Best Wizard School/Psion Discipline combination for Cerebremancer PrC?

[Arkhios]

I'm going to make a human wizard/psion and aim for Cerebremancer in our next campaign (for RP reasons, he'll start as a wizard), and I'm trying to decide which combination of school and discipline would be most thematic and/or effective.

I realize it would probably boil down to personal preferences, but I'd like to hear any suggestions (with rationale, please) as I'm currently unsure of it myself.

Stats are (with Point-Buy): Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 8, Cha 8;
Wisdom 8, again, for RP reasons.
I might roll them when the time comes to actually create the character, but for the time being, I prefer to use point-buy to have a bit more solid base to work with. If anything, the point buy distribution serves as a guideline.

Allowed player materials are restricted to Player's Handbook, Expanded Psionics Handbook (everything, except races), and Deities & Demigods (all feats; domains/spells case-by-case)

EDIT:
I believe I have found my answer, and the character will become a Diviner/Telepath with Enchantment as a forbidden school. While it sucks to lose quite a few spells from Enchantment, Telepathy compensates Enchantment remarkably well.


The character will have a feat at 1st level that lets him cast summoning spells as a standard action as long as their casting time is normally up to 1 round. The feat is part of the character's background/training, but doesn't require him to be a Conjurer (I did consider Conjurer, but I would've had to give up two schools instead of one, and I just can't decide which one apart from Enchantment, so I chose to stick with Divination specialist).
Because of the feat I have to be a specialist wizard, though. And I kinda want it, regardless of my specialization, because quick meat-shield(s) on demand are always welcome. The ability to cast summoning spells as a standard action does not, however, come without a price. I have to succeed on a Fortitude save or become fatigued afterwards.

Thus, the character will have both a familiar (rat, which gives a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves) and a Psicrystal (Hero personality, which gives him another +2 bonus on Fortitude saves, both untyped bonuses so they should stack).
Additionally, a campaign "trait" of sorts: Drug Addict, gives him yet another +1 bonus on Fortitude saves. So, despite the class combination, his highest save will be Fortitude for a very long time, and hopefully high enough to avoid becoming fatigued when I cast a horde of meat shields (obviously, I will take spell focus (conjuration) and augment summoning just to complement the special conjuration feat).
As a bonus: Rat fits perfectly with a Drug Addict who has been living in the squalor for years. Also, the psicrystal will take the form of a Quartz crystal, which looks like as if there was smoke swirling inside! :smallbiggrin:

It's possible that I will take Improved Psicrystal feat a few times so that I can get Single-Minded personality (+3 on Concentration checks is very much welcome) and, well, to gain Psicrystal special qualities earlier than I could otherwise, given my multiclass into wizard. Obviously, I will also take Psionic Body feat, because who wouldn't want extra hit points whenever you take a psionic feat to further improve your other abilities.
Also, there's a chance that I'll take Expanded Knowledge a few times, though I'm not sure about the powers for the time being.

[Nifft]

A decent stub might be Conjurer 1 / Telepath 3 / Cerebremancer 10

At level 1...
- Precocious Apprentice feat
- Abrupt Jaunt ACF
- Practiced Spellcaster maybe? But you don't really need it.

Telepath is great because you don't need to spend a feat to get Schism, and with the sheer number of effects you can throw down, you want Schism.

Conjuration and Telepathy are similar in that you throw other people at your problems.


Another solid pairing might be Transmuter / Shaper, in that you reshape yourself and you reshape reality.

[Arkhios]

A decent stub might be Conjurer 1 / Telepath 3 / Cerebremancer 10

At level 1...
- Precocious Apprentice feat
- Abrupt Jaunt ACF
- Practiced Spellcaster maybe? But you don't really need it.

I have no idea what Precocious Apprentice or Practiced Spellcaster are/do, but judging from your suggested level divide, I guess one or the other creates a loophole in access to spellcasting (2nd level spells before 3rd wizard level) and enables the suggested Wizard (any) 1/Psion (any) 3/Cerebremancer 10...

As I said in OP, we are not allowed to use anything outside PHB, XPH, and Deities&Demigods.

(While we were previously allowed to use Unearthed Arcana for Alternate Class Features etc., our DM revoked that, claiming they felt "too disconnected" from the setting)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Cerebremancer doesn't alter the picture too much from typical recommendations; Conjurer and Transmuter are still great, Egoist and Shaper are still great. Because Illusion and Necromancy provide many effects that psionics just doesn't have, it's probably a good idea to ban Evocation and Enchantment.

I do agree that schism is something you absolutely want, but I'd burn a feat for it. I'd rather be an Egoist or Shaper with Expanded Knowledge (schism) than a Telepath with Expanded Knowledge (astral construct) or (metamorphosis).

[Nifft]

I do agree that schism is something you absolutely want, but I'd burn a feat for it. I'd rather be an Egoist or Shaper with Expanded Knowledge (schism) than a Telepath with Expanded Knowledge (astral construct) or (metamorphosis).

The thing is, a Wizard can summon better than a Shaper, and a Wizard can polymorph better than an Egoist.

There's no Wizard who can schism, though. Telepath powers can also do things like suggestion earlier & cheaper than a Wizard could, and scalable charm & dominate mean relative higher-level effects paid for with relatively low-level "power known" slots.

IMHO a better reason to take Shaper might be psi minor creation (a level 1 power which emulates a strong level 4 spell) -- but astral construct isn't worth a feat, not when you can already summon & bind as a vanilla Wizard.

[DrMartin]

Shaper and egoist on the psion side, and Conjurer and Transmuter on the wizard side are commonly regarded as the strongest disciplines, and pairing them is like putting more chocolate over a chocolate cake: just as delicious. But there's a lot of alternative themes you could be picking from, maybe getting the "chocolate pick" from one side of the theurge and picking something more unusual on the other side.

Here's a couple of fun options:

One thing that psionics does poorly, if at all, it's illusions, so an illusionist / shaper would come out with its bases pretty much covered. Using psionic to shape matter while using magic to shape light and sensations, plus tapping in the plane of shadows later to bridge the real and quasi-real, has a lot going on.

Divination and information gathering is one of the things were psionics has the edge (as long as we don't consider TO's go-to divination, Contact Other Planes), with powers like Clairvoyant Sense and Remote Viewing (2nd and 4th level seer powers respectively). Seer / Conjurer is a very fun option.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The thing is, a Wizard can summon better than a Shaper, and a Wizard can polymorph better than an Egoist.Unfortunately, polymorph is limited to one size category of the recipient. Metamorphosis is not. The latter, however, is self-only unless you start getting creative.

[Nifft]

Unfortunately, polymorph is limited to one size category of the recipient. Metamorphosis is not. The latter, however, is self-only unless you start getting creative.

That's a valid technicality -- the Wizard's shape-change capability isn't strictly better. Since the feat Metamorphic Transfer exists, that's another technicality.

But overall the Wizard's shape-change capability is better, and shows up earlier, and extends further at the high end.

Alter Self, Polymorph, Draconic Polymorph, Fiendform, Poly Any Object, and Shapechange -- that's a lot of power both early and late, most of which the Egoist fails to match.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's a valid technicality -- the Wizard's shape-change capability isn't strictly better. Since the feat Metamorphic Transfer exists, that's another technicality.

But overall the Wizard's shape-change capability is better, and shows up earlier, and extends further at the high end.

Alter Self, Polymorph, Draconic Polymorph, Fiendform, Poly Any Object, and Shapechange -- that's a lot of power both early and late, most of which the Egoist fails to match.This is a considerably more valid set of statements.

[Nifft]

This is a considerably more valid set of statements.

It's just longer and with more detail.

The Wizard's summoning superiority could be similarly expanded and expounded upon.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This is a core-only no-early-entry Cerebremancer. 8ths and 9ths are likely off the table, and so are draconic polymorph and fiendform. The entirety of a discipline is about 15 powers, of which at least half are going to suck, because half of all spells and powers suck. Telepaths have schism, mindlink, and some really good high-level powers you probably won't get to use. Shapers have astral construct, quintessence, psionic fabricate (which, by RAW, creates stuff from nothing, but leaving that aside) and psionic minor creation. Egoists have hustle, psionic revivify, metamorphosis, and some crazy high-level powers you probably won't get to use. I stand by my opinion that it's better to be a Shaper or Egoist, because Telepathy is more easily replaced by EK (schism). If you really want Enchantment-type effects, you can simply not ban the spell school.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

psionic fabricate (which, by RAW, creates stuff from nothing, but leaving that aside)Regular fabricate creates stuff from nothing. Psionic fabricate, on the other hand, actually targets the stuff you're transmuting and transmutes metacreativities it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Regular fabricate creates stuff from nothing. Psionic fabricate, on the other hand, actually targets the stuff you're transmuting and transmutes metacreativities it.
Psionic fabricate doesn't require material components, unlike the spell version, which consumes the raw materials needed to create whatever it is you're fabricating. Neither effect targets anything other than a volume "up to 10 cu. ft./level".

[schreier]

I would personally go Domain Wizard - Abjuration and Telepath for the Psion.

Is there a reason you are not considering Mind Mage? Not allowed to use Dragon Magazine PrC? It is much stronger than Cerebremancer I think ...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psionic fabricate doesn't require material components, unlike the spell version, which consumes the raw materials needed to create whatever it is you're fabricating. Neither effect targets anything other than a volume "up to 10 cu. ft./level".Fabricate uses the materials as material components, meaning they are destroyed. The spell then creates new materials whole cloth (sometimes literally). That, or you need twice as much material than you want to transmute; 50% goes for material components and 50% is actually transmuted. It's somewhat unclear.

Psionic fabricate actually targets the materials and changes them without requiring 50% of it be destroyed (nor does it create new stuff out nothing).

The original spell text actually says that the "X ft/level" targeted is the materials to be transmuted.

Also, I'd go shaper for the psion discipline. There are more indispensable powers in that discipline than in any other. You can get metamorphosis and schism (the two main ones you want from egoist and telepath) for fairly cheap using psychic chirurgery. Getting all of the useful metacreativity powers is rather difficult, though. Note that the shaper is VASTLY better at what it does than magic is without some major shenanigans.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Rather than a straight suggestion of blends, how about some guidelines;

For a wizard/ psion/ cerebremancer you want to make spell/ power selections based on the strengths of each.

Psion's strength comes from the sheer flexibility of his known powers. While the number he knows is limited he can manifest any of them at will as long as he has the PP to do so and quite a lot of powers can be manifest in several different ways such as selecting energy types for various psychokinetic powers and scaling psionic charm or dominate to the creature type of the target. You'll want to pick powers that you think will come up frequently.

The wizard, on the other hand, gets his might from the variety of his spells. Whatever you want to do, there's a spell for that. However, the preparation mechanic puts a sharp limit on how many he can have quick access to at any one time, sharper still if you take advantage of the fact you don't have to fill them all at once and can prepare as needed. It's best to mostly pick spells that you either don't need often but will really save your bacon when you do or that have a massive variety of uses.

Then there's the corner cases of things that one type does and the other does it weaker or not at all like illusions and summoning on the wizard side and certain clairsentience and telepathy effects on the psion. Keep an eye out for such things.


With all of that in mind, I strongly suggest largely using your powers known to pick out combat spells and the wizard side for utility effects.

[Zombulian]

I would personally go Domain Wizard - Abjuration and Telepath for the Psion.

Is there a reason you are not considering Mind Mage? Not allowed to use Dragon Magazine PrC? It is much stronger than Cerebremancer I think ...

The OP said and repeated that he only has core + srd, and not even UA. Plus Deities and Demigods for whatever reason I guess.


Rather than a straight suggestion of blends, how about some guidelines;

For a wizard/ psion/ cerebremancer you want to make spell/ power selections based on the strengths of each.

Psion's strength comes from the sheer flexibility of his known powers. While the number he knows is limited he can manifest any of them at will as long as he has the PP to do so and quite a lot of powers can be manifest in several different ways such as selecting energy types for various psychokinetic powers and scaling psionic charm or dominate to the creature type of the target. You'll want to pick powers that you think will come up frequently.

The wizard, on the other hand, gets his might from the variety of his spells. Whatever you want to do, there's a spell for that. However, the preparation mechanic puts a sharp limit on how many he can have quick access to at any one time, sharper still if you take advantage of the fact you don't have to fill them all at once and can prepare as needed. It's best to mostly pick spells that you either don't need often but will really save your bacon when you do or that have a massive variety of uses.

Then there's the corner cases of things that one type does and the other does it weaker or not at all like illusions and summoning on the wizard side and certain clairsentience and telepathy effects on the psion. Keep an eye out for such things.


With all of that in mind, I strongly suggest largely using your powers known to pick out combat spells and the wizard side for utility effects.

This is quite sound advice.
OP, what do you want your character to be doing? Zapping things or summoning?

[Arkhios]

I would personally go Domain Wizard - Abjuration and Telepath for the Psion.

Is there a reason you are not considering Mind Mage? Not allowed to use Dragon Magazine PrC? It is much stronger than Cerebremancer I think ...

Here's a reminder from the first post:
Allowed player materials are restricted to Player's Handbook, Expanded Psionics Handbook (everything, except races), and Deities & Demigods (all feats; domains/spells case-by-case)


The OP said and repeated that he only has core + srd, and not even UA. Plus Deities and Demigods for whatever reason I guess.
Indeed. I merely listed the books I know to be available; not that I'd absolutely have to use them myself. But there are a few domains in Deities & Demigods that are allowed in the setting we play in, as well as a few decent feats, even for a non-divine character. Metamagic Feats for example.


This is quite sound advice.
OP, what do you want your character to be doing? Zapping things or summoning?

I have only a vague idea of the character in my mind, but I'll try to elaborate on it a bit more. I have to "translate" the idea from finnish to english, which - surprisingly(?) - isn't native for me, so it may require a little more effort.

Here's a little background for him:


The character was a "valedictorian" of his class in a wizarding college of a distant land, who was sent to become an exchange student for one of the most renowned wizarding colleges of the known world. Although this college teaches all eight modern schools of magic, it specializes in conjuration, and requires its pupils to pass a difficult exam in conjuration in order to graduate*. (While studies of conjuration magics was mandatory for my character, it could be that he have specialized in something else. But, I'm still not quite sure if he did. Conjuration is pretty darn awesome school, what with most (if not all) of its spells being able to ignore spell resistance entirely.)

Anyway, he did graduate from there, so he does have a decent expertise in conjuration (represented via a campaign related feat that lets him cast summoning spells as a standard action, even if he wasn't a conjurer); therefore, whatever his specialization is, one of the banned schools can't be conjuration.

Something did go wrong in the graduation exam, however, because afterwards he began to hear voices "that aren't really there". This led him to seek remedies to quiet these voices down. The remedy he found came in the form of drugs, and using them quickly spiraled him down into the gutter. Granted, he wasn't that exemplary as a student, as he did party like any other student would have, so he knew people with "connections", which made it easier for him to be "exposed to" bad habits.

What I want him to be doing? From what I've spoken to my co-players about their characters, I'm going to be the only arcane spellcaster in our group, so the choice of school is all the more difficult, as I think I'd like to be able to do pretty much anything. But given the nature of the college, he can't be an universalist, so I have to choose one specialization.

As for the psion side, I believe I want it to complement the chosen school and compensate whatever I'm unable to cast as a wizard of that school.

Actually, with all that put into words, I guess I could go with the Conjurer, choosing evocation and enchantment as my forbidden schools, because the way I see it, the various energy powers of Psion are simply better than evocation spells, and telepathy powers seem to be doing much of what enchantment would do as well. Then again, if I went with Diviner, I'd have to give up only one school, right?

I must admit that I like the concept of a kineticist a lot, but is it really necessary to be a kineticist to have a wide repertoire of destructive power?

.
.
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*: Some of you may have recognized it from its' description, but the college in question is indeed Acadamae of Korvosa, in Golarion (the Pathfinder Campaign Setting). Our DM decided that, for as far as we can and our group remains interested, he would run us through all Pathfinder Adventure Paths in chronological order, using the rules they were written for, which means that the first 4 use D&D 3.5 edition.
Our next campaign will be Curse of the Crimson Throne, which, I believe, takes place within one city for the length of the entire campaign. I have no idea how far it'll take our characters so for now I've decided to forget levels byond 16 (ergo, beyond Cerebremancer's 10th level).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Fabricate uses the materials as material components, meaning they are destroyed. The spell then creates new materials whole cloth (sometimes literally). That, or you need twice as much material than you want to transmute; 50% goes for material components and 50% is actually transmuted. It's somewhat unclear.

Psionic fabricate actually targets the materials and changes them without requiring 50% of it be destroyed (nor does it create new stuff out nothing).

The original spell text actually says that the "X ft/level" targeted is the materials to be transmuted.
The spell text does not say that the target must contain the base materials needed to craft the item nonmagically. It says: "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material". You can, for example, convert a 1" cube of wood into a bridge, which is what psionic fabricate relies on. Now, this is a stupid interpretation, so you can rule that the area must contain all the base materials you'd need to craft the item nonmagically.

If you require that fabricate targets the full base materials, you need twice as much of your base materials for the arcane version, and the usual amount for the psionic version.
If you require that fabricate targets an area containing some material, the arcane version uses the usual amount of base materials, and the psionic version uses no base materials at all.

Either way, the psionic version is one level lower, and much cheaper. It's a good spell, is my point, especially when paired with psionic minor creation (which also has no material component).

[Andry]

Since the OP doesn't really want to limit themselves I would go diviner wizard side banning evocation. There is more than enough blasty spells in conjuration and blasty powers on the psion side to make up for losing evocation. Telepath on the Psion is what I would go with. Two reasons for that 1. it would explain the voices your character heard and 2. it is always fun to mind-fuggle people.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Even better, go into thrallherd and flavor your minions as independent (but loyal) mental projections that are personifications of the mental voices. Perhaps they're escaping from the Far Realm?

You could also make them symbiotes in homage to Starry Eyes (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/starry-eyes-worm-lovecraft-mythos.280463/#post-12709144).

[Arkhios]

Even better, go into thrallherd and flavor your minions as independent (but loyal) mental projections that are personifications of the mental voices. Perhaps they're escaping from the Far Realm?

You could also make them symbiotes in homage to Starry Eyes (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/starry-eyes-worm-lovecraft-mythos.280463/#post-12709144).

Yeah... about Thrallherd.

I still have bad memories (traumatic might be a bit too strong word for a game having been played, but somewhat close to that) about a player who played a Thrallherd. He would eventually resort to "PvP" and dominate even his own allies to do whatever he wanted because, as I recall, a Thrallherd could do that. At any rate, it was my first impression of the prestige class and it's kinda stuck. I decided then and there that I would never play a Thrallherd. Never. And I intend to stay behind that decision.

Anyway, I'm currently wrestling between going Diviner with Evocation as forbidden school, or Conjurer with both Evocation and Enchantment as forbidden schools.

As a Diviner, I agree that Telepath might be thematically fitting for the voices he keeps hearing, but I'm wondering if I would regret not having access to several pretty cool kineticist-only powers. While it seems that Control Body has a fixed DC (not augmentable, at least on its' own) and thus it's pretty weak in retrospect, it's still quite cool to be able to take control over another's limbs. Also, it's a shame that Expanded Knowledge lets you choose powers only up to one lower than the highest power level I'm able to manifest. Energy Burst, while amazing visually, is a bit more hazardous than Energy Ball, because Energy Burst is a 40ft. radius burst centered on you, while Energy Ball is essentially just a Fireball with more options.


...actually, I just realized that if I became a Diviner, forbidding Enchantment instead, and then take Telepathy to compensate. I could then take Fireball as a spell as normal, and maybe take the Energy Substitution metamagic feat (it's from Deities&Demigods, btw) so that I can alter its' damage type at no further cost.

What do you think of that?

[Nifft]

Yeah... about Thrallherd.

I still have bad memories (traumatic might be a bit too strong word for a game having been played, but somewhat close to that) about a player who played a Thrallherd. He would eventually resort to "PvP" and dominate even his own allies to do whatever he wanted because, as I recall, a Thrallherd could do that. At any rate, it was my first impression of the prestige class and it's kinda stuck. I decided then and there that I would never play a Thrallherd. Never. And I intend to stay behind that decision. That was just the player being a jerk with powers that are conventionally used against monsters, not PCs.

Wizards and Psions both have access to dominate vs. humanoids, and it's quite rare to have that power pointed at fellow PCs.

That player was just a jerk.

The main feature of Thrallherd is that you get free, disposable NPC minions which you can throw at problems.


Anyway, I'm currently wrestling between going Diviner with Evocation as forbidden school, or Conjurer with both Evocation and Enchantment as forbidden schools.

As a Diviner, I agree that Telepath might be thematically fitting for the voices he keeps hearing, but I'm wondering if I would regret not having access to several pretty cool kineticist-only powers. While it seems that Control Body has a fixed DC (not augmentable, at least on its' own) and thus it's pretty weak in retrospect, it's still quite cool to be able to take control over another's limbs. Also, it's a shame that Expanded Knowledge lets you choose powers only up to one lower than the highest power level I'm able to manifest. Energy Burst, while amazing visually, is a bit more hazardous than Energy Ball, because Energy Burst is a 40ft. radius burst centered on you, while Energy Ball is essentially just a Fireball with more options.


...actually, I just realized that if I became a Diviner, forbidding Enchantment instead, and then take Telepathy to compensate. I could then take Fireball as a spell as normal, and maybe take the Energy Substitution metamagic feat (it's from Deities&Demigods, btw) so that I can alter its' damage type at no further cost.

What do you think of that? Energy Wall is on the regular Psion list and it's decent for flexible damage & battlefield control.

Energy bolt isn't as good as energy ball, but it's still decent if you need a way to damage a bunch of monsters with a flexible energy type.

Energy stun doesn't scale well in terms of damage, but the DC scaling is amazing, and the damage type is flexible.


I think you don't need to go Kinetecist even if you want to use your Psion side for energy damage... but there's nothing really wrong with Kinetecist. You'll have enough Wizard utility to compensate.


One overall character suggestion: Hidden Talent as one of your level 1 feats, to represent the fact that you were always struggling with Psionic powers even as a Wizard school student. This also gives you one level 1 Discipline power (or Psychic Warrior power) for free, so this could be your Astral Construct or your Psi Minor Creation.

[Arkhios]

That was just the player being a jerk with powers that are conventionally used against monsters, not PCs.

Wizards and Psions both have access to dominate vs. humanoids, and it's quite rare to have that power pointed at fellow PCs.

That player was just a jerk.

The main feature of Thrallherd is that you get free, disposable NPC minions which you can throw at problems.

Energy Wall is on the regular Psion list and it's decent for flexible damage & battlefield control.

Energy bolt isn't as good as energy ball, but it's still decent if you need a way to damage a bunch of monsters with a flexible energy type.

Energy stun doesn't scale well in terms of damage, but the DC scaling is amazing, and the damage type is flexible.


I think you don't need to go Kinetecist even if you want to use your Psion side for energy damage... but there's nothing really wrong with Kinetecist. You'll have enough Wizard utility to compensate.


One overall character suggestion: Hidden Talent as one of your level 1 feats, to represent the fact that you were always struggling with Psionic powers even as a Wizard school student. This also gives you one level 1 Discipline power (or Psychic Warrior power) for free, so this could be your Astral Construct or your Psi Minor Creation.

Yeah, I know it was the player being a jerk, but it still echoes in the back of my head whenever I look at Thrallherd. Plus, I'm still more interested in Cerebremancer.

Regarding Hidden Talent, it's not in XPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook), so no chance taking it. Thank you for the suggestion, but I'd like that people (not just you) would pay a little bit more attention to the parameters I am allowed to build my character with. It's not that I didn't want to, I just have to.

[Nifft]

Regarding Hidden Talent, it's not in XPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook)

It's at the bottom of page 67, in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

It's an optional feat, not in the main feats section -- but it's perfect for your split-personality character who starts out with hidden talents.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Energy substitution isn't spectacular on a Cerebremancer (or in core in general); you can take one energy power to achieve the same versatility, and it'll save you a feat. Unless you're heavily specializing into arcane blasting (for which Cerebremancer is not that suitable), one power will be just fine.

If you feel that Telepath best describes your character, just go Telepath. Alongside Telepath, any specialization with Enchantment banned makes sense; the second school can be Evocation, but also Necromancy. Psionics won't get you Necromancy to compensate, but plenty of characters don't use it for thematic reasons anyway, so it may not matter to you.

[Arkhios]

It's at the bottom of page 67, in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

It's an optional feat, not in the main feats section -- but it's perfect for your split-personality character who starts out with hidden talents.

Oops! Hadn't noticed that since it wasn't included with the other feats.

...although it's certainly thematic, I'm not sure if I want to distribute points into charisma just so I could manifest that one power from the feat, even if I took it for thematic appropriateness.
Unless I end up rolling my stats which is still a distinct possibility.

Edit: except that Psionics isn't that common in the world that my DM would allow the feat. I asked.

[Zombulian]

Anyway, I'm currently wrestling between going Diviner with Evocation as forbidden school, or Conjurer with both Evocation and Enchantment as forbidden schools.

As a Diviner, I agree that Telepath might be thematically fitting for the voices he keeps hearing, but I'm wondering if I would regret not having access to several pretty cool kineticist-only powers. While it seems that Control Body has a fixed DC (not augmentable, at least on its' own) and thus it's pretty weak in retrospect, it's still quite cool to be able to take control over another's limbs. Also, it's a shame that Expanded Knowledge lets you choose powers only up to one lower than the highest power level I'm able to manifest. Energy Burst, while amazing visually, is a bit more hazardous than Energy Ball, because Energy Burst is a 40ft. radius burst centered on you, while Energy Ball is essentially just a Fireball with more options.


...actually, I just realized that if I became a Diviner, forbidding Enchantment instead, and then take Telepathy to compensate. I could then take Fireball as a spell as normal, and maybe take the Energy Substitution metamagic feat (it's from Deities&Demigods, btw) so that I can alter its' damage type at no further cost.

What do you think of that?

I'd probably say that going Conjurer is just fine. There are enough blasting Powers on the general psion list and as others have said, Telepath will give you early access to goodies like Suggestion and Dominate.
Hidden Talent is excellent for picking up neat utility powers (Minor Creation is incredible, if you're already a Conjurer you can probably do without Astral Construct) if your DM approves.

[AnimeTheCat]

Why specialize at all? It gets you 1 additional spell per day but you forbid 2 entire schools. Since you're not using the UA variants and you can't be a focused specialist, that's really it. +1 spell per day, -2 schools if magic.

I would suggest being a generalist and picking whatever discipline you will most regularly use, utilizing you wizard spells for utility, buffing, and the sort with the occasional scroll for support.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Why specialize at all? It gets you 1 additional spell per day but you forbid 2 entire schools. Since you're not using the UA variants and you can't be a focused specialist, that's really it. +1 spell per day, -2 schools if magic.

I would suggest being a generalist and picking whatever discipline you will most regularly use, utilizing you wizard spells for utility, buffing, and the sort with the occasional scroll for support.
Focused Specialist is in Complete Mage, not Unearthed Arcana. UA has the Domain Wizard, which is the ACF that makes generalists shine.

Specialization is generally good because you get a lot more spell slots of the stronger schools of magic, while losing the schools that have few worthwhile spells.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why specialize at all? It gets you 1 additional spell per day but you forbid 2 entire schools. Since you're not using the UA variants and you can't be a focused specialist, that's really it. +1 spell per day, -2 schools if magic.

I would suggest being a generalist and picking whatever discipline you will most regularly use, utilizing you wizard spells for utility, buffing, and the sort with the occasional scroll for support.

It's 1 spell slot per level, not just one slot. That's a pretty substantial difference, really. On a straight wizard, I'd skip it unless I was -really- keen to use some option that required specialization. This is a cerebremancer though. Banning the schools that will be mirrored by your psionic power selections is basically nullifying the cost to get the bonus slots. It's a pretty obvious move.

[Zombulian]

It's 1 spell slot per level, not just one slot. That's a pretty substantial difference, really. On a straight wizard, I'd skip it unless I was -really- keen to use some option that required specialization. This is a cerebremancer though. Banning the schools that will be mirrored by your psionic power selections is basically nullifying the cost to get the bonus slots. It's a pretty obvious move.

Also OP said that for RP reasons he can't be a generalist.

[AnimeTheCat]

Focused Specialist is in Complete Mage, not Unearthed Arcana. UA has the Domain Wizard, which is the ACF that makes generalists shine.

Specialization is generally good because you get a lot more spell slots of the stronger schools of magic, while losing the schools that have few worthwhile spells.

I was just listing options I knew were unavailable, like the acfs for specialists (located in UA), and the focused specialist (book not listed because I was afb and unable to recall the book). I wasn't saying Focused Specialist was in UA.

By "you get a lot more spell slots of the stronger schools of magic" you mean you get one more spell slot (per level) of a single stronger school of magic, not schools, but you lose access to two entire schools of magic. If, for instance, evocation and necromancy were picked, the OP would have no way to get Contingency and the Craft Contingent Spell feat is not available for selection due to available resources. Further, the OP would not have access to many debuffing effects from the necromancy school that are not replicated in psionic, such as my favorites Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaustion.

I would agree that some schools have few worthwhile spells, if all resources are available. That is not the case here and that means that each school does have some worthwhile spells that aren't replicated by psionics.


Also OP said that for RP reasons he can't be a generalist.

And I must have missed that... bummer... I second divination specialization and covering your empty base.


It's 1 spell slot per level, not just one slot. That's a pretty substantial difference, really. On a straight wizard, I'd skip it unless I was -really- keen to use some option that required specialization. This is a cerebremancer though. Banning the schools that will be mirrored by your psionic power selections is basically nullifying the cost to get the bonus slots. It's a pretty obvious move.

Noted, so yeah, I agree with the divination specialization tactic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Noted, so yeah, I agree with the divination specialization tactic.

Eh, psionics does enchantment and evocation better than magic, generally speaking, and does divination just as well.

I'd seriously look at specializing in either illusion or necromancy, which psionics can't really do at all, since conjurations and transmutation are generally one per encounter and abjuration only really comes up against high-magic foes.

That's my 2cp.

[Rebel7284]

I was just listing options I knew were unavailable, like the acfs for specialists (located in UA), and the focused specialist (book not listed because I was afb and unable to recall the book). I wasn't saying Focused Specialist was in UA.

By "you get a lot more spell slots of the stronger schools of magic" you mean you get one more spell slot (per level) of a single stronger school of magic, not schools, but you lose access to two entire schools of magic. If, for instance, evocation and necromancy were picked, the OP would have no way to get Contingency and the Craft Contingent Spell feat is not available for selection due to available resources. Further, the OP would not have access to many debuffing effects from the necromancy school that are not replicated in psionic, such as my favorites Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaustion.

I would agree that some schools have few worthwhile spells, if all resources are available. That is not the case here and that means that each school does have some worthwhile spells that aren't replicated by psionics.



And I must have missed that... bummer... I second divination specialization and covering your empty base.



Noted, so yeah, I agree with the divination specialization tactic.

Necromancy is a fairly powerful school in the long run. However, you can get around banning necromancy by... not doing it.... seriously, Enchantment is way way weaker, especially with psionics giving you scaling charm if you end up needing it.
Contingency is the one and only spell in evocation truly worth worrying about. You can still get it with Greater Shadow Evocation, but that may come too late for this character. With that said, with 3 lost caster levels, Contingency itself may come too late as well....

So ban Evocation and Enchantment and lose almost nothing in exchange for more of the spells you want.

[Nifft]

Just to contradict my own previous suggestions...

Instead of using one side to cover the deficits of the other, you could instead double-down on an archetype.


You are the lord of time & space: Conjurer + Nomad, load up on extra actions & teleport effects -- even without Abrupt Jaunt you'll have amazing tactical control; effects like time hop, schism, and time stop complete the package, so do pick up EK(schism) and don't ban Transmutation.

You are the master of fate & foresight: Diviner + Seer, and here the effects are different enough that you can legitimately benefit from this confluence.

You are the weaver of flesh: Transmutation + Egoist, and there's even some decent synergy on the base Psion list for a self-transforming gish.

You are the sculptor of matter: Transmutation + Shaper, but don't do self-poly effects. (Transmutation is huge and supports a lot of archetypes.)

You see dead people, sometimes they work for you: Necromancer + Seer, with the object reading and psychic impressions type powers -- which are fluffed as you talking to the spirits of things.



In a vacuum, my impulse is to maximize power, but that's not the only way to play.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How is your magic/psionics transparency? Because if you're in full transparency mode, psionics does have psionic contingency... Also psychic reformation to shuffle it in and out as needed. I'd take Linked Power so you only need one round to manifest it, as well. If you had access to Extra Spell, that might be a good way to get emergency spells, too.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How is your magic/psionics transparency? Because if you're in full transparency mode, psionics does have psionic contingency... Also psychic reformation to shuffle it in and out as needed. I'd take Linked Power so you only need one round to manifest it, as well. If you had access to Extra Spell, that might be a good way to get emergency spells, too.

No linked power. SRD minus the UA stuff only.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No linked power. SRD minus the UA stuff only.Gah. You're right.

This causes me pain.

[Arkhios]

How is your magic/psionics transparency? Because if you're in full transparency mode, psionics does have psionic contingency... Also psychic reformation to shuffle it in and out as needed. I'd take Linked Power so you only need one round to manifest it, as well. If you had access to Extra Spell, that might be a good way to get emergency spells, too.
Hmm. Since psionics isn't that common (but still acknowledged to be a thing) in the setting, I guess we are in full transparency mode.


Gah. You're right.

This causes me pain.

I am, on the other hand, relieved that I don't have to scour through dozens of books to make the "cookie-cutter build". :smalltongue:

When I was younger, it was one of my biggest joys of 3.5. Now, I guess I'm just too old for that. Or maybe I'm just too busy because of my responsibilities as an adult... (meh... why can't I just be teenager forever!)

[Zombulian]

Hmm. Since psionics isn't that common (but still acknowledged to be a thing) in the setting, I guess we are in full transparency mode.



I am, on the other hand, relieved that I don't have to scour through dozens of books to make the "cookie-cutter build". :smalltongue:

When I was younger, it was one of my biggest joys of 3.5. Now, I guess I'm just too old for that. Or maybe I'm just too busy because of my responsibilities as an adult... (meh... why can't I just be teenager forever!)

Hm well it may have to do with you being Finnish, but I don't think cookie cutter means what you think it means.

[Arkhios]

Hm well it may have to do with you being Finnish, but I don't think cookie cutter means what you think it means.

I know what it means. But, it's also a gaming term (dating back to diablo 2, and currently also used in WoW) that indicates overpowered character(s) (build of class) that easily dominate the environment (in the context of diablo 2, PvM and PvP) and (therefore) are massively common.


Energy substitution isn't spectacular on a Cerebremancer (or in core in general); you can take one energy power to achieve the same versatility, and it'll save you a feat. Unless you're heavily specializing into arcane blasting (for which Cerebremancer is not that suitable), one power will be just fine.

If you feel that Telepath best describes your character, just go Telepath. Alongside Telepath, any specialization with Enchantment banned makes sense; the second school can be Evocation, but also Necromancy. Psionics won't get you Necromancy to compensate, but plenty of characters don't use it for thematic reasons anyway, so it may not matter to you.

Hmm. I suppose Energy Substitution isn't as good on a Cerebremancer.

Subdual Substitution might, however, become handy in situations where we want to avoid innocent casualties (which is probably quite often, considering that the campaign takes place in a big city). A fireball that does non-lethal damage instead of fire would be immensely awesome, and since non-lethal damage probably doesn't have any visual cue, it might fit perfectly for the theme, no?

[Celestia]

I know what it means. But, it's also a gaming term (dating back to diablo 2, and currently also used in WoW) that indicates overpowered character(s) (build of class) that easily dominate the environment (in the context of diablo 2, PvM and PvP) and (therefore) are massively common.
The term is also commonly used in TCG games like Magic and Yugioh. Certain universally powerful cards that fit in any deck are called "cookie cards," and decks with lots of these common, powerful cards are called "cookie decks."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hmm. Since psionics isn't that common (but still acknowledged to be a thing) in the setting, I guess we are in full transparency mode.You should be able to use psionic contingency on spells or powers either one, then, so you don't have to worry overmuch about losing contingency by banning evocation. And you can even get it back once you hit shadow evocation.

[Arkhios]

You should be able to use psionic contingency on spells or powers either one, then, so you don't have to worry overmuch about losing contingency by banning evocation. And you can even get it back once you hit shadow evocation.

Admittedly, an Illusionist could be fun combination with the character's tendencies to use drugs. "I hear and see things that aren't real, and now you do too!"

But, I think I might still choose Diviner just because I don't like the idea to give up two schools that much. Giving up evocation I could cope with, especially with the energy damage powers and, as suggested, with psionic contingency or shadow evocation.

I guess I could drop Enchantment as well (or Necromancy, because I've never been a big fan of it in D&D), and choose Conjurer, because there is an RP reason for it, too.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Don't forget that necromancy isn't just the creation and control of undead. It's toying with the fundamental forces of positive and negative energy. There are quite a number of interesting and potent buffs and debuffs in there; stuff like false life and bestow curse.

[Arkhios]

Don't forget that necromancy isn't just the creation and control of undead. It's toying with the fundamental forces of positive and negative energy. There are quite a number of interesting and potent buffs and debuffs in there; stuff like false life and bestow curse.

FFuuuuuuuu! Ok, that settles it. The character is going to be a Diviner/Telepath with Enchantment as a forbidden school. Losing Enchantment spells is causing me the least amount of trouble. :smallbiggrin: