wimpy spellbook to have ALL THE SPELLS.)
Again, you assume the world is playing a game. You assume that the mechanic provided for player characters to have ready access to game resources is how the world works, instead of just being a mechanic provided for player characters to have ready access to game resources.

To be completely fair, the PLAYER probably isn't as smart as their wizard character, either.
Doesn't matter. We aren't talking about parity between [average person vs average person] and [super genius versus super genius]. We're talking about [super genius versus super genius] and [super genius versus infinite super geniuses]. There's just so much more.

[Morty]

Funny, most spellcasters in myth and fantasy are the heroes' advisors at best. Usually, they're the villains.
(insert rant about all the ways fighters ruled, wizards drooled in AD&D here.) Elminster has a LOT to answer for.

"Myth" and "fantasy" are both such broad and vague categories that you can use them as proof of just about anything. And in D&D, at least as it has existed for the past 20 years, superiority of certain classes was a goal.

[Nifft]

And in D&D, at least as it has existed for the past 20 years, superiority of certain classes was a goal.

Hmm. It was certainly an outcome, but I'm not sure it was a goal.

Did a designer go on record about that from 20 years ago? I guess that would have been the late 2e / early 3.0e era.