Adamantine Armor: Undervalued?

[strangebloke]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424243-Sane-Magic-Item-Prices

I use the above link in my campaigns when I determine the value for buying/selling magic items.

However, I can't help but notice that the adamantine plate seems a little undervalued. It's the second-cheapest combat item listed, slightly hedging out the vicious weapon, and is a third the cost of a +1 shield or armor, which are categorized as 'game-changing.' I've seen this opinion elsewhere on the internet as well, that it's not that great an item. In default rules, It's an uncommon item like the +1 shield as opposed to a rare item like the +1 armor. Most DMs I've encountered will make a +1 Adamantine armor to be cheaper than a +2.

I think Adamantine armor is great, and you're all idiots./s

Let me walk through my chain of thought here: lets say the monster hits you on an 11 or higher. So a fifty percent chance of a hit and a 5 percent chance of a crit. A crit deals double damage, pretty much, since most monster damage is dice-based. So if you get rid of the crit damage, it's roughly the same as a +1 to your armor or shield.

Expected Damage (no magic items):(Attack Damage)*0.5 + 0.8*Attack Damage*(0.05) = (attack damage*.54)

Expected Damage (adamantine armor):(Attack Damage)*0.5 + 0.8*Attack Damage*(0.00) = (attack damage*.50)

Expected Damage (+1 armor):(Attack Damage)*0.45 + 0.8*Attack Damage*(0.05) = (attack damage*.49)

And the thing is, if you account for an enemy who has advantage, Adamantine armor is even better than a +1.

Expected Damage (no magic items):(Attack Damage)*0.75 + 0.8*Attack Damage*(0.10) = (attack damage*.83)

Expected Damage (adamantine armor):(Attack Damage)*0.75 + 0.8*Attack Damage*(0.00) = (attack damage*.75)

Expected Damage (+1 armor):(Attack Damage)*0.70 + 0.8*Attack Damage*(0.10) = (attack damage*.78)

This seems like a really cheap way to boost your effective AC, and like people are really undeveraluing it.

[the secret fire]

Of course, it becomes much less valuable if you are being attacked at disadvantage, where a crit only occurs once every 400 attacks.

For a barbarian who will be reckless attacking all the time, however, it is priceless.

[strangebloke]

Of course, it becomes much less valuable if you are being attacked at disadvantage, where a crit only occurs once every 400 attacks.

For a barbarian who will be reckless attacking all the time, however, it is priceless.

I mean, lots of people use flanking rules, too, which makes advantage more likely than not.

[Grear Bylls]

You're right. I'm sorry that I'm an idiot for disagreeing with you. It helps your argument a lot

[strangebloke]

You're right. I'm sorry that I'm an idiot for disagreeing with you. It helps your argument a lot

Thanks, I thought it was one of my more persuasive points available to me.

[Pex]

Where did that price come from? I remember reading that Adamantine costs 1,000 gp added to the cost of the armor. Adamantine Plate Mail would cost 2,500 gp. Am I in error? How much is Adamantine Plate Mail?

[Unoriginal]

I use the above link in my campaigns when I determine the value for buying/selling magic items.

However, I can't help but notice that the adamantine plate seems a little undervalued


Maybe because those so-called "sane" magic item values aren't, and that it's just arbitrary ?



I think Adamantine armor is great, and you're all idiots./s

You're the one using those prices. I'm certainly not the one who gave you the idea (as far as you can prove it, anyway).

[strangebloke]

Where did that price come from? I remember reading that Adamantine costs 1,000 gp added to the cost of the armor. Adamantine Plate Mail would cost 2,500 gp. Am I in error? How much is Adamantine Plate Mail?

The numbers come from an arbitrary reshuffling of prices that I use that I think is marginally more fair than default. I think the prices that you're thinking of come from 3.5 but I could be wrong.

Both the arbitrary rules I use and the default rules underprice it, especially if you're allowed to enchant Adamantine armor with +1, +2, etc.


Maybe because those so-called "sane" magic item values aren't, and that it's just arbitrary ?

You're the one using those prices. I'm certainly not the one who gave you the idea (as far as you can prove it, anyway).

Well, it's an opinion I've seen floated a fair amount as well. Obviously I can't speak to your specific opinion, It's just something I've seen said. The sarcastic bit was a bit non-serious. I expect that many people think it's great, and I expect that my 'proof' is not really that at all and that soon enough I'll have someone coming in here with a good explanation.

For the record, the default rules do makes it cheaper than the +1 version of the same, by way of making it less common. And, because it's a reinforcement and not an additional layer of enchantment, most DMs I've run with have allowed it to be enchanted with a +1 on top of the adamantine reinforcement, effectively giving a very rare armor for the cost of an uncommon and a rare item.

[GlenSmash!]

I mean, lots of people use flanking rules, too, which makes advantage more likely than not.

Do lots of people use the flanking rules?

I find them to be terrible as they make things like the Wolf Totem Level 3 ability and Pact Tactics useless.

[KorvinStarmast]

My champion has been twice knocked out of fights by a single critical hit from a giant. (Granted, he'd taken some damage up to that point) I think he'd like to have his Half Plate be Admantine.

The other time he got waxed hard was two Stone Giants hitting him for crits in the same turn.
ouch.
We had another short battle with a fire giant where he scored two crits. One on me and one on our barbarian. We were both still standing, but damn did my HP drop in a hurry.

[strangebloke]

Do lots of people use the flanking rules?

I find them to be terrible as they make things like the Wolf Totem Level 3 ability and Pact Tactics useless.

I mean, I don't have any survey data. Just my impression.

But yeah, I agree they aren't great. They make getting advantage easier, if not quite as easy as pack tactics. Certainly, it boosts the trend of "lots of weak creatures overwhelm a big one." The bigger problem is that due to how AoOs work, maneuvring into flanking is pretty trivial most of the time.


My champion has been twice knocked out of fights by a single critical hit from a giant. (Granted, he'd taken some damage up to that point) I think he'd like to have his Half Plate be Admantine.

The other time he got waxed hard was two Stone Giants hitting him for crits in the same turn.
ouch.
We had another short battle with a fire giant where he scored two crits. One on me and one on our barbarian. We were both still standing, but damn did my HP drop in a hurry.

This is the other thing I meant to say in OP. It's better when you need it to be good. Crits are typically pretty swingy moments in combat because you don't know when they're coming. Adamantine armor makes the worst-case scenario better, and improves the average case as much as +1 to AC does. It's worse in the best case (enemy has disadvantage) but you need a boost less at that point anyway.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's better when you need it to be good. Crits are typically pretty swingy moments in combat because you don't know when they're coming. Adamantine armor makes the worst-case scenario better, and improves the average case as much as +1 to AC does. It's worse in the best case (enemy has disadvantage) but you need a boost less at that point anyway. I keep telling my bard friend that I'd rather see Vicious Mockery, since that gives a giant disadvantage on an attack ... but there are other t hings going on frequently that don't accommodate that.

[DarkKnightJin]

I'd be happy to see any set of plate armor on either of my currently played characters. The first one is a Dragonborn Death Cleric, with a splash of Fighter for Heavy Armor prof, at 4th level.
The other is a Fighter, at 2nd level. Some Adamantine armor might've saved my life against the boss we were fighting. I went down thanks to eating a rather nasty crit. My dice were also not friendly to me that fight.

Anyway, either Adamantine or Mithral plate would be greatly appreciated by me.
Partly because I love the mental image of some sick, shiny plate armor.

[Ninevehn]

A crit deals double damage, pretty much, since most monster damage is dice-based. So if you get rid of the crit damage, it's roughly the same as a +1 to your armor or shield.

I think this is not a sound assumption. The vast majority of monsters that do attacks against AC have a damage bonus to their attack, and many monsters do multiple dice of damage. Ignoring crits doesn't halve the damage of a bugbear's morningstar (2d8+2, crit +1d8), the claws of a harpy (2d4+1, crit +1d4), or a solar's great sword (6d8+4d6+6, crit +1d6), to choose a few examples of varying power.

It's harder to integrate the value of avoiding inconsistent damage increasing abilities, such as a Hobgoblin's Martial Advantage. It's also more difficult to take into account the various attacks that trigger riders, some with saving throws, when they land (cockatrices petrifying bite, cloakers attaching bite, etc). Admittedly, it's harder yet to balance those against abilities that trigger on a crit, though I do think the former two are more common than the latter.

[strangebloke]

I think this is not a sound assumption. The vast majority of monsters that do attacks against AC have a damage bonus to their attack, and many monsters do multiple dice of damage. Ignoring crits doesn't halve the damage of a bugbear's morningstar (2d8+2, crit +1d8), the claws of a harpy (2d4+1, crit +1d4), or a solar's great sword (6d8+4d6+6, crit +1d6), to choose a few examples of varying power.

It's harder to integrate the value of avoiding inconsistent damage increasing abilities, such as a Hobgoblin's Martial Advantage. It's also more difficult to take into account the various attacks that trigger riders, some with saving throws, when they land (cockatrices petrifying bite, cloakers attaching bite, etc). Admittedly, it's harder yet to balance those against abilities that trigger on a crit, though I do think the former two are more common than the latter.

...Does a crit not double all dice rolled? That was sure my impression. So 2d8+2 becomes 4d8+2. 11 damage -> 20 damage is an increase of 92% which is close enough for me.

[Ninevehn]

I retract my original statement. Mea culpa, I've apparently been playing under houserules for the entirety of 5E's run without realizing it.

[the secret fire]

...Does a crit not double all dice rolled? That was sure my impression. So 2d8+2 becomes 4d8+2. 11 damage -> 20 damage is an increase of 92% which is close enough for me.
I'm fairly certain you're correct. I've never seen a special listing for reduced crit damage in any monster listing in the printed material. Yes, crits nearly double monster damage.

[Lalliman]

I don't attribute gold costs to magic items, so I don't know about value, but I definitely think adamantine armour is great, and I'd rather have it than a +1. Statistical power aside, I would define adamantine armour as more game-changing than any kind of +1, because it completely removes a rather influential part of the game. While a character with +1 AC may take less punishment in the long term, a character immune to crits has the benefit of certainty. You know whether you can afford to stand and fight the giant because you know with certainty whether he can do enough damage in one turn to kill you, rather than making a gamble and hoping he doesn't crit. A character in +1 armour will still break out in cold sweat when an enemy with a large damage die attacks with advantage, a character in adamantine armour won't (unless he's already at low HP).

[SociopathFriend]

I valued the crap out of it in the Out of the Abyss campaign (That's the one with the Demon Lords running around, right?) because the DM was critting me constantly. I had the chance to buy that item, took it, and never looked back.

Hell I think Orcus (He had us each 1v1 a Demon Lord- everyone else got help but noooooo I had to fight alone) crit me 3 times in the final battle. Needless to say, I have nothing but good things to say about Adamantine Armor. That battle had us both down to single-digit hitpoints- it was about as close as it could've been for a fight.

[greenstone]

I have a vague memory that in an earlier edition of D&D, Rogue sneak attacks could not be used against any creature immune to critical hits. In that case, the value of the item would be extremely high.

+1 armour means that you are hit less often, which means less concentration checks. Adamantine armour does not have this benefit.

[strangebloke]

I have a vague memory that in an earlier edition of D&D, Rogue sneak attacks could not be used against any creature immune to critical hits. In that case, the value of the item would be extremely high.

+1 armour means that you are hit less often, which means less concentration checks. Adamantine armour does not have this benefit.

This is a good point, nearly all classes care about concentration checks.

[PeteNutButter]

Your math is overly complicated. The chance that the Adamantine armor negates a crit is going to be the same as the chance that the +1 armor causes an attack to miss entirely. If you presume your foe will have advantage or disadvantage roughly at an equal amount than it’s a wash so you compare the damage of a crit vs that of sustaining another hit.

A crit is equal to another hit minus the damage bonus. This makes the +1 plate just straight up better, as it prevents the same amount of dice but also the damage bonus. How big of a swing that is depends on the foe of course. Quicklings do 1d4+6 damage meaning negating a crit is practically useless compared to negating a hit. On the other hand if a wyvern crits you with its sting you’ll be wishing you had that adamantine plate. (The wyvern thing is anecdotal though, since you have an even chance to have the +1 plate make it miss the next sting.)

To sum up, unless you’re constantly in a situation where foes have advantage against you (reckless barbarian) or foes already need a 20 to hit you (through ridiculous AC), take the +1 armor. Even the argument that “preventing damage spikes is worth it” is flawed as most foes have more than 1 attack and you usually have more than 1 foe.

[TIPOT]

Adamantine armour also has the added benefit of making you harder to kill after they knock you out. A melee attack auto-crits an unconscious person, leading to 2 failed death saving throws. If they then fail one on their turn that's death. Adamantine can greatly reduce the chance of this happening.

[Davrix]

To be honest adamantine and Mithril as magical items have just bothered me in 5th. I don't even treat them as such but rather use them to augment items. Like having a +1 adamantine armor. Now of course this usually ups the rare value and when I combine it this way I usually slap on some minor little bonus like being able to cast the light cantrip once per day and give it attunment.

[djreynolds]

Critical hits are automatic hits, regardless of the shield spell or high AC. A natural 20 hits. So, yeah its undervalued.

We are playing SKT right now, getting crit by a boulder would kill my 35hp wizard out right.

And I'm pretty sure our DM, just being nice, has fudged the damage done by critical hits party members have taken.

[Jerrykhor]

I agree, its very underrated in its value to annoy the DM, when you wipe the stupid smile from their faces after they find out that their Nat20s do nothing.

[Unoriginal]

Imagine the players' faces if they realize the bad guy is wearing one, though.

[Pex]

I agree, its very underrated in its value to annoy the DM, when you wipe the stupid smile from their faces after they find out that their Nat20s do nothing.


Imagine the players' faces if they realize the bad guy is wearing one, though.

:smallfrown:-> $$ :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin: $$

[MrStabby]

I agree, its very underrated in its value to annoy the DM, when you wipe the stupid smile from their faces after they find out that their Nat20s do nothing.

Or the DMs relief when their medium difficulty encounter doesn't TPK the party due to a series of unexpected rolls.

[EvilAnagram]

Or the DMs relief when their medium difficulty encounter doesn't TPK the party due to a series of unexpected rolls.

Yeah, it's more this than anything else. I gave it to my paladin because, by the grace of the dice gods, I seemed to crit him every session. I continued to do so, but with less disastrous results.

[strangebloke]

Your math is overly complicated. The chance that the Adamantine armor negates a crit is going to be the same as the chance that the +1 armor causes an attack to miss entirely. If you presume your foe will have advantage or disadvantage roughly at an equal amount than it’s a wash so you compare the damage of a crit vs that of sustaining another hit.

A crit is equal to another hit minus the damage bonus. This makes the +1 plate just straight up better, as it prevents the same amount of dice but also the damage bonus. How big of a swing that is depends on the foe of course. Quicklings do 1d4+6 damage meaning negating a crit is practically useless compared to negating a hit. On the other hand if a wyvern crits you with its sting you’ll be wishing you had that adamantine plate. (The wyvern thing is anecdotal though, since you have an even chance to have the +1 plate make it miss the next sting.)

To sum up, unless you’re constantly in a situation where foes have advantage against you (reckless barbarian) or foes already need a 20 to hit you (through ridiculous AC), take the +1 armor. Even the argument that “preventing damage spikes is worth it” is flawed as most foes have more than 1 attack and you usually have more than 1 foe.

Well, maybe my math is overcomplicated, since it seems to have distracted from my main point.

My whole argument is that a +1 is generally better, like you said, but that adamantine is cheaper for the same effect, and is better in situations where you need it. It's like a +1.5 AC item if you're restrained, for example. Adamantine is uncommon whereas +1 armor is rare.

[PeteNutButter]

Well, maybe my math is overcomplicated, since it seems to have distracted from my main point.

My whole argument is that a +1 is generally better, like you said, but that adamantine is cheaper for the same effect, and is better in situations where you need it. It's like a +1.5 AC item if you're restrained, for example. Adamantine is uncommon whereas +1 armor is rare.

Fair enough. I also have been using the sane magic item prices, and have found more than a few items which I'd change the prices on. Most of those are subjective though, and can't be proven mathematically. It's not perfect, but its far better than anything WotC provides, and I'm too busy/lazy to make my own. I did ban any +x armor and weapons as these things break bounded accuracy and make it no fun. My optimizers would certainly save up for +x armor and shields and have 25+ AC in no time, making mooks have to crit to hit.:smallfurious:

As a DM I favor giving out something like Adamantine plate massively over +1 plate. The things is, if I never hit the PCs fights are boring, but if I get some amount of damage on them, and they get to feel cool for negating a crit... it's a win win.

[djreynolds]

Perhaps you could add in disclaimer, only so good foe so many critical hits. Maybe 20-30, and the armor is normal

[strangebloke]

As a DM I favor giving out something like Adamantine plate massively over +1 plate. The things is, if I never hit the PCs fights are boring, but if I get some amount of damage on them, and they get to feel cool for negating a crit... it's a win win.

Oh, for sure. I don't think I've ever given out a +1 item. I'm becoming a big fan of consumable goodies as well, since they can soften the edges of encounter design. (Woops, that encounter was too hard? Oh well, at least the party has the resources to counter it.)

[HolyAvenger7]

snip

Anyway, either Adamantine or Mithral plate would be greatly appreciated by me.
Partly because I love the mental image of some sick, shiny plate armor.

Well Armor of Gleaming is a common item. :smallbiggrin: It can also be attributed as a minor property from the DMG.