Sleet Storm vs. Wind Wall

[Wisefool]

If you had to pick one that you could cast 1/day, which would you pick?

Both are concentration spells that last up to a minute that require an action to cast. Sleet Storm has a slightly longer range at 150ft to Wind Wall's 120ft. The big difference is the size of each spell. If you were to shape WW's 50ft long, 15ft high wall into a circle, the enclosed area would be 200ft w/ a diameter of 16ft. SS covers an area 5000ft in size w/ a diameter of 80ft. It would take 5 simultaneous castings of WW to equal the size of SS.

The other difference is what happens inside the area. SS turns the area into heavily obscured difficult terrain, forcing creatures to make saves or be knocked prone. WW prevents projectiles from passing through and does 3d8 damage on a failed save to pass through. So attacking targets within is a wash. You are either delaying the enemy with SS or forcing them to decide to take damage or wait out the WW. SS wins out here since a determined foe will take the hit from WW to reach you, while they do not have that choice w/ SS. For retreating, Sleet Storm is tops.

The other big difference is their versatility or lack thereof. SS is always 20ft high, 80ft wide and while it isn't RAW, I would argue the same restriction on Call Lightning applies to Sleet Storm as well. If you don't have that massive space to work with (i.e. indoors) then forget about casting SS. Wind Wall, conversely, only has limits- up to 50ft long, 15ft high. Trap enemies in a circle, sure. Close off a door with it, yup. Herd foes with a 20ft long wind corridor, absolutely. Indoors, outdoors, Wind Wall is there when you need it.

[ImproperJustice]

A few thoughts:

What is the makeup of your other party members. Once you know your role in relationto theirs you can make an informed choice.

I would slightly favor Sleet Storm as it is proactive and the more I play, the less use I see for reactive spells vs. those that force the enemy to change what they are doing.

[Merudo]

WW prevents projectiles from passing through and does 3d8 damage on a failed save to pass through.


WW only does damage when you spawn the Wall.

[Wisefool]

The fact it only does damage upon creation pretty much defeats the purpose of the wall for me. It is only 1 foot thick, so if I created the wind wall in an enemies space, they would just step forward and be past the wall. But now the spell forces me to do that, since it doesn't impart damage after creation.

My party makeup is mostly martials. The only full caster is a moon druid who prefers fighting in animal form than spellcasting. With that in mind, I see Sleet Storm more of a hinderance. Combat would be difficult whether inside or out of the area, so it will primarily be used for retreats or dividing the enemies in half. Both are super situational and the outdoors req makes the spell even more so.

I was trying to talk myself out of taking Dispel Magic instead. I have no love for Sleet Storm, but thought Wind Wall could have some nice RP potential in addition to combat utility.

[Coffee_Dragon]

You slapped an extra requirement onto Sleet Storm, but not on Wind Wall for some reason, then complain Sleet Storm just doesn't measure up? Why is this of interest to anyone?

[Sage Tellah]

Probably the most common use I find for Wind Wall is to protect ones party from ranged weapon attacks. Place it next to your party, have your own archers step through, shoot, and step back on their turn. When the return volley comes, it gets blown wildly off course. Yeah, it's situational, but powerful within such a situation.

[Deathtongue]

My choice would depend on the kind of environment the party was fighting in. In more confined spaces (which will include 95% of dungeons you come across in APs and hardcovers) Sleet Storm is very, very difficult to use.

That said, Sleet Storm is VERY powerful when used outdoors, especially against low-DEX enemies, and the 5% of dungeons where it is big enough to be used. My Bladesinger and the White Dragon Sorcerer had Sleet Storm for Storm King's Thunder and for Against the Giants. It's devastating when it's in its element.

Wind Wall's okay. The times when it's a MVP spell aren't zero, but they come up less frequently. There just aren't many threatening creatures in the MM or Volos who attack with small projectiles. That said, if you have a more permissive DM, you can use the whole 'wall of wind' to do some cool stuff. I had a DM that let a party member create a Wind Wall in a Tier 3 AP so the party could use it to fly upwards after I suggested ripping open some sacks to make parachutes.

It's really a shame Wind Wall doesn't push, that would make it much more useful.

[Citan]

I love both. If I had to choose only one though, I'd pick the one that is compensating the most the other options party has.

For example, if among the party people can unleash Fog Cloud, Wall spells and other ways to make ranged attack very difficult against us, I'll definitely pick Sleet Storm.

If nobody has such spell and/or a) party is mainly using magic for ranged attacks or b) I know we'll face often archers or enemies using gases, then I'll grab Wind Wall.

If overall for the party none is deemed "necessary", I'll probably pick Sleet Storm: harder to use (because obscured area also means your allies would have trouble attacking creatures inside) but whenever you just want to heavily reduce an enemy threat in a "divide and conquer" mode ("stay there, we'll deal with you later") the fact that SS is equally a pain for melee (difficult terrain + prone), ranged (obscuration) and casters (concentration save every round) makes it one of the best control spells of the whole game. ;)

Of course, if your goal would rather be to block enemy attacks without hindering yours, then Sleet Storm would end as annoying as a Darkness. Wind Wall is much much better in that regard. ^^

[Merudo]

Fog Cloud, [...] and other ways to make ranged attack very difficult against us

Fog Cloud only protects against spells that require seeing your target.

All other ranged attacks are not made any more difficult, and in fact attacks against the party using a weapon’s long range are made more easily.

[Citan]

Fog Cloud only protects against spells that require seeing your target.

All other ranged attacks are not made any more difficult, and in fact attacks against the party using a weapon’s long range are made more easily.
You so not know what you are talking about sometimes, it's kinda funny to read.

I'll give a quick reminder to you: Fog Cloud makes its area of effect "heavily obscured".
Per the errata, "A heavily obscured area doesn’t blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it." Which is, for a creature *inside* the cloud, basically the whole world past maybe the sword's tip if DM is really nice.
And blinded condition implies that "Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage."

So of course if one was stupid enough to cast Fog Cloud directly upon his own group*, you would find it extremely lackluster because he would blind himself and allies too so indeed the "provides advantage on attacks against blinded" would offset the "long-range penalty disadvantage".
* There are some cases in which this can actually be a good tactic, but those tend to be fairly rare, considering the resource cost (action and concentration): as a pure static defense, a Wind Wall (fast but expensive) or several Mold Earth (cheap but team effort) would be better. To cover a run away, Darkness will be leagues better.

However, it's great to use...
- directly upon enemies in small areas, or upcast in larger area (although Sleet Storm would probably be better generally as a 3rd level spell comparison thanks to also making difficult terrain), to effectively impose disadvantage on large groups of ranged attackers unless/until they move out of it, which may prove sometimes difficult or dangerous (spells making difficult terrain, people readying actions to pick off the first one to go out etc).
- between both groups (but close to yours) to create an obscurement area that will facilitate runaway, or cover, or hiding, or preparing traps/long concentration spells, or forcing people to close in, or any mix between that, basically "buying time".

Or occasionally...
- To help a melee character to hit one last time then run away without OA (of course it also needs you to Ready so it's a costly action unless your pal is fine with attacking at disadvantage or is otherwise unimpaired by heavily obscuration).
- To level the field against a creature that tend to impose disadvantage on your attacks anyways or abuse Dodge to get extremely hard to hit.
- To cover a full run away, if only for one round, because you just don't have anything *that* better to use your concentration and action anyways.
And probably a few other cases I forgot/couldn't think about, possibly overly niche...
It does uses concentration compared to Blindness, but it also means auto-success in applying the blinded condition "right now that you need it" unless of course the target has special senses... And you can affect several creatures at once, possibly for at least 2 rounds if they were too far to cross it and past in one turn.

And all that is only if your DM is playing strict RAW.
Some sensible DM could push a bit the reasoning and allow you to become automatically hidden from the point of view of enemy archers under certain conditions, like past a certain distance (provided you don't actively make noise or there are other active noise sources that prevent ear-tracking) or if you're under the wind to prevent smell-tracking for example, because to them and/or players it feels a reasonable, immersion-keeping ruling.
Sure it's houserule per PHB, but really not far-stretched considering how clunky the whole "hiding rules" can be "as written" in this game.

[Merudo]

You so not know what you are talking about sometimes, it's kinda funny to read.


Are you always like this? Insulting or belittling people who disagree with you? I'm not impressed with your behavior, Citan.

In any case, it is trivial to show that you are factually wrong on this.


Per the errata, "A heavily obscured area doesn’t blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it." Which is, for a creature *inside* the cloud, basically the whole world past maybe the sword's tip if DM is really nice.
And blinded condition implies that "Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage."


Exactly.

Creatures in the cloud can't see anything - so creatures inside the cloud have attack rolls with disadvantage (this we agree on).

However, don't understand the full effect of fog cloud. A party outside the cloud can't see creatures in the fog cloud, so roll against the party from creatures in the fog have advantage.

When both advantage and disadvantage are present, attacks against the party are done normally. So Fog Cloud doesn't make you any harder to be hit (unless the ranged enemies previously had advantage to hit you).

If the ranged enemies previously had disadvantage to hit you, such as from the "long-range penalty disadvantage", they will hit you more easily once they are covered by the Fog Cloud.



So of course if one was stupid enough to cast Fog Cloud directly upon his own group*, you would find it extremely lackluster because he would blind himself and allies too so indeed the "provides advantage on attacks against blinded" would offset the "long-range penalty disadvantage".


Mechanically speaking, whether the Fog Cloud is cast directly on your party or is cast on the enemies makes absolutely no difference for long range attacks.

Either way, the party can't see the enemies, and the enemies can't see the party.




Or occasionally...
- To help a melee character to hit one last time then run away without OA (of course it also needs you to Ready so it's a costly action unless your pal is fine with attacking at disadvantage or is otherwise unimpaired by heavily obscuration).
- To level the field against a creature that tend to impose disadvantage on your attacks anyways or abuse Dodge to get extremely hard to hit.
- To cover a full run away, if only for one round, because you just don't have anything *that* better to use your concentration and action anyways.


None of these points have any bearing on my comment - Fog Cloud does not help you against ranged attacks, except spells and abilities that require sight.

[Citan]

Are you always like this? Insulting or belittling people who disagree with you? I'm not impressed with your behavior, Citan.

In any case, it is trivial to show that you are factually wrong on this.



Exactly.

Creatures in the cloud can't see anything - so creatures inside the cloud have attack rolls with disadvantage (this we agree on).

However, don't understand the full effect of fog cloud. A party outside the cloud can't see creatures in the fog cloud, so roll against the party from creatures in the fog have advantage.

When both advantage and disadvantage are present, attacks against the party are done normally. So Fog Cloud doesn't make you any harder to be hit (unless the ranged enemies previously had advantage to hit you).

If the ranged enemies previously had disadvantage to hit you, such as from the "long-range penalty disadvantage", they will hit you more easily once they are covered by the Fog Cloud.



Mechanically speaking, whether the Fog Cloud is cast directly on your party or is cast on the enemies makes absolutely no difference for long range attacks.

Either way, the party can't see the enemies, and the enemies can't see the party.




None of these points have any bearing on my comment - Fog Cloud does not help you against ranged attacks, except spells and abilities that require sight.
I agree I was very impolite, and I apologize for that, but people who just counter-argument without fully thinking about it tend to get on my nerves, when it's repeatedly.

Admitting that you play with a DM who follows that strictly the RAW, which is indeed correct but horrendously stupid (except AL I don't know any one in my friends that would rule that way honestly), then you just have to spend one action or bonus action on Hiding, and you're now impervious to attacks until you decide to show yourself for whatever reason, unless you stay immobile of course since enemies could always decide to attack the last known position just in case. Otherwise, they'll need dumb luck to actually aim where you are.

Of course if you just cast a spell immediately after or pop out of the cloud to attack you would lose the benefit. But for people that can act and hide in the same turn (*cough* Rogue & Quicken Sorcerer *cough*) or in situations in which you wanted to go low profile in the first place (trap, runaway, infiltration) it's not a big deal at all.

It's really just basics. That's why I lashed out, because I expect people to keep basic tactics in mind when discussing a feature.

But I readily admit it was completely overreacted and unnecessary, I was heated by another topic entirely when I wrote here. And I should have stated myself the RAW caveat and Hide solution for those who play strict Errataed RAW (my condolences to those people XD). So please accept my apologies for that.