Astral construct shenanigans

[CMagnum]

I'm DM of a campaign at the moment and I have a question about the past psionic ability astral construct. This is the first game we have brought psions onto the table for everyone involved and only one character is playing a psion.
The player can create a 3rd level astral construct at the moment. Here are a few texts he has sent me about ideas to use after reading about using it like a mech suit. I would like your opinions on rulings of these uses please.

If I made an ecto-suit how does that affect my AC?
Would it be the same as the construct?
If the construct gets hit and I’m inside it, does just it lose HP?
Does it work as if it’s cover?
What if I made a hollow sphere and crawled inside it? With a tiny peep hole? Does it absorb all the damage until it “dies”?
I picture a mostly solid sphere with a hole for me to climb in. A few peep holes. A flat bottom that allows it to move by constricting muscles like a snake. It has an arm to attack. Cliff keeps watch. (Cliff is his psicrystal).
Any thoughts are a big help thanks!
Cmagnum

[Nifft]

Why would you allow him to wear it as an "ecto-suit"?

Would you allow someone to summon a monster and wear it as a suit?

[PacMan2247]

As far as I'm aware, the Skin of the Construct feat is the closest anything from an official source comes to this, and it really doesn't come anywhere near it. He's talking at first about a "suit" and then moves rapidly into what could only be described as a vehicle, both of which are far outside of what astral constructs do.

Large constructs don't come online until 9th level, which is the absolute earliest I would think there's enough construct there for him to actually fit into it. Huge constructs, which is where I (personally) think it's a reasonable proposition, don't become available until 17th level, which is likely much later than you'd want to put this if you're going to allow it. Given the issues it would create for line of sight and line of effect in both directions, I'm not sure I'd agree to this.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There're abilities for this in the 3rd party book Hyperconscious. Yes, it's 3rd party, but it was written by the author of the Expanded Psionics Handbook and is EXTREMELY well-regarded among psionics fans as being very well conceived and executed, far better than Complete Psionic ever was. There's also Untapped Potential, which was made by the same guys who do PF psionics, who used Hyperconscious as a prequel of sorts for their book. It's also very well done.

[icefractal]

Vehicle is more accurate than suit, and as for why it would be possible when it isn't with Summon Monster, that would be because the latter doesn't let you choose the physical form of the creature.

I'd say that to do this without penalties, the construct needs to be two sizes larger, as per the rules on sharing a space. One size larger would count as grappling. You would have no LoE to the outside world if fully enclosed. If partially enclosed, that should probably count as cover.

[CMagnum]

It is fairly different from a summoned monster. They are formed of raw ectoplasm, and it says on the fluff that they vary depending on the casters whim.
I've seen people talk about making a wall from it, and in my understandings it seems like it's debatable. Why would you not allow someone to shape it how they desire? Is it just too powerful a defense? I think it would cut down on his options being in a sphere like he described.
The character has 8 ranks in craft: sculpting with this idea in mind.

[Malimar]

It is fairly different from a summoned monster. They are formed of raw ectoplasm, and it says on the fluff that they vary depending on the casters whim.
I've seen people talk about making a wall from it, and in my understandings it seems reasonable. Why would you not allow someone to shape it how they desire?
The character has 8 ranks in craft: sculpting with this idea in mind.
Because the rules don't support it. To reiterate icefractal: sharing space with a creature is either impossible or means you're Squeezing unless the creature is at least two sizes larger than you are. That's just the first problem.

To reiterate MaxiDuRaritry, look into Hyperconscious for actual rules support (albeit 3rd party).

[CMagnum]

Will do thanks for the help

[PacMan2247]

It is fairly different from a summoned monster. They are formed of raw ectoplasm, and it says on the fluff that they vary depending on the casters whim.
I've seen people talk about making a wall from it, and in my understandings it seems reasonable. Why would you not allow someone to shape it how they desire?
The character has 8 ranks in craft: sculpting with this idea in mind.

Good heavens, no.

It says that "An astral construct generally appears as an animate clump of ectoplasm with a vaguely humanoid shape, but the manifester can mold or sculpt one according to his or her whim within the limits imposed by the creature's size." That's a very clear size limitation to start with, and the paragraph continues to describe exactly what result you get from different check results: varying levels of accurate representation of a creature.

Making a wall from an astral construct is an attempt to use a 1st-level power to duplicate the effects of the 4th-level power Wall of Ectoplasm. There's no reasonable way to allow this. Manifest a construct to hold a door or block an archway, sure, but not to actually create a wall.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

An astral construct is a wall in the same way that the party's fighter is a wall, only (probably) quite a bit larger of one. It's mobile and things can't pass through it without Tumble checks or special abilities (such as ethereality or incorporeality). It can move and attack, which is even nicer. However, it definitely covers far less space than some walls as far as "impossible to move through" goes, though it can definitely cover a comparable area in 3D space, especially if it's built with Improved Trip and a reach weapon of its size.

Astral constructs are metaphorical walls, but they're not literal ones.

[CMagnum]

As always you all are very helpful. Thanks for all the info.

[Gullintanni]

Is there any way to get a permanent astral construct, similar, perhaps, to the way that a Ranger gets an Animal Companion?

It always surprised me, especially with the CPsi nerfs allowing only one construct, that I could never find a way to make an astral construct a permanent companion.

I wouldn't even mind having to permanently commit pp as long as the construct remained manifest.

IMHO the Constructor prc really missed the mark on this one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there any way to get a permanent astral construct, similar, perhaps, to the way that a Ranger gets an Animal Companion?

It always surprised me, especially with the CPsi nerfs allowing only one construct, that I could never find a way to make an astral construct a permanent companion.

I wouldn't even mind having to permanently commit pp as long as the construct remained manifest.

IMHO the Constructor prc really missed the mark on this one.Hyperconscious has a way to do this, but unfortunately the cost is absolutely astronomical. Millions or billions of XP for a mid-level construct isn't feasible under any interpretation. RAI is almost assuredly not what RAW indicates on that one, and it needs houseruled.

[ATalsen]

Is there any way to get a permanent astral construct, similar, perhaps, to the way that a Ranger gets an Animal Companion?.

Well, if your using Pathfinder stuff (or willing to import it since 3rd party is already being suggested), you can get a longer duration via Advanced Constructs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/advanced-constructs-psionic/) feat. Which grants new menu options once of which is:


Utility (Ex): Your construct can perform tasks for you. This can include such tasks as cleaning, cooking, or setting up camp, or any other activity that requires a DC 10 or lower skill check. An astral construct with this option does not need to stay close to the manifester and will continue following any given order until given other instructions. You can select this menu option multiple times. Each time, the DC of skill checks the construct can attempt increases by 2. An astral construct with this option that is not used in combat has a duration of 1 hr./lvl.. If it later enters combat, its duration resets to 1 round/lvl., but suffers a -2 penalty to its attack rolls.

Its a bit less able in combat and will poof at the end, but if you wanted a pre-summoned version so you don't waste time in combat, or you wanted a non-combat construct, this a great way to get it.

[CMagnum]

So I have showed the player your answers and he's now trying to make an argument for a flat board like a tower shield with arms and legs.
In his words:
I will shape it flat like a board.
About the size of a himaniod
And stand behind it.

I wrote:It's gotta be vaguely humanoid shaped, I don't think the board thing is gonna fit that description

His response:“Generally appears” is vastly different than “it’s gotta be”

He seems to really be set that this is something he should be able to do. Which apparently it is not.

[Nifft]

Is there any way to get a permanent astral construct, similar, perhaps, to the way that a Ranger gets an Animal Companion?
(...)
I wouldn't even mind having to permanently commit pp as long as the construct remained manifest.

You can have one that costs zero PP, as a Swift action, and appears an unlimited number of times per day:
- http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a (scroll down to Personal Construct)

... but it doesn't last more than a few rounds each time.

Still quite useful as a thing to throw into every combat.


EDIT:

(...) He seems to really be set that this is something he should be able to do. Which apparently it is not.
Sounds like you have a potential problem player on your hands. Hopefully you can turn him around.

IMHO you need to establish boundaries, and ensure that he doesn't feel like he can boss you around using the rules (or his loose interpretation of the rules), since apparently that's a thing he is trying to do.

Tell him firmly "No", and hope he respects you enough to respect your judgment.

[Fouredged Sword]

"You can make it look like that. You cannot give it special rules or effects outside the stated power's listed effects. It grants cover exactly like any other creature."

[PacMan2247]

You can have one that costs zero PP, as a Swift action, and appears an unlimited number of times per day:
- http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a (scroll down to Personal Construct)

... but it doesn't last more than a few rounds each time.

Still quite useful as a thing to throw into every combat.


EDIT:

Sounds like you have a potential problem player on your hands. Hopefully you can turn him around.

IMHO you need to establish boundaries, and ensure that he doesn't feel like he can boss you around using the rules (or his loose interpretation of the rules), since apparently that's a thing he is trying to do.

Tell him firmly "No", and hope he respects you enough to respect your judgment.


"You can make it look like that. You cannot give it special rules or effects outside the stated power's listed effects. It grants cover exactly like any other creature."

Seconded in both cases. Best of luck to you, and don't let him walk all over you trying to get from perfectly reasonable fluff to overriding the actual stated effects of things.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Notes:

(1) The Astral Vambraces soulmeld, when bound to the arms chakra, lets you select a single Menu A soulmeld.

(2) The Dual-Plane Summons feat lets you apply all astral construct menu options to the creatures summoned by a summon monster spell.

(3) The Constructor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) prestige class grants you a utility construct. It has no menu abilities, but a duration of 1h/level. It can explicitly be used as a mount.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Notes:

(1) The Astral Vambraces soulmeld, when bound to the arms chakra, lets you select a single Menu A soulmeld.

(2) The Dual-Plane Summons feat lets you apply all astral construct menu options to the creatures summoned by a summon monster spell.

(3) The Constructor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) prestige class grants you a utility construct. It has no menu abilities, but a duration of 1h/level. It can explicitly be used as a mount.Correction; it has no offensive menu abilities.

...maybe.


The astral construct loses all attack capabilities and menu selectionsUnless it's "all attack (capabilities and menu selections)," it loses out on a ton of utility, given that it can't fly or swim or use various other menu abilities that can be used outside of combat. The utility construct has less utility than the combat construct? That's dumb.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Correction; it has no offensive menu abilities.

...maybe.
Fair enough :smalltongue:. I don't think "attack menu selections" is something, so I don't think it can be read that way, but it'd certainly be a nice boost to utility constructs.