Psychic Rogue's DPR

[heavyfuel]

Been thinking of rolling a Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) and was theorycrafting its build when I came across a relatively big problem.

From a pure theorycraft point of view, it seems the Psyrogue has a very very low Damage Per Round output. It has delayed SA progression; it's more MAD than the standard Rogue, which will mean a lower attack bonus; no Trap Sense to trade in for (Lightbringer) Penetrating Strike; and it's even more feat intensive than standard Rogue (psionic, metapsionic, and Psicrystral Affinity) so it's harder to squeeze in TWF.

And if we're being honest, even the standard Rogue's DPR is bad. What with half the creatures being immune to SA (and again, psyrogue doesn't get Penetrating Strike), about a few dozen spells blocking it, and extensive use of move actions to reposition around the battlefield.

Since I'm really not used to psionic powers in general, I really don't know if they compensate the damage part (I'm pretty sure they more than compensate on utility stuff).


Also, since I'm already here, what do you guys think about Autohypnosys? Psyren's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234327-3-5-Thinking-on-your-Feet-The-Psychic-Rogue-Handbook) marks it as extremely useful, but it seems ok at best, being able to emulate two relatively low level spells (remove fear and delay/neutralize poison) at the cost of skill points and having to roll the dice.

[Venger]

Been thinking of rolling a Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) and was theorycrafting its build when I came across a relatively big problem.

From a pure theorycraft point of view, it seems the Psyrogue has a very very low Damage Per Round output. It has delayed SA progression; it's more MAD than the standard Rogue, which will mean a lower attack bonus; no Trap Sense to trade in for (Lightbringer) Penetrating Strike; and it's even more feat intensive than standard Rogue (psionic, metapsionic, and Psicrystral Affinity) so it's harder to squeeze in TWF.

And if we're being honest, even the standard Rogue's DPR is bad. What with half the creatures being immune to SA (and again, no Penetrating Strike), about a few dozen spells blocking it, and extensive use of move actions to reposition around the battlefield.

Since I'm really not used to psionic powers in general, I really don't know if they compensate the damage part (I'm pretty sure they more than compensate on utility stuff).


Also, since I'm already here, what do you guys think about Autohypnosys? Psyren's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234327-3-5-Thinking-on-your-Feet-The-Psychic-Rogue-Handbook) marks it as extremely useful, but it seems ok at best, being able to emulate two relatively low level spells (remove fear and delay/neutralize poison) at the cost of skill points and having to roll the dice.

psyrog is a great class, you should definitely play one to see if it meshes with your playstyle and if you have fun.

if you want "dpr" then play an ubercharger or mailman. psyrogues are skulks, they're good for utility/skills/powers, etc.

how on earth is it more mad than a normal rogue? you can safely prioritize int over all else because that's where your powers come from.

lack of penetrating strike kind of sucks, but truedeath and demolotion crystals exist.

are you implying normal rogues don't have access to penetrating strike?

yes, psionic powers compensate on damage if that's what you're worried about. like normal rogue, you will also supplement your power list with upd/umd.

autohypnosis is amazing. put ranks in it forever. since you're a rogue, you'll be taking craven, so this helps mitigate that in addition to its other benefits.

you are implying those two functions aren't useful, which isn't true, but even setting that aside, autohypnosis allows you to stabilize on your own if you don't have healing magic and your friends can't give you potions. if you use this once, it's paid itself off, and you're gonna use it a lot more than once.

[heavyfuel]

psyrog is a great class, you should definitely play one to see if it meshes with your playstyle and if you have fun.

if you want "dpr" then play an ubercharger or mailman. psyrogues are skulks, they're good for utility/skills/powers, etc.

how on earth is it more mad than a normal rogue? you can safely prioritize int over all else because that's where your powers come from.

lack of penetrating strike kind of sucks, but truedeath and demolotion crystals exist.

are you implying normal rogues don't have access to penetrating strike?

yes, psionic powers compensate on damage if that's what you're worried about. like normal rogue, you will also supplement your power list with upd/umd.

autohypnosis is amazing. put ranks in it forever. since you're a rogue, you'll be taking craven, so this helps mitigate that in addition to its other benefits.

you are implying those two functions aren't useful, which isn't true, but even setting that aside, autohypnosis allows you to stabilize on your own if you don't have healing magic and your friends can't give you potions. if you use this once, it's paid itself off, and you're gonna use it a lot more than once.

I don't necessarily want massive DPR on par with uberchargers and tier 2 blasters, but, you know, enough to be relevant in combat.

They still need Dex for rogue stuff, Con to survive with a d6 and low fort (Vigor power helps, but only lasts for a few minutes), and now they also need high Int for powers and PP. Not that normal rogues don't want high Int, but they don't need it.

No, I wasn't implying that they don't get it. It was just a reminder that at least normal rogue has a way to deal with these creatures.

They are useful, just maybe no so much. Like I said, these are 2 relatively low level spells and maybe it's the DMs I have, but I have to worry about either of them maybe once every 4 sessions. As for stabilizing, I'm pretty sure every game I played in the last 5 years or so had someone with Draconic Vigor Aura, so that's not usually a problem :smallbiggrin:. I just worry about spending precious skill points on it.

[Psyren]

Thanks for plugging my old guide. Some responses:

1) Psyrogues benefit even more from Craven than regular rogues do because they can Empty Mind in response to a fear effect. In addition, unlike regular rogues, they can more easily get high-damaging touch attacks (e.g a Xd6 crystal shard/energy ray) to use as accurate SA vectors, or a level-appropriate flanking buddy (Astral Construct) - so they are much more reliable at getting off big damage sneak attacks than regular rogues are. I would say these factors easily compensate for the reduced SA progression, which only comes down to 3d6 less over their entire career anyway.

2) At lower levels when your PP are more scarce, your SA damage will be equivalent to or only slightly behind a regular rogue's anyway, but you will also have much more utility with efficient tricks like Entangling Ectoplasm, Compression, and Control Light. Rogues have to rely on WBL to duplicate stuff like that - the same WBL you get, but that you can now allocate to better things.

3) How do you define "High Int?" 14 at chargen is fine. Vigor lets you get by with lower Con easily as well. Dex and Int should be your primary attributes, and you can easily dump Str and/or Cha. You can also get by with a lower Wisdom than regular rogues can (see above.)

4) Lastly, while I do highly recommend a psicrystal, psionic and especially metapsionic feats aren't necessary at all. Certainly you'll want Hidden Talent or Expanded Knowledge for an Astral Construct, but the sheer amount of utility you get from that one power dwarfs any single feat a rogue could ever pick up by a wide margin. If psyrogues are feat-intensive, it's because there are so many good options for them, which seems to me to be a good place for a class to be in (particularly when compared to a normal rogue.) Psicrystals also provide stellar utility and are thus also worth the feat.

[Karl Aegis]

So the challenge is to build a 15th level Psychic Rogue that can deal 253 damage to a target with 29 AC (8 Touch, 29 Flat-Footed) in a single round in favorable conditions with at least a 40% chance of success. Have at it.

[Venger]

So the challenge is to build a 15th level Psychic Rogue that can deal 253 damage to a target with 29 AC (8 Touch, 29 Flat-Footed) in a single round in favorable conditions with at least a 40% chance of success. Have at it.

ek or upd telekinetic thrust. done.

[heavyfuel]

Thanks for plugging my old guide. Some responses:

1) Psyrogues benefit even more from Craven than regular rogues do because they can Empty Mind in response to a fear effect. In addition, unlike regular rogues, they can more easily get high-damaging touch attacks (e.g a Xd6 crystal shard/energy ray) to use as accurate SA vectors, or a level-appropriate flanking buddy (Astral Construct) - so they are much more reliable at getting off big damage sneak attacks than regular rogues are. I would say these factors easily compensate for the reduced SA progression, which only comes down to 3d6 less over their entire career anyway.

2) At lower levels when your PP are more scarce, your SA damage will be equivalent to or only slightly behind a regular rogue's anyway, but you will also have much more utility with efficient tricks like Entangling Ectoplasm, Compression, and Control Light. Rogues have to rely on WBL to duplicate stuff like that - the same WBL you get, but that you can now allocate to better things.

3) How do you define "High Int?" 14 at chargen is fine. Vigor lets you get by with lower Con easily as well. Dex and Int should be your primary attributes, and you can easily dump Str and/or Cha. You can also get by with a lower Wisdom than regular rogues can (see above.)

4) Lastly, while I do highly recommend a psicrystal, psionic and especially metapsionic feats aren't necessary at all. Certainly you'll want Hidden Talent or Expanded Knowledge for an Astral Construct, but the sheer amount of utility you get from that one power dwarfs any single feat a rogue could ever pick up by a wide margin. If psyrogues are feat-intensive, it's because there are so many good options for them, which seems to me to be a good place for a class to be in (particularly when compared to a normal rogue.) Psicrystals also provide stellar utility and are thus also worth the feat.

Hey, it's a good guide! :smallsmile:

1) While touch attacks are great, aren't they normally 1/round? They also don't allow the use of Demolition/Truedeath crystals.

2) Good point. WBL will definitely compensate.

3) I'd say 16+ Ability Score at char-gen is high. Having a 14 is decent. Though I understand that as a Rogue I should be trying to initiate combat on my own terms, is spending your standard action and a bunch of PP to use Vigor at the start of every combat really worth it?

4) I'm not arguing that having good feats to choose from is bad, I'm just saying it makes damage focused feats less appealing.


Also, can you weigh in on Autohypnosys?


So the challenge is to build a 15th level Psychic Rogue that can deal 253 damage to a target with 29 AC (8 Touch, 29 Flat-Footed) in a single round in favorable conditions. Have at it.

Not complaining but... where are you getting these figures from?

[Psyren]

1) While touch attacks are great, aren't they normally 1/round? They also don't allow the use of Demolition/Truedeath crystals.

Well now we're getting to the question of whether a 20d6+7d6 touch attack that ignores DR or ER beats 3-4 10d6 piercing regular attacks at reducing iteratives. You'll need a much more in-depth simulation to really parse that one out, so good luck.



2) Good point. WBL will definitely compensate.

More importantly, they both get WBL, but a bunch of the rogue's gets spent ahead of time on stuff the psyrogue can do natively, like shrink, or read minds, or having a halfway decent will save.



3) I'd say 16+ Ability Score at char-gen is high. Having a 14 is decent. Though I understand that as a Rogue I should be trying to initiate combat on my own terms, is spending your standard action and a bunch of PP to use Vigor at the start of every combat really worth it?

"Initiate combat on your own terms" means you can do that stuff right before the fight actually starts. Remember, psionics are silent and suppressing your displays is easy.



4) I'm not arguing that having good feats to choose from is bad, I'm just saying it makes damage focused feats less appealing.

Do you mean ITWF and GTWF here? Because those are largely traps anyway.



Also, can you weigh in on Autohypnosys?

The psion handbook I referenced talks about it. The short version is that it's nice to have but you shouldn't feel the need to max it out, it's more of a utility thing.

[Karl Aegis]

Traditionally, a 20th level rogue build would test itself against a Great Wyrm Red Dragon to see if it could kill it in one turn. So, the 15th level Psychic Rogue would test itself against a CR 15 Dragon like a brass dragon or a red dragon. I seems more fitting than fighting something with a grotesquely huge number of hit points like a battle briar, battle titan or eldritch giant or something with way too little hit points like a trumpet archon or an ak'chazar rakshasa.

[heavyfuel]

Well now we're getting to the question of whether a 20d6+7d6 touch attack that ignores DR or ER beats 3-4 10d6 piercing regular attacks at reducing iteratives. You'll need a much more in-depth simulation to really parse that one out, so good luck.

More importantly, they both get WBL, but a bunch of the rogue's gets spent ahead of time on stuff the psyrogue can do natively, like shrink, or read minds, or having a halfway decent will save.

"Initiate combat on your own terms" means you can do that stuff right before the fight actually starts. Remember, psionics are silent and suppressing your displays is easy.

Do you mean ITWF and GTWF here? Because those are largely traps anyway.

The psion handbook I referenced talks about it. The short version is that it's nice to have but you shouldn't feel the need to max it out, it's more of a utility thing.

20d6 is if I spend a bunch of PP (usually 20). From your experience, is the amount of PP a psyrogue has enough for the standard 4 encounters per day? Even if you're somewhat reckless with nova-ing?

That's what I meant by "initiating combat on my own terms". But again, is the PP per day enough? Psyrogues get very few of them, even fewer than Psywar.

If I'm using PP to buff, and using PP to sneak, and using PP to nova, I imagine I would run out of it very fast.

ITWF and GTWF were some of the possibilities, but also Shadowblade and Snap Kick (if I could qualify, maybe with a SS dip)

[Psyren]

Traditionally, a 20th level rogue build would test itself against a Great Wyrm Red Dragon to see if it could kill it in one turn. So, the 15th level Psychic Rogue would test itself against a CR 15 Dragon like a brass dragon or a red dragon. I seems more fitting than fighting something with a grotesquely huge number of hit points like a battle briar, battle titan or eldritch giant or something with way too little hit points like a trumpet archon or an ak'chazar rakshasa.

Could you link to where the standard rogue was shown to do that? The Psyrogue would likely employ many of the same tactics/items, so it would help a lot to not to have to reinvent the wheel.



*snip*

If I'm using PP to buff, and using PP to sneak, and using PP to nova, I imagine I would run out of it very fast.

(1) Why are you using PP to sneak?
(2) It's more that you have the option to throw a shard when needed than that is your primary damage method.
(3) That WBL you're saving with your innate tricks is going to stuff like dorjes, cognizance crystals etc.



ITWF and GTWF were some of the possibilities, but also Shadowblade and Snap Kick (if I could qualify, maybe with a SS dip)

I'd definitely rather have an Astral Construct than any of those, and its DPR would be added to my own.

[heavyfuel]

(1) Why are you using PP to sneak?
(2) It's more that you have the option to throw a shard when needed than that is your primary damage method.
(3) That WBL you're saving with your innate tricks is going to stuff like dorjes, cognizance crystals etc.



I'd definitely rather have an Astral Construct than any of those, and its DPR would be added to my own.

1) I don't know, you tell me.



Sadly, we’re unlikely to be able to put 18s or even 16s in everything; however, a psyrogue’s mental powers can easily compensate for lower scores in other areas. For instance, you don’t need to be a perfectly stealthy sneak if you can shrink yourself, switch off the lights and/or deaden your footfalls with a thought.

I said I'm not used to psionics, so I'm going by what you said. :smallbiggrin:

2+3) Fair enough

@Astral Construct: Sure, but doesn't that feel more like playing a gimped summoner than an actual sneaky dude? At least in combat.

[Psyren]

1) I don't know, you tell me.



I said I'm not used to psionics, so I'm going by what you said. :smallbiggrin:

That's to get you through specific situations, not something you're meant to be spamming every single time. For example, you don't need to "turn the lights" off if the area you're sneaking through is already dark. Make sense? :smalltongue:


@Astral Construct: Sure, but doesn't that feel more like playing a gimped summoner than an actual sneaky dude? At least in combat.

As above, I think you're confusing a "toolkit" with a "crutch." You're a rogue with some innate tricks, not a psion who grew up in an alley.

[Karl Aegis]

Could you link to where the standard rogue was shown to do that? The Psyrogue would likely employ many of the same tactics/items, so it would help a lot to not to have to reinvent the wheel.



http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245177-Fixing-SKR-s-Feat-Point-System


Posts 19-23 of this thread is what I was thinking of.
Post 30 details the flaws of the build.

Guess I was remembering things wrong because I hadn't seen the thread in over half a decade.

The main points seem to be Offensive Precognition, Wand of Divine Power, Bracers that give the Pouncing Charge maneuver, Contingency + Greater Heroism from scrolls, Boots of Speed, +1 Eager Transmuting Collision Dagger of Deadly Precision, a casting of Greater Magic Weapon, Weapon Finesse and Craven.

[heavyfuel]

That's to get you through specific situations, not something you're meant to be spamming every single time. For example, you don't need to "turn the lights" off if the area you're sneaking through is already dark. Make sense? :smalltongue:



As above, I think you're confusing a "toolkit" with a "crutch." You're a rogue with some innate tricks, not a psion who grew up in an alley.

It does.

But with so much to do with the toolkit, don't you run out of tools (aka, PP)?

[Karl Aegis]

+11 BAB +5 Insight +4 Weapon +1 Haste + 7 Dex +4 2 Morale +1 Competence +2 Charge = +33/+33/+28/+23

1d4 + +5d6 +24 (Average 44) Critical Hit Average 53

Target AC: 29
Attack 1, 2, 3
Critical Hit 10% Confirm 95% Average 53
Hit 85% Average 44
Miss 5% Average 0
5.035 + 37.4 + 0

Attack 4
Critical Hit 10% Confirm 75% Average 53
Hit 65% Average 44
Miss 25% Average 0
3.975 + 28.6 + 0

159.88 average full attack pounce

I got 159.88 damage from an average full attack pounce with just a +4 dagger of collision, Boots of Speed, Weapon Finesse, Craven, Offensive Precognition, Greater Heroism and an Ioun Stone. That... isn't bad. Might get higher with more than 10 strength. That's 63.2% of the dragon down.

Edited for Greater Heroism not working and replaced with Heroism and a pounce. Catfolk Pounce if need be. Probably Psionic Lion's Charge.

[Psyren]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245177-Fixing-SKR-s-Feat-Point-System


Posts 19-23 of this thread is what I was thinking of.
Post 30 details the flaws of the build.

Guess I was remembering things wrong because I hadn't seen the thread in over half a decade.

The main points seem to be Offensive Precognition, Wand of Divine Power, Bracers that give the Pouncing Charge maneuver, Contingency + Greater Heroism from scrolls, Boots of Speed, +1 Eager Transmuting Collision Dagger of Deadly Precision, a casting of Greater Magic Weapon, Weapon Finesse and Craven.

As you noted, Curmudgeon pointed out that the build pretty much doesn't work at all so I can't really use that as a baseline.


It does.

But with so much to do with the toolkit, don't you run out of tools (aka, PP)?

The idea is that you're not doing all of that stuff all of the time. For example, you whip out the Astral Construct when you have nobody else to flank with and no other form of concealment, or if you're just plain up against something that is immune to SA to begin with. If those constitute all of your encounters, you'd be fairly screwed as a regular rogue too.

[Tvtyrant]

Been thinking of rolling a Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) and was theorycrafting its build when I came across a relatively big problem.

From a pure theorycraft point of view, it seems the Psyrogue has a very very low Damage Per Round output. It has delayed SA progression; it's more MAD than the standard Rogue, which will mean a lower attack bonus; no Trap Sense to trade in for (Lightbringer) Penetrating Strike; and it's even more feat intensive than standard Rogue (psionic, metapsionic, and Psicrystral Affinity) so it's harder to squeeze in TWF.

And if we're being honest, even the standard Rogue's DPR is bad. What with half the creatures being immune to SA (and again, psyrogue doesn't get Penetrating Strike), about a few dozen spells blocking it, and extensive use of move actions to reposition around the battlefield.

Since I'm really not used to psionic powers in general, I really don't know if they compensate the damage part (I'm pretty sure they more than compensate on utility stuff).


Also, since I'm already here, what do you guys think about Autohypnosys? Psyren's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234327-3-5-Thinking-on-your-Feet-The-Psychic-Rogue-Handbook) marks it as extremely useful, but it seems ok at best, being able to emulate two relatively low level spells (remove fear and delay/neutralize poison) at the cost of skill points and having to roll the dice.

How low is low here? What benchmarks are being used?

For instance I could argue that 50 damage a round is appropriate at level 10 (1/4 a juvenile red dragon), while 200 would be game warping (it now takes 4+ CR appropriate creatures to challenge the party).

A level 20 character who is focused on damage dealing should do between 200 and 400 damage a round, but no more then 600 as then you are one shotting great wyrms.

Looking at the lower benchmarks the PR as a melee combatant isn't hitting it. They need some sort of volley attack or damage multiplyer to pull it off.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get Mind Cripple at level 11, and you'll easily take down a high hp target in one or two full attacks.

[heavyfuel]

How low is low here? What benchmarks are being used?

For instance I could argue that 50 damage a round is appropriate at level 10 (1/4 a juvenile red dragon), while 200 would be game warping (it now takes 4+ CR appropriate creatures to challenge the party).

A level 20 character who is focused on damage dealing should do between 200 and 400 damage a round, but no more then 600 as then you are one shotting great wyrms.

Looking at the lower benchmarks the PR as a melee combatant isn't hitting it. They need some sort of volley attack or damage multiplyer to pull it off.

That's a good question.

I'm currently playing in two games. One the party is lv 7, in the other we're lv 12. In the first game, the main damage dealer deals about 40 DPR, and in the second game the damage dealer deals about 180 DPR (though he did just reach a power spike).

Since the lv 7 character hasn't been as optimized as we usually do, and considering the psyrogue isn't supposed to be the DPR character in the first place, I'll say that's a good benchmark, 40 DPR by lv 7, a decent one would be 30 DPR by lv 7.

So sneak attack damage by lvl 7 should be 1d6+1 (weapon) + 3d6 (SA) + 7 (craven) = 22 average. Without spending any PP. Seems a little low. If I know Energy Ray and spend 3 PP (out of 25 total) I can raise by an extra 3d6+3, averaging at 35 DPR, which is ok, but I can only do it so many times a day.


Get Mind Cripple at level 11, and you'll easily take down a high hp target in one or two full attacks.

This is a very all or nothing ability though. If you don't deal enough Int damage to drop a foe before he's dead from HP damage, you wasted the ability's potential. Dropping someone to 0 Int after they're at 15 HP, is effectively only dealing 15 damage with the ability.

The standard Rogue's Crippling Strike 2 Str damage reduces creatures' attack and damage bonuses, but reducing Int doesn't usually have a similar effect. While most creatures have more Str than they have Int, Crippling Strike has an effect on top of the damage. Unless the creature has some Int based ability/class feature, this isn't the case for Mid Cripple.

It's still a good ability for the toolkit, but I'm not sure I'll take it over Skill Mastery

[Crichton]

That's a good question.

I'm currently playing in two games. One the party is lv 7, in the other we're lv 12. In the first game, the main damage dealer deals about 40 DPR, and in the second game the damage dealer deals about 180 DPR (though he did just reach a power spike).

Since the lv 7 character hasn't been as optimized as we usually do, and considering the psyrogue isn't supposed to be the DPR character in the first place, I'll say that's a good benchmark, 40 DPR by lv 7, a decent one would be 30 DPR by lv 7.

So sneak attack damage by lvl 7 should be 1d6+1 (weapon) + 3d6 (SA) + 7 (craven) = 22 average. Without spending any PP. Seems a little low. If I know Energy Ray and spend 3 PP (out of 25 total) I can raise by an extra 3d6+3, averaging at 35 DPR, which is ok, but I can only do it so many times a day.



I know you said you're a bit feat starved with this build, but given that you seem to be focusing your DPR calculations on sneak attack damage, consider that for a single additional feat (Two Weapon Fighting), you can effectively double your current output, putting you at 44 DPR (by your formula above). Rogues (even Psychic ones) really benefit from more attacks per round, over fewer, stronger attacks. The more attacks you can get per round, the more times you can apply your SA damage. It multiplies, rather than adds.


Find some ways to add more SA dice, and you increase it even more. Off the top of my head there's Deadly Precision weapons (2 different versions of that; one adds 2d6 for +2, one adds 1d6 for +1), there's a Swordsage dip (or Martial Stance feat) for Assassin's Stance (2d6), Rogue's Vest (1d6), dips into Spellthief and Sneak Attack Fighter for 1d6 each.

And if your DM is amenable to some light cheese, or is coercable, get them to allow you to use Crescent Knives (Dragon #275). They hit twice per attack, with 2 attack rolls(and all associated bonuses, including SA), so with those and TWF, you're looking at 4 attacks per full-attack round (88 DPR at your current damage formula).
If your DM is on the fence about them, point out that some weapons (the Scourge, from the same Dragon issue), allow THREE attacks per standard attack, so you aren't asking for too much by asking for the Crescents. :biggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

@Mindcripple it at least deals with animals instantly, and stacks with itself and other int damage. All dumb brutes are taken out instantly.

It is really too bad that Manticore Belt is a standard action, it would add a lot to a lurker type. Flight, good ranged attack, bonus to spot checks.

[heavyfuel]

I know you said you're a bit feat starved with this build, but given that you seem to be focusing your DPR calculations on sneak attack damage, consider that for a single additional feat (Two Weapon Fighting), you can effectively double your current output, putting you at 44 DPR (by your formula above). Rogues (even Psychic ones) really benefit from more attacks per round, over fewer, stronger attacks. The more attacks you can get per round, the more times you can apply your SA damage. It multiplies, rather than adds.


Find some ways to add more SA dice, and you increase it even more. Off the top of my head there's Deadly Precision weapons (2 different versions of that; one adds 2d6 for +2, one adds 1d6 for +1), there's a Swordsage dip (or Martial Stance feat) for Assassin's Stance (2d6), Rogue's Vest (1d6), dips into Spellthief and Sneak Attack Fighter for 1d6 each.

And if your DM is amenable to some light cheese, or is coercable, get them to allow you to use Crescent Knives (Dragon #275). They hit twice per attack, with 2 attack rolls(and all associated bonuses, including SA), so with those and TWF, you're looking at 4 attacks per full-attack round (88 DPR at your current damage formula).
If your DM is on the fence about them, point out that some weapons (the Scourge, from the same Dragon issue), allow THREE attacks per standard attack, so you aren't asking for too much by asking for the Crescents. :biggrin:

I need to work out how many feats i'll manage to spare, but if I'm dipping SS (not so good, since I lose ML) I might as well go with Snap Kick over twf.

Cheese is a no go. I wouldn't want it in a game I was DMing so I don't think it's fair to ask it from another DM.


@Mindcripple it at least deals with animals instantly, and stacks with itself and other int damage. All dumb brutes are taken out instantly.

It is really too bad that Manticore Belt is a standard action, it would add a lot to a lurker type. Flight, good ranged attack, bonus to spot checks.

Animals aren't very relevant at ecl 11, but it's still nice to one shot them.

Having it stack with othwr Int damage is nice. Is there a psionic equivalent of Ray of Stupidity?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Animals aren't very relevant at ecl 11, but it's still nice to one shot them.

Having it stack with othwr Int damage is nice. Is there a psionic equivalent of Ray of Stupidity?

Lurk in Complete Psionic can spend a swift action to augment his next attack to deal 2 (+1 per 2 pp spent) Int damage, starting at level 5. If you're going that route I'd say just go Lurk 5/ Psychic Assassin 5+ instead. At 10th level with a +6 BAB, TWF and Gloves of the Balanced Hand, that's four attacks for 8 Int damage from Mind Cripple, plus another 7 Int damage from the Lurk's augmented attack added to one of those. Dealing 15 Int damage in a single full attack, or 9 Int damage as a standard action or in the surprise round, is actually pretty good.

[Crichton]

I need to work out how many feats i'll manage to spare, but if I'm dipping SS (not so good, since I lose ML) I might as well go with Snap Kick over twf.


Do you have Improved Unarmed Strike to meet the prerequisite for Snap Kick? If so, definitely go for it, since it's an extra attack, even on Standard Attacks. Also, no reason you can't take Snap Kick anyway, even if you don't dip SS. If you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike, TWF for the win. Or both. With Sneak Attack, the more attacks you can get in, the more your damage per round multiplies.


Cheese is a no go. I wouldn't want it in a game I was DMing so I don't think it's fair to ask it from another DM.


That's a call for you and your DM. You'd have to get the exotic weapon proficiency anyway.

Also, don't forget to try to get access to haste or a speed weapon. That's yet another attack per round.
While you're at it, take a good long look at Person Man's guide to getting extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127463-3-X-Extra-attacks-natural-attacks-AoO)
I'm sure you'll find something there that can get you even more attacks per round.


I find myself typing "attacks per round" a lot. That's because it's the most effective way to get you the increase in DPR you're looking for. :smile:

[Tvtyrant]

For pure damage you eventually want Skin of the Proteus for a mountain of natural attacks to key SA off of. At your level though that isn't an option, although if you are an aberration (elan) a wand of alter self will net you Grell, which has 10 attacks to key SA off of.

[Crichton]

For pure damage you eventually want Skin of the Proteus for a mountain of natural attacks to key SA off of. At your level though that isn't an option, although if you are an aberration (elan) a wand of alter self will net you Grell, which has 10 attacks to key SA off of.

Now THAT's some extra attacks to multiply that SA damage! Synads are also Aberrations, and are commonly used for psionic characters. So there's two race options. Beautiful!

[Tvtyrant]

Now THAT's some extra attacks to multiply that SA damage! Synads are also Aberrations, and are commonly used for psionic characters. So there's two race options. Beautiful!

The synergy between shapeshifting and psionics is likewise strong, as you can manifest uninhibited in any form. Wands of Alter Self are cheap too, and the duration is long enough you don't need to boost the CL.

[heavyfuel]

Three new questions about Psyrogue

1 - When manifesting Energy Ray, does the line "A ray of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die." include Sneak Attack dice? Regardless of a "yes" or a "no" answer, try to provide rules text to support it.

2 - Regarding the Split Psionic Ray feat. How does it interact with Sneak Attack? I assume I deal half spell damage plus full SA damage to the first creature and half energy damage to the second with no SA damage. I could be wrong.

3 - Is there a way (besides a dorje) to gain access to Energy Ray before level 6? Psyrogue qualifies for Expanded Knowledge at lv 5, but only receives a feat at 6.

Thanks!

[Psyren]

1 - When manifesting Energy Ray, does the line "A ray of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die." include Sneak Attack dice? Regardless of a "yes" or a "no" answer, try to provide rules text to support it.

For this, there aren't any - check with your GM.



2 - Regarding the Split Psionic Ray feat. How does it interact with Sneak Attack? I assume I deal half spell damage plus full SA damage to the first creature and half energy damage to the second with no SA damage. I could be wrong.

Per Rules Compendium 42, it would only get added to one ray unless the attack was a full-round action.



3 - Is there a way (besides a dorje) to gain access to Energy Ray before level 6? Psyrogue qualifies for Expanded Knowledge at lv 5, but only receives a feat at 6.


Hidden Talent feat (XPH, not SRD) at level 1.

[Troacctid]

Three new questions about Psyrogue

1 - When manifesting Energy Ray, does the line "A ray of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die." include Sneak Attack dice? Regardless of a "yes" or a "no" answer, try to provide rules text to support it.

2 - Regarding the Split Psionic Ray feat. How does it interact with Sneak Attack? I assume I deal half spell damage plus full SA damage to the first creature and half energy damage to the second with no SA damage. I could be wrong.

3 - Is there a way (besides a dorje) to gain access to Energy Ray before level 6? Psyrogue qualifies for Expanded Knowledge at lv 5, but only receives a feat at 6.

Thanks!

2. Your assumption is correct. When a spell or spell-like ability includes multiple attacks in the same round, any bonus damage is applied only to the first of those attacks (regardless of whether that attack hits or misses), as per Complete Arcane.

3. Hidden Talent, if your game uses it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Split Psionic Ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#splitPsionicRay)
"If the ray deals damage, each target takes as much damage as a single target would take."

You'll deal full energy damage to both targets, but sneak attack to only one target as already mentioned.