Sword of the Arcane Order

[retaliation08]

I just noticed the Sword of the Arcane Order feat and the High One warrior-wizard variant from Champions of Valor.
Then I thought of the Mystic Ranger.
Then I realized that Ranger, Paladin, and Wizard all have Elf substitution levels.
Then I started wondering if Sword of the Arcane Order had anything to do fluffwise (Azuth or Mystra) with Mage of the Arcane Order.

So, how would I go about making a gish build with these classes (doesn't have to include both Ranger and Paladin)?

I think a Mystic Ranger/Wizard with Extra spell for Haste from Trapsmith could make a decent entry into Swiftblade, but I am more interested in the Paladin side of things.

Thanks for your help :)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Frostblood Half-Orc in Dragon Magic gets Endurance as a bonus feat at 1st level, and if you would later gain Endurance as a bonus feat, you can select any other feat you qualify for instead. A Mystic Ranger gets Endurance at the 4th level, Sword of the Arcane Order requires Ranger 4, so going Frostblood Half-Orc basically gives a Mystic Ranger that feat as a bonus feat at 4th level.

I'd recommend combining Mystic Ranger with the Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) variant, modify Frostblood Half-Orc per the Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs) variant (a tundra is technically a desert), and use the Half-Humans and Humanlike Races variant from Races of Destiny p150. You'll count as a Human instead of an Orc (but still count as a Half-Orc and Dragonblood race), and you can take the feat Magical Training in PGtF, which gives you a spellbook with a few spells and allows you to add more spells to it just like a Wizard does per the Rules Compendium (any character who prepares and casts spells from a spellbook uses the same method). So you can learn Wizard spells and add them to your spellbook, and prepare them in your Mystic Ranger spell slots via Sword of the Arcane Order.

The best course from there is to take Master of Many Forms to turn into a physically powerful creature, once you have seven levels of that you should take Warshaper. There isn't really any synergy at all between Sword of the Arcane Order and Mage of the Arcane Order or Swiftblade, the similarity of names is just a coincidence, one is from Faerun and the other is from Greyhawk, they're not related in any way. No respectable gish would take enough Ranger levels to take Sword of the Arcane Order, and Mage of the Arcane Order can't really be shoehorned into a gish build because it loses too much BAB.

[retaliation08]

Taking academic Priest then would help with MAD for casting wizard spells if I avoided spells with saves I guess. INT penalty from half orc hurts though.

What about on the paladin side of things?

Edit: I understand that even with optomization, a build like this will not be super strong, but the game tends to be low OP around tier 4ish.

[Zombulian]

Taking academic Priest then would help with MAD for casting wizard spells if I avoided spells with saves I guess. INT penalty from half orc hurts though.

What about on the paladin side of things?

Edit: I understand that even with optomization, a build like this will not be super strong, but the game tends to be low OP around tier 4ish.

Look up the "A-Game Paladin"

[retaliation08]

Thanks, A-game Paladin is interesting.

I seem to recall some variant or option that gave half-orcs a bonus favored enemy if it was (humans) or (orcs). The fluff was that they had a special disdain for one part of their heritage. It's not a racial sub level for Half-orc ranger and I can't seem to find or remember what it's from. Any ideas?

[SirNibbles]

Thanks, A-game Paladin is interesting.

I seem to recall some variant or option that gave half-orcs a bonus favored enemy if it was (humans) or (orcs). The fluff was that they had a special disdain for one part of their heritage. It's not a racial sub level for Half-orc ranger and I can't seem to find or remember what it's from. Any ideas?

"A half-orc ranger may select an additional favored enemy at 1st level, choosing either humanoid (human) or humanoid (orc) and gaining a +2 bonus on damage rolls and certain skill checks as normal. The half-orc ranger cannot also select humanoid (human) or humanoid (orc) as his 1st-level favored enemy. As he advances in levels he may increase this bonus like any other favored enemy. However, his instinctive loathing and revulsion for this part of his parentage imposes a penalty on all Charisma checks and skills equal to his favored enemy bonus when dealing with members of the race he despises." - Dragon Magazine #341, page 93

[fallensavior]

The most interesting synergy I can think of is Mystic Ranger + Sword of the Arcane Order + Shooting Star Ranger. If you take 1 wizard level, this lets you double dip your ranger caster level. SotAA says add your ranger levels to your wiz CL and SSR says your ranger caster level is 1/2 ranger level + 2 + your arcane CL. So a 19 ranger/1 wizard would be 31st CL.

[retaliation08]

"A half-orc ranger may select an additional favored enemy at 1st level, choosing either humanoid (human) or humanoid (orc) and gaining a +2 bonus on damage rolls and certain skill checks as normal. The half-orc ranger cannot also select humanoid (human) or humanoid (orc) as his 1st-level favored enemy. As he advances in levels he may increase this bonus like any other favored enemy. However, his instinctive loathing and revulsion for this part of his parentage imposes a penalty on all Charisma checks and skills equal to his favored enemy bonus when dealing with members of the race he despises." - Dragon Magazine #341, page 93

Perfect thanks!

[heavyfuel]

There are so many arguments on why Mystic Ranger + Sword of the Arcane Order isn't RAW legal, that I don't feel like typing them on a cellphone.

So for now I'll just link this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?422288-Mystic-Ranger-Shooting-Star

It's an old thread, so don't necro it.

Anyway, I stand by my position there. If your DM allows it, do it in a heartbeat, but know that they're well within their right to deny you.

[fallensavior]

I hear what you're saying, but I disagree. I don't think all variant classes are supposed to lock you out of all substitution levels, neither RAW or RAI.

The other issue with trading away your animal companion twice, while technically RAW, is fixed by taking the variant wizard (for your one wiz level) that trades familiar for animal companion so that you can trade away a companion twice.

Oh, and the easy RAI fix for trading away endurance a level early is to not gain Weavespeak until level 4. Of course, you can alternatively just not take the substitution level for level 3 since RAW you are allowed to pick and choose whether to take each particular sub level.

Still, always talk to your DM. RAW, as optional rules, no variants (or even prestige classes) are allowed by default.

[heavyfuel]

I hear what you're saying, but I disagree. I don't think all variant classes are supposed to lock you out of all substitution levels, neither RAW or RAI.

The other issue with trading away your animal companion twice, while technically RAW, is fixed by taking the variant wizard (for your one wiz level) that trades familiar for animal companion so that you can trade away a companion twice.

Oh, and the easy RAI fix for trading away endurance a level early is to not gain Weavespeak until level 4. Of course, you can alternatively just not take the substitution level for level 3 since RAW you are allowed to pick and choose whether to take each particular sub level.

Still, always talk to your DM. RAW, as optional rules, no variants (or even prestige classes) are allowed by default.

How are you trading away an Animal Companion granted by 1 lv in Wizard at your 4th level in Ranger? You can't trade away a class feature once you've chosen it.

How is taking a substitution level that is explicitly for level 3 rangers at lv 4, combined with the other substitution level from lv 4 the "easy RAI fix"? You talk of RAI as if you were sitting at the designers table when they made these decision.

[retaliation08]

Well, I am probably not going the Ranger route. The original idea I had was for the High One warrior Wizard sub levels.

Rather than debating about the Ranger side (which you can continue to do, of course), I am more interested in hearing how a Paladin/Wizard multiclass can, well, not suck so much.

Thanks for all the aid so far.

Edit: The idea for the character (and the paladin/ranger levels) would be kind of like the Templar's from Dragon Age. A bit of an Arcane inquisitor who uses, chiefly divination, arcane magic to assist in duties. I also really like the idea of a spell thief level for steal spells. It would also set the character up for unseen seer. Doesn't feel like a very elegant combo. Can't tell if there is any synergy between Master Spellthief and the arcane casting provided by SotAO or Magical Training feats.

[Nifft]

Mystic Wildshape Ranger was here.

Shooting Star Ranger is a loser.


Regarding the SotAA feat, it might be possible to qualify as an organization member who does not take any sub levels -- that would allow SotAA on a Mystic Ranger who is not a Shooting Star Ranger.

[Zombulian]

Well, I am probably not going the Ranger route. The original idea I had was for the High One warrior Wizard sub levels.

Rather than debating about the Ranger side (which you can continue to do, of course), I am more interested in hearing how a Paladin/Wizard multiclass can, well, not suck so much.

Thanks for all the aid so far.

Edit: The idea for the character (and the paladin/ranger levels) would be kind of like the Templar's from Dragon Age. A bit of an Arcane inquisitor who uses, chiefly divination, arcane magic to assist in duties. I also really like the idea of a spell thief level for steal spells. It would also set the character up for unseen seer. Doesn't feel like a very elegant combo. Can't tell if there is any synergy between Master Spellthief and the arcane casting provided by SotAO or Magical Training feats.

It'll.. uh... pretty much suck no matter what. There's virtually no synergy nor PrC's to take advantage of to my knowledge.
You have a LOT of ideas going on here that don't really synergize too well, especially if you're set on shoving Paladin in there somewhere.
What you *could* do is some type of Human with Able Learner Rogue 1/Trickster Spellthief 4/Unseen Seer X.

[retaliation08]

It'll.. uh... pretty much suck no matter what. There's virtually no synergy nor PrC's to take advantage of to my knowledge.
You have a LOT of ideas going on here that don't really synergize too well, especially if you're set on shoving Paladin in there somewhere.
What you *could* do is some type of Human with Able Learner Rogue 1/Trickster Spellthief 4/Unseen Seer X.

Yeah, the number of ideas stems from the lack of ideas that actually work haha.
I was hoping for a noncombat utility (divination and abjuration mostly) caster with a martial feel in combat.
I think Cleric is really the shortest route to that end, but I was hoping to have something more INT based for skills and arcane spells.

[fallensavior]

Beguiler? Duskblade? Beguiler/Duskblade?

[retaliation08]

Beguiler? Duskblade? Beguiler/Duskblade?

Yep, I had considered those, but their limited access to spells (particularly the schools divination and abjuration) mean they aren't a great fit.

[heavyfuel]

Are you dead set on Wizard?

Are you dead set on Paladin?

Plenty of prestige classes offer you decent casting and very good melee abilities.

A typical build would be along the lines of Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5

You can then choose your spells known to include divinations and abjurations.


Also, on the subject of the Duskblade and Beguilers, the Arcane Disciple feat can help with lack of spells known. You should look here (http://ftm3.altervista.org/ASMoNM/domains.html)for a complete list of domains and domain spells to see if there's any that interests you. Protection Domain offers plenty of abjurations, and Insight Domain offers divinations

[retaliation08]

Are you dead set on Wizard?

Are you dead set on Paladin?

Plenty of prestige classes offer you decent casting and very good melee abilities.

A typical build would be along the lines of Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5

You can then choose your spells known to include divinations and abjurations.


Also, on the subject of the Duskblade and Beguilers, the Arcane Disciple feat can help with lack of spells known. You should look here (http://ftm3.altervista.org/ASMoNM/domains.html)for a complete list of domains and domain spells to see if there's any that interests you. Protection Domain offers plenty of abjurations, and Insight Domain offers divinations

I'm not really dead set on either. The above build is similar to what I had in mind. If It was High One Wizard instead of Sorc, it could get the ASF reduction without the level of Spellsword, but would delay AC entry due to BAB. Could fight in Divine Oracle 2 or MS 2 though.

I'll keep messing with it and hope that something sparks.

[Zombulian]

Yeah, the number of ideas stems from the lack of ideas that actually work haha.
I was hoping for a noncombat utility (divination and abjuration mostly) caster with a martial feel in combat.
I think Cleric is really the shortest route to that end, but I was hoping to have something more INT based for skills and arcane spells.

What you're looking for is literally the Trickster Spellthief. 6/9 casting, access to the full Bard list plus Sorc/Wiz casting of the Divination, Transmutation, Illusion, Enchantment, and Abjuration, plus the Godsblood Spellthief feat can add a domain to your effective spells known by letting you convert stolen spells to that chosen domain. Sneak Attack at level 1 qualifies for Craven. 3/4 BAB. Plus Steal Spell to either counter other casters or to aid your full caster allies in terms of action economy.
Cleric into Divine Oracle is also great.

[SirNibbles]

What you're looking for is literally the Trickster Spellthief. 6/9 casting, access to the full Bard list plus Sorc/Wiz casting of the Divination, Transmutation, Illusion, Enchantment, and Abjuration, plus the Godsblood Spellthief feat can add a domain to your effective spells known by letting you convert stolen spells to that chosen domain. Sneak Attack at level 1 qualifies for Craven. 3/4 BAB. Plus Steal Spell to either counter other casters or to aid your full caster allies in terms of action economy.

Source is Dragon Magazine #353

[Anthrowhale]

You might consider Wizard/Sacred Exorcist/Silver Pyromancer which gives something like a LG religious wizard.

An alternative version of this would be Archivist/Church Inquisitor.

[Zombulian]

You might consider Wizard/Sacred Exorcist/Silver Pyromancer which gives something like a LG religious wizard.

Huh. This whole time I thought that PrC was Divine only.