How well does an All Archtype Fighter match up versus Tier 1 casters?

[The Shadowmind]

Okay at levels 1,5,10, and 15, how well is the All-archtype Fighter does in solving a variety of encounters versus how tell the Tier 1 Pathfinder classes handle the same type of encounters. We are using the Tier list from here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=11990.0) for the competition.

The Arch-Fighter will gain all the benefits from these (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/) archetypes, and trades nothing out to gain the benefits. If two archetypes add the same ability the fighter takes best, and/or the fastest progression.

In a separate category, we will include DSP archetypes, such as the Myrmidon, Psionic Fighter, and the Akashic Warrior.


What are combat, and non-combat encounters that the characters could end up facing throughout duration of an adventure?


The characters should be judged based on resources used, how long it take the complete the encounter/event, and how likey the are to succeed if success is not guaranteed.

[Florian]

"All archetypes" is nor really interesting. Less than a hand full will do, even with all the drawbacks. That's just a goodie.

Base race is Fetchling for Plane Shift, base build is a bog-standard Iron Caster mixed with the Viking archetype to also build the standard AM Barbarian, Weapon Master to speed things up and Varisian Free-Style Fighter to be more flexible and that's it. Access to most important spells as SLA before even a Wizard has them? Check. Ubercharger build in? Check. Teleport/Plane Shift pounce? Check.

[grarrrg]

End of the day Fighter is still mostly a Fighter.
Most of the archetype bells and whistles together only bump him up about half a tier.

One of the (minor) issues is that you can't use a Ranged/2-handed/1-handed/Unarmed/Shield/Free Hand at the same time while wearing Heavy/Medium/Light/No Armor.
In other words, even if you get the benefits of 'every' archetype, you can't necessarily _use_ the benefits most of the time.
Flexibility? Yes. Useful Flexibility? Not so much.

One of the few standout archetypes would be Child of War, which gives Bloodrager-ish casting. Which still leaves our Fighter at either the top of tier 4, or the bottom of tier 3.

[VictoriousLoL]

Most fighter Archetypes aren't really that great and focus on a specific type of fighting. Having 'all archetypes' doesn't give much of a benefit, really.

[The Shadowmind]

End of the day Fighter is still mostly a Fighter.
Most of the archetype bells and whistles together only bump him up about half a tier.

One of the (minor) issues is that you can't use a Ranged/2-handed/1-handed/Unarmed/Shield/Free Hand at the same time while wearing Heavy/Medium/Light/No Armor.
In other words, even if you get the benefits of 'every' archetype, you can't necessarily _use_ the benefits most of the time.
Flexibility? Yes. Useful Flexibility? Not so much.

One of the few standout archetypes would be Child of War, which gives Bloodrager-ish casting. Which still leaves our Fighter at either the top of tier 4, or the bottom of tier 3.

Yeah, most of the Archetypes aren't giving you much, or are very situational.
The big ones are:
Viking(Rage and Rage Powers)
Relic Master for boosting the Iron caster trick mentioned ealier.
Seasoned Commander for skill points, and Inspire Courage
Free-Style Fighter for Martial Flexibility(for the Iron caster trick and versatility), and Multi-style feats(This becomes more relevant if using Path of War)
Child of War for the Bloodrage spells.
Eldritch Guardian for the Familiar that gets your combat feats.
Mutation Warrior for source of flight.
And Lore Warden for +2 skill points, and Know Thy Enemy.


With 3PP: Akashic Warrior for the Bonus Essence, and Myrmidon for Maunvers which you'll want to trade one disciple for Radiant Dawn for the healing, buffing, and condition breaking abilities, which Akashic Warrior happens to give you more essence to invest into.

[P.F.]

So it looks like the Arch-Fighter's main tier-altering benefits would be ... cast spells like a Sorcerer Bloodrager and have Barbarian rage?

So the best an Arch-Fighter can do is be a knock-off Bloodrager//Barbarian?

[grarrrg]

So it looks like the Arch-Fighter's main tier-altering benefits would be ... cast spells like a Sorcerer Bloodrager and have Barbarian rage?

Well, if you read all the "Gets 4 Skill/level instead of 2" archetypes as "gets +2 Skill Ranks" instead, then you're at....*whistles* 14 Skills+INT every level. Taking them at strict 4 Skill/level still leaves you with 10 Skills/level though (reminder that due to Child of War casting you don't want to dump INT anyway).
Child of War, Seasoned Commander, and Tactician all have "4 skills/level".
Armiger, Lore Warden and Seasoned Commander all get "+2 skills"

This is definitely enough to be a very solid Skill Monkey. Note that Fighters get very little in the way of Skill Boosting abilities. So you're mostly stuck at Ranks+Stat+3. So you'll be Good at a lot of skills, but not Great.


The various Bravery replacements also add quite a few situational defense bonuses (AC/Saves), so you'll be quite slippery in that regard. But not much better than a Paladin with a decent CHA score.


Fun Section (doesn't affect power level much, just neat tricks)
Bonus shout out to Dragoon+Phalanx Soldier
Dragoon can use a Lance as a Reach AND non-reach weapon simultaneously (and better damage on Polearm 'Weapon Training').
Phalanx Soldier can use a Polearm as a 1-handed weapon if they're also using a Shield.
Throw a Buckler on there and you can freely mix-n-match fighting style on the fly: Threatening all squares, getting +AC when you want, and +Damage (2handed) when you want.
And/Or put Tower Shield Specialist on there, just use the Lance 1-handed, but negate all the penalties Tower Shields have.

[Bucky]

So it looks like the Arch-Fighter's main tier-altering benefits would be ... cast spells like a Sorcerer Bloodrager and have Barbarian rage?

So the best an Arch-Fighter can do is be a knock-off Bloodrager//Barbarian?

With spontaneous access to Greater-tier combat maneuver feats (Martial Master) with +lots to CMB (Lore Warden and a few others).

And several ways to do a lot of damage, given how many small stackable bonuses are available.

If the fighter gets all AWT+AAT options, she gets some nice defenses like Armor Sacrifice, and since she doesn't lose bonus for them, techniques like Fighter's Reflexes get significantly better.
---------------------------------------------
Here's a tally of the bonus feats, skill ranks and borrowed class features from Paizo archetypes. Abilities that are worded as restrictions on bonus feat selection, rather than bonus feats that replace bonus feats, weren't counted.

skill ranks:
Base 4 (Child of War)
+2 Armiger (Intimidate, Know Planes)
+2 Lore Warden (any Int skills)
+2 Opportunist (Bluff, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand or Stealth)

extra bonus feats:
Arcane Strike (Dragonheir 1) - the effect normally doesn't scale because a Dragonheir because lacks a caster level, but we have one from another archetype!
Diehard (Unbreakable 1)
Endurance (Unbreakable 1)
Improved Dirty Trick (Opportunist 1)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Unarmed Fighter 1)
Mobility (Swarm Fighter 1)
Mounted Combat (Dragoon 1)
Skill focus: Ride (Dragoon 1)
Weapon Focus (Steelbound 1)
any Style feat (Unarmed Fighter 1)
Cleave (Corsair 2)
Combat Expertise (Lore Warden 2)
Combat Reflexes (High Guardian 2)
1-5 bonus teamwork feats (Swarm Fighter 2,6,10,14,18)
Catch Off-Guard (Cad 3)
Bodyguard with restrictions (High Guardian 4)
In Harm's Way with restrictions (High Guardian 4)
1-5 extra combat feats (Swarm Fighter 4,8,12,16,20)
Heroic Recovery (Unbreakable 5)
1-3 temporary combat feats (Martial Master 5, 9, 14)
Dazzling Display (Dragonheir 6)
Great Cleave (Corsair 6)
Heroic Defiance (Unbreakable 9)
Stand Still (Brawler 13)
Step Up (Swarm Fighter 13)
Pinpoint Targeting (Crossbowman 15)
Following Step (Swarm Fighter 17)

3 sharable Teamwork feats from the borrowed Tactician class feature. (2, 9, 17)

Borrowed class features:
Alchemist bombs (Opportunist)
Alchemist mutagens and discoveries (Mutation Warrior)
Barbarian uncanny dodge line (Sensate)
Bard inspire courage, greatness and heroics (Seasoned Commander)
Bloodrager casting (Child of War)
Brawler martial flexibility (Free-Style Fighter)
Cavalier banner (Dragoon)
Cavalier tactician line (Drill Sergeant and Seasoned Commander)
Ranger quarry line with restrictions (Vengeful Hunter)
Rogue talents (Opportunist)
Wizard familiar (Eldrich Guardian)


Movement options:
Swim speed = base (Aquanaut 3)
Fly 60 (Dragonheir 15)


That looks like a pretty solid high T4-low T3 even without any of the unique fighter abilities.
---------------------------------------------
Arch-fighters get some notable combos:
Two weapon warrior + Two Handed Fighter + Thunderstriker : TWF a two handed weapon with buckler bashes and ignore the penalties. Also, stack double strength bonus to damage and double Weapon Training replacements. Add Roughrider's Leap from the Saddle ability to get in and full attack right away, or forgo one attack on your super pounce with Rapid Attack (Mobile Fighter)

Devastating Blow (Two Handed Fighter 19) + Weapon Mastery (Vanilla Fighter) - Melee attack at -5. A hit is automatically a crit threat and automatically confirmed. This has synergy with other features like Eye Gouge (Unarmed Fighter - free Dirty Trick on crit), but can be further augmented with feats like Stunning Critical, with +4 to the save DC (Weapon Master).

Some combat maneuvers chain as free actions! Sunder -> Bullrush (Smashing Style, Unarmed Fighter bonus feat) -> Trip (Foehammer) and Overrun (Siegebreaker)

You get AoO shennanigans. Start with Combat Reflexes based on Str (High Guardian), and take TwF AoOs (TWW) with enough bonuses to compensate for the penalties. Get an extra Weapon Training replacement stack, if using a polearm-buckler combo (Polearm Master + Thunderstriker). Also, get free AoOs when:
* You are hit by a melee attack (Defender 10 1/round; Swordlord 11 by spending an immediate action)
* You trip someone (Greater Trip, selected as Swarm Fighter bonus feat)
* You overrun someone (Greater Overrun, selected as bonus feat)
* 5' steps or Withdraws, but only to prevent movement rather than damage (Pin Down, selected as bonus feat)
* Falls prone, unarmed AoO only (Vicious Stomp, Swarm Fighter bonus feat)
* All the normal stuff that provokes AoOs

[vasilidor]

I think this character would be good at making things die. especially since a lot of the bonuses stack, not all I believe, but a lot of them. your armor class is going to be outrageous, especially if you actually get proper wealth by level. the damage booster i know to stack would be mutagen and rage, along with weapon training. a normal fighter with wealth by level can get an AC of well into the 50-60 range, yours will be higher most likely. if the skill slot and skill chips from the tech book are available those could seriously boost your mundane skill versatility. with one version of lore warden giving you a large boost in crit fishing, and while some of the boost you could give yourself would be mutually exclusive, you may actually be better off... not raging... not sure. and given the spells available, you might just break into tier 3.
mind I am assuming that you will have access to the sorts of thing that some of these things grant bonuses to using.

[grarrrg]

Two weapon warrior + Two Handed Fighter + Thunderstriker : TWF a two handed weapon with buckler bashes and ignore the penalties.

You can't 2-hand AND Buckler bash in the same round.
Unless I'm missing it, I don't see anything in Thunderstriker (or the others) that overrides the default rules (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9).

[NightbringerGGZ]

The fighter archetypes (at best) will give you Bloodrager style spell casting, which can't compete with the caster classes you'll find at Tier 1 and 2. Combining all archetypes won't help that much either, most of the abilities don't blend well together. You could probably come up with some random combination of abilities that are useful in certain situations, but that still won't take you past Tier 3.

I'm of the opinion that a Fighter who can make use of all the available resources in PF lands at a solid Tier 3. You can easily build one to take on the role of primary combatant, which they excel in. You can do so while also boosting their skills per level into the 8+Int range and picking up a few very useful SLAs. If you toss in Variant Multiclassing, you'll be in even better shape.

That easily fits the bill of "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate."

My favorite Odd build is Tactician Fighter, VMC Bard which can combine certain feats and traits to be an amazing party buffer and decent skill monkey. Main issue is that the build isn't great in early levels, but it starts being useful around level 6-7 and hits full power at level 11.

[Gnaeus]

The fighter archetypes (at best) will give you Bloodrager style spell casting, which can't compete with the caster classes you'll find at Tier 1 and 2. Combining all archetypes won't help that much either, most of the abilities don't blend well together. You could probably come up with some random combination of abilities that are useful in certain situations, but that still won't take you past Tier 3.

I'm of the opinion that a Fighter who can make use of all the available resources in PF lands at a solid Tier 3. You can easily build one to take on the role of primary combatant, which they excel in. You can do so while also boosting their skills per level into the 8+Int range and picking up a few very useful SLAs. If you toss in Variant Multiclassing, you'll be in even better shape.

That easily fits the bill of "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate."

My favorite Odd build is Tactician Fighter, VMC Bard which can combine certain feats and traits to be an amazing party buffer and decent skill monkey. Main issue is that the build isn't great in early levels, but it starts being useful around level 6-7 and hits full power at level 11.

I would agree with this. It’s a solid T3, with or without DSP.

To answer OP...
Level 1 it beats the T1 caster.
Level 5 it beats the T1 caster in situations involving combat.
Level 10 it has parity with T1 caster in situations involving combat, or beats them if DSP
Level 15 the caster is better. If DSP fighter retains advantage in a few niches (there are a few maneuvers I can’t easily duplicate with spells.)
Level 20 caster wins hard.

I’d add that the bonus feats are often less useless/situational than they appear. My review of low tier gestalts really highlighted that a pile of useless combat feats often lets you springboard into feats farther up the chain that can be quite decent.

[Bucky]

You can't 2-hand AND Buckler bash in the same round.
Unless I'm missing it, I don't see anything in Thunderstriker (or the others) that overrides the default rules (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9).

Thunderstriker gains the ability to bash with bucklers at 7th level. But that FAQ doesn't take Thunderstriker (or Buckler Duelist) into account, so it doesn't mention bucklers at all.

[grarrrg]

Thunderstriker gains the ability to bash with bucklers at 7th level. But that FAQ doesn't take Thunderstriker (or Buckler Duelist) into account, so it doesn't mention bucklers at all.

Being able to buckler bash doesn't change anything.
The FAQ, while not specifically mentioning bucklers (because they are not normally an option), shows clear enough intent:
"you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks"

Your buckler hand is busy, no attacks.
I am aware it makes parts of the archetype a bit mismatched (unless using a bastard sword), but it's far from the first time Paizo messed up.

[Gnaeus]

Being able to buckler bash doesn't change anything.
The FAQ, while not specifically mentioning bucklers (because they are not normally an option), shows clear enough intent:
"you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks"

Your buckler hand is busy, no attacks.
I am aware it makes parts of the archetype a bit mismatched (unless using a bastard sword), but it's far from the first time Paizo messed up.

You could if you were a mutation warrior with a third arm. Not saying that’s the best path, but he could do it without jumping through hoops.

[exelsisxax]

You could if you were a mutation warrior with a third arm. Not saying that’s the best path, but he could do it without jumping through hoops.

A mutagen warrior cannot, because vestigial arm does not allow for extra attacks. It just lets you hold more crap at once. If you attack with 2 arms, you still can't bash.

[Gnaeus]

A mutagen warrior cannot, because vestigial arm does not allow for extra attacks. It just lets you hold more crap at once. If you attack with 2 arms, you still can't bash.

“The arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemists attack routine (using 2 weapon fighting).” So it doesn’t let you use multiattack or just give extra attacks, but it does let you TWF with a 2 handed weapon and another weapon like a buckler.

[The Shadowmind]

The bird gets the benefits of cobat feats, and martial training is a combat feat. The Harbinger, has an archetype that does similar, but Falcon Punch.

[grarrrg]

“The arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemists attack routine (using 2 weapon fighting).” So it doesn’t let you use multiattack or just give extra attacks, but it does let you TWF with a 2 handed weapon and another weapon like a buckler.

Vestigial 2-handed+TWF is a gray area at best.
The FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5) shuts down just about everything else.

Given the wording, and the sheer amount of text dedicated to 'no you can't do that', and the "Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists."
My personal interpretation is that Vestigial arms should just be reworded as "can hold things, can make/use Extracts, but can never attack/shield for any reason". It gets rid of most of the gray area nonsense, while still keeping the primary functionality (and using a LOT fewer words).

[exelsisxax]

Vestigial 2-handed+TWF is a gray area at best.
The FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5) shuts down just about everything else.

Given the wording, and the sheer amount of text dedicated to 'no you can't do that', and the "Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists."
My personal interpretation is that Vestigial arms should just be reworded as "can hold things, can make/use Extracts, but can never attack/shield for any reason". It gets rid of most of the gray area nonsense, while still keeping the primary functionality (and using a LOT fewer words).

I'd argue that the FAQ explcitly does shut it down. If you've got a 2H weapon, you've used two hands to attack. The rule is that you can't use 3 hands, so you get no more attacks no matter how you slice it. If the third hand has a weapon in it, it can do nothing.

[Gnaeus]

Vestigial 2-handed+TWF is a gray area at best.
The FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5) shuts down just about everything else.

Given the wording, and the sheer amount of text dedicated to 'no you can't do that', and the "Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists."
My personal interpretation is that Vestigial arms should just be reworded as "can hold things, can make/use Extracts, but can never attack/shield for any reason". It gets rid of most of the gray area nonsense, while still keeping the primary functionality (and using a LOT fewer words).

Your personal interpretation is not raw. Nor in any way supported by the faq you cited. And requires you to completely ignore the actual rules text I cited that the arm can wield a weapon as part of a TWF routine. At no point am I suggesting more than TWF which the discovery specifically calls out as Legal.

So in campaigns using your interpretation they can’t. In campaigns using the rules a 15th level archfighter can have 2 vestigial arms and a tentacle and can dual wield greatswords or longbows while using a shield. And in any event it changes the actual power of the archfighter virtually not at all.
Especially since by 10th level (earlier with items) he can monstrous physique (Bloodrager spell) into something with 4 arms and do all that anyway.

[Gnaeus]

I'd argue that the FAQ explcitly does shut it down. If you've got a 2H weapon, you've used two hands to attack. The rule is that you can't use 3 hands, so you get no more attacks no matter how you slice it. If the third hand has a weapon in it, it can do nothing.

No. The rule, from the text, is that the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the TWF routine. The faq addresses situations in which you are using 3 hands to make 3 different attacks. You can argue that the faq explicitly shuts it down in exactly the same way you can argue that steel is soft and water is dry and the eyes are the sense organ related to smell.

[grarrrg]

Your personal interpretation is not raw. Nor in any way supported by the faq you cited. And requires you to completely ignore the actual rules text I cited

Didn't say my opinion was RAW, and clearly indicated that it was opinion.
I believe my opinion is a valid extrapolation of the FAQ, given that the FAQ is one big wall of "nope".
And the whole of the rules text you selectively quoted is full of holes, which necessitated the aforementioned wall-of-text-FAQ.

Which brings us back around to my main point: that 2-hand + TWF is a gray area in the rules.

[Gnaeus]

Didn't say my opinion was RAW, and clearly indicated that it was opinion.
I believe my opinion is a valid extrapolation of the FAQ, given that the FAQ is one big wall of "nope".
And the whole of the rules text you selectively quoted is full of holes, which necessitated the aforementioned wall-of-text-FAQ.

Which brings us back around to my main point: that 2-hand + TWF is a gray area in the rules.

While I disagree, since it is black and white clear, my main point is that it is irrelevant.
1. You can get there by other methods (I mentioned monstrous physique)
2. You probably can’t afford the dex to TWF with all the other stats you need
3. You can already likely murder anything you can full attack
4. There’s lots of better things to do with your feats. Especially if DSP content is on the table. But even without DSP, with all those class abilities we have dozens of options that are as good or better than TWF.

[grarrrg]

While I disagree, since it is black and white clear

On no! You declaring it black and white has completely invalidated all my arguments past and future!
:smallsigh:



Can we get back to finding crazy/stupid/fun interactions from The Archetype of Infinite possibilities?

[NightbringerGGZ]

On no! You declaring it black and white has completely invalidated all my arguments past and future!
:smallsigh:



Can we get back to finding crazy/stupid/fun interactions from The Archetype of Infinite possibilities?

Well, on the stupid side you're going to wind up losing most of your armor and shield proficiencies.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Well, on the stupid side you're going to wind up losing most of your armor and shield proficiencies.

Pretty sure the premise was that the Archfighter doesn’t lose anything

[vasilidor]

Yes, DR. dinosaur is correct. the fighter in this hypothetical question does not loose any of the base abilities of the fighter, nor any of the abilities granted by the various archetypes.
that said, some of the abilities are exclusive to one another. as in cannot be used simultaneously.
So what should be looked at is what the fighter gains. the fighter will, from the quick study I did last night, have 10+ skill points, spells at 5th level, natural armor, lots of damage reduction (of stackable types no less), multiple access points to flight and energy resistance (some come on line later than others), the equivalent of pounce at level 11(I think). all in all a very robust boost. potentially tier 2 in the hands of a creative player, maybe, but I do not see anything less than tier 3.

[AvatarVecna]

My gut feeling is that this is gonna be pretty ridiculous until maybe level 13, at which point it's still ridiculous, but casters are starting to get enough ridiculous tricks to make it not seem so bad anymore that you have so many linearly-advancing numbers. So...let's see what this guy looks like at level 20, outside of stuff he gets from the basic fighter levels.



Full: Fight defensively with an einhander-style dueling sword, reduce penalties and increase bonuses by 4
Full: Make a single bow attack against every creature in a 15 ft radius burst
Full: Dirty Trick against up to (2+Dex mod) adjacent enemies (all the same trick)
Full: Move your speed, make full attack as if BAB was +18/+13/+8/+3
Full: make full attack as if BAB was +18/+18/+13/+8/+3
Standard: make full attack
Standard: make Whirlwind Attack (if you possess that feat)
Standard: Make one lance attack against both mount and rider (+4 to Ride DC to negate the mount hit)
Standard: Dirty Trick against 2 adjacent enemies (all the same trick)
Standard: Make one falcata attack; if you hit, free sunder attempt that doesn't provoke AoOs
Standard: make one crossbow attack at -4; if you hit, free bull rush or trip attempt with attack bonus for CMB
Standard: make one two-handed melee attack; if you hit, free bull rush or trip that doesn't provoke AoO
Standard: make one two-handed melee attack at -5; if you hit, you threaten a crit
Standard: if dual-wielding, attack once with each weapon
Standard: make single attack with Chosen Weapon* against Touch AC that ignores DR/Hardness
Move: center senses; Attack/Damage/Will +4 (insight), losing bonus if you become uncentered
Move: enter up to three style feat stances
Move (einhander-style): attempt disarm; if successful, foe loses shield bonus against your next attack
Move (einhander-style): attempt disarm or trip; if successful, foe is FF until they are next damaged (or your next turn)
Move (heavy/tower shield): provide partial cover to self and all adjacent allies until start of your next turn
Move (heavy/tower shield): provide improved cover and improved evasion to one adjacent ally until start of your next turn
Move (heavy/tower shield): provide evasion to all adjacent allies until start of your next turn
Swift (5/day): change your improvised melee weapon's damage to any other weapon damage type
Swift (26 feats/day): gain any number of combat feats you don't possess for 1 minute
Swift: Enter a style feat stance
Swift (14/day): Grant two teamwork feats you possess to all allies in 30 ft for 13 rounds
Swift: Attempt Knowledge check on target to know abilities/weaknesses; if successful, also gain attack/damage +2
Swift ({3+Int}/day): Ally in sight gains +(Int mod) to attack (insight) until the end of your next turn
Swift ({3+Con}/day): Gain 10 Temp HP that lasts up to 1 min
Swift: free trip attempt when you successfully Drag a foe
Swift: free trip attempt when you successfully Grapple a foe
Swift: free dirty trick attempt when you begin your turn grappled
Swift: free dirty trick attempt when you score an unarmed crit
Swift: free dirty trick or trip attempt when you pin a foe
Swift: free dirty trick or trip attempt when you hit foe who is denied their Dex to AC
Swift: Attempt to Demoralize foe
Immediate: Catch an arrow fired at you and shoot it at a target of your choice
Immediate: Attempt a Dirty Trick against a foe you just hit who was denied his Dex bonus to AC
Immediate: Attempt a Dirty Trick against a foe you just crit
Immediate: If crossbow is loaded, shoot somebody who just successfully shot you
Immediate: 5-ft step to be adjacent to your Obligation (see "Other")
Immediate (2/round): make an AoO with an einhander-style dueling sword against foe who hit you in melee
Immediate (einhander-style): attempt disarm on attacking foe; if successful, they instead attack themselves
Immediate: Acrobatics check vs crit confirm to negate crit on you
Immediate (heavy/tower shield): provide Improved Evasion to one adjacent ally against one attack
Immediate: shorten your grip on spear/polearm with reach to attack adjacent foes (immediate to undo)
Immediate: when foe in spear/polearm reach 5 ft steps adjacent to you, take a 5 ft step, and AC +2 (dodge) vs them
Immediate: when foe in spear/polearm reach attacks your ally/you, ally/you gains +2 AC and DR 5/- vs attack
Immediate: Foe you just hit with attack/maneuver must make DC (20+Str mod) Fort save vs Nauseated
Immediate: Reposition your Tower Shield facing (can't interrupt attack)
Immediate: After hitting a foe with both dual-wielded weapons, free disarm or sunder with no AoO risk
Immediate: Free dirty trick attempt against foe you just tripped with an unarmed attack
Immediate (4/day): Reroll attack, crit confirm, miss chance, or damage roll
Immediate (3/day): When you confirm a crit with your Chosen Weapon, increase the crit multiplier for this crit by 1
Free (1/round): draw a bomb
Free (2/round): Attempt to Demoralize foe
Free: Overrun attempt on foe you just successfully bull rushed



Attack +8/Damage +8 with melee weapons wielding by two cybernetic arms
Attack +5/Damage +7 with close weapons
Attack +4/Damage +8 with one weapon from the spear group
Attack +4/Damage +4 with Chosen Weapon*
Attack +4/Damage +4 when mounted on/adjacent to mount
Attack +4/Damage +4 if you moved at least 5 ft before attacking this turn
Attack +4/Damage +4 with natural weapons
Attack +4/Damage +4 with light blades (Damage +6 if using einhander-style)
Attack +4/Damage +4 with bows
Attack +4/Damage +4 with crossbows
Attack +4/Damage +4 with melee/thrown weapons wielded by one cybernetic arm
Attack +4/Damage +4 with implanted weapons or cybernetic arms
Attack +4/Damage +4 with falcata and buckler shield, but only if you're using both at once
Attack +4/Damage +4 vs any creature that has attacked you since the beginning of your last turn
Attack +4/Damage +4 with spears and polearms
Attack +4/Damage +4 with shield bash
Attack +4/Damage +4 with tribal weapons
Attack +4/Damage +4 with two-handed weapons
Attack +4/Damage +4 when dual-wielding
Attack +4/Damage +4 with monk weapons/natural weapons
Attack +4/Damage +0 on readied attacks/attacks of opportunity with spears/polearms
Attack +3/Damage +3 while using einhander-style
Attack +3/Damage +3 with slashing melee weapons underwater
Attack +3/Damage +3 with piercing melee weapons underwater
Attack +1/Damage +1 with bludgeoning melee weapons underwater
Attack +1/Damage +0 with alchemical weapons and bombs
Attack +0/Damage +5 on attacks against objects
Attack +0/Damage +2d6 bleed when you hit foe who has hit you since start of your last turn
Attack +0/Damage +1d4 (your bloodline element {see "Other"}) when attacking under Arcane Strike effect
Attack +0/Damage +(Str mod) when making a single attack with a two-handed weapon
Attack +0/Damage +(Str mod) on all but first attack of a two-handed full attack
Attack +0/Damage +(Dex mod, min 1) when making a crossbow attack as a readied action
Attack +0/Damage +(Dex mod) with four different firearms
Attack +0/Damage +(Int mod) (precision) when using Vital Strike (or improved/greater versions)
Attack +0/Damage +(Int mod) with splash weapons

You gain one extra instance of the Weapon Training class feature, to assign as desired
Weapon Mastery (a type of bow)
Weapon Mastery (a type of close weapon)
Weapon Mastery (a type of crossbow)
Weapon Mastery (Lance)
Weapon Mastery (Spear or Polearm)
Weapon Mastery (one natural weapon)
Weapon Mastery (Unarmed Strike)

Any improvised melee weapon you wield has 19-20/x2 crits
Any crit threat on a creature who's hit you since the start of your last turn is auto-confirmed
When attacking with a crossbow as a readied action, target loses Dex mod to AC
On crossbow crit, can attempt to hit foe on other side of crit foe (-4 to hit); cumulative with multiple crits
When you score a crit using Vital Strike (or improved/greater versions), deal max damage
On light/onehanded piercing/slashing crit, deal ability damage equal to crit multiplier to a stat of your choice
1/round auto-confirm critical threat
Choose an adjacent square each round; treat that square as your location to determine flanking
When charging and attacking with a natural weapon, attack +10/AC -5 instead of normal charge effect
Roll crit confirms twice, taking the better result (only while using Centered Senses)
Dual-wielding penalties reduced by 2
Can dual-wield onehanded weapons as if using onehanded/light
After making a full attack dual-wielding, every melee hit against you before your next turn provokes AoOs
Crit effect DCs +4 when used with Chosen Weapon*

CMB +8
CMB +4 when wielding oversized weapon
CMB +10 on maneuvers used in conjunction with "Stand Still"
CMB +5 on bull rush, drag, and reposition
CMB +5 on disarm, dirty trick, and steal
CMB +5 on disarm while using einhander-style
CMB +4 on disarm using buckler (-2 AC for one round if you fail by 10+)
CMB +4 on bull rush/overrun using tower shield
CMB +3 on bull rush/overrun using heavy shield
CMB +2 on bull rush/overrun using light shield
CMB +1 on bull rush/overrun using buckler shield
CMB +4 on grapple
CMB +5 on sunder when using two-handed weapon
In medium or heavy armor, CMB +2 with any four of bull rush, dirty trick, drag, grapple, overrun, reposition, or trip

Can use any melee weapon underwater without penalty/issues
Range increment of all bows +25 ft
Can attempt to bull rush, disarm, feint, sunder, or trip a target within 30 ft with an arrow (at a -4 to CMB)
Bow attacks in melee don't provoke AoOs
Crossbow attacks in melee don't provoke AoOs
Can bash with a buckler as if it was a light shield
Can alternate attacks in a full attack between falcata and buckler shield freely
Use lance end as "club" against adjacent enemies (counts as double weapon)
Lance enchantments apply to the "club" end (unless club end would be ineligible)
Can attach banner to lance, for +3 morale to charge attacks/saves vs fear for all allies in 60 ft
Can leap from mount while charging; if you jump 10+ ft, double charge bonuses, and count as mounted
Allies in 30 ft gain Weapon Training for the weapon you're using at half the bonus you have for it (non-stacking)
When you disarm a foe while wielding a dueling sword einhander-style, dealing 2*normal damage (sans Str mod)
When you Bull Rush/Overrun foe, deal (Str mod) bludgeoning
When you Improved Bull Rush/Improved Overrun foe, deal (Str mod+2+armor or shield enhancement) bludgeoning
No attack penalty to attack two-handed while using buckler
Add buckler's enhancement bonus to attack/damage when attacking with buckler
No TWF penalty when dual-wielding with buckler as off-hand weapon
No penalty for wielding an oversized weapon meant for creatures one size larger than you
You can wield a two-handed weapon one size too big for you as a two-handed weapon, no penalty
When using oversized weapon, you count as one size bigger for maneuvers
When using Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, damage is +100% instead of +50%
No attack penalty for using a Tower Shield
No Dex or attack penalties from being in a grapple
Can make AoOs while grappling, and can make AoOs against grapple attempts (even if normally couldn't)
Gain Quarry, only usable against foe who has damaged you in the past hour
Gain Improved Quarry, only usable against foe who has damaged you in the past day



AC +5 (dodge) after dual-wielding full attack
AC +5 (dodge) in light/no armor and carrying no more than a light load
AC +5 (dodge) in light/no armor and using einhander-style
AC +5 (dodge) in light/no armor, carrying no more than a light load, and using einhander-style
AC +5 (dodge) when using shield + Combat Expertise/fight defensively/total defense
AC +4 (dodge) vs ranged attacks
AC +8 (shield) in round following an einhander-style dueling sword full attack
AC +3 (natural)
AC +2 when using cover (in addition to normal cover bonuses)
AC +4 (insight) vs attacks made against you using your Chosen Weapon* type

Touch AC +(shield bonus)
Touch AC +6 (shield; cannot exceed shield bonus to AC)
Touch AC +(un-enhanced shield bonus)

100% Fortification while wearing armor
Armor cannot be sundered
In medium/heavy armor, Acrobatics DC to move through squares you threaten +4/+6
You gain two extra instances of the Armor Training class feature, to assign as desired
Armor Training Bonus to Max Dex Mod/ACP increase by 1/2 when using a Tower Shield
ACP counts as 0 for purposes of Acrobatics and Swim checks
If fighting defensively/using full defense/using Combat Expertise, you can only be flanked by a Rogue 24 or Ninja 24
Reduce any source of Str/Dex/Con damage by 2 (min 0)
Reduce shield ACP by 2
Reduce tower shield attack penalty by 2
Your shield cannot be disarmed or sundered
Foes must roll crit confirmation twice and take the worse result
If using shield/heavy shield/tower shield, foes in one/two/three adjacent squares can't help flank you
Don't lose buckler's shield bonus to AC when fighting two-handed
Retain Dex mod to AC when pinning foe
Shield Bonus increases by 8 when not using heavy armor

DR 4/- in light armor (stacks only with adamantine DR)
DR 8/- in medium armor (stacks only with adamantine DR)
DR 12/- in heavy armor (stacks only with adamantine DR)
DR 5/- against ranged attacks
DR 5/- while underwater
DR 5/- while mounted
DR 5/- when using a shield
DR 10/- vs nonlethal/damage taken while grappled

CMD +8
CMD +4 when wielding oversized weapon
In medium/heavy armor, CMD +4/+6 vs bull rush, dirty trick, drag, grapple, overrun, reposition, and trip
CMD +5 vs bull rush, drag, and reposition
CMD +5 vs disarm, dirty trick, and steal
CMD +5 vs disarm while using einhander-style
CMD +5 vs bull rush, drag, overrun, and trip
CMD +4 vs grapple
CMD +5 vs sunder when using two-handed weapon
CMD +5 vs disarm/sunder while wielding Chosen Weapon*

Temp HP +5 per cybernetic implant (with Temp HP Regen 10/hour for this Temp HP pool)

Reflex +5
Reflex +5 vs burst spells/effects when using Tower Shield
Reflex +(unenhanced shield bonus)

Will +10 vs mind-affecting
Will +10 vs compulsion
Will +5 vs charm
Will +5 vs fear

Saves +5 vs entangled
Saves +5 vs immobilized
Saves +10 vs paralyzed
Saves +5 vs slowed
Saves +5 vs trample effects
Saves +5 vs energy drain
Saves +5 vs death effects
Saves +5 vs sonic effects
Saves +5 vs figments
Saves +5 vs glamers
Saves +5 vs patterns
Saves +5 vs gaze attacks
Saves +5 vs scent-based attacks
Saves +5 vs fatigue/exhaustion/staggered/temporary ability penalties
Saves +5 vs effects targeting your Chosen Weapon*

One of the following:
Fortitude +5 vs altitude sickness, exposure to cold weather, and other fatigue/exhaustion effects
Fortitude +5 vs poison and disease
Reflex +5 vs attacks that deal half damage on a successful save
Reflex +5 vs traps, natural hazards, and environmental effects

Saves to end ongoing effects are rolled twice, taking the better

Energy Immunity: Your bloodline element (see "Other")

Immunity: Paralysis
Immunity: Sleep
Immunity: Fatigue
Immunity: Exhaustion
Immunity: Staggered
Immunity: Nonlethal Damage
Immunity: Mind-Affecting Effects

Uncanny Dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Evasion (any armor, only while using Centered Senses)
Evasion/Improved Evasion (while using Tower Shield)
Stalwart
20% miss chance in light/no armor and with no more than a light load



Land Speed +10 ft
Land Speed +10 ft in light/no armor
Swim Speed equal to unmodified Land Speed
Fly Speed 60 ft (average); can be dismissed/resumed as a standard

Move normal speed in medium/heavy armor
Move normal speed with medium/heavy load
Reduce ACP/Increase Max Dex of medium/heavy loads by 4
Ignore 10 ft of difficult terrain per turn

Blindsense 60 ft
Truesight 60 ft (only while using Centered Senses)



Skill points/level +10

20 free ranks in Intimidate
20 free ranks in Knowledge (Planes)
20 free ranks in Int-based skill of your choice
20 free ranks in Int-based skill of your choice
20 free ranks in (Bluff, Sense Motive, Sleight Of Hand, or Stealth)
20 free ranks in (Bluff, Sense Motive, Sleight Of Hand, or Stealth)

Class Skill: Acrobatics
Class Skill: Appraise
Class Skill: Bluff
Class Skill: Diplomacy
Class Skill: Disguise
Class Skill: Escape Artist
Class Skill: Knowledge (Arcana)
Class Skill: Knowledge (Geography)
Class Skill: Knowledge (History)
Class Skill: Knowledge (Local)
Class Skill: Knowledge (Nature)
Class Skill: Knowledge (Nobility)
Class Skill: Knowledge (Planes)
Class Skill: Knowledge (Religion)
Class Skill: Linguistics
Class Skill: Perception
Class Skill: Perform (Act)
Class Skill: Perform (Comedy)
Class Skill: Perform (Dance)
Class Skill: Sense Motive
Class Skill: Sleight Of Hand
Class Skill: Spellcraft
Class Skill: Stealth
Class Skill: Use Magic Device

Initiative +5

Bluff +5 to feint or create a diversion while using einhander-style
Diplomacy +5 to gather information
Intimidate +5 to demoralize foe
Knowledge +2 regarding aboleths/demons/serpentfolk/undead
Perception +5
Sleight Of Hand +10 to conceal object on your person
Stealth +10 while sniping
Survival +5 to follow tracks

Can take 10 on Acrobatics while under stress

4/day take 20 on Acrobatics roll in normal skill-time



Familiar (as Wizard 20)
Benefits from your combat feats if it can see/hear you

Child Of War:
Int-based prepared caster, CL 20
Cantrips: any four wizard cantrips, usable at-will
Spell List: Bloodrager
Spellbook Spells: (4+Int)/4/4/4
Spells per day: 4/4/3/3



Bonus Feat: "Arcane Strike", even without pre-reqs
Bonus Feat: "Bodyguard" (only in regards to Obligation{see "Other"})
Bonus Feat: "Catch Off-Guard"
Bonus Feat: "Combat Expertise", even without pre-reqs
Bonus Feat: "Cleave", even without pre-reqs (no AC penalty to use)
Bonus Feat: "Combat Reflexes" (using Str instead of Dex)
Bonus Feat: "Dazzling Display" (doesn't need a weapon, can be used as a standard action)
Bonus Feat: "Diehard"
Bonus Feat: "Endurance"
Bonus Feat: "Great Cleave", even without pre-reqs (no AC penalty to use)
Bonus Feat: "Heroic Defiance" (3/day)
Bonus Feat: "Heroic Recovery" (4/day)
Bonus Feat: "Improved Dirty Trick", even without pre-reqs
Bonus Feat: "Improved Unarmed Strike"
Bonus Feat: "In Harm's Way" (only in regards to Obligation {See "Other"})
Bonus Feat: "Mounted Combat"
Bonus Feat: "Performance Weapon Mastery"
Bonus Feat: "Pinpoint Targeting"
Bonus Feat: "Skill Focus (Ride)"
Bonus Feat: "Stand Still", even without pre-reqs

Floating Bonus Feat: any Teamwork
Floating Bonus Feat: any Teamwork
Floating Bonus Feat: any Teamwork
Floating Bonus Feat: any Style

Any feat whose name includes "Hellknight" counts as a combat feat
Skill Focus, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, and all teamwork feats count as combat feats
All performance feats count as combat feats
Rage Powers count as combat feats

For style feat pre-req purposes, you count as having 20 ranks in any skill you're trained in



One extra brain slot for cybertech
Two extra body slots for cybertech
10 extra implantation points (split between Con and Int as desired)

Gain Mutagen (as Alchemist 20)
Gain Alchemist Discoveries at lvls 7/11/15/19 (can only choose those related to mutagens)

Choose a core true dragon; your bloodline element is whatever element it's immune to
1/day, spend 1 minute to select an ally as your Obligation
Whenever you would take damage as a result of attacking a foe, reduce the damage by 10
Adjacent creatures take -4 to attack and -7 to concentrate (unless you are dazed/helpless/staggered/stunned/unconscious)
Creatures taking a 5ft step or withdraw action while adjacent to you still provokes AoOs
No AC penalty when charging
When you begin Performance Combat, you start with 2 additional Victory Points (or just 2, if you don't have any)
Gain 5 edges of your choice (See "Opportunist" archetype for details)
Str +10 for determining carrying capacity
When you Aid Another, you can aid (Int mod) additional allies
When using a shield, you can wield any spear or polearm of your size in one hand
Can attempt full dismount after Mount moves no more than their speed; if successful, you may make a full attack
Can full attack from mount-back if Mount moves no more than their speed
Allies and difficult terrain doesn't block your mount's charge
Allies and difficult terrain doesn't block your charges

You can rage as a Barbarian 20 (including rounds of rage/day, and rage power effects)

Mount AC +5 (dodge)
Mount Saves +5 (morale)
Mount's Attack +4/Damage +4 when mounted by/next to rider
Mount's speed not reduced by medium barding/load
Mount has DR 5/- while mounted



The primary benefits I see to this Fighter is the sheer flexibility:

12 skill points per level, full-level free ranks in six skills (two assigned, two Int-based, two limited-selection), a massively-upgraded Class Skill list, Skill Focus as a FBF option, and some limited Rogue Talent access via Opportunist makes for a well-rounded skillmonkey even without any investment whatsoever.

Up to 4th lvl spellcasting off a non-awful list. The biggest downside to this casting besides the max level (which, come on, isn't that bad for Fighter) is that it's prepared. Your best bet will be to scour the spell list for good utility, and lean on your 50 Fighter Archetypes worth of features for combat stuff.

Mutagen progression, and limited access to other Alchemist discoveries via Opportunist - including bombs.

Rage, and rage powers as bonus feats, means you can get some Master Chymist-like shenanigans going on with your stats.

You've got up to 26 combat feats floating from day-to-day (each of which will last a minute), and you can share a couple of combat feats with all your friends for about the same timeframe. Your group tactics can change from fight to fight as the circumstances necessitate, once you've reached the higher levels. And with how much the "combat feat" pool has been widened (to include Teamwork Feats, Skill Focus, and rage powers) means you yourself can a constantly-shifting master of battle.

What probably would sell this over a well-built, well-played, high-level caster, are all the ways fighter is just better at doing what he already did. Huge bonuses to Ref and Will in a number of categories, a wide variety of stackable Attack/Damage bonuses, huge AC bonuses for varying styles, moving faster, attacking faster. You can intimidate as a swift, full attack+move, full attack as a standard, fly, swim, create chains of free-action maneuvers, give penalties to your enemies, give buffs to your allies...this is a Fighter who, no matter what armor he's using, no matter what weapon he's using, no matter who he's facing, and no matter who he's fighting alongside, will absolutely positively kick your ass and live to tell of it. With your flexible feat-pool and wide variety of bonuses, you could do absolutely fine having a different fighting style every single encounter. About the only thing you're not really able to do with the build that I can see immediately is "heal damage/effects on other people", but there's probably some nice feats for that (if nothing else, Signature Skill: Heal).

[Peat]

Compared to Tier 1 casters...

You'd do just as much if not more in most combats. Numbers and flexibility are off the charts. You're a hyper-mobile lockdown presence that hits like a train.

Outside of combat... there's enough skill points to stay relevant, but you're T3 at best (unless your GM allows big skill bonuses to do ridiculous things).

Guess you've also got enough combat feats that you can throw a lot at finding non-combat stuff to do - but I think still T3 in that respect.



I'd love to play this though. Idly wondering where it stacks up in power against other All Archetype Martials or an All Archetype Rogue.

[Gnaeus]

On no! You declaring it black and white has completely invalidated all my arguments past and future!

No. The rules did that.

A medium long sword does 2d12 base damage. So the rules disagree? I guess it’s a grey area. Well, it’s my interpretation of a rule that says they do 1d8.

[AvatarVecna]

Since somebody (sort of) asked how it compares, a Rogue 20 list that doesn't include the basic features the rogue gets with the non-archetyped class:



1d4+1 Hours (1/day): Deal 200 to an immobile, unresisting object (ignoring hardness)
1 Hour (1/day): Turn a wand into a Signature Wand (free action to draw, no UMD necessary to activate)
1 minute (2/day): "Commune With Nature", range 2000 ft, any environment
2d4 rounds (4/day): Attempt DC (15+curse save DC) Disable Device check to end curse
Full (1 per duration increment): Attempt DC (20+original save DC) Escape Artist check to escape mind-affecting effect
Full: Make one attack and one Sleight Of Hand attempt vs Perception -5 (if it's surprise round or you SA'd target)
Full: FDC (20+Int) Will save or foe believes up to 5 minutes of their past 6 hours' memory is unreliable (new save every hour)
Full: Create disguise while in dim light/darkness
Standard (3/day): Grant a teamwork feat you possess to all allies in 30 ft for 13 rounds
Standard: Sleight Of Hand vs Perception to dose target with ingested/inhaled poison as if it were contact poison
Standard: Enter shadow plane, travel a distance, re-enter material (max 600 ft/day traveled in this fashion)
Move: Bluff +10 to feint if target next to plants
Swift: Bluff +10 to create hiding distraction if target next to plants
Swift: Apply dose of poison to a weapon
Swift: Next hit in this round ignores up to 15 DR/hardness (ignores all DR/hardness if you deal SA)
Immediate: Use Escape Artist -10 in place of Reflex save you just failed, or AC that just got hit (staggered afterwards)
Free (1/minute): Reroll a trained skill check you just attempted (must accept reroll)
Free: When dealing SA damage, can attempt to demoralize (with +5 for every SA die given up)
Free (3/day): Reroll d20 you just rolled
Free: Move your speed before acting in the surprise round



Attack +2/Damage +2 vs foes who damaged you since the start of your last turn
Attack +0/Damage +(Int) with splash weapons

Sneak Attack +10d6

(Cha/day) When you score a crit, and deal Sneak Attack damage, you can make foe frightened for (Cha mod) rounds
Foe you crit inside dim light is blinded for 1d6 rounds

CMB penalty to tie up pinned/restrained creature reduced by 10
CMB +6 to initiate/resist grapple

Proficiency in all one-handed firearms
Begin play with a battered firearm (coat pistol, dagger pistol, or cane pistol only)
Range increments of those three guns +10 ft
Damage die of those three guns +1 step
Being each day with at least 20 bullets/catridges
Can exchange free regular bullets for free enchanted bullets (up to +6 equivalent enhancement)
magic bullets replace (equivalent enhancement) regular bullets

You can take a full round's worth of actions in the surprise round
You can attempt AoOs against targets with cover
You can attempt to deal precision damage to targets with total concealment
When you miss with a melee attack, you can designate an ally in 30 ft to get +2 (insight) to hit that target this turn
Foes you SA cannot Withdraw for 1 round
Foes you SA must make DC (20+Int) concentration check or lose Conjuration (Teleportation) spell they tried to cast in following round
Sneak Attacks made with daggers/knives use d8s instead of d6s
You may apply a contact/ingested poison to a weapon and treat it as an injury poison for 1 minute
Treat outsiders with 100% fortification as if they had 50% fortification
When dealing SA to a robot, ignore their hardness
When you charge, or move 10+ ft in a round and attack, first attack after the movement deals SA as if target was FF
Foes who miss you with AoO are considered FF for SA purposes for one round
Underwater SA doesn't deal half damage
When SAing a construct, ignore their hardness
Halve range penalties with bows/crossbows
SA range +60 ft
You can attempt to feint non-humanoids without penalty
When you deal SA to target, you can forgo one SA die to make target sickened for 10 rounds
You can SA oozes, and water subtype creatures normally immune to SA
You can SA with splash weapons
you always act in the surprise round
SA dice are d8s during surprise round



AC +6 (dodge) vs light blades

Quadruple your Trap Sense bonuses if you trigger a trap you were attempting to disarm

DR 10/cold iron

Gain 10 Temp HP when you ingest and ingested poison (lasts max of 20 rounds)
Ingesting ingested poisons have varying effects based on poison's damage and severity (see "Rotdrinker" archetype)

Fortitude +1 (sacred)

No Reflex penalty for moving about on roofs

Will +1 (sacred)
Will +5
Will +6 while underwater

Saves +3 (luck)
Saves +16 vs poisons
Saves +12 vs fear
Saves +12 vs diseases
Saves +6 vs mind-affecting
Saves +6 vs effects with air/earth/fire/water descriptor
Saves +6 vs effects with chaotic/evil/good/lawful descriptor
Saves +6 vs abilities/spells you've successfully saved against in the past minute
Saves +4 vs SLAs/Su abilities of fey

Can go twice as long as normal without water before suffering penalties
Can go thrice as long as normal without food before suffering penalties

Immunity: Dazzled
Immunity: Ingested Poisons



Swim Speed equal to unmodified land speed

Move full speed across the tops of buildings
Ignore difficult terrain caused by light undergrowth/shallow bogs
Only costs 10 ft to enter a square of deep bog/heavy undergrowth
Ignore up to 30 ft of difficult terrain per round
Can 5-ft step into difficult terrain

Vision unhampered by light/darkness resulting from illumination points (see "Spellcasting")
Lose Light Sensitivity (if possessed)
Light Blindness (if possessed) becomes Light Sensitivity
Darkvision 180 ft (or +160 ft, if Darkvision already possessed)
Blindsight 30 ft



Class Skill: All

No ACP for Acrobatics/Climb/Fly/Sleight Of Hand/Stealth from light armor
6/day you may reroll an Acrobatics/Climb/Fly check you just failed (at -5)
You don't spring a trap you're attempting to disable unless you fail by 20 or more
When detected while using Stealth, can roll Bluff vs Sense Motive to make watchers disregard the detection
Can increase Handle Animal DC by 5 to train in 1/7th the time
Can train multiple animals at once (+2 DC per additional simultaneous animal)
Start every day with (Bluff ranks+Bluff feat bonuses), which you can add to Stealth rolls
Within 6 different terrains (as via ranger's Favored Terrain), can take 10 on Stealth under stress
When you successfully Bluff someone, they have -2 to discern your lies for the next 24 hours (no stacking)
If you fail by 5 or more to improve a creatures attitude via Diplomacy, its attitude is not worsened
Use Dex instead of Cha for UMD in regards to Wands
SoH target rolls Perception first, then you can choose to roll SoH, or roll Bluff vs Sense Motive to avoid suspicion
Can attempt to hide in bright light without cover/concealment at -5 (except against foes immune to blinding/dazzled)
DC to track you increases by 8
Foes in dim light/darkness without low-light vision/darkvision take -10 to oppose your Bluff/Disguise/Sleight Of Hand
When faking Occult Skill Unlocks, auto-bluff those incapable of using them
When faking Occult Skill Unlocks, Bluff vs {the skill you're faking} to fool a psychically sensitive person
Can attempt Stealth in area with plants even without cover/concealment
In dim light/darkness, if you would have concealment, you instead have total concealment
Sniping penalty to Stealth reduced to -10 in dim light/darkness
Perception DC +20 (max 45) to realize true nature of concealed weapons within 5 ft of you
Picking a lock without thieves tools only increases DC by 2
Count as one size smaller to determine squeezing
DC 20 (not 30) Escape Artist to fit through space where head fits, but shoulders don't
Can attempt Stealth in urban environment without cover/concealment
Can attempt Stealth in underground environment without cover/concealment
Roll twice to gather information with Diplomacy, and get both sets of info (no extra time)
No penalty when using improvised tools to pick a lock
All allies in 30ft (but not you) get +6 (competence) to Disguise and Stealth checks
No Acrobatics/Stealth penalty for being in bogs/undergrowth
No Acrobatics penalty for moving about on roofs
When falling, bounce between two walls 10 ft apart to tumble down safely (DC 10+5 per additional 10 ft); failure means falling
Bluff penalties for outlandish lies reduced by 5 (min 0)
Can roll Diplomacy +6 vs official's Sense Motive to bribe them with 5d4 gp to let cargo through
Bluff vs Perception when being searched; if successful, searcher rolls 2d20w1 for Perception to search you
Foes take -10 to Perception to notice you using Sleight Of Hand
No penalty for using Sleight Of Hand as a move action
When you demoralize someone, they are shaken for an additional round
If demoralization target would be shaken for 4 or more rounds, you can instead make them frightened for one round

Automatic 20 on initiative
Initiative +10 if you act in the surprise round
Initiative +6 when Bluff/Sense Motive involved in determining surprise

Acrobatics +6
Acrobatics +10 when in contact with natural earth/stone
Acrobatics +6 vs larger creatures
Acrobatics +2 when not wearing armor
Bluff +42
Bluff +20 to deceive someone
Bluff +12 to pass on secret messages
Bluff +10 to stay in-character while disguised
Bluff +10 in dim light/darkness
Bluff +6 to surprise foe
Climb +6 vs larger creatures
Craft (Alchemy) +10
Craft (Alchemy) +6 involving poison
Diplomacy +16
Diplomacy +10 to gather information pertaining to thieves' guild
Diplomacy +3 (competence) to adjust creature's starting attitude
Disable Device +10
Disable Device +16 to disarm magical traps
Disable Device +10 to disarm high-tech/mechanical traps
Disable Device +4 to disarm traps
Disguise +10
Disguise +15 in dim light/darkness
Escape Artist +20
Escape Artist +6 vs larger creatures
Fly +2 when not wearing armor
Handle Animal +10 to train Tiny/Small animals
Heal +6 to treat poisons/diseases
Intimidate +10
Intimidate +4 to force target to share information
Knowledge (Local) +10 to gather information pertaining to thieves' guild
Knowledge (Nobility) +6
Perception +16 to find magical traps
Perception +10 to find high-tech/mechanical traps
Perception +10 to identify haunts
Perception +10 when in contact with natural earth/stone
Perception +6 to detect disguises/hidden creatures
Perception +6 to avoid being surprised
Perception +6 to identify traps employing poison/diseases
Perception +4 to find traps
Profession (Gambler) +6
Sense Motive +6
Sense Motive +12 to discern secret messages
Sense Motive +10 to discern lies
Sense Motive +6 to avoid being surprised
Sleight Of Hand +24
Sleight Of Hand +15 in dim light/darkness
Sleight Of Hand +10 to conceal one-handed firearm on your body
Sleight Of Hand +10 to conceal a light blade
Sleight Of Hand +6 to draw concealed weapon coated in poison
Spellcraft +10 to identify cursed magic items
Stealth +11 in dim light/darkness
Swim +24
Survival +10 to follow tracks in desert terrain
Use Magic Device +10 to activate scrolls and wands

Select 10 skills; +10 to all uses of these skills, and they are Unchained for you



Bonus Feat: "Blind-Fight"
Bonus Feat: "Catch Off-Guard"
Bonus Feat: "Greater Blind-Fight"
Bonus Feat: "Greater Dirty Trick"
Bonus Feat: "Greater Steal"
Bonus Feat: "Gunsmithing"
Bonus Feat: "Improved Blind-Fight"
Bonus Feat: "Improved Dirty Trick"
Bonus Feat: "Improved Steal"
Bonus Feat: "Improvised Weapon Mastery"
Bonus Feat: "Leadership" (double normal followers)
Bonus Feat: "Persuasive"
Bonus Feat: "Quick Steal"
Bonus Feat: "Sea Legs"
Bonus Feat: "Stealthy"
Bonus Feat: "Technologist"
Bonus Feat: "Throw Anything"



Familiar (as Wizard 20)
Can use your Sneak Attack

Spellcasting:
Arcane/Prepared from spellbook/Int-based
Spells drawn from Wizard
Can inscribe more spells
Any 5 wizard cantrips (chosen daily) at-will
Lvl'd Spells In Spellbook: (7+Int)/7/7/7/7/6
Lvl'd Spell Slots per day: 5/5/5/5/5/5

In dim light/darkness Bluff vs (Perception/Sense Motive) to convince target Ex Illusions are real (range 35 ft):
Dancing Lights
Ghost Sound
Silent Image
Ventriloquism


1/day CL 20 "Endure Elements"
1/day CL 20 "Misdirection" (DC 12+Int), second target is a creature in range
1/day CL 20 "Augury"
1/day CL 20 "Enthrall" (DC 20+Cha mod), can improve crowd's long-term opinion of you
1/day CL 20 "Suggestion" (DC 20+Cha mod) during above Enthrall, affects whole crowd for up to 1 day
5/day CL 20 "Dress Corpse" (or, using 2 uses, CL 20 "Disintegrate")

Start each day with 10 Illumination points, which can be spent to cast spells:
min 1ip: "Light" (at-will)
2ip: "Darkness"
3ip: "Daylight"
3ip: "Deeper Darkness"


Start every day with (10+Wis) Earthcraft points, which can be spent to cast spells:[list]
1ec: "Blend" (only in areas of natural earth/stone)
2ec: "Meld Into Stone"
3ec: "Dimension Door" (must be able to detect destination, and must be connected by continuous earth/stone)
5ec: "Stone Tell" (only unworked stone)
6ec: "Statue"




Bonus Talent: "Black Market Connections"
Bonus Talent: "Certainty [Diplomacy]"
Bonus Talent: "Master Of Disguise" (at-will)
Bonus Talent: "Quick Disguise" (double speed)
Bonus Talent: "Rumormonger"
Bonus Talent: "Terrain Mastery [Underground]"
Bonus Talent: "Terrain Mastery [Urban]"
Bonus Talent: "Trap Spotter" (only in regards to magic traps)

You may select some limited Alchemist Discoveries in place of Rogue Talents (see "Underground Chemist")
You may select Hexes (of all levels) in place of Rogue Talents, as if you were a Witch of equal level to your Rogue levels
You may take Vigilante social talents in place of Rogue Talents
You may take "Skill Focus" in place of Rogue Talents
You may take "Improved Grapple" or "Greater Grapple" in place of Rogue Talents (and may ignore the IUS prereq)
You may take Teamwork feats in place of Rogue Talents
You may take Ninja Talents in place of Rogue Talents
those costing {X} Ki instead cost 1 lvl {X} spell slots
those requiring 1 Ki in Ki Pool instead require at least one 1st lvl spell remaining

Wild Empathy
You gain the "Renown" Vigilante social talent (applies in any settlement on the same continent as your base)
You gain the "Gossipmonger" Vigilante social talent
You are trained in the use of poison, and will never accidentally poison yourself
If driving under 0 HP, can attempt DC 15 Fort save to remain conscious and driving (albeit without taking actions)
When driving a vehicle powered by animals/magical beasts:
Driving Check DCs are 2 lower
Vehicle's max speed +10 ft
Vehicle's acceleration +5 ft

Choose an illumination level (bright light/normal light/dim light/darkness); gain the following benefits while within it:
Initiative +7
Acrobatics +7
Perception +7
Sleight Of Hand +7
When you crit + SA a creature in your favored illumination level that has at least 10 HD, regain 1 illumination point



Before I get into the really cool crap this Rogue gets, I'd like to take this opportunity to express my dismay that Sapper Rogue isn't better. These abilities look really interesting in theory...and then it's so ****ing lame. One ability that's maybe worth using at lvl 1, one ability tht's maybe worth using at lvl 20, and one mediocre ability that's always potentially useful. Anyway, on with the show.

As expected, between the fewer archetypes and the fewer abilities archetype-creators want to sacrifice from the basic rogue, AllArch Rogue has a much less impressive list than the Fighter did...at least, length-wise. Part of the reason for this is that a great number of things end up overlapping: a couple archetypes that normally slow down SA - under our "nothing is replaced" system, instead increase total SA (stacking together for +10d6 on top of normal SA damage). But of course, where the Fighter became a paragon of combat, the rogue became the undisputed master of skills. The Fighter might be getting more ranks every level, but the Rogue has an endless list of ways their skills work better (or in some cases, less bad), not to mention the wide variety of flat bonuses across the board. 10 Signature Skills via Phantom Thief (which come online in 66% normal time, I might add), give you a good bit of variety and access to interesting abilities. You've got tons of resources to choose from for your Rogue Talents, and you've even got a Familiar who can use your Sneak Attack.

Oh yeah, and you've also got two-thirds casting out of a spellbook and off the wizard list. That's definitely worth mentioning. :smallwink:

[The Shadowmind]

Compared to Tier 1 casters...

You'd do just as much if not more in most combats. Numbers and flexibility are off the charts. You're a hyper-mobile lockdown presence that hits like a train.

Outside of combat... there's enough skill points to stay relevant, but you're T3 at best (unless your GM allows big skill bonuses to do ridiculous things).

Guess you've also got enough combat feats that you can throw a lot at finding non-combat stuff to do - but I think still T3 in that respect.



I'd love to play this though. Idly wondering where it stacks up in power against other All Archetype Martials or an All Archetype Rogue.

On the other tier 4 classes:
Fighter, Vanilla Brawler, Vigilante, Ninja, Rogue, Unchained Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler (ACG), Archetyped Monks, Unchained Monk

Brawler: An ArchBrawler is better at fighting, can inspire courage, and grant spontaneous team-work feats... but not much else. Low-tier 3, high tier 4.

Vigilante: Thanks you Magical Child, and Warlock/Cabalist, and Zealot you get Magus, Summoner, and Inquisitor, Then add mutatgens and the bonus feats. I think the Vigilante is possibly low T2, and certainly high T3 if not, but spell casting Vigilante was already T3.

Ninja: Arch-Ninja, barely changes anything. It is a simply less incompetent Ninja.

Rogue: Arch Rogue gets spell casting thinks to Eldritch Scoundrel, from the Wizard list at Magus rate, so the Vigilante still crushes her in that regard, but the Rogue is Queen of social. You even notice how many archetypes that are nigh-useless?

Cavalier: To bad you can't have a size-increased, ghost drake as your mount, or maybe you can since this exercise isn't following all the rules anyway. Suffers from that most of the arch-types are very combat focused, and most just give your different ways to do to same thing.

Samurai: Hahahahaha. Suffers from the same problems of the Ninja: but archetypes all focused on combat, and barely give you anything to start with. I'm not certain if this even moves from its current placement within the T5 list.
Gunslinger: Gunslinger shoot gun. ArchGunslinger shoot gun better. And throws bombs.
Monk: The ArchMonk is like the ArchFigther and ArchRogue, lots of good and new options, and can do a good impression of an actually legendary monk.

So classes of interest:
Arch-Fighter as already discussed, Arch-Vigilante, Arch-Rogue, and Arch-Monk.

[Bucky]

Does an Arch-Fighter dominate the battlefield to such an extent that he hits Tier 2?

The traditional T2 boundary doesn't require dominance everywhere, just T3 levels of assorted utility. Conversely, if a Fighter can play rocket tag with weapons rather than spells and has ways to ignore many of the normal anti-Fighter options, that should be enough for T2, right?

[Florian]

Does an Arch-Fighter dominate the battlefield to such an extent that he hits Tier 2?

RAW or theory?

The problem with your question is with "Item Mastery" and any "flexi" build. Right now, the Iron Caster just has a few printed options to go with and with the upcoming PF2 playtest, we can assume there will be no more material. It´s like "whoa, you have access to a whopping 12 spells! (but they're good and the most essential ones)". It´s a similar situation as with the Occultist and alternative Implements - in theory and how they're designed, we can extrapolate an endless number of varieties, but they will never appear as RAW.

So in theory, assuming an infinite number of Item Mastery feats on a flexi build, it could actually come close to a low T2, in practice we simply lack this feats.

[Bucky]

The relic master archetype gets spontaneous access to the entire item mastery 'spell list' at 19, so any expansion of the feat-set is relevant even if the build doesn't have enough spare feats somehow.

But I think the fighter's good enough even with only the printed list - his mere presence on the battlefield is worth several top-level spells.


---
@ AvatarVecna - you apparently missed that the Swarm Fighter archetype replaces half the fighter's bonus feats with identical bonus feats.

[The Shadowmind]

Does an Arch-Fighter dominate the battlefield to such an extent that he hits Tier 2?

The traditional T2 boundary doesn't require dominance everywhere, just T3 levels of assorted utility. Conversely, if a Fighter can play rocket tag with weapons rather than spells and has ways to ignore many of the normal anti-Fighter options, that should be enough for T2, right?


Let's see what the definition of T1:
Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

And T2:
Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

So the Arch Fighter is certainly not T1. He can do a lot, but not everything and has several blind-spots that aren't solved by class abilities. In combat is has campaign smash level of raw power, but lacks as much in other situations. The arch-fighter has freed up resources such as money and feats that normal builds would have, but those would have the "no one build" limitation that T2 classes do have. So the question is, can overhelming flexibility itself be enough to be greater than raw power?

I'd putting Arch-Fighter into the Maybe column. Which is higher than I thought the result would of been when I posted this thread.

[Bucky]

So the question is, can overhelming flexibility itself be enough to be greater than raw power?
Does this matter when "In combat is has campaign smash level of raw power"?

[exelsisxax]

Does this matter when "In combat is has campaign smash level of raw power"?

So does a ragechemist. Doesn't make alchemists T2.

[Gnaeus]

Does an Arch-Fighter dominate the battlefield to such an extent that he hits Tier 2?

The traditional T2 boundary doesn't require dominance everywhere, just T3 levels of assorted utility. Conversely, if a Fighter can play rocket tag with weapons rather than spells and has ways to ignore many of the normal anti-Fighter options, that should be enough for T2, right?

Not really. T2 requires a level of strategic not tactical power archfighter can’t get to. Or at least not before 19 which isn’t good enough for the healer or truenamer. Winning all combats doesn’t break the tier boundary. You need to be able to create minions and level cities and break the economy and other non archfighter stuff.

That said, if you include the DSP options, I think you hit one of those weird supercharacters that definitionally doesn’t hit T2 while outperforming T2 in anything that looks like traditional D&D.

[Florian]

I'd putting Arch-Fighter into the Maybe column. Which is higher than I thought the result would of been when I posted this thread.

Ok, so I do know the system and I do know how WBL-mancy works, so I configure myself today to s**t out a dozen candles and go for the wishing.....

The indirect route can be as powerful as the direct route. Don't underestimate what it means to be flexible enough to switch routes.

[grarrrg]

it does let you TWF with a 2 handed weapon and another weapon like a buckler.

...

No. The rules did that.
Linky 1 (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mer7?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discovery-question#40)
"The intent is that you have an extra arm for holding stuff, not to turn you into a double-greatsword-wielding maniac."
Linky 2 (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mer7?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discovery-question#43) (note that this is just 'shield as shield' use, not off-hand attack)
"If you mean "use two hands on one weapon, and use the other arm for a shield," then yes. Though I wasn't really intending for people to do that, either. :p"

Intent was quite clearly 'nope'.

Back to the FAQ: (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5)
"At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn"

FAQ says "right hand/left hand", not "main hand/off hand".
You propose: Left hand on the sword, right hand on the sword, vesti-hand making a shield-bash.
The FAQ would suggest you are indeed trying to attack with 3 hands.


I am granting that they didn't _explicitly_ close _every_ loophole. Hence gray area.

[Bucky]

Ok, let's talk strategic power.

If the Arch-fighter feels like playing ranged vs. melee, he flexes up Overwatch Vortex, some of whose prerequisites he's taken as bonus feats. Quick draw a bow, ready actions to bull rush with it (Archer 11) when an opponent comes within 30', 25', tries to enter its reach or resists a combat maneuver. If any of those bull rushes succeed, they knock the opponent out of range and trigger a Trip (Foehammer 7) or outright knock them prone (Foehammer 15). In addition to CMB, he gets an extra +13 on these combat maneuvers normally, and because he's using a weapon he also gets its Masterwork or Enhancement bonus and single to triple weapon training bonus (bows, near mount, chosen weapon). The enemy needs to be very resilient or large to even have a chance to get into melee. And this approach can probably hold off a couple of weaker enemies.

Ranged vs. casting? Overwatch Style works against casters, too. But this time you're going for damage to maximize concentration DCs, and maybe using a light crossbow to keep them flat-footed (Crossbowman 7).

Feel like playing melee vs. melee? Pounce into Deadly Defense (TWW 19), with various riders, means that any targets that survived the initial charge take two counterattacks for every one they land.

Compared to deleting someone through damage, the Stunning Critical lock I mentioned last page seems redundant. But it's an option. Note that the victim is Staggered even on a successful save.

Don't feel like spending any actions whatsoever? You have Combat Reflexes (High Guardian 2), an oversized reach weapon (Titan Fighter 1) and a lot of extra ways to get AoOs.

[Gnaeus]

Linky 1 (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mer7?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discovery-question#40)
"The intent is that you have an extra arm for holding stuff, not to turn you into a double-greatsword-wielding maniac."
Linky 2 (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mer7?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discovery-question#43) (note that this is just 'shield as shield' use, not off-hand attack)
"If you mean "use two hands on one weapon, and use the other arm for a shield," then yes. Though I wasn't really intending for people to do that, either. :p"

Intent was quite clearly 'nope'.

Back to the FAQ: (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5)
"At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn"

FAQ says "right hand/left hand", not "main hand/off hand".
You propose: Left hand on the sword, right hand on the sword, vesti-hand making a shield-bash.
The FAQ would suggest you are indeed trying to attack with 3 hands.


I am granting that they didn't _explicitly_ close _every_ loophole. Hence gray area.

So SKR can’t write rules that match his intent. No surprise there. It still says you can in black and white under the description. It’s still raw Legal. It’s still not a grey area and even SKR says you can hold a shield with it if you like dev comments over RAW.

If SKR issues an errata, it wont be legal. Until then it is.

[Gnaeus]

Ok, let's talk strategic power.

If the Arch-fighter feels like playing ranged vs. melee, he flexes up Overwatch Vortex, some of whose prerequisites he's taken as bonus feats. Quick draw a bow, ready actions to bull rush with it (Archer 11) when an opponent comes within 30', 25', tries to enter its reach or resists a combat maneuver. If any of those bull rushes succeed, they knock the opponent out of range and trigger a Trip (Foehammer 7) or outright knock them prone (Foehammer 15). In addition to CMB, he gets an extra +13 on these combat maneuvers normally, and because he's using a weapon he also gets its Masterwork or Enhancement bonus and single to triple weapon training bonus (bows, near mount, chosen weapon). The enemy needs to be very resilient or large to even have a chance to get into melee. And this approach can probably hold off a couple of weaker enemies.

Ranged vs. casting? Overwatch Style works against casters, too. But this time you're going for damage to maximize concentration DCs, and maybe using a light crossbow to keep them flat-footed (Crossbowman 7).

Feel like playing melee vs. melee? Pounce into Deadly Defense (TWW 19), with various riders, means that any targets that survived the initial charge take two counterattacks for every one they land.

Compared to deleting someone through damage, the Stunning Critical lock I mentioned last page seems redundant. But it's an option. Note that the victim is Staggered even on a successful save.

Don't feel like spending any actions whatsoever? You have Combat Reflexes (High Guardian 2), an oversized reach weapon (Titan Fighter 1) and a lot of extra ways to get AoOs.

That’s all tactical map stuff. The T2 line is discussing strategic power like “I summon a hurricane and level that city” or “I scry my enemy and teleport in a team of assassins.” or “over the next 5 months Polymorph any object with indefinite duration 50000 pigs into 50000 orcs.” I agree with everything you suggest as options for winning fights with damage. No amount of damage hits T2. But I agree you have lots of fight winning options.

[AvatarVecna]

The relic master archetype gets spontaneous access to the entire item mastery 'spell list' at 19, so any expansion of the feat-set is relevant even if the build doesn't have enough spare feats somehow.

But I think the fighter's good enough even with only the printed list - his mere presence on the battlefield is worth several top-level spells.


---
@ AvatarVecna - you apparently missed that the Swarm Fighter archetype replaces half the fighter's bonus feats with identical bonus feats.

I only posted things using the archetype page linked in the OP - and Swarm Fighter isn't there. Incidentally, there's a couple archetypes that were on that last twice (Viking twice, then Defender/Swordlord, so their benefits were doubled although they probably shouldn't be). I found a similar page for Rogue, and did the same thing there. Additionally, even on archetypes on those lists, I ended up skipping racial archetypes, just because everybody AllArch Fighter isn't going to be this race or that race necessarily.

Which isn't to say there isn't stuff missing from both lists even off of those pages - some archetypes were complicated, giving abilities too complicated to quickly summarize, so they didn't make it onto the quick lists.

[The Shadowmind]

I only posted things using the archetype page linked in the OP - and Swarm Fighter isn't there. Incidentally, there's a couple archetypes that were on that last twice (Viking twice, then Defender/Swordlord, so their benefits were doubled although they probably shouldn't be). I found a similar page for Rogue, and did the same thing there. Additionally, even on archetypes on those lists, I ended up skipping racial archetypes, just because everybody AllArch Fighter isn't going to be this race or that race necessarily.

Which isn't to say there isn't stuff missing from both lists even off of those pages - some archetypes were complicated, giving abilities too complicated to quickly summarize, so they didn't make it onto the quick lists.

I also wasn't counting racial archetypes when I did a brief examination of the other classes as well.

[upho]

Not really. T2 requires a level of strategic not tactical power archfighter can’t get to. Or at least not before 19 which isn’t good enough for the healer or truenamer. Winning all combats doesn’t break the tier boundary. You need to be able to create minions and level cities and break the economy and other non archfighter stuff.Indeed. Although with DSP stuff very few beings aside from gods are actually capable of presenting a viable threat to you. So your main shortcoming in comparison to T2 will mostly be that your ability to simultaneously affect several geographically separate areas and to apply various high level spell effects will basically be limited to what you can do with Leadership, magic items and UMD.


That said, if you include the DSP options, I think you hit one of those weird supercharacters that definitionally doesn’t hit T2 while outperforming T2 in anything that looks like traditional D&D.This. With DSP options you'll be the greatest combat monster the game has ever seen, capable of beating the living daylights out of every enemy ever published by Paizo in the first round, even if facing several of them at the same time. You can also for example have them cowering, dazed and nauseated for several rounds without even having to deal damage. All your important combat numbers aside from hp can be better than those of any of those monsters, on top of your vastly superior action economy.