Kensei Monk With Spear

[TheCleverGuy]

The spear is a simple weapon with the properties Thrown and Versatile. Since it's not Heavy or Two-Handed, it counts as a monk weapon, right? And therefore it can be used as a kensei weapon, too.

Can you use both the ranged attack and melee attack bonuses from the kensei on the same weapon? Obviously not on the same attack, but I think the following would be completely "legal" (at the appropriate level):
1) Throw my spear as a ranged kensei attack.
2) Use my bonus action to Flurry of Blows at a melee opponent (or against the same enemy if I can move up to melee range between attacks).
3) Use my extra attack to make another unarmed strike at the melee opponent.
4) Use my item interaction to draw a backup spear (or other kensei weapon) to get the +2 AC for the rest of the round.

I realize it's probably not "optimal," but is there anything there I couldn't do, according to RAW? I guess the big question is, does a thrown weapon count as a ranged weapon?

Edit: just found one error in my plan here: it takes a bonus action to use Kensei Shot, so I can't do Flurry of Blows on the same turn. So, I could throw without the kensei bonus or forego Flurry, and the rest should work as written.

[quark12000]

Absolutely a spear counts as a monk weapon. My Open Hand monk uses one, and will until 11th level for the extra damage.

As far as the rest of your question, if you're carrying two spears, I don't see why you couldn't do that.

[TheCleverGuy]

Absolutely a spear counts as a monk weapon. My Open Hand monk uses one, and will until 11th level for the extra damage.

As far as the rest of your question, if you're carrying two spears, I don't see why you couldn't do that.

You can also still use the bonus unarmed strike or Flurry if you attack with the spear using both hands (Versatile), right?

[Slurm Browley]

You can also still use the bonus unarmed strike or Flurry if you attack with the spear using both hands (Versatile), right?

Absolutely. Kicks, elbows, and knees are how I flavor if a DM challenges me on it.

[quark12000]

Absolutely. Kicks, elbows, and knees are how I flavor if a DM challenges me on it.

Or headbutts! ;)

[Azgeroth]

sorry to nitpick..
Agile Parry. If you make an unarmed strike as part of
the Attack action on your turn and are holding a kensei
weapon, you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee
weapon.

you have to be holding the weapon when you make the (action) unarmed strike, so you would have to unarmed strike, then throw the spear, and draw another. it would still technically work RAW, but i would understand a DM ruling otherwise..

[quark12000]

sorry to nitpick..
Agile Parry. If you make an unarmed strike as part of
the Attack action on your turn and are holding a kensei
weapon, you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee
weapon.

you have to be holding the weapon when you make the (action) unarmed strike, so you would have to unarmed strike, then throw the spear, and draw another. it would still technically work RAW, but i would understand a DM ruling otherwise..

Yeah, as long as you have an Extra Attack, and use one of the Attacks to strike unarmed, I think it should work. If you only unarmed strike on your bonus action, I don't think it would.

[TheCleverGuy]

Absolutely a spear counts as a monk weapon. My Open Hand monk uses one, and will until 11th level for the extra damage.

As far as the rest of your question, if you're carrying two spears, I don't see why you couldn't do that.


sorry to nitpick..
Agile Parry. If you make an unarmed strike as part of
the Attack action on your turn and are holding a kensei
weapon, you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee
weapon.

you have to be holding the weapon when you make the (action) unarmed strike, so you would have to unarmed strike, then throw the spear, and draw another. it would still technically work RAW, but i would understand a DM ruling otherwise..

I see what you mean. I could probably just swap the order of 3 and 4 and be ok though.

[Azgeroth]

I see what you mean. I could probably just swap the order of 3 and 4 and be ok though.

absolutely,

you could also (without extra attack) use your action to unarmed strike, giving you a bonus action unarmed strike and get the +2 to AC. though no spear chucking in this instance i'm afraid.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Note there are some differing interpretations on the following points:

1. Whether you can pause the execution of an action and take another action inside it.

2. Whether "If/when you fulfil condition X on your turn, you may do Y with restriction Z" means that X and Z are checked/locked in at the same time, or if Z is only checked at the time of Y.

3. Whether "If/when you fulfil condition X on your turn, you may do Y with restriction Z" means you can do Y before fulfilling X by abstractly committing to doing so later if you can.

So check with your DM possibly.

[sophontteks]

The attack action can be broken up as you want. Drawing a weapon is not an action. Moving is not an action. So your good there. You can not, however use flurry between your attack action. It specifically says it comes after your attack action. You will have to attack unarmed as part of your attack action, and not a bonus action for the ac.

Thus 2 & 3 must be swapped. However, you can use the kensai throw as you wish. It doesn't say it must come after your attack.

[PeteNutButter]

Thrown weapons are not ranged weapons. That is a separate category on the chart. You cannot apply the -5/+10 from sharpshooter to a javelin for this reason. I’m AFB but depending on the wording you probably can’t use Kensei shot.

[TheCleverGuy]

The attack action can be broken up as you want. Drawing a weapon is not an action. Moving is not an action. So your good there. You can not, however use flurry between your attack action. It specifically says it comes after your attack action. You will have to attack unarmed as part of your attack action, and not a bonus action for the ac.

Thus 2 & 3 must be swapped. However, you can use the kensai throw as you wish. It doesn't say it must come after your attack.

I see, I can't split my two swings from the Attack action and stick a bonus action between them. That makes sense.

[sophontteks]

I see, I can't split my two swings from the Attack action and stick a bonus action between them. That makes sense.

You can. The attack action can be broken up as you wish. But flurry, monks unarmed strike, and dual wielding all come after the attack action. And this would mean after the full attack action.

It gets really confusing, but you could attack, use rogue cunning action, and attack again afaik. You can not attack, flurry and attack though.

[Rogerdodger557]

As long as the spear is one of your designated Kensei weapons. Normally, this wouldn't be a big deal, but since Kensei abilities specifically call for kensei weapons, not just monk weapons, by RAW it wouldn't work if you didn't pick the spear.

[quark12000]

You can. The attack action can be broken up as you wish. But flurry, monks unarmed strike, and dual wielding all come after the attack action. And this would mean after the full attack action.

It gets really confusing, but you could attack, use rogue cunning action, and attack again afaik. You can not attack, flurry and attack though.

I'm gonna need some documentation to back this up before I believe it.

[sophontteks]

I'm gonna need some documentation to back this up before I believe it.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/72888/can-you-break-up-your-attack-action-for-a-bonus-action
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/51525/shield-master-can-the-shield-push-be-taken-before-an-attack/56467
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/28/monk-bonus-attacks-beforeafterduring-attack-action/

It does say that regular extra unarmed attack can be used whenever, which is different then what I read elsewhere, but it makes sense.

BELIEVE:smallcool:

[Dudewithknives]

If your main weapon is already going to be a monk weapon, why bother with Kensei?

You could take any subclass you want.

Open hand if good, drunken master is also very good.

Long death is ok.

Sun soul is not built on melee really but could do it.

Shadow is nothing weapon specific but is very nice if built to use its abilities to the fullest.

5e desperately needs the adjusting spear of editions past and the blink back belt or more like blink back ring, due to no quick draw rules in 5e.

[TheCleverGuy]

If your main weapon is already going to be a monk weapon, why bother with Kensei?

I just like the flavor of the kensei, really, and I liked the versatility of the spear. It can be one-handed, two-handed, or thrown as the situation requires. Sounds like in practice it might not work out exactly the way I'm imagining it, but that's ok. This is all just hypothetical anyway, for some future campaign that may or may not ever happen.

[Coffee_Dragon]

The attack action can be broken up as you wish.

This is not strictly correct. The reason you can move or take a free object interaction in between or as part of attacks is not because the attack action says you can (it doesn't), but because those things explicitly say they work that way.


It does say that regular extra unarmed attack can be used whenever, which is different then what I read elsewhere, but it makes sense.

People on Stack Exchange are not necessarily better than others at parsing rules, and the linked SA tweet doesn't say you can take a bonus action inside an action (strictly speaking it doesn't say much of anything, just repeating part of the rules under debate).

[Mikal]

I just like the flavor of the kensei, really, and I liked the versatility of the spear. It can be one-handed, two-handed, or thrown as the situation requires. Sounds like in practice it might not work out exactly the way I'm imagining it, but that's ok. This is all just hypothetical anyway, for some future campaign that may or may not ever happen.

Plus mechanically you get a better ranged option with Longbows vs. Shortbows, as well as the extra damage. Minor, but useful.

[strangebloke]

You play kensei for the AC, not for the +1 to damage.

[Mikal]

You play kensei for the AC, not for the +1 to damage.

3.5 technically with Kensei's shot, also deft strike damage. Also sharpen the blade.

[Dudewithknives]

3.5 technically with Kensei's shot, also deft strike damage. Also sharpen the blade.

You will almost never use sharpen the blade, it does not stack with magic weapons that already have a +1/2/3 and you get it late enough you will have a +1/2/3 LONG before getting that ability, and it only works on your kensei weapons in the first place. So if for some reason you are disarmed of 1 your weapons you picked as a kensei weapon and there is another one around that is of the same weapon type, and is not magical with a +1/2/3 yet, sure. But at that point, you have the bonus speed to just go get your weapon or just attack unarmed anyway.

Deft Strike is a once per turn rather costly minor smite.

Kensei Shot is not bad but if you use it for the extra 1d4 on your 2 ranged attacks that means you can't use that bonus action for Flurry, Dodge, Disnegage or anything else. Could be worth it, but most of the time not so much past the opening round.

[Mikal]

You will almost never use sharpen the blade, it does not stack with magic weapons that already have a +1/2/3

Why would I use a +1 through +3 spear when I can sharpen the blade instead? And you assume I would have both ranged and melee magic weapons with pluses, which isn't guaranteed in 5e. Personally, if I was a Kensei and had any control over my magic items, I'd go for a flametongue style weapon over a basic + weapon for that very reason.


and you get it late enough you will have a +1/2/3 LONG before getting that ability, and it only works on your kensei weapons in the first place.

See above regarding assumptions on magic item availability. And the Kensei weapons.. yes? So? At that level you'll have the kensei weapons you care about in place already.


Deft Strike is a once per turn rather costly minor smite.

Yes? So?


Kensei Shot is not bad but if you use it for the extra 1d4 on your 2 ranged attacks that means you can't use that bonus action for Flurry, Dodge, Disnegage or anything else. Could be worth it, but most of the time not so much past the opening round.

Well if you're using Kensei Shot then you don't need to do most of the other options you're talking about. And it's much more worth it beyond the opening round. For example... flying enemies, or those you can't reach in melee for whatever reason.

[Dudewithknives]

Why would I use a +1 through +3 spear when I can sharpen the blade instead? And you assume I would have both ranged and melee magic weapons with pluses, which isn't guaranteed in 5e. Personally, if I was a Kensei and had any control over my magic items, I'd go for a flametongue style weapon over a basic + weapon for that very reason.



See above regarding assumptions on magic item availability. And the Kensei weapons.. yes? So? At that level you'll have the kensei weapons you care about in place already.



Yes? So?



Well if you're using Kensei Shot then you don't need to do most of the other options you're talking about. And it's much more worth it beyond the opening round. For example... flying enemies, or those you can't reach in melee for whatever reason.

You use a magic + whatever weapon because they do not cost you ki points every fight, costs your first bonus action and they are always active. I will take a +2 weapon over sharpen the blade every day. It is good for backup ranged weapon, that is all I would use it for. If the game is the 15 min work day or short rests any time you need it then it gets much better.

Also the OP planned to use a spear. The only ones he will ever find are +1/2/3's. There are no special spears. Unless the DM hand makes him one.

All monks can take out a bow, short for most but long if proficient like the many wood elf monks and shoot anyone anyway. A Kensei just gets the option to add 1d4 to those shots or to flurry at melee people if they don't use the bonus 1d4s. It is not bad, but at its core monks are melee combatants.

Mike Mearls just really wanted the zen archer to make it in the game and half assed it.

If there is ever an archer focused monk subclass I will be first in line.

There could be game where someone could make a Kensei work but it would just be much easier to use a normal monk weapon.

[Spiritchaser]

You will almost never use sharpen the blade, it does not stack with magic weapons that already have a +1/2/3 and you get it late enough you will have a +1/2/3 LONG before getting that ability

In some campaigns this will be the case, but in others it most definitely won’t be.

At the very least I’d suggest that this advice is campaign specific.

Kensai really shines in a crowd carrying +0 (but magical) and +1 weapons.

If it’s a high magic campaign, there’s always the argument that a flame tongue weapon that has been “sharpened” to plus three is one of the more potent things out there... though in fairness, I have never (yet) allowed this to happen.