Retroactive Hit Points from Con Increase?

[Palanan]

Last night, as the party was leveling, one of my players made the claim that when a character’s Con bonus increases, it not only adds an additional hit point for the current level, but it retroactively adds hit points for all earlier levels, as if the character had had the higher value of Con from the beginning.

In fifteen years of playing and running games I’ve never once heard this claim, and the player couldn’t immediately find any rules text to support it. I can’t find anything in the CRB that specifically addresses this issue. Has anyone heard of this before?

[heavyfuel]

Your player is correct.


If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.


The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice

[Long_shanks]

Constitution (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores/#Constitution_Con)

If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

[emeraldstreak]

In fifteen years of playing and running games I’ve never once heard this claim, and the player couldn’t immediately find any rules text to support it. I can’t find anything in the CRB that specifically addresses this issue. Has anyone heard of this before?

PF Creative Director on record. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kpru&page=1?Int-and-Skills#9)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by long_shanks
Constitution

If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

Thanks for the link. Can you point out the text where it specifically mentions this should be retroactive?

[Long_shanks]

Thanks for the link. Can you point out the text where it specifically mentions this should be retroactive?

It's sort of implied. How could your hit points increase accordingly without it being retroactive?

However, just look at the temporary and permanent bonuses sections just below. Temporary gives the formula to add temp HP and Hp to your total for the duration of the increase. Then, permanent bonuses says it gives you HP (permanently). Doesn't specify the formula, but it is the same than the temp one.

It was the same way in 3.5. If not, there almost wouldn't be any advantage to increase Con. Fort save? and that's pretty much it...

[Zanos]

Bear's endurance also says it gives the "usual benefit to hitpoints."

+1 for retroactive here. Always played that way.

[Khedrac]

The thing with Hit Points is that the model is backwards to the way they work - One's hit point total varies with con (one of the reasons why con poison is so feared) and should be compared to the amount of damage taken - when the damage exceed the total hit points one falls over.

Con damage/drain is also one reason why one should track the number of hit points rolled each level (if rolling hit points) - because when con goes below 10 the penalty to hit points applied to each hit dice cannot lower any single level's hit points below 1.

For example: suppose a 3rd level rogue with 10 con has 17 13 hit points (10 6 at first level play exactly average of 3.5 per level thereafter) and takes 1 point of con damage:


Level
Roll 1
after damage
Roll 2
after damage


1
6
5
6
5


2
1
1
3
2


3
6
5
6 4
3


Total
17 13
16 12
17 13
15 11

As you can see, if hit points are rolled the effects of Con damage are not be quite as bad for bad HP rolls.

Edit: Correction of broken numbers - thanks to Long_Shanks for pointing them out. (I changed my mind on the example and somehow forogt to update my mental maths).

[Long_shanks]

-Snip-

It's kind of complicating the issue. We never really go into that much details with it...

Also, you might want to check the numbers in your table. There are a few mistakes that makes your point even more complicated :smallwink:

[Goaty14]

[snip]

No, you don't have to track rolled hp. You can find out your rolled hp by subtracting (CON mod * ECL).

[Acanous]

It was always this way, too. In 3.5 your CON changing changed your hit points. Your skill points were static based on INT when you levelled.

Buuut
Pathfinder changed Skill points, and now both skills and HP vary with stat changes.

Try not to think of HP as a locked, static thing. You get X+Y*Level, where X is the hit dice of your class and Y is your CON mod.

[Remuko]

Thanks for the link. Can you point out the text where it specifically mentions this should be retroactive?


PF Creative Director on record. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kpru&page=1?Int-and-Skills#9)

As you can see Palanan if you read that URL EmeraldStreak posted the creative director outright confirms that's how it works.

[martixy]

Not only is that true for Constitution, but in PF that is also true for Intelligence (and skill points)!

[Khedrac]

On the subject of tracking it at each level:
We don't in the games I play, but then we don't use rolled hit points.

If you do use rolled hit points and don't track them then it makes con damage more lethal, especially if someone has rolled below average for their hit points.


No, you don't have to track rolled hp. You can find out your rolled hp by subtracting (CON mod * ECL).
That gives your total, but it doesn't help with con loss and rolled hit points where the number each level actually matters (see revised example above).

[Petrukio]

In fifteen years of playing and running games I’ve never once heard this claim, and the player couldn’t immediately find any rules text to support it. I can’t find anything in the CRB that specifically addresses this issue. Has anyone heard of this before?

It's not a matter of retroactive or not. It's part of the flat-out description of Constitution. To quote:

"You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:
• Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he advances in level)."
- Pathfinder Core Rulebook, page 16
- D&D 3.5e Player's Handbook, page 9 (yes, it's the exact same quote)

Even earlier versions of D&D used this technique, but not nearly so cleanly -- there's a chart of what to add/subtract instead of it being easily calculable. To quote:
"Hit Point Adjustment is added to or subtracted from each Hit Die rolled for the character. However, no Hit Die ever yields less than 1 hit point, regardless of modifications. If an adjustment would lower the number rolled to 0 or less, consider the final result to be 1. Always use the character's current Constitution to determine hit point bonuses and penalties."
- Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook (Revised Edition), page 21. (2nd Edition)

"Hit Point Adjustment indicates the subtraction from or addition to each hit die for a character. (Hit dice are explained fully under the appropriate heading.) Note that subtraction can never reduce any hit die below 1, i.e. if a die is rolled and a 1 comes up, or if a 2 is rolled and the penalty due to constitution is -2, the die is read as 1 (hit point) regardless of subtractions."
- Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook (original idol cover), page 12 (1st Edition)

I got rid of my 4e books when I moved, and I don't have 5e around anywhere, but I imagine it was much the same. Anyway, my point was that your CURRENT Constitution score/modifier has always effected your hit points. So it's not a matter of whether it's retroactive or not. It just IS. You calculate hit points based on hit dice (full hit points at the first hit die if it's a class die, and then whatever rules you use for the rest), plus some modifier based on your current Constitution score multiplied by your current level.

[Elkad]

It's not a matter of retroactive or not. It's part of the flat-out description of Constitution. To quote:

"You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to:
• Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he advances in level)."

... Snipped the rest...

Obviously you are playing wrong if any of that matters. Nobody would ever play a character with a less-than-optimal Constitution and several ways to restore or negate Con damage.

In my roll20 game, we just had to jump through a trap that did 10d6 damage. My L10 Ardent was out of power, and was likely to die from that - at full health. I had to bum a powerstone from the Psi Warrior to put Vigor up. They had never realized I had had a con penalty the entire game.

[Gelcur]

I don't know Pathfinder but for 3.5

SRD, Constitution:

If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

Also,
SRD, Ability Loss:

If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.

So there is no need to keep track hp rolls and Con modifiers per level. All you need is the characters HD.


Interesting that in Pathfinder Skill Points go up when Int goes up. It seems like it would get annoying.
Fun Fact:
SRD, True Dragons:

All dragons have skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) × (Hit Dice + 3).
I'm pretty sure this instance of specific vs general. Since Dragons gain Skill Points differently they should gain retroactive skill points.

[Knaight]

I'd object to the specific term "retroactive", as it doesn't actually change what hit points you had at previous levels. That said, one of the effects of increasing Con bonus is +1 HP/HD. This applies to temporary changes as well.