Epic Levels - No Epic Class Progression

[theblasblas]

If I were to homebrew that instead of having epic level progression, epic level characters would have to multiclass or choose a prestige class, how much would this affect gameplay balance? I'd remove any multiclass restriction/penalty and restrictions about continuing a class after multiclassing out of them(such as with monks and paladins), as well as limiting epic spells by limiting how much you can reduce the casting time or raise the caster level.

Would the level-appropriate encounters become too difficult?

[Kish]

I'm less than clear on what you're asking about. Since you're saying epic spells would be limited, not gone, I take it the characters still count as "epic," and can take epic feats with their standard (pre-epic) feat progression ongoing forever. Does BAB continue to increase forever too? Saves?

[theblasblas]

Yes, they'll be able to take epic feats using their normal feat gain, and they gain the epic attack and save bonuses instead of the normal class bonuses.

Now that you've asked about it though... does it normally not work that way when you multiclass after epic level?

Edit:

Basically the only thing I'm removing is the epic bonus feats and class progression past Level 20 for classes and past Level 10 for prestige classes.

[DarkSoul]

In my opinion, you'll start making characters more complex than you or the players might want them to be. What if the Wiz10/Incantatrix 10 isn't interested in picking up another prestige class at level 21? They're stuck with taking another wizard level and getting nothing but +1 caster level. Keeping epic progressions for classes, especially prestige classes, will let someone who just wants to play a single prestige class character for whatever reason, do that.

[theblasblas]

In my opinion, you'll start making characters more complex than you or the players might want them to be.

Hmm, you have a point. I myself want them to become increasingly complex in a "I have more tools to deal with varied problems kind of way", but others might find the number of abilities confusing.


To clarify, I'm not the DM, but I'm brainstorming with him to find a way to take the campaign to epic levels while avoiding power creep. He initially didn't want to, but conceded after we agreed that he'd be houseruling some stuff. Basically, what we want to do is to kinda... make epic levels seem more like pre-epic level and avoid power creep. The main issue we found were epic spells and epic feats, but the players(including me) didn't want to get rid of them entirely. So the solution we thought of was to limit the rate of epic feat acquisition using the method outlined in the OP

Can I ask you about how you would houserule this?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Epic progressions primarily serve to grant bonus epic feats in addition to the feat gained every three levels, and epic feats aren't exactly an issue. I would remove the epic level progression from prestige classes that enables them to go beyond ten levels and continue gaining additional uses of class features, but leave epic level progressions for base classes unchanged.

[DarkSoul]

Hmm, you have a point. I myself want them to become increasingly complex in a "I have more tools to deal with varied problems kind of way", but others might find the number of abilities confusing.


To clarify, I'm not the DM, but I'm brainstorming with him to find a way to take the campaign to epic levels while avoiding power creep. He initially didn't want to, but conceded after we agreed that he'd be houseruling some stuff. Basically, what we want to do is to kinda... make epic levels seem more like pre-epic level and avoid power creep. The main issue we found were epic spells and epic feats, but the players(including me) didn't want to get rid of them entirely. So the solution we thought of was to limit the rate of epic feat acquisition using the method outlined in the OP

Can I ask you about how you would houserule this?Rein in Epic Spellcasting. It's the single most complex aspect of the epic rules as printed, and the easiest to abuse if the DM isn't completely comfortable with telling the players "No, you can't create an epic spell like that." As soon as the players figure out that it's possible, as written, to create DC 0 epic spells for no time, XP, or gold payment, that's the point that the DM has to step in and say no. My current house rules for epic spells probably aren't complete, but as they stand I have:



Epic Spell Slots

The Epic Spellcasting feat has three distinct sets of prerequisites, of which an epic character must meet at least one to take the feat. This only grants the epic spell slots tied to the skill used to qualify for the feat.
A character who can only qualify for Epic Spellcasting with one type of casting (arcane or divine) can only research, prepare, or cast that type of epic spell in those slots.


Epic Spell Seeds

Arcane spellcasters cannot research, prepare, or cast any epic spell using the heal seed. Such spells are always considered divine.
Arcane spellcasters cannot research, prepare, or cast any epic spell using the “returns life to a previously dead creature” function of the life seed.
Divine spellcasters cannot research, prepare, or cast any epic spell using the destroy seed unless they have access to the Destruction domain.
Divine spellcasters cannot research, prepare, or cast any epic spell using the “transport the caster to a different time stream” function of the transport seed unless they have access to the Trickery domain.


Minimum epic spell DC’s

All epic spells have a minimum spellcraft DC equal to the highest base seed DC of all seeds used in the spell. This means a spell using the Armor (DC 14) and Conceal (DC 17) seeds cannot be mitigated to lower than a final DC 17. This also sets minimum gold, experience, and time research costs for epic spells.


Minimum duration

An epic spell’s duration is equal to the shortest non-instantaneous duration of the base seeds. The only way a finished epic spell can have an instantaneous duration is if all the seeds used in its creation are instantaneous.




Also, make sure that you're using the 3.5 versions of all the epic feats (especially automatic quicken spell). I think the biggest offender, after Epic Spellcasting, from a power creep perspective is probably Multispell, especially with cost reducers like Improved Metamagic (the Incantatrix and/or Dweomerkeeper class abilities, or the epic feat of the same name, among others) and the Quicken Spell feat.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Time Stop. In my game it's an instantaneous duration with an effect granting you 1d4+1 rounds of time. The reason for the clarification is to prevent Extend Spell and (more importantly) Persistent Spell from being used on it. It can be Empowered or Maximized, but there's no way to get more than 10 rounds out of it (Intensified Time Stop, a base 17th-level spell).

[JBiddles]

[SPOILER=Epic Spells]
Arcane spellcasters cannot research, prepare, or cast any epic spell using the heal seed. Such spells are always considered divine.
Arcane spellcasters cannot research, prepare, or cast any epic spell using the “returns life to a previously dead creature” function of the life seed.
Divine spellcasters cannot research, prepare, or cast any epic spell using the destroy seed unless they have access to the Destruction domain.
Divine spellcasters cannot research, prepare, or cast any epic spell using the “transport the caster to a different time stream” function of the transport seed unless they have access to the Trickery domain.
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Why is this so important for balance? They can already duplicate divine/arcane magic with a Wish/Miracle. It doesn't seem too game-breaking for the Epic Wizard to be able to "manipulate the seeds of true magic" to raise someone from the dead if they really, really need to.

[Falontani]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247756-Librim-Eternia-Tome-of-Epic-Prestige-(Completed)) is what I personally think is the best homebrew epic system that I have found. It definitely does not get rid of epic scaling, however it does balance it quite a bit.

[DarkSoul]

Why is this so important for balance? They can already duplicate divine/arcane magic with a Wish/Miracle. It doesn't seem too game-breaking for the Epic Wizard to be able to "manipulate the seeds of true magic" to raise someone from the dead if they really, really need to.Wizards have enough toys, I don't feel like they need to be able to completely replace a divine spellcaster. In my games, the ability to raise the dead is exclusive to divine spellcasters.

[Falontani]

Wizards have enough toys, I don't feel like they need to be able to completely replace a divine spellcaster. In my games, the ability to raise the dead is exclusive to divine spellcasters.

where do bards fall into this whole thing? they can cast cure spells, and I believe revivify is on their list

[DarkSoul]

where do bards fall into this whole thing? they can cast cure spells, and I believe revivify is on their listIt's not on their list. Spellcasters keep their non-epic spell lists, but as an arcane spellcaster if a bard takes epic spellcasting they fall under the same limitations as every other arcane epic caster.