How do mundanes scale?

[sorcererlover]

Interested in playing a mundane for the first time, but have absolutely no idea how they scale.

Damage is Weapon+Strength
Attack is BAB+Strength

I understand how attack scales because you gain 1 BAB every level, but I don't understand how damage scales. Weapon + Strength is acceptable at low levels, but your strength modifier increases by 1 every 8 levels. So through out my entire adventure, I will only gain an increase in 2 damage. 3 if I'm two-handed which I'm not sure I'll be. And Magic equipment gives +5.

So... with a damage increase of only +10 from levels 1-20 with a two-handed weapon with the help of items, I think I'm doing something wrong.

Is power attack seriously the only way any mundane build stays viable at higher levels?

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes. This is known as the quadratic wizard linear fighter problem.

People will suggest one of the following.

A) Become an Ubercharger who can scale linearly in a very steep angle so much it doesn't matter. You just kill whatever you swing at in one hit

B) Play a quadratic fighter, also known as a Warblade. You scale up to "+250 damage every other turn" at level 18. More flexible, but less damage than an ubercharger. Some complain it feels like a wizard with wierd spells.

C) Gain a ton of system mastery and play an 18/20+ CL 16+ BaB gish. Now you ARE a wizard, but a fighter too.

[Nifft]

Interested in playing a mundane for the first time, but have absolutely no idea how they scale.

Damage is Weapon+Strength
Attack is BAB+Strength

I understand how attack scales because you gain 1 BAB every level, but I don't understand how damage scales. Weapon + Strength is acceptable at low levels, but your strength modifier increases by 1 every 8 levels. So through out my entire adventure, I will only gain an increase in 2 damage. 3 if I'm two-handed which I'm not sure I'll be. And Magic equipment gives +5.

So... with a damage increase of only +10 from levels 1-20 with a two-handed weapon with the help of items, I think I'm doing something wrong.

Is power attack seriously the only way any mundane build stays viable at higher levels?

You do get damage from other sources, particularly magic weapons & magic effects.

+1d6 energy damage from an energy weapon (e.g. Flaming / Frost / Shock).

+2d6 untyped damage from a Bane weapon.

+5 or more via Inspire Courage from a friendly Bard.

Weapon dice size increase from a friendly Wizard polymorphing you into a Storm Giant.

Extra attacks (albeit at lower attack bonus) ought to contribute some extra damage, too.


But overall, the stuff Fouredged Sword is saying is exactly correct -- with some notable exceptions, it's mostly true that a weapon-using melee-type can't keep up at high levels.

[Bakkan]

You can get better than +5 using magic. For instance, an energy enhancement (flaming, shocking, etc.) will add +1d6 damage for the cost of a +1 bonus, and the Collision enhancement will add 5 damage for the cost of a +2 bonus.

As your BAB increases, you will gain additional attacks on a full attack, increasing your expected damage output as well.

Feats can be used to increase your damage, from the fairly weak Weapon Specialization (+2 damage) to the more interesting Knowledge Devotion (+1-5 attack and damage). Dipping into a Psionic class or taking the Hidden Talent feat opens up the Psionic Weapon feat (+2d6 damage),

You can get additional damage by having a friendly bard buff you with Inspire Courage (+1-4 or more attack and damage) or Dragonfire Inspiration (+1d6-+4d6 or more energy damage). If you are a ranger fighting a favored enemy, you get an additional +2-10 damage.

At the end of the day, the best way to handle this issue, in my opinion, is to look at the material in the Tome of Battle, as Fouredged Sword suggested.

[Cosi]

The general strategy is to get a per-attack damage bonus (Power Attack, Swift Hunter Skirmish, Bardblade + Dragonfire Inspiration, Sneak Attack) and a bunch of bonus attacks (either TWF or Ranging, you need less with Power Attack because you can get stupid huge multipliers).

[Necroticplague]

You forgot the STR scaling from STR boosting magic items.

But yeah, mundane scaling is crap, that’s one reason why mundanes are considered inferior to non-mundanes.

You start off with +6 accuracy for 2d6+7 damage (20 STR starting). You end off with +38 to hit with 2d6+24 damage. (20 starting+5 inherent +6 enhancement +5 leveling=36 STR).

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you take full attacks as a baseline, damage goes up at +6, +11, +16 base attack; not by an attack's worth, but some increase nonetheless.

Taking Necroticplague's numbers, you're going from +6 (2d6+7) [avg. 14 * hit chance] to +38/+33/+28/+23 (2d6+24) [avg. 31 * hit chance + 31 * hit chance - 25% + 31 * hit chance - 50% + 31 * hit chance - 75%] (with hit chance at least 5% each time, and scaling past 100% for higher bonuses). That last one reduces to [31 * hit chance * 2.5] if your worst attack hits on something lower than 20, but your first attack misses on something higher than a 1 (the narrow AC range of 40-42).

If you're looking at about 77 damage per full attack, you're roughly equalling--slightly bettering--a 20d6 damaging spell or a single attack with 10d6 sneak attack on top. It would also take you about 5 rounds to burn through a CR-appropriate dragon (that's mature adult at CR 18 with 312 hp, or old at CR 20 with 378 hp). That's your WotC balance point :smalltongue:.


(Though these dragons have much lower AC, and can be hit with your first three iteratives.)

[Anthrowhale]

There are a few strategies not mentioned yet.

1) A War Hulking Hurler can do very large damage by throwing very heavy objects at things. Damage exponentiates with level due to per-level strength increases combined with weight-based damage.
2) Power Attack can be freely used via Deep Impact. This might allow you to make an Ubercharger which avoids having a crap AC although the restriction to one attack roll is rough.
3) Power Shot/Power Throw can be freely used via Fell Shot. Combined with Multishot, this can do significant damage.
4) Power Throw can be freely used via 'weak spot' from Master Thrower. Remember that touch attacks bypass damage reduction.
5) It's possible to stack magical damage from 3 sources (launcher, projectile, spell) on projectile weapons allowing you to build to significant damage. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22350680&postcount=1481) for a core-only Fighter (archer) that is a lethal threat to CR20 monsters.
6) Iajutsu focus on an Iajutsu Master can do 9*(cha+d6) damage.

[sorcererlover]

So that's it? Iterative attacks and magic weapons or str boosters? and Power attack?

Ok I'm losing my interest in mundanes. I guess I'll look into melee clerics.

[Fouredged Sword]

So that's it? Iterative attacks and magic weapons or str boosters? and Power attack?

Ok I'm losing my interest in mundanes. I guess I'll look into melee clerics.

Take a good look at the tome of battle. It is how melee really should be with spell like class features called maneuvers that refresh frequently and do awesome fightery stuff. Solid tier 3.

[Nifft]

So that's it? Iterative attacks and magic weapons or str boosters? and Power attack?

Ok I'm losing my interest in mundanes. I guess I'll look into melee clerics.

Melee cleric is going to be a lot more powerful, yeah.

If the rest of your group is low-power, though, then there's nothing wrong with picking a low-power PC to play alongside them.

[retaliation08]

It is sometimes tedious when your only shtick in combat is "I attack him with my sword."
Especially when combat is probably your favored environment.
I've had fun mundane characters though.
Give it a try and have another caster on the backburner.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Interested in playing a mundane for the first time, but have absolutely no idea how they scale.

Damage is Weapon+Strength
Attack is BAB+Strength

I understand how attack scales because you gain 1 BAB every level, but I don't understand how damage scales. Weapon + Strength is acceptable at low levels, but your strength modifier increases by 1 every 8 levels. So through out my entire adventure, I will only gain an increase in 2 damage. 3 if I'm two-handed which I'm not sure I'll be. And Magic equipment gives +5.

So... with a damage increase of only +10 from levels 1-20 with a two-handed weapon with the help of items, I think I'm doing something wrong.

Is power attack seriously the only way any mundane build stays viable at higher levels?

Multiple attacks is the basic scaling mechanic.

You also forgot about magic strength boosting and attack granting gear and other options.

By the forum's standard optimization advice, you're doing it wrong if you're not sporting strength 36 by level 20; a +13 bonus to attack (feed most of that to PA) and +19 to damage on a two-hander or +13 and +6 if you're using two weapons.

That's a straight martial character like a fighter, barb, or samurai.

Skill types usually scale by some kind of precision damage; sneak attack, skirmish, etc.



So that's it? Iterative attacks and magic weapons or str boosters? and Power attack?

Ok I'm losing my interest in mundanes. I guess I'll look into melee clerics.

Maybe ease into it with a ranger. There's fun stuff there and you don't have to give up magic altogether.

[sorcererlover]

I'm not interested in magic for this build, but I'm also not interested in being completely dependent on magical gear I can't craft.

I'll think about it some more. Two-handed power attack is what I'm looking for so I should be ok on the damage front, but I'm not going ubercharger. I want this guy to be slow, grounded, virtually invincible, not very mobile, single powerful hit hitter and not some guy who jumps into the sky and scratches people with a ton of attacks like with pounce.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm not interested in magic for this build, but I'm also not interested in being completely dependent on magical gear I can't craft.

I'll think about it some more. Two-handed power attack is what I'm looking for so I should be ok on the damage front, but I'm not going ubercharger. I want this guy to be slow, grounded, virtually invincible, not very mobile, single powerful hit hitter and not some guy who jumps into the sky and scratches people with a ton of attacks like with pounce.
Well, there's the Inevitable Nightmare build. It uses a combination of Stormguard Warrior, Deep Impact, Power Attack, and the Nightmare Blade line of maneuvers. Originally a warforged warblade 18/psywar 2 (not in that order), but you can fit any race in there.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not interested in magic for this build, but I'm also not interested in being completely dependent on magical gear I can't craft.

I'll think about it some more. Two-handed power attack is what I'm looking for so I should be ok on the damage front, but I'm not going ubercharger. I want this guy to be slow, grounded, virtually invincible, not very mobile, single powerful hit hitter and not some guy who jumps into the sky and scratches people with a ton of attacks like with pounce.

All* 3e characters are reliant on magic to the extent that no character beyond about level 5 should be without at least one light on his Christmas tree.

If purchased or found gear ruffles your jimmies then consider the battlesmith prestige class. The secrets of the forge class feature gives you both the craft arms and armour feat and a CL of 3 times your battlesmith level to use it. You still have to find other sources for prerequisites beyond CL though. The ironsoul forgemaster also gets secrets of the forge but incarnum is pretty far from mundane**.


*Technically a forsaker(MotW) build that buys his gear from a gnome artificer (MoF) can go a shockingly long way without magic but that's literally the only thing I can think of.

**Classes that lack magic of their own altogether are a -long- ways from mundane. Just sayin'.

[tiercel]

Obligatory link to Dictum Mortuum's Fighter Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-fighters-handbook-general.html) (not that "mundane" necessarily means "Fighter" per se, of course, but it probably doesn't get much more "mundane" than the much-maligned Fighter)

There isn't really pure "mundane" though as Kelb has pointed out: at the very least, magic gear is part of the core of the game, especially for folks who can't sling around their own magic -- and a lot of "mundanes" either have limited spellcasting, PrCs which grant spells or (Sp) or (Su), or even just good ol' Use Magic Device.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Monks can get some damned fine damage in, too. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863)

[Troacctid]

Honestly, you can scale pretty well just by investing ranks in Climb.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Honestly, you can scale pretty well just by investing ranks in Climb.Or by being a half-dragon.

Or for those who aren't retarded, dragonborn.

[Fouredged Sword]

Take a look at incarnum if you want to craft your own gear without spells. An Incarnate 2 / Fighter x / Ironsoul Forgemaster 10 is a solid dwarf build. You rack up REALLY good energy resistances and can and should craft your own gear.

There is even an incarnum feat that makes power attack better.

[martixy]

Yes. This is known as the quadratic wizard linear fighter problem.

That's a feature though.
Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards)(TVTropes)

[ericgrau]

Interested in playing a mundane for the first time, but have absolutely no idea how they scale.

Damage is Weapon+Strength
Attack is BAB+Strength

I understand how attack scales because you gain 1 BAB every level, but I don't understand how damage scales. Weapon + Strength is acceptable at low levels, but your strength modifier increases by 1 every 8 levels. So through out my entire adventure, I will only gain an increase in 2 damage. 3 if I'm two-handed which I'm not sure I'll be. And Magic equipment gives +5.

So... with a damage increase of only +10 from levels 1-20 with a two-handed weapon with the help of items, I think I'm doing something wrong.

Is power attack seriously the only way any mundane build stays viable at higher levels?
Multiple attacks, magic item damage, ability scores, feats/class-abilities (like rage). It's roughly quadratic, as is monster HP. So even in a core only build it takes about 2-2.5 rounds to drop a "difficult" foe at all levels. Both low and high. "Difficult" means EL="difficult"=party level+2, 1 foe for each PC. Build an actual character with correct WBL and look up average monster stats if you want more details.

Power attack almost always decreases damage at high level. If you use optimization tricks like shock trooper then you can do something with it. Above was without power attack. Just some basic damage abilities & items and smack foe over and over again without any strategy nor optimization combos. 2.5 rounds is sword and board. I forget THF but I think it's about 2 rounds.

I gtg, don't have time to pull up the figures and it's probably better if people do that themselves anyway. Keeps away the guessing and speculation. Go build your character, pull up some average monster stats, calculate damage per round, change some abilities and retweak from there.

[Deadline]

In summary, "How do Mundanes scale?"

Badly, at least in comparison to spellcasting foes.

Also, while the obligatory "Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards" has been posted, I have not seen the related "Angel Summoner & BMX Bandit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr-PSjHEk_M&list=PLXEe9gEX_-A1AXikG95a0CboTeecchG88)" posted (albeit that has more to do with the difficulties one might see with an unbalanced party).

[Endarire]

Mundales scale best when polymorphed.

I researched the ubercharging Hood Guide (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=7200) for weeks. They're the best example of 'mundanes' in 3.5: Lots of damage, lots of potential mobility, some need for (and often a strong desire for) spells to help them with things they can't do.

If you want a strong example of this phenomenon in theory, just look at the stats of the most powerful D&D 3.5 Animals you can find. A Druid of ample level can Wild Shape into them (using that creature's STR, DEX, and CON scores instead of his own, amongst other things) and possibly summon them spontaneously via summon nature's ally, and possibly also get one as a long-term Animal Companion. This is how the B^3 meme started (that is, a Bear who summons Bears while riding Bears).

But let's also consider how long these mundanes are viable in actual play. I've rarely played a game beyond level 6, and during that time, mundanes have been useful. In a current campaign, we have a Scout/Mystic Ranger with the Swift Hunter feat who focuses on archery damage and he's been the most reliable high-damage dealer in our group. He's lamanted he couldn't do much more than that, but he's sort of a ranged Hood on a much lower damage standard.

[emeraldstreak]

Interested in playing a mundane for the first time, but have absolutely no idea how they scale.

Damage is Weapon+Strength
Attack is BAB+Strength

I understand how attack scales because you gain 1 BAB every level, but I don't understand how damage scales. Weapon + Strength is acceptable at low levels, but your strength modifier increases by 1 every 8 levels. So through out my entire adventure, I will only gain an increase in 2 damage. 3 if I'm two-handed which I'm not sure I'll be. And Magic equipment gives +5.

So... with a damage increase of only +10 from levels 1-20 with a two-handed weapon with the help of items, I think I'm doing something wrong.

Is power attack seriously the only way any mundane build stays viable at higher levels?


Unarmed Strike literally scales quadratically, one arm being the level of the strike, and the other being the size of the strike. By mid levels it's possible to pull things like this (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1133161)

[Eldariel]

Gearless caster is easy. Gearless mundane is sorta doable but you have to optimise pretty high and have both, a solid melee and a solid ranged plan at place. And some nonmagical special gear (Serrenwood bow is just about the only way to means to influence incorporeals with absolutely no magic; Riverine is clearly magic but also works) is required for some basic competencies, and you need to work awfully hard to keep your numbers up to the usual standards. And you're still stonewalled by many simple obstacles.

For your concept, the epic PRC Unstoppable Juggernaut would be interesting. Sadly it's available way too late. Frenzied Berserker sorta gets interesting stuff like PA multiplication and momentary immortality, but with huge downsides. War Hulk emphasises the "one hit"-aspect but requires Large race, being more race-based than anything. Warblade or Crusader is your best bet for an immovable mundane jugggernaut, preferably with splashes of other warrior classes.

The big thing you skipped out on is class features though. Rage for instance is +2 hit, +3 damage from just a level.

[ericgrau]

So that's it? Iterative attacks and magic weapons or str boosters? and Power attack?

Ok I'm losing my interest in mundanes. I guess I'll look into melee clerics.

Plus boots of speed and so forth. Weapon crystals, poison at mid levels only (and mostly drow poison). Sling & alchemical items at lower level and composite bow eventually with bane arrows at high level for ranged backup. It does work, but no, exciting it is not without gear. Since you want a lot of magical doodads you might try a gish and or a 1 level dip for wand/staff use. And/or look at magic item compendium tables sorted by cost, cheapest first. Grabbing 50 cheap magical toys is extremely fun even if you have no spellcasting of your own.

Due to their spell list I think melee clerics tend to be pretty dull to play too. I'd do an arcane gish if you like fun tricks. Or a casting cleric who also happens to melee a little, but isn't focused on it.