Wisper bard upgrade*

[stoutstien]

I love the overall flavor of the sub class has the nightmare spinner feel to it but I think it fall short in play. Im trying to get it's power scale right under lore/ glamour. Here what I've pencil on a napkin

Psychic blade- just make it usable with single target spells.

Words of Terror- without a dm making an incounter custom made it hard to use. Make it an action once per short rest.

Mantle of whispers- add speech to Shadow. Last til next rest or dismissed. Gives prof with con saves while in use.

Shadow lore-if immune to charm it instead does 10d6 + spell mod psychic damage int save for half.

Did I over balance?

[DracoKnight]

I love the overall flavor of the sub class has the nightmare spinner feel to it but I think it fall short in play. Im trying to get it's power scale right under lore/ glamour. Here what I've pencil on a napkin

I've played this particular bard as well, and I've played it from 5th to 12th level (Storm King's Thunder). My thoughts and opinions on your proposed changes will be colored by that, particularly because I feel it's actually as strong/stronger than Glamour, and about as strong as Lore.


Psychic blade- just make it usable with single target spells.

This use of Bardic Inspiration is already one of the strongest out there. Requiring you to keep a weapon on your person isn't bad - especially for a subclass whose mechanical and thematic core is "Rogue, but Bard" - it's kind of the one thing that keeps this balanced. Also, for those who care, it's explicitly psychic damage; very few things resist or are immune to that. So it's great damage, great damage type, and just gets better as you level up. On top of that, Psychic Blades works like a Paladin's Divine Smite, you apply it AFTER the hit, which means you can wait to see if you Crit, and then use the ability to get double the dice you would if you'd used the ability on a normal hit. Multiclass this with Assassin for extreme cheese.


Words of Terror- without a dm making an incounter custom made it hard to use. Make it an action once per short rest.

Okay, Words of Terror isn't something you should be trying to use IN combat. This is a feature for the Social Pillar of the game. And it's a really freaking powerful one at that. You can instill paranoia in someone, and relate that terror to either yourself or any other creature of your choice. Their boss? The Lord of the Land? Their SO, who's trying to thwart the party's plan in some way? All valid options. It just requires some creativity on the part of the user. The kicker, here, though: if they succeed on their save they have no idea you were trying to f*ck with their mind. That means that you don't alienate an ally if you use it on them.


Mantle of whispers- add speech to Shadow. Last til next rest or dismissed. Gives prof with con saves while in use.

I will concede here. You should sound like them too, but I've also never seen a Bard who didn't take the Actor Feat. It would be nice to have in just the base ability, though.


Shadow lore-if immune to charm it instead does 10d6 + spell mod psychic damage int save for half.

Again, this is a really powerful Social Pillar feature. Bards are Support in Combat, and they get more than enough spells for that on their list, and if you wanna be a damage dealer, you already have both Psychic Blades and Magical Secrets (I picked up shadow blade from XGtE, btw, it's great on this bard). This doesn't need tweaking.


Did I over balance?

As I stated in the beginning: I don't think that the subclass needs a tweak at all, so I would say, yeah you probably overtuned it.

[Chaosvii7]

Yes, absolutely. They're not at a lack for damage, they do as well as a rogue with sneak attack and have the added benefit of being able to buff themselves with their spells. They don't need to tack psychic blades onto damage spells, especially when Bards don't get a lot of those as a baseline. It also makes an easier point of balance since they're already getting good damage without having to spend spell slots for it. This would just make it so people would try to game the damage boost and stay as far away from the fight as possible, which never makes for good combat.

I understand your desire to make Words of Terror more potent in combat, but not every session of every game is going to be focused around combat. Not every class ability is meant to be something that a character uses in a fight. This has its niche and fills it well, and it sits as a point of balance that most every other class has to contend with. To make an ability have such a function in combat cheapens the idea of non-combat abilities.

I think adding the ability to mimic the voice of the target you steal a shadow from with Mantle of Shadows is actually a worthwhile change. The duration change is mezza-mezza; I think it should have a limit but 1 hour might not be enough time to get mileage out of it. Adding proficiency in Con saves with it is pretty much unnecessary, and it seems like all it's doing is making an already useful option too power-gamey for its own good.

The Shadow Lore change is just bizarre and unnecessary. This basically makes it Psychic Scream after you've used your 9th-level spell slot.

Not all abilities have to deal damage or be used in combat, and Whispers bards epitomizes that. It's designed for political intrigue, assassination, impersonation, and scare tactics. Not dealing lots of damage in combat. The changes would definitely make it good, but without a doubt in my mind step too far into the territory of making it overpowered for no reason other than "I like this so it should be better". Making changes to something should encourage healthy balance among other options as well as adding diversity among those options. I think most all of these changes miss that mark handily.

[stoutstien]

Psychic blade seems like a great option at first, scales well but it uses up inspiration dices which are almost better given out for gwm attack bonus or savings throws. it hits like sneak attack which is at will up to what 5 times a short rest?
Word of Terror has so many hurdles if the target didn't have to be alone would least make it usable.
Agreed on mandle of wispers with con save added is to much but needs a longer use window
Shadow lore needs something

[Chaosvii7]

Psychic blade seems like a great option at first, scales well but it uses up inspiration dices which are almost better given out for gwm attack bonus or savings throws. it hits like sneak attack which is at will up to what 5 times a short rest?
Word of Terror has so many hurdles if the target didn't have to be alone would least make it usable.
Agreed on mandle of wispers with con save added is to much but needs a longer use window
Shadow lore needs something

I've never seen a rogue hit sneak attack more than five times in one encounter in 5e. And saving inspiration for GWM and saving throws is fine, but once you hit 5th level there really is no difference between choosing to up your damage on a hit or helping your friends out since you get all the dice back on a short rest. If your party can't concede to letting you rest every so often during the day after you blow your inspiration saving them, you shouldn't be offering them bardic inspiration dice anyways.

Making Words of Terror work on anyone instead of only people who are isolated is a fair change. The ability isn't meant to be a catch-all, there's going to be times where you have to tailor the situation around the ability rather than the ability tailoring itself. But that change at least gives it use when you're trying to pick someone out from a crowd instead of having to get them alone before you can scare them.

Shadow Lore really doesn't need much, and certainly not a damage component. At most? Make the fear contagious. Whenever the charmed creature interacts with someone that isn't you, you can try and charm them in the same manner through your victim, like a sort of fear disease. Charm immunity in 5e is reserved mostly for powerful creatures, and those aren't the kinds of things you're going to want to waste Shadow Lore on anyways. This is a great ability for turning a crowd of angry people into fans so you can sway a social situation in your favor, and adding a Cult of Personality feeling to it I think would help to make it a lot more potent.

[stoutstien]

I guess I feel like psychic blade is the weakest lv 3 bard subclass feature.
The removal of the target being alone will help words of Terror a ton
The speech and a longer duration added mantle of wispers would be a good fit.
I re read Shadow lore and didn't realize it was 8 hours long.