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The Jack
2018-04-13, 08:04 AM
Goblins are always a plentiful monster, but how do they work?

This is a weird thread. But I want to formulate a sound, non-magical idea on how goblin babies could work

We assume:
Goblins have intelligence equal to or near that of humans and thus need big heads at birth.
The average male goblin'd be of a similar height to a child of 8 (but could develop more adult musculature.)
primitive conditions with predators and enemies.
The least magical option is the best. otherwise I'd just handwave the question and think of something cool. I'm aware that goblins originated as a fae type creature, but for the purpose of this thread we're going for a more biological explanation.

We don't assume
That female goblins are equally represented or are dimorphic in the way human women are. They could be hidden assets, broodmothers, or maybe goblins are wasp like creatures; female goblins don't exist and a genderless race of outwardly-male creatures plant their young in victims of other species. Maybe they reproduce asexually (though I find that less interesting if you're looking through the goblin point of view)

Maybe they're exactly like humans, only they can make their numbers larger because each member needs less food on account of being smaller.

How long should pregnancy last?
How long should it take to be fully grown
How many children should a birthing have. Should they have one young, or can we look forward to great litters?

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-13, 08:55 AM
I think goblins grow to larger numbers primarily because they breed faster - they reach maturity faster, pregnancies are shorter, multiple births, and so on.

This means that they quickly outgrow what their current habitats can sustain, forcing them to go to war. Quite possibly, this pattern is also why they have more primitive societies.

On the other hand, a goblin society that somehow achieves to manage the situation might very well be able to sustain large standing armies - provided regular wars diminish their numbers to sustainable levels. Such a goblin empire might be quite a horrendous neighbor.

The Jack
2018-04-13, 09:25 AM
I think goblins grow to larger numbers primarily because they breed faster - they reach maturity faster, pregnancies are shorter, multiple births, an

Yes, but without much magic, how do you do this?

You need a minimum size of head for goblin level of intellegence, so there's a pretty big minimum sized baby, if I'm not mistaken.

Now with that into account, how can a goblin mother have a quicker pregnancy, or multiple births, given her size relative to her children is worse than that of a human.

Blackjackg
2018-04-13, 10:38 AM
Have you considered making goblins an egg-laying species? Having the later stages of gestation occur outside the body would allow them to have relatively large broods without sacrificing the head-size conceit. They could even still be mammals, as long as they're monotremes (like platypuses).

Draconi Redfir
2018-04-13, 10:46 AM
i always figured Goblins just gave birth in litters. Pregnancies probably only last a few months at most. From there i's maybe one year until maturity.

There's probably a bit of wiggle room for head size, as Goblins are more often then not depicted as slightly dumber then humans in ways, so they might be able to get away with a slightly smaller skull then you expect, since maybe they aren't quite as human-level intelligence naturally, or at least not without training.

That or the most likely answer is that their heads are much smaller when they are born, and their heads grow rapidly in proportion to the rest of their bodies.

Most likely in order to sustain such a population there ARE an equal or greater number of females, they probably just don't do many things outside the tribe. Children are likely raised by the entire group with no set of "Parents" known, so each female is helping take care of each other female's children. While they're doing that they're probably also working on making and maintaining clothes, tools, weapons, cooking food, and making sure what passes for hygiene and cleanliness in Goblin society is maintained.


Yes, but without much magic, how do you do this?

You need a minimum size of head for goblin level of intellegence, so there's a pretty big minimum sized baby, if I'm not mistaken.

Now with that into account, how can a goblin mother have a quicker pregnancy, or multiple births, given her size relative to her children is worse than that of a human.

easy answer: female goblin bellies are VERY stretchy. They can probably up to double in size while pregnant and become reliant on support from other less-pregnant goblins in order to stay alive.

redwizard007
2018-04-13, 10:49 AM
I suppose the easiest way to do it is to alter the pelvic structure of goblin females. The pelvis could have evolved as two separate bones connected by cartilage or a more exotic connective tissue. The bones would dislocate naturally during child birth and reseat with little problem. Thus larger heads through birth canals.

Another option would be to enlarge the size of goblin females, particularly in the hips. This would have a similar effect as above.

An additional option would be altering the child in ways to simplify birth. Perhaps the goblin skull is even more malleable than that of humans. Perhaps the infants are born earlier in their development. Perhaps goblins are God Damned marsupials, and finish gestation in a pouch...

How much versimillitude do you need?

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-13, 12:53 PM
You need a minimum size of head for goblin level of intellegence

Pixies are the size of your thumb, and have genius int. Anyways, I guess I fail to see the problem. I get your point, sure, but maybe their neurons are denser? Maybe their brains grow more after birth?

Frankly it's hard to say, having no intelligent species to compare ourselves to. Maybe we're all basically retarded, comparatively? =)

Joe the Rat
2018-04-13, 01:01 PM
Break your first assumption - they need a brain of sufficient complexity and surface area, not size. They may be more folded compared to humans, possibly with fractal subfolds. This might make them weird thinkers.

They may have protracted growth - start relatively smaller, grow more. Yet-developing connections could be argued for a more bestial childhood. Paired with rapid physical development, you get right proper little monsters. Brain development could extend well into "maturity" - goblins are not the most forward thinking of beings (one of my favorite takes: elves are about grace, halflings are about comfort, goblins are about bad ideas), so having poor prefrontal development until late in life could work.

Or my favorite: goblins aren't mature. They're the larval form of bugbears.

NecroDancer
2018-04-13, 01:08 PM
an easy answer is for goblins to be egg laying however that might start to butt into kobold physiology.

Giving goblins the ability to give birth in litters is probably the better option. Perhaps you could have goblins be born with survival instincts or age faster so they will be able to leave their families and spread sooner.

Draconi Redfir
2018-04-13, 01:11 PM
keep in mind that brain size isn't as important as brain size compared to the body. Sperm whales have the biggest brain in the world, but even they aren't human level intelligence.

The Jack
2018-04-13, 05:26 PM
An issue with goblins being born with less development is... well, humans are already pretty useless for their first few years of life, and they've got far less danger to deal with than a goblin would. Underdeveloped babies is a huge problem, though I don't particularly know if there's a maximum growth rate/if certain creatures can grow fast enough for it to be feasible.


I want to avoid goblins being having eggs like birds/reptiles. It's just not right.

The litter idea only really works with
A- Females being very big, having crazy hips, and/or being almost immobile from full pregnancy.
B-undeveloped babies.
C Magic, but I wanna keep this kind of thing mundane.

I've considered that goblins hunt for other (larger) creatures to breed with, which is a bit grim, but perhaps an ogre might be able to carry dozens of goblins at a time.

Draconi Redfir
2018-04-13, 06:05 PM
consider the fact that goblins give birth in litters as a solution to the problem of underdeveloped babies + huge risk. it's undenyable that a good half of them would make it to maturity, so they have a lot of babies at once and spread them out in order to improve chances that at least some will survive. Possible that multiple females (some possibly not even mothers) and/or adolescents will carry around several infants and scatter if there is danger. that way while some will likely die, many more will survive to the next generation.


Underdeveloped babies is a huge problem, though I don't particularly know if there's a maximum growth rate/if certain creatures can grow fast enough for it to be feasible

It's possible. Blue whales grow more then thirty pounds a day, doubling it's size in just six months from birth. (https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-fastest-growing-mammal)

Goblins comparatively are significantly smaller then blue whales, so if a blue whale can double in size in six months, a Goblin can at LEAST reach adulthood in a year. if not less.



The litter idea only really works with
A- Females being very big, having crazy hips, and/or being almost immobile from full pregnancy.
B-undeveloped babies.
C Magic, but I wanna keep this kind of thing mundane.

Trust me. there is Nothing wrong with a wide-hipped goblin lady (http://bolloxtothat.tumblr.com/post/157258464814/commission-done-for-snicker-snack-emaild-so). Shortstacks man, gotta love 'em:smallcool:


So your best bet is a combination of A and B. wide-hipped females birthing underdeveloped babies (And maybe being immobile during late pregnancy, but hey so are some humans) and birthing in litters.

The science doesn't need to be perfect for it to be non-magical, it just needs to be believable. I made a non-magic breed of trolls that have salt in their blood where we'd normally have iron. Does it make perfect scientific sense? no. but it makes enough sense that i can get away with it.

Akolyte01
2018-04-13, 06:51 PM
Of all the quibbly little realism details, head-size-at-birth is a very odd one to get hung up on.

I like the idea of them breeding so fast that they must constantly expand.

King of Nowhere
2018-04-13, 07:24 PM
Goblins are always a plentiful monster, but how do they work?


Maybe they're exactly like humans, only they can make their numbers larger because each member needs less food on account of being smaller.


This is the canon answer in my world. Goblins reach maturity around age 7, can live up to age 50, and an average goblin couple make some 20 children - you don't need litters of undeveloped goblins for that, just assume a pregnancy of 4 months and 2 pregnancies per year. Some twins to speed things up.
Goblin that live in the goblin nation cannot are already stretching the carrying capacity of their environment. So when their young hit age 7, 90% of them is sent out to die and stop wasting everyone's resources. Those outcast are the raiding bands, and it explains why they are desperate enough to attack at high-suicidal odds.
Wild goblin tribes have very high mortality rates because everything is bigger than them, so they need those 20 children just to keep their population stable.


Yes, but without much magic, how do you do this?

You need a minimum size of head for goblin level of intellegence, so there's a pretty big minimum sized baby, if I'm not mistaken.

Now with that into account, how can a goblin mother have a quicker pregnancy, or multiple births, given her size relative to her children is worse than that of a human.
That seems a really strange thing to bother your suspension of disbelief. We can accept that halflings and gnomes are as smart as humans despite being half the size, with proportionate heads. why can't goblin be the same? Either you accept that and you handwave brain size, or you decide that all halflings have a very huge head that make them look deformed from human standards, or you decide that all halflings are retarded.
Regarding development and growth, if you can accept that elves reach maturity at 100 without being much more mature than a human, and that they do not appear to have particular learning disabilities, then you can also accept that goblins can grow and mature faster. Regarding brain power, it just depends on the brain growing and forming connections. Regarding emotional maturity, living in a harsher environment makes people mature faster, though in ways that we deem unhealty. The average goblin would look like suffering from some form of ptsd to us. regarding knowledge, they probably have less than humans of the same race. but a few years are more than enough to learn most trades.

You can also go the salarian (http://aliens.wikia.com/wiki/Salarian) way: eidetic memory, one hour of sleep per night and accelerated time perception let them learn anything extremely fast. they get their phd around 12, make great scientists, and die around 40.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-13, 10:35 PM
Underdeveloped babies is a huge problem

It feels a bit like you ask the question - but you don't really want the answer.

Goblin babies are about the size of a goblin hand, and normal litter size is 5. The tiny babies are entirely feral until they grow brains big enough for higher functions. They mature very rapidly, rivalling various types of wildlife - rats, if you want to be negative about it.

Brain sizes are not an issue, growth rates are not an issue, females do not need to be huge. It happens all the time, all over nature.

Raphite1
2018-04-14, 12:30 AM
Of all the quibbly little realism details, head-size-at-birth is a very odd one to get hung up on.

😂😂😂 Seriously, this is a weird thread. Just imagine something up.

Not all brains are the same. Birds have far smaller neurons than mammals, and so they can pack more power into a smaller skull. Just imagine whatever you want for your dang goblin brains.

Or, like others have said, just imagine that their brain/skull grows more than human brains after birth.

Ahhh I’m just perpetuating this by responding. Goblin brains for days. 😩

Vykryl
2018-04-14, 12:34 AM
Why not model it of chimpanzee birth cycle? Just shorten the weaning period. Should be roughly the same skeletal size.

Nifft
2018-04-14, 02:52 PM
Maybe goblins are just one stage of a parasitic organism's life cycle.

It could go like...


- Tape worm that infects a dragon ("wyrmworm").

- Wyrmworm eggs feed on dragon poop, and hatch into various dungeon-oriented aberrations (e.g. carrion crawlers / gricks / gibbering mouthers).

- These aberrations poop out rot-grubs until slain.

- Rot-grubs infest a warm-blooded humanoid and, upon the humanoid's death, become eggs.

- These eggs hatch into goblins.

- The goblins get eaten by a dragon, and the cycle repeats.

Mabn
2018-04-15, 03:38 PM
I have a couple of possibly helpful suggestions to tweak things that other people have mentioned. The reason human hips aren't wider despite the real and extreme risk of death during childbirth they cause is that wider hip bones on a humanoid frame quickly render running impractical. If running wasn't essential to a goblin's lifestyle they could easily have human size hip structure on a 3 foot tall body if that's what it took. Also brain size is just a shorthand people use for complexity of neuron arrangements, whales use longer neurons as they grow bigger and end up with their intelligence as we would consider it not scaling at all linearly with their size, crows have neurons many times more dense than ours and manage tool use with a brain the size of a nut. A species of spider has its neurons arranged totally different from ours and is capable of problem solving as long as it can think about said problem for a really long time. All these approaches have pros and cons obviously. Pick a weird and detrimental mental behavior you want goblins to have and evolution could probably shave down brain size while keeping equivalent intelligence by making it a default.

kieza
2018-04-15, 05:33 PM
The idea I use in my setting is that goblins multiply quickly because they reach physical maturity faster...but only physical maturity. They reach their adult size around 12, but their minds aren't fully developed until around 18-22, closer to humans. The growth process is weird: very young goblins are barely sentient, because they don't actually have a full-size brain when they're born: their heads retain a lot of cartilage until they're about 10, and their brains continue to grow for the first several years. During that time, they have trouble retaining information and skills, because their neural pathways continue to shift as their brains expand. Then, once their brains are physically complete, around the age of 12, they begin a phase of rapid mental and emotional maturation, equivalent to what a human child goes through from the ages of 3 to 18, but compressed into 5 to 6 years. The end result is that goblins first grow physically to their full size while remaining extremely childlike, and only then do they experience adolescence and start to mature mentally.

Goblin societies tend to fall into one of three categories based on their attitude towards their adolescents:

1) Keep the adolescents under tight control. These tend to be the most stable, orderly goblin groups, but it requires keeping young goblins literally locked away from anything dangerous, including other young goblins. They can integrate reasonably well with humans and other races, but they may also devolve into slaving despots: locking your offspring up for their own good tends to encourage authoritarianism.
2) Give the adolescents free rein. These tend to be chaotic, anarchic groups, and they would multiply like rabbits if they didn't have a high mortality rate. The adolescents throw themselves into dangerous, adrenaline-fueled pursuits like alchemy and dangerous magics, driven by their perception of invulnerability and lack of inhibitions. Imagine a bunch of feral children who have just been handed a pile of guns, alcohol, and explosives, and you can sort of visualize what these kinds of goblins are like.
3) Get rid of the adolescents. These tend to be warlike, aggressive groups, and they send their adolescents out on frequent raiding parties to control population growth, and keep them from upsetting the social order close to home.

Jay R
2018-04-15, 05:41 PM
How will answering this question improve the game for your players?

I generally assume that there are more goblins over the mountain I haven't mapped out, or in tunnels beneath the earth.

In my current game, they and many other monsters live in a different plane which has been closed to the PC's world for over 200 years. This means that there has been a time of peace and prosperity, and a dearth of high-level heroes. Now that the way is open again, low-level PCs are at or near the top. When the 2nd level party helped save a town besieged by goblins, they were the town's great heroes.

Nifft
2018-04-15, 06:06 PM
I generally assume that there are more goblins over the mountain I haven't mapped out, or in tunnels beneath the earth.

I was struck with a silly image -- miners accidentally striking the Goblin Motherlode -- but then I remembered how the LotR movies had Saruman pulling orcs out of the ground, and now I wonder if it's maybe not that silly.

What if goblins / kobolds / whatever were actually some kind of humanoid-tainted earth elementals, and you found them infesting mines because that's where they got dug up.

After being awakened (by picks & shovels, which explains their general temperament), they try to collect all the metals and precious stones nearby, and return them all to the earth.

FreddyNoNose
2018-04-15, 06:44 PM
Yes, but without much magic, how do you do this?

You need a minimum size of head for goblin level of intellegence, so there's a pretty big minimum sized baby, if I'm not mistaken.

Now with that into account, how can a goblin mother have a quicker pregnancy, or multiple births, given her size relative to her children is worse than that of a human.

chalk it up to evolution if you need to.

Jay R
2018-04-15, 09:10 PM
What if goblins / kobolds / whatever were actually some kind of humanoid-tainted earth elementals, and you found them infesting mines because that's where they got dug up.

After being awakened (by picks & shovels, which explains their general temperament), they try to collect all the metals and precious stones nearby, and return them all to the earth.

In fact, Germanic kobolds were considered mine spirits, who offered what looked like copper ore, but turned out to be worthless and poisonous when smelted.

Scientists finally discovered that the tainted ore actually contained another element, eventually named cobalt after the kobolds.

The lizard-like kobold is a purely D&D invention.

Mechalich
2018-04-15, 10:05 PM
Something to keep in mind is that the monster demographics of standard D&D or PF are ridiculous and absurd, with far too many monsters, especially powerful monsters, in any given area resulting in levels of devastation that are beyond belief. The goblin reproduction problem you mention is a symptom of having too many beasties. Solving it doesn't really help, you need to address the core problem: monster density, and concurrently the density of characters with significant class levels, is way too high.

Goblins function as hunter-gatherer/raiders in the environment. They will always be vastly outnumbered by the mass of peasants farming the land and will lag significantly behind pastoralist herding societies. However goblin society, being highly aggressive involves a much higher proportion of combatants than a human one, so they can threaten societies that far exceed their own numbers.

In terms of replenishment, individual goblin tribes can be wiped out easily, but the goblin (and the general 'goblinoid') population is spread across vast expanses of marginal territory and every time you kill the local goblins another goblin tribe from further out moves in and takes the marginally better land with increased raiding opportunities that just became available. It's a conveyor belt effect, and if all you do is keep killing the goblins closest to you no progress can be made.

By contrast, if you actually venture out into the wilderness and engage in systematic goblin xenocide that absolutely should have a dramatic impact in the setting. This generally doesn't happen because goblins are poor and the economic incentives are against sending armies of extermination into hostile wilderness.

Nettlekid
2018-04-15, 10:48 PM
How about they're like kangaroos - when they're actually born they're incredibly tiny, and continue to grow either on their own outside or in something akin to a pouch. Maybe adventurers have thought they were looking at a three-headed Goblin when it was in fact a mother with two growing babies with their heads out of the pouch.

Going to support Draconi Redfir's argument that a wide-hipped Goblin lady is always welcome. Google some images for inspiration, you will not be disappointed.

Alternatively, like everyone's already said at you, since they're smaller than Humans if everything was proportionally smaller then it ought to average out in the end. Brain is 60% the size, body is 60% the size, brain-function-on-body is equivalent. If you want to get nitpicky, Goblins...ARE dumb, aren't they? So having smaller brains makes sense.

Now what about Halflings and Gnomes? You haven't addressed them yet.

hamishspence
2018-04-16, 01:14 AM
If you want to get nitpicky, Goblins...ARE dumb, aren't they? So having smaller brains makes sense.

Depends on the edition. In some, their average intelligence is the same as the average intelligence of humans.

vasilidor
2018-04-16, 02:09 AM
The thing I find most confusing about this thread is the need to justify anything in a fantasy game.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-16, 12:52 PM
Goblins function as hunter-gatherer/raiders in the environment.

This is, without a doubt, The Great Goblin Fallacy. Actually, this is the question the OP should be asking:

How is it that a race that's as clever as humans, that lives in a ressource rich environment, outbreeds most races, has bonuses to skills and combat and stealth and basically all things, doesn't rule the world?

And the only reasonable reply is: Because their rapid reproduction forces them to overexpand.

If a goblin empire ever got the factors right, and under control, they'd crush all the rest, easily*.

*Discounting all the other OP races, of course.

Nifft
2018-04-16, 01:32 PM
And the only reasonable reply is: Because their rapid reproduction forces them to overexpand.

Well, not the only reasonable reply.

Maybe dragons think goblins are ugly, so they exterminate goblins for mercilessly aesthetic reasons whenever goblins appear -- so goblins are stealthy, and don't rule the world.

Maybe humans are only the top race because dragons think some humans are cute, so humans get dragon-attacked less than other races.

In a world with gods and fiends and dragons, someone thinks you're too ugly to live can be a legitimate existential threat.

FreddyNoNose
2018-04-16, 02:12 PM
The thing I find most confusing about this thread is the need to justify anything in a fantasy game.

Well, I think sometimes GMs want to be serious about this stuff. I've gone through phases of that. But there can be a level at which it adds a little bit of fluff/flavor without having to take a lot of effort.

Breeding rates can be high. Nothing wrong with that. Getting to adult goblin age doesn't have to match humans. They should ask about dwarf and elf types for those kinds of things.

Intelligence isn't unreasonable.

It really all depends on what is driving the GM. He needs to solve it himself.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-16, 02:35 PM
Well, not the only reasonable reply.

Maybe dragons think goblins are ugly, so they exterminate goblins for mercilessly aesthetic reasons whenever goblins appear -- so goblins are stealthy, and don't rule the world.

Maybe humans are only the top race because dragons think some humans are cute, so humans get dragon-attacked less than other races.

In a world with gods and fiends and dragons, someone thinks you're too ugly to live can be a legitimate existential threat.

Well - I mean, it was meant as a joke. And I did specifically note discounting all other OP races. But yes, other than those things, you're entirely on point: Dragons are the natural predators of pretty much all other life in a fantasy world. But .....!!

That just leads us to The Great Dragon Fallacy! :p

Nifft
2018-04-16, 02:42 PM
That just leads us to The Great Dragon Fallacy! :p Is that the thing where everything is blamed on dragons?

Like:
- "Of course you won't learn the truth about dragons in school. The education industry is controlled by dragons."
- "Obviously the media won't talk about dragons. The dragons control the media."
- "The dragon conspiracy is keeping my people down."

Celestia
2018-04-16, 04:22 PM
You could always have goblins reproduce through budding.

Joe the Rat
2018-04-16, 06:18 PM
Is that the thing where everything is blamed on dragons?

Like:
- "Of course you won't learn the truth about dragons in school. The education industry is controlled by dragons."
- "Obviously the media won't talk about dragons. The dragons control the media."
- "The dragon conspiracy is keeping my people down."
Is this where the Gnomes of Zurich tie in?

Jay R
2018-04-16, 09:11 PM
How is it that a race that's as clever as humans, that lives in a ressource rich environment, outbreeds most races, has bonuses to skills and combat and stealth and basically all things, doesn't rule the world?

Tolkien's orcs and goblins don't rule the world because they don't like gathering into large armies. They'd rather be part of a small raiding party. It takes a powerful leader like Sauron, and even then, they don't work well together.

Mechalich
2018-04-16, 11:22 PM
Well - I mean, it was meant as a joke. And I did specifically note discounting all other OP races. But yes, other than those things, you're entirely on point: Dragons are the natural predators of pretty much all other life in a fantasy world. But .....!!

That just leads us to The Great Dragon Fallacy! :p

There's not really a fallacy there. In both FR and Dragonlance history posits that dragons ruled the world for an immense period of time prior to the rise of other races (elves first, then humans). FR is actually the most appropriate since the dominance of magic was only halted by introducing an epic spell into the system that periodically drove all the dragons insane.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-16, 11:39 PM
Is that the thing where everything is blamed on dragons?

No, not really.

The goblin fallacy is that the monster manual wants them to be cannon fodder, and makes them two dimensional and boring - but then at the same time gives them all the tools to be a succesful race in open competition with all the dominant races. Goblins have bonuses to everything they should need to beat the crap out of most everyone else.

So it's selfcontradictory, and that's a fallacy.


There's not really a fallacy there. In both FR and Dragonlance history posits that dragons ruled the world for an immense period of time prior to the rise of other races (elves first, then humans). FR is actually the most appropriate since the dominance of magic was only halted by introducing an epic spell into the system that periodically drove all the dragons insane.

Fluff is meaningless. Also, the original settings are universally awful, with precisely two exceptions (Planescape and Dark Sun).

The dragon fallacy is the disconnect in having super powerful enemies - but giving them zero motivation for anything. Dragons are the most boring monsters in the book, because all they do is lounge about on a gold couch. You literally can't use them for anything.

Of course Dragonlance tries to fix that, by making dragons common as muck, and making it their ambition to be mounts. Nice job.

The Jack
2018-04-17, 04:47 PM
No, not really.

The goblin fallacy is that the monster manual wants them to be cannon fodder, and makes them two dimensional and boring - but then at the same time gives them all the tools to be a succesful race in open competition with all the dominant races. Goblins have bonuses to everything they should need to beat the crap out of most everyone else.

So it's selfcontradictory, and that's a fallacy.

This is sort of the mindset that spurred the thread.
On paper; Goblinoids should rule the world. Now hobgoblins are easy enough to work out. Regular Goblins however have so much to work with. There's so much room to work with making their sociology incredibly interesting from a human's perspective, but if you cheat on their biology, there's less human interest there.

vasilidor
2018-04-18, 01:28 AM
Competition with Kobolds. where the goblins have specialized in stealth, the kobolds have done so with traps. the kobold trap out does the goblin, whereas the goblin stealth out does the koblod resulting in neither species gaining the upper hand.
I am under the working theory that grimtooth was a kobold.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-18, 06:11 AM
Competition with Kobolds. where the goblins have specialized in stealth, the kobolds have done so with traps. the kobold trap out does the goblin, whereas the goblin stealth out does the koblod resulting in neither species gaining the upper hand.
I am under the working theory that grimtooth was a kobold.

Ooh. Kobolds have sorcerers, goblins have psions. Interesting. But yes, kobolds are similar - I'm not sure I know why I forget about them, they're as good at things as the goblins are. And now I'm getting ideas for a game world where human kingdoms are struggling against the expanding empires of goblins and kobolds.

Although, maybe it works against the kobolds that they're sort of willing slaves of the dragons? Will they ever be masters of their own destiny?

Jay R
2018-04-18, 09:22 AM
Some people think dragons have all the tools to be a successful race in open competition with all the dominant races, and think it's a fallacy that dragons don't rule the world.

Some people think goblins have all the tools to be a successful race in open competition with all the dominant races, and think it's a fallacy that goblins don't rule the world.

But if you can make the argument about two different races, then the fallacy is the argument itself.

It's simply not true that a race with all the tools will necessarily rule the world, just as there are many, many individual people with the tools to be successful who nevertheless aren't succeeding.

---

Now, here's my specific answer to the question, for my world-building purposes. YMMV.

Dragons can't conquer the world because there is no single army or nation called "the dragons". They don't cooperate; many are directly and violently opposed to other dragons. The largest unit of dragon social organization is the family.

Goblins can't conquer the world because there is no single army or nation called "the goblins". They don't cooperate; many are directly and violently opposed to other goblins. The largest unit of goblin social organization is the tribe or village.

To conquer the world, you must first have a cooperative structure large enough to conquer the world.

Grim Portent
2018-04-18, 09:32 AM
Goblins are always a plentiful monster, but how do they work?

This is a weird thread. But I want to formulate a sound, non-magical idea on how goblin babies could work

We assume:
Goblins have intelligence equal to or near that of humans and thus need big heads at birth.
The average male goblin'd be of a similar height to a child of 8 (but could develop more adult musculature.)
primitive conditions with predators and enemies.
The least magical option is the best. otherwise I'd just handwave the question and think of something cool. I'm aware that goblins originated as a fae type creature, but for the purpose of this thread we're going for a more biological explanation.

We don't assume
That female goblins are equally represented or are dimorphic in the way human women are. They could be hidden assets, broodmothers, or maybe goblins are wasp like creatures; female goblins don't exist and a genderless race of outwardly-male creatures plant their young in victims of other species. Maybe they reproduce asexually (though I find that less interesting if you're looking through the goblin point of view)

Maybe they're exactly like humans, only they can make their numbers larger because each member needs less food on account of being smaller.

How long should pregnancy last?
How long should it take to be fully grown
How many children should a birthing have. Should they have one young, or can we look forward to great litters?

I usually run with goblins as one of the types of fae and have them be born in unusual manners, but it might be fun to come up with a biological reproductive method.


They're smaller than humans, but have a similarly advanced brain, so I'd say a gestation time a bit shorter than humans is good if we want them to come out similar to human babies, or about the same or a bit longer if we want them more advanced, let's say about 10-11 months but they come out able to walk and explore their immediate surroundings similar to a gazelle. This takes a load off the work needed to care for them by the adults.

We need a mother who can both birth them safely and frequently to keep numbers up, so I expect we'd need something akin to a queen molerat mixed with a queen ant, a single large breeding female who prevents other females from becoming fertile but who becomes near entirely dependant on the others to care for it while pregnant, probably with a handful of 'husbands' who serve as attendants and guards and the rest of the colony caring for babies and gathering supplies. This model of breeding works pretty well for large colonies of animals who have a high turnover rate in offspring without overpopulating as easily as something like normal rats who all breed all the time. The queen is probably large enough to carry multiple offspring at once, depending on how developed they come out, perhaps 3+ depending on how well fed she is and her size, but more complex babies means less being born at once.

Maturation needs to be fast since goblins live a primitive lifestyle and have high death rates even without coming into conflict with other sapients, humans used to put kids to work by about 4-6 years of age, goblins might manage it by 2 or 3. Breeding probably about 7-9 assuming there is no current queen.

Individual colonies would probably be small, no more than 40 members or so with litters spaced 1.5 or so years apart, but in this scenario a colony is basically one extended family, so several could compose a tribe by cooperating for common goals and living in close proximity. Colony size is limited by their breeding cycle, so the main source of population growth comes from females starting new colonies when food is plentiful.

When food becomes scarce they either fight other colonies or seek non-goblins to pillage for supplies. Problem is that when female goblins go raiding for extended periods they leave the fertility suppressing effect of the queens behind and start spinning off with a few males to form new colonies, resulting in goblin infestations sprouting up anywhere they raid for long periods of time which causes others to view them much as a farmer views a colony of moles living under their fields.

Jay R
2018-04-18, 10:05 AM
There's another reason why goblins don't take over the world. It's an ordinary, common, simple boring answer, hard to recognize by players who play adventurers: Yes, humans are routinely attacked, crushed, shoved aside. But also, humans farm.

The large number of ruins and artifacts from earlier ages is proof that great empires crumble. Warlords conquer, Kings rule, Patriarchs purge, and raiders raid. And then they are gone.

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

Humans have the most farmers. They are surrounded by enemies with more power, and more abilities. They are ravaged by dragon power, trampled by monster stampedes, outlived by elven immortality, overwhelmed by goblin fecundity. And the humans grow food. They suffer raids, and they grow food.

From The Magnificent Seven:

Village Boy 2: We're ashamed to live here. Our fathers are cowards.

O'Reilly: Don't you ever say that again about your fathers, because they are not cowards. You think I am brave because I carry a gun; well, your fathers are much braver because they carry responsibility, for you, your brothers, your sisters, and your mothers. And this responsibility is like a big rock that weighs a ton. It bends and it twists them until finally it buries them under the ground. And there's nobody says they have to do this. They do it because they love you, and because they want to. I have never had this kind of courage. Running a farm, working like a mule every day with no guarantee anything will ever come of it. This is bravery. That's why I never even started anything like that... that's why I never will.

Goblins have more population growth. Elves have more great wizards, Orcs more great Barbarians. Dwarves create more Fighters, and Halflings more Rogues. But they have never rivaled humans in the greatest class at all - the one that sees the humans through all the centuries.

The old man in The Magnificent Seven said, "Only the farmers have won. They remain forever. They are like the land itself. You helped rid them of Calvera, the way a strong wind helps rid them of locusts. You're like the wind - blowing over the land and... passing on. Vaya con dios. "

It's not the adventurer classes that win. It's not cleverness or strength or fast reproduction. The most important class of Humans, the one that ensures they will never be destroyed, is Commoner.

The Samurai Kambei Shimada was the leader of the adventuring party in Seven Samurai. His final line was, "The farmers have won. Not us."

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-18, 10:46 AM
But also, humans farm.

So do goblins. So does any race intelligent enough to do so. Don't let the monster manual fool you, it's obviously written cover to cover by fools and incompetents. In actual fact, more goblins can live off less land - so they are better farmers than humans by default.

Friv
2018-04-18, 12:36 PM
So do goblins. So does any race intelligent enough to do so. Don't let the monster manual fool you, it's obviously written cover to cover by fools and incompetents. In actual fact, more goblins can live off less land - so they are better farmers than humans by default.

If you want a sociological reason for goblins not to generally rule the world, it's pretty simple:

"Usually Neutral Evil"

Goblins don't work well together. Goblins can farm, but if it's easier to steal from the farm next door they're likely to do that. Goblins can raid, but they don't march in legions because they're looking out for Number One. They don't form the big organisational bureaucracies because self-interest is more important than working systems. Goblin empires aren't stable because there aren't enough goblins willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of their fellows.

(Hobgoblins are Lawful Evil, so they can build halfway-functioning empires, but they're probably so militaristic that they can't grow effectively due to all the getting killed in war.)

Jay R
2018-04-18, 01:43 PM
So do goblins. So does any race intelligent enough to do so. Don't let the monster manual fool you, it's obviously written cover to cover by fools and incompetents. In actual fact, more goblins can live off less land - so they are better farmers than humans by default.

The suggestion that goblins "ought" to rule the world is based entirely on their description in the rulebooks. Once you refuse to accept that description as evidence, you've thrown out the entire argument.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-18, 03:16 PM
The suggestion that goblins "ought" to rule the world is based entirely on their description in the rulebooks. Once you refuse to accept that description as evidence, you've thrown out the entire argument.

The problem is that the description contradicts itself. That the fluff and the stats are at odd.

But this was a joke, and I'm not getting drawn into making it an actual discussion.

Nifft
2018-04-18, 04:08 PM
The problem is that the description contradicts itself. That the fluff and the stats are at odd.

The fluff and the stats are both rules text.

Per the text, a goblin does not behave in exactly the same manner as a Small human with -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, and -2 Charisma would behave. They behave like the text says they do: they live by raiding and stealing. They don't build civilizations, they despoil them.

Some settings subvert this text, and that's fine. In a setting where goblins are civilization-builders, like Eberron, clearly goblins are civilization-builders -- and the one they built defeated the Daelkyr (albeit at great cost), so it was not a trifling thing.

But the default D&D goblin is not the same goblin which built a continent-spanning Apocalypse-cancelling empire in Eberron.

Your setting can do whatever it wants with goblins. But there's no conflict between the default stats and the rest of the default text. Goblins are as smart as humans, but they don't behave identically to humans.

Pronounceable
2018-04-19, 04:14 AM
otherwise I'd just handwave the question and think of something cool.
It's totes what you should do. Why confine yourself with reality when you've got gods and wizards round every corner?

Goblins are fey. They just magically spawn somewhere or come pouring in from Feywild and wreak havoc until slain. Then they respawn as hobgoblins and wreak superior havoc until slain. Then they rerespawn as bugbears and run off to become solitary boogiemen living in the woods and caves. Third time's the charm in goblinoid solutions cos they're fairies.

What's even the point of goblins being a bunch of utterly mundane small humanoids who just happen to be evil pricks when the exact same thing can be accomplished by hobbit raiders? Or gnome raiders? Or kobold raiders? Or xvart raiders? Or tasloi raiders? Or svirfneblin raiders? Or kender raiders? Or gibberling raiders? If there isn't a dramatic enough difference between one fantasy race and all the others, they shouldn't even exist. DnD put out hundreds of nigh identical critters over the decades solely to fill up more Monstrous Manuals to sell to the gullible, there's no reason for us to indulge or encourage this.

So go nuts.

hamishspence
2018-04-19, 06:13 AM
The fluff and the stats are both rules text.

Per the text, a goblin does not behave in exactly the same manner as a Small human with -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, and -2 Charisma would behave. They behave like the text says they do: they live by raiding and stealing. They don't build civilizations, they despoil them.

Some settings subvert this text, and that's fine. In a setting where goblins are civilization-builders, like Eberron, clearly goblins are civilization-builders -- and the one they built defeated the Daelkyr (albeit at great cost), so it was not a trifling thing.

But the default D&D goblin is not the same goblin which built a continent-spanning Apocalypse-cancelling empire in Eberron.



Some humans "live by raiding and stealing" too. That bit describes goblins in general - but it doesn't have to be inborn - it can simply be a summary of goblin cultural norms in default campaign settings.

It doesn't have to apply to them throughout the time the species has existed, either.

Eberron goblins used to be "civilization builders". Now they "live by raiding and stealing" - at least, a large proportion of them do.

Because their civilization fell, and other civilizations have expanded into its niche.


If you want a sociological reason for goblins not to generally rule the world, it's pretty simple:

"Usually Neutral Evil"

Goblins don't work well together. Goblins can farm, but if it's easier to steal from the farm next door they're likely to do that. Goblins can raid, but they don't march in legions because they're looking out for Number One. They don't form the big organisational bureaucracies because self-interest is more important than working systems. Goblin empires aren't stable because there aren't enough goblins willing to sacrifice themselves for the good of their fellows.

I think The Giant said it best:



Maybe, for all Monster Manuals, leave out the alignment line in a statblock entirely?

Yeah, I think that would take care of 90% of the problem. I mean, you can still describe the goblins' place in the world and how they usually live by raiding civilized nations without passing a personal moral judgment on all of them. Let alignment be something assigned by the DM when he places that creature in his campaign. If he wants them to be amoral slavers, he gives them an Evil alignment; if he wants them to be scrappy survivors making the best out of their lot in life, he might give them True Neutral or even Chaotic Good (especially if the civilized nations are Evil Empires). DMs already do that for every human that appears, is it so difficult to imagine doing it for the other races, too? Leave inborn alignment to the overtly supernatural—if it exists at all—and away from biological creatures.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-19, 07:09 AM
The fluff and the stats are both rules text.

And they contradict each other. And that's the problem. Now, the fluff is boring, oversimplified, two dimensional. The numbers, however, are open to enterpretation. That's why if you go with the fluff, goblins will always be boring, oversimplified, two dimensional. But if you go with the numbers, goblins can be whatever you want them to be.

Ratter
2018-04-19, 09:19 AM
Goblins are born spiderlike, limbs growing out of their head in litters of anywhere from 2-10. They are born with a full set of teeth and the fine size. They, after 2 days, begin to grow an oval body that is very large in comparison to the rest of the body (note: some goblinoids dont stop this process throughout their life cycle. they are known as hobgoblins.) The goblins then grow a thin neck seperating their head from their body. Their limbs by this point, will have moved down to their body. They right now are small sized. Their body does not grow but their limbs and head does. They are now sexually active as small goblins (6 weeks old). after growing to the age of 59 their limbs begin to balloon into nutrient rich vitamins. They, at this point, are medium. They then die at the age of 60, allowing the warren to eat their bodies, resulting in a nutrient rich feast (note: some goblinoids start this process much younger and the nutrients, instead of being stored in special easy to vite through glands, they are stored in muscles resulting in a stronger, but slower goblin, these goblinoids are called bugbears). The goblins are sexually active through the ages of 6 weeks to 58 years of age.
NOTE THIS FOLLOWING SPOILER CONTAINS HOW THEY REPRODUCE SO IT MIGHT NOT BE A GOOD IDEA TO OPEN IT IN LIKE SCHOOL OR WORK
Goblins reproduce through warren wide orgies. They form a massive ball of different goblins that consist of the full warren including pregnant goblins and old goblins. The goblins then pleasure each other as all female orifices can lead to pregnancy from the ages of 10 months to 20 years of age, after this they can only mate like normal mammals. Goblins are pregnant for 3 weeks before giving birth to a full litter.

Ratter
2018-04-19, 09:58 AM
And the reason goblins haven't taken over the world? disease. Because of how fast they reproduce, new generations generally dont have immunity to diseases, letting plagues persist for multiple generations. this results in lots of dead tribes, resulting in no goblin empire lasting for any period of time, a city is a breeding ground for plague, add a bad immune system, an unsanitary way of mating and a dangerous way of giving birth and suddenly the odds get much worse. Elves arent primary species for the oppossite reason, once someone dies, you need 100 years to make another productive member of society, humans are the sweet spot.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-19, 10:24 AM
limbs growing out of their head in litters of anywhere from 2-10

The lucky ones get four limbs, divided into 2 arms and two legs, in their proper placements.

Yea, goblins are weird like that =D

Friv
2018-04-19, 11:01 AM
I think The Giant said it best:

Oh, sure. Evil species are pretty lazy writing; I don't use them. But if you're starting from a point of "we're following the written fluff about goblins" and reaching a point of "and it doesn't make sense", you have to look at all the fluff. If goblins aren't inherently a cowardly and cruel species, then you can rewrite all of the fluff to suit you, and the reason they raid can be pressure from other species, or a propensity away from violence, or godly intervention (as in OotS) or so on.

Ratter
2018-04-19, 11:03 AM
The lucky ones get four limbs, divided into 2 arms and two legs, in their proper placements.

Yea, goblins are weird like that =D

Sorry, I meant to say that they are born with limbs growing out of their heads, and 2-10 goblins are born per litter

Draconi Redfir
2018-04-19, 12:09 PM
really think you are all overthinking it. it doesn't need to be spider-head goblins or fey-goblins or queen-bee goblins or whatever else.

"Female goblin gives birth to a litter of 5-10 very small baby goblins. they mature in one or two years and repeat the process" fills out basically ever criteria you need.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-19, 12:33 PM
Sorry, I meant to say that they are born with limbs growing out of their heads, and 2-10 goblins are born per litter

I know what you meant, I was just trying to be funny =)

Tvtyrant
2018-04-19, 02:23 PM
Goblins are always a plentiful monster, but how do they work?

This is a weird thread. But I want to formulate a sound, non-magical idea on how goblin babies could work

We assume:
Goblins have intelligence equal to or near that of humans and thus need big heads at birth.
The average male goblin'd be of a similar height to a child of 8 (but could develop more adult musculature.)
primitive conditions with predators and enemies.
The least magical option is the best. otherwise I'd just handwave the question and think of something cool. I'm aware that goblins originated as a fae type creature, but for the purpose of this thread we're going for a more biological explanation.

We don't assume
That female goblins are equally represented or are dimorphic in the way human women are. They could be hidden assets, broodmothers, or maybe goblins are wasp like creatures; female goblins don't exist and a genderless race of outwardly-male creatures plant their young in victims of other species. Maybe they reproduce asexually (though I find that less interesting if you're looking through the goblin point of view)

Maybe they're exactly like humans, only they can make their numbers larger because each member needs less food on account of being smaller.

How long should pregnancy last?
How long should it take to be fully grown
How many children should a birthing have. Should they have one young, or can we look forward to great litters?

They age differently then humans. They grow their body first and their brain after, reaching adult size within a year but adult intelligence comes much later. The juvenile goblins instinctively follow the orders of true adults, which they can smell via pheremones.

They have litters of pups, of which few reach adult brain size. Adults have packs of juveniles that they care for, most goblin "tribes" consist of a few adults and numerous juveniles.

Juvenile goblins are best represented with a normal stat block but an int of 2-4, depending on their age. The juvenile period takes a long time for goblins but their childhood takes a measly year, like a dog they grow rapidly to avoid over predation.

This has some side effects on goblin society that makes them common but rarely a threat to human society. The juveniles are instinctive pack hunters but bad at farming, and there are relatively few adults so the population is relegated to hunter-gathering. There are more goblins then humans, but the majority are juveniles so technological and magical development is slow and hard to accumulate.

When goblins do threaten mankind it is by embracing Moon Cults. Goblins have a strong tendency to embrace lychanthropy when they can, and the majority of wererats and werewolves are goblins. The great anti-goblin crusades by various races have been more focused on wiping out lychanthropy then goblins in general, but humans have not yet realized that this is actually impossible. Great goblin hunters can be given the disease as a boon, restarting the process.

Lvl 2 Expert
2018-04-19, 04:40 PM
Apparently gibbons have a pregnancy of 7 months and take 8 years to become sexually mature. They have one kid at a time, mostly, and invest quite a bit in care for the first 8 months or so, but the child is far from helpless after the first year and starts leaving his parents side at 3. So they can at least theoretically have a child each year. The largest species grow to about a meter tall and +- 14 kg in weight and they can live for close to 40 years in captivity. So those might be a decent model for Goblin biology, if a constant rate of about 1 kid a year between the ages of 10 and 25 is good enough or can be stretched to be good enough. Our pregnancy's only last about 6 weeks longer than those of chimpanzees and with orangutans which are closer to us in size the difference is a bit smaller still, so the extra intelligence does not have to make that much of a difference...

Nifft
2018-04-19, 05:08 PM
And they contradict each other. And that's the problem.

The numerical text describes how they function in combat; the non-numerical text pertains to subjects other than combat numbers.

There's no contradiction.


Now, the fluff is boring, oversimplified, two dimensional. The numbers, however, are open to enterpretation. That's why if you go with the fluff, goblins will always be boring, oversimplified, two dimensional. But if you go with the numbers, goblins can be whatever you want them to be.

So basically, if you ignore the non-numerical text, then the non-numerical text can say whatever you want it to say.

Sure, but so what? You could always do that. You could also ignore the numerical text. In my game, the monster named "goblin" might be a tiny faerie spider which fixes shoes all night, and uses literally nothing from the MM entry.

Compared to that, making "goblins" just another type of humanoid sounds boring.

Why not write up a fallen human empire, and use those people for the "goblin" role? That gets everything you seem to want -- multi-dimensional personalities and the player expectation thereof -- but it gets that stuff by discarding the name "goblin".

So, what's the value of retaining the name "goblin"?

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-19, 11:22 PM
You could also ignore the numerical text.?

Sure you could, if what you want is boring, two dimensional cannon fodder. It so happens that that's not what I want. I want a race that is consistent with being on an equal footing, IQ wise, to the dominant races.

If I have dumb races, like orcs, I'll build them like that. If I have hyper intelligent races, like mind flayers, I'll use them in that context.

Races with the intelligence to build functional societies, will. In my book.

If you're fine with ignoring the fact that goblins are as intelligent as humans, don't let me stop you.

Nifft
2018-04-19, 11:49 PM
In my game, the monster named "goblin" might be a tiny faerie spider which fixes shoes all night, and uses literally nothing from the MM entry.

Compared to that, making "goblins" just another type of humanoid sounds boring.


Sure you could, if what you want is boring, two dimensional cannon fodder.

Are you even reading what I type?

If not, then we're done here.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-20, 12:54 AM
Are you even reading what I type?

If not, then we're done here.

... pretty sure that's my line. But I agree. Let's simply agree to disagree, we're not going anywhere with this =)

Jay R
2018-04-20, 10:26 AM
Oh, sure. Evil species are pretty lazy writing;

More importantly, the idea of an evil race isn't needed - even for a race I want to use that way.

There have been plenty of times when the human race on earth has produced evil cultures - or just raiding or conquering cultures who seemed entirely evil to their victims. I have no problem believing that all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture without ever having to consider the question of what orcs and goblins are like on other continents.

Nifft
2018-04-20, 11:38 AM
More importantly, the idea of an evil race isn't needed - even for a race I want to use that way.

There have been plenty of times when the human race on earth has produced evil cultures - or just raiding or conquering cultures who seemed entirely evil to their victims. I have no problem believing that all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture without ever having to consider the question of what orcs and goblins are like on other continents.

Could you list out all those evil cultures?

Friv
2018-04-20, 12:02 PM
Could you list out all those evil cultures?

I think that doing so is going to hit real-world politics pretty fast.

Nifft
2018-04-20, 12:09 PM
I think that doing so is going to hit real-world politics pretty fast. But that's the thoughtful, non-lazy alternative which has been offered. Surely it must be viable as an alternative. I mean, we can discuss the evils of orc / goblin / kobold / gnoll / drow cultures all day. In fact, such discussions are greatly helpful for DMs who want to run fun and interesting games.

@Jay R - can you list out all these evil human cultures which you're a proponent of using?

Lvl 2 Expert
2018-04-20, 12:28 PM
But that's the thoughtful, non-lazy alternative which has been offered. Surely it must be viable as an alternative. I mean, we can discuss the evils of orc / goblin / kobold / gnoll / drow cultures all day. In fact, such discussions are greatly helpful for DMs who want to run fun and interesting games.

@Jay R - can you list out all these evil human cultures which you're a proponent of using?

No he can't. Saying "Nazis were evil" is politics and thus against forum rules. I expect to get away with it only because I'm using the one example that is pretty much universally excepted at least in Western countries.

We also can't discuss what makes a real human culture evil, or how many if any evil human cultures there have been. They probably should not have even made that statement to begin with. If you want this discussion to be allowed keep it strictly to fantasy or other fictional cultures. (Star Wars, Starship Troopers, Mad Max, Greek mythology etc.)

Nifft
2018-04-20, 01:02 PM
More importantly, the idea of an evil race isn't needed - even for a race I want to use that way.

There have been plenty of times when the human race on earth has produced evil cultures


No he can't. Saying "Nazis were evil" is politics and thus against forum rules. I expect to get away with it only because I'm using the one example that is pretty much universally excepted at least in Western countries.

We also can't discuss what makes a real human culture evil, or how many if any evil human cultures there have been. They probably should not have even made that statement to begin with. If you want this discussion to be allowed keep it strictly to fantasy or other fictional cultures. (Star Wars, Starship Troopers, Mad Max, Greek mythology etc.)

His assertion is that evil fantasy races aren't necessary, and the reason he gives is that "the human race on earth has produced evil cultures". You're listing a reason why evil fantasy races are necessary: they circumvent real-world politics.

I think he's made a heavily flawed assertion, and the reasons that you're bringing up do tend to highlight some (but not all) of the flaws with Jay R's assertion.

None the less, maybe he's clever enough to obviate or mitigate those flaws.


@Jay R - Can you list out al (or at least some) of these evil human cultures, specifically the ones which render evil fantasy races unnecessary?

Lvl 2 Expert
2018-04-20, 01:06 PM
His assertion is that evil fantasy races aren't necessary, and the reason he gives is that "the human race on earth has produced evil cultures". You're listing a reason why evil fantasy races are necessary: they circumvent real-world politics.

Orcs are not inherently evil, but the Gwannin Orcs from the Bzorg mountains eat babies because their god demands it and torture puppies just for fun. In my alignment system both are seen as evil.

There, no real world politics, no evil race, evil culture.

(There is a whole bunch of baggage to both evil races and evil cultures in non-evil races, such as "is it ethical to kill them?" and "can they be converted to good?", and we may not be able to go into all of that, but that baggage is still weird with evil races.)

Jay R
2018-04-20, 01:08 PM
Could you list out all those evil cultures?


@Jay R - can you list out all these evil human cultures which you're a proponent of using?

Nope, for two reasons, one of which has already been pointed out by Friv and Lvl 2 Expert - the rules of the forums don't allow me to do so.

But also, if you've read any discussion of alignments here, you will realize that we don't all agree on what Evil is. So if I give examples, we will argue over those, which doesn't help the discussion. But if I merely point out that there are such cultures, I can make my point, which remains:

Even if I want all the goblins the PCs meet in my game to be Evil, I don't need the assumption that the entire race is Evil.

If all the people the PCs meet are English, that doesn't mean that the entire race is English.
If all the people the PCs meet are educated, that doesn't mean that the entire race is educated.
If all the people the PCs meet are starving, that doesn't mean that the entire race is starving.

And for the same reasons, if all the goblins the PCs meet are Evil, that doesn't mean the entire race is Evil.

Ratter
2018-04-20, 01:14 PM
@Jay R - Can you list out al (or at least some) of these evil human cultures, specifically the ones which render evil fantasy races unnecessary?

No, but I can.
He is implying that you dont have the "EVIL DARK RACE," but instead "Genghis Kahn's monguls" where essentially, they offer you the position of "The culture with your friends and family gets killed," or "I stop them," this could be humans, or goblins or anything, its not race specific, and no matter how much you argue (BLAHBLAHBLAH) group was actually good! doesnt matter. They just have to be framed as bad

AS AN EXAMPLE:

Our party was mostly elves from the elven stronghold of Elyse Allonar, now, Elyse was a pretty bad place to be, everything was hyper expensive, the law was terrible and chaotic, the leader was weak and everyone there was racist (well not everyone but the noble populace and the urchin populace) so this religious group, the Kosh.ites (who worship phoenix and are generally good people) raid this place because they took their relics. Now. The Kosh.ites were probably right in this scenario. They werent any given race, BUT FOR US, they were the universal bad guy, they werent orcs or goblins or kobolds, they were people wearing clothes that marked that they wanted to kill our families and torch our houses.

(sorry it is ko****es but it says I cursed ): )

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-22, 02:01 AM
'Evil' human cultures through history - say egypt, the mayans, the vikings, the mongols - are an argument for the opposite of what you think it is. Just saying.

Ratter
2018-04-22, 10:53 AM
'Evil' human cultures through history - say egypt, the mayans, the vikings, the mongols - are an argument for the opposite of what you think it is. Just saying.

? Evil in the D&D context just means "disagrees with the DM on various issues that are defendable with "its just a crappy thing to do,"" which makes evil cultures easy to write

Jay R
2018-04-22, 11:03 AM
'Evil' human cultures through history - say egypt, the mayans, the vikings, the mongols - are an argument for the opposite of what you think it is. Just saying.

You'll have to demonstrate that logic a bit more explicitly.

I brought up evil human cultures as an argument that I can have my PCs attacked by an Evil tribe or society without assuming that the entire race is Evil. I believe that the presence of evil human cultures throughout history (and implicitly, the concurrent presence of good, or at least neutral, human societies) makes a good argument for that.

The opposite of what I think it is would be that the presence of an Evil society means that entire race must be inherently Evil.

Feel free to develop the logic train defending the opposite of what I think it means. But you'll need to actually show us the logic, not just assert it.

jhonny
2018-04-22, 12:55 PM
I really liked this topic. I would like to help maybe thinking how general a goblin gestation could last 4-6 months and have offspring of 6 to 8 tiny new born goblins. Like Nettlekid say ´´How about they're like kangaroos - when they're actually born they're incredibly tiny`` and have offsprings like dogs with 6 to 10 puppies. This is panda bear video in youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kJdJo2h16M
Goblins as survivors of the wild environment may have the knowledge of several plants/herbs, this means that some of these knowledge can have been imprinted in their brain or be goblinLore and some herbs can have the effect of increase the growth speed of the cub.

With an accelerated growth (something like 0-1 year and 11months for child, 2-6 for young, 7-19 for adult, >20 old) from a young age they are placed under situations of danger helping in the hunts and the defense, thus stimulating the development of the intelligence, by practical situations of life and death experience.

Depending on the environment with greater or lesser risks, with a greater or lesser amount of resources would influence the final development and explain the differences between some tribes.

Maybe this would be plausible and you could even put some degree of herbalism and alchemy knowledge.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-22, 12:57 PM
You'll have to demonstrate that logic a bit more explicitly.

Sure. None of the 'evil' human cultures have been even remotely universally evil - quite the opposite, even if the example was nazi germany, the great majority of everyone was just an ordinary, decent person.

Jay R
2018-04-22, 01:43 PM
I don't think we're disagreeing.


Sure. None of the 'evil' human cultures have been even remotely universally evil - quite the opposite, even if the example was nazi germany, the great majority of everyone was just an ordinary, decent person.

Yup.

Nonetheless, the effect on the people they attacked was not, most of the time, any different in effect from an attack from an evil culture. To the people whose entire village is being destroyed and the people enslaved or killed, it simply does not matter if many of the folks back home, and perhaps many of the soldiers, do not support such things.

That's why I used the clause "all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture," rather than something nonsensical like "universally evil". Specifically, I was arguing against the silly idea of being "universally evil".

The statement I brought it up to defend was, "I have no problem believing that all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture without ever having to consider the question of what orcs and goblins are like on other continents."

You have demonstrated that I am correct, and even strengthened my point, showing that we can believe that all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture without even having to consider the question of whether all the goblins in that specific culture are Evil.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-22, 02:01 PM
You have demonstrated that I am correct, and even strengthened my point, showing that we can believe that all the goblins or all the orcs that the PCs will meet are part of an evil culture without even having to consider the question of whether all the goblins in that specific culture are Evil.

Ok, I think maybe I didn't catch that distinction. Maybe regime is an even better term than culture. And if population growth generally forces expansionism, then sure, that race is going to make a bad name for itself among it's neighbors.

Jay R
2018-04-22, 02:11 PM
Ok, I think maybe I didn't catch that distinction. Maybe regime is an even better term than culture. And if population growth generally forces expansionism, then sure, that race is going to make a bad name for itself among it's neighbors.

Cool. Yes, I think "regime" communicates better. It changes my point slightly, but not in a bad way.

After a couple of back-and-forth comments, we have fully communicated and eventually agreed. That's what an Internet discussion can be at its finest.

Thank you.

FabulousFizban
2018-04-22, 05:20 PM
Eat
Rape
Pillage
Repeat

I would give goblins a life cycle similar to that of a chimp or early hominid. A pregnancy lasting around eight months with sexual maturity reached at around eight or nine years. As to fecundity? Litter size of 2-3 with weaning as early as 6 months to a year.

This rate of reproduction would give goblins a SERIOUS competitive edge that would see other races outbred and destroyed within a few thousand years if not for orgazational and technological superiority. You are basically seeing goblins reproduce twice as fast as humans, to say nothing of elves or dwarves.

I'd say goblins are "raised" collectively in warrens with little thought given to individual parentage. As soon as the little monsters are weaned, they are left to be cared for - or not - by older goblin children until they become self-sufficient. a high infant mortality rate of 15-20% is another reason the other races haven't been overrun and wiped out. keep in mind that in a medieval setting - even one where magic is helping out - human infant mortality is still probably around 5-10%. elven & dwarven rates are probably lower. that 15-20% btw is the real world infant mortality rate for pre-industrial societies.

There is probably an initiation rite into adulthood, bloodletting or somesuch, after which the goblin is expected to go on raids for food and other goods with the tribe. Indeed, resource collection is likely the primary occupation of most adult goblins, in order to provide for their ever growing numbers (sieging a tribe and waiting for them to starve is a time honored dwarven tactic).

Goblin society is strictly hierarchical, with children on the bottom, various strata of men, then the women - who would have undisputed matriarchal control of the warrens, then the politcal leaders and chieftain - who would all be male. while women rule the warrens, men rule the tribe.

These divisions would be based entirely on strength or the appearance of strength, and a particularly vicious female goblin might become chieftain - especially if aided by sorcererous powers, though this should be the exception rather than the rule as males would resent it and actively undermine her.

Given their respect for power (and the latter's laziness) it is not uncommon to find a goblin tribe led by a bugbear. Hobgoblins are more likely to use goblins as slaves and fodder, having their own complex society and a general disdain for their "lesser" kin.

Kelb_Panthera
2018-04-22, 09:28 PM
The thing I find most confusing about this thread is the need to justify anything in a fantasy game.

Immersion suffers when things don't make sense.

You -could- structure an RPG such that basically no two elements of the game world consider the implications of the other but it would be so alien to how people think in general that it would be virtually impossible to put the fact you are, in fact, playing a game that demands paperwork and appointments to the back of your mind. It'd be sitting there, starting you in the face for the entire length of every session.

Most consider that to be a major flaw in a system or individual campaign.

That out of the way, some people can suspend their disbelief and/or imagine the truly bizarre more easily than others. While you can't -really- play a game where nothing makes sense, you can get away with a certain degree of nonsense in a fantasy setting because players are willing to suspend their disbelief up to a point. You've got to find the breaking point, and not pass it, with your own group. Simple as that, really.

Logosloki
2018-04-23, 06:00 AM
A five year old human child has about 90% of the brain weight of a human adult (on average). Goblins are about the size of a five year old, they are usually shown in artwork to have a slightly larger than proportion head though. So in terms of volume and general proportions it wouldn't be too far-fetched that goblins could attain human equivalent intelligence despite their overall body frame.

Given their relatively short stature goblin babies would be smaller than human babies and may just have a faster growth rate. Growth rates are all over the show in nature so this wouldn't be as out of place as it sounds.

I'll spitball around 12 for the average age for goblins to begin giving birth (8 is physical maturation so it may be a case of how well the tribe is doing and whether reaching physical maturation also confers sexual maturation at the same time) and with a general lifespan of 60 a female could potentially give birth to 48 babies in their lifetime (one a year), as long as goblin females do not undergo a menopause phase (which, is extremely rare, there are only three animal species undergo menopause). This number would be of course much less than that given that goblins die, there may be some years where a female doesn't give birth due to various reasons.

So, with their shorter birth cycles, even at one a year goblins would begin to crowd out an area quickly.

Goblins have the height and weight range of a 5-8 year old boy, a goblin of similar stature would have a brain weight within the same bounds as adult humans if they were proportionally similar so intellect has the potential to be similar. Growth rates and sexual maturation are all up the wazoo in nature so it isn't particularly outside the realm of possibility of a smaller species might have a maturation period that matches up with goblins. Shorter generation cycles would mean goblins would begin to approach the capacity of their habitat a lot quicker but not really unexpected. Just look at us humans, we've extended ourselves out 6 billion people over a 200 year period.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-23, 01:01 PM
Cool. Yes, I think "regime" communicates better. It changes my point slightly, but not in a bad way.

After a couple of back-and-forth comments, we have fully communicated and eventually agreed. That's what an Internet discussion can be at its finest.

Thank you.

My pleasure, and likewise. I agree that regime and culture are different things - my thinking was that western culture, for instance, is overall good(-ish), but has still produced at least a couple of the most arguably evil regimes in human history.

Goblin Slayer
2018-04-26, 08:38 PM
have you read goblin slayer novel?

the author has a very good idea for a goblin life cycle and drew it out but fair warning tou its a bit more pg than other fantasy works.

DeoArmis
2020-06-12, 01:29 PM
Hi friends,
So we're missing some simple but key biological factors here, so let me address them in order.

Pelvic Size
This is irrelevant to how many children are birthed. It only affects the individual baby size. Animals that birth litters have smaller infants in general and push them out one by one, so a small pelvis is normal.

Single vs Litter
A litter sounds like a great idea for a species that relies more on numbers than size or intelligence for survivability! However, this will affect something no one's talked about yet...

Mammary Glands
There is a general rule among mammals called the "One-Half Rule" - it states the number of teats (or nipples) of the mother is approximately equal to the *maximum* litter size (barring rare abnormalities), while the *average* litter size is half that. So if we're going to envision the goblin species as producing children in litters, are we also imagining goblin females with six to ten pairs of breasts? If they continue with only two (like most bipedal mammals), then the extra offspring above the first two will likely starve (many humans have a hard enough time feeding one baby with two, for goodness sakes!).
Now it feels kinda awkward, but that's mammals for ya.

Conclusion
I like the litter idea - it fits their species' survival strategy. Hip size is irrelevant, but if you're not interested in making their females look pretty awkward, maybe you could reason that they are super producers of milk (and obviously exhausted from rotating half a dozen ravenous infants between two feeding stations all day and night!). ;)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2020-06-12, 02:44 PM
Maybe the females never stop producing milk after their first litter, and feeding any young is a communal task?

They're green, maybe they use photosynthesis like the Warhammer greenskins? You never see any goblins farming, that's why. They still need to eat meat for protein, but the majority of their calories is from sunlight.

flat_footed
2020-06-14, 11:28 AM
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