Feat to change what ability score an ability is based on?

[Yogibear41]

Is there a feat in 3.5 of pathfinder (or even a 3rd party book) that allows a creature to change what ability the save DC of one of its attacks is based on.

Say for example I have a construct creature that has an ability with a Save DC based on Con, now as a construct it will never have a Con score, so the only way that its ability DC could be increased is by taking ability focus, advancing its hit die, or something similar. Looking for other options that could boost the DC.

[Zaq]

I think there are a few feats for specific abilities (Undead Meldshaper comes to mind), but I’m not aware of any all-purpose feats printed by WotC that do exactly that.

It would be trivial to homebrew such a thing (or even just to houserule it without a feat cost, depending on the specifics), but I don’t know of anything official. If 3rd party is on the table, just make the feat yourself and clear it with your GM, since it’s unlikely to break anything.

[Venger]

as Zaq says, nothing meeting your specifications exists.

What ability specifically are you looking to boost? Like he says, there may not be another generalized booster like ability focus, but there are many niche options, such as improved paralysis

[Yogibear41]

The example I listed a Construct with a Con based poison.
I know of a Handful of feats that could give it +2, etc. was looking for something for more long term scaling though.

[daremetoidareyo]

The example I listed a Construct with a Con based poison.
I know of a Handful of feats that could give it +2, etc. was looking for something for more long term scaling though.

RAW: non abilities default to Charisma for spelllikes and supernatural abilities, don't they?

[The Viscount]

RAW: non abilities default to Charisma for spelllikes and supernatural abilities, don't they?

Not quite.

The default ability for any spell-like ability or supernatural ability for a monster is Charisma (supernatural says "usually" and SLA just says Cha) as per the rules on the srd.

The rules for nonabilities make no discussion of using other abilities. Undead specify in type that they use their Charisma for Concentration checks, but nothing else.
Construct lacks undead's clause.

All this being said, there are examples of monsters where they used different abilities as one time exceptions. For example, the Wheep has a poison DC based off of Charisma. They don't do it all the time, as seen in the Bhut.

If you're making this creature as the DM you'd be within your rights to just shift the DC to be Cha based.

If you're doing this as a PC, then I think you'd have to rely on feats like ability focus and virulent poison to up the DC. If you're using something specific we might be able to give better help.

[Yogibear41]

It was for a homunculus, which specifically calls out its Con based, so oh well.

[Venger]

well you can be constructed with more hd, depending on how much money your master spends on you. that'll boost the dc.

[daremetoidareyo]

Can the homnoculous have class levels?

[DrMotives]

Nothing in the homunculus description seems to prevent it from gaining class levels, so yes. Pretty much anything with an intelligence greater than 3 can get class levels. They can't speak though, so spellcasting classes will suffer on them. Silent spell becomes a feat tax, and bard homunculi have several abilities neutralized.

[PacMan2247]

Nothing in the homunculus description seems to prevent it from gaining class levels, so yes. Pretty much anything with an intelligence greater than 3 can get class levels. They can't speak though, so spellcasting classes will suffer on them. Silent spell becomes a feat tax, and bard homunculi have several abilities neutralized.

Not all homunculi are created equal: the Expeditious Messenger from Eberron can speak, and most varieties have functional hands, so they'd be able to manage a musical instrument and somatic components. That said, the ability scores aren't impressive. Homunculi all seem to have above-average Wisdom, so maybe an Ardent focused on buffing and healing? Then again, I'd lean toward Artificer for a classed homunculus, for the "machines making machines" flavor.

[Thurbane]

RAW: non abilities default to Charisma for spelllikes and supernatural abilities, don't they?


Not quite.

The default ability for any spell-like ability or supernatural ability for a monster is Charisma (supernatural says "usually" and SLA just says Cha) as per the rules on the srd.

The rules for nonabilities make no discussion of using other abilities. Undead specify in type that they use their Charisma for Concentration checks, but nothing else.
Construct lacks undead's clause.

All this being said, there are examples of monsters where they used different abilities as one time exceptions. For example, the Wheep has a poison DC based off of Charisma. They don't do it all the time, as seen in the Bhut.

If you're making this creature as the DM you'd be within your rights to just shift the DC to be Cha based.

If you're doing this as a PC, then I think you'd have to rely on feats like ability focus and virulent poison to up the DC. If you're using something specific we might be able to give better help.
I feel this is relevant:


Charisma: A creature’s Charisma modifier affects the save DC for any spell-like abilities it has. Use Charisma for anything pitting the creature’s will against an opponent, such as gaze attacks, charms, compulsions, and energy drain effects. Also use Charisma for any DC that normally would be based on an ability score the creature does not have. For example, undead have no Constitution score, so any poison attack an undead creature has would use Charisma to determine the save DC.

[daremetoidareyo]

Charisma boost the homunculus it is then

[Venger]

I feel this is relevant:

setting aside that this section is for applying templates, it'd be secondary source. the viscount quoted the primary rules on nonabilities, so when something else says something incorrect and contradictory, it can safely be ignored.

[Yogibear41]

It was for a possible familiar, just looking for additional ways to make it relevant, probably going to do something else anyway.

[Ringadon]

I'm suppressed no-one has mentioned Person Man's X Stat to Y Bonus list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) admittedly it's a little under maintained but if there's something that'll get you what you want that's the first place I'd check.

[ShurikVch]

Hey!
Does anybody actually noticed most forms of Homunculi are have Cha penalty?
Thus going from Con to Cha will be strait downgrade.
The only Homunculus with Cha bonus (AFAIK) is the Sobetetan Messenger (Secrets of the Alubelok Coast) with Cha 12, but it's poison already have the highest DC among Homunculi (15)

[Thurbane]

Hey!
Does anybody actually noticed most forms of Homunculi are have Cha penalty?
Thus going from Con to Cha will be strait downgrade.
The only Homunculus with Cha bonus (AFAIK) is the Sobetetan Messenger (Secrets of the Alubelok Coast) with Cha 12, but it's poison already have the highest DC among Homunculi (15)

While this is true, it's a lot easier to pump up a low stat than a non-stat.

There's some other ways that spring to mind to pump the DC for special attacks, not relying on a stat:

Ability Focus (obviously; most of the others should stack with this)
Sudden Ability Focus (ToM): +2 to DC of a supernatural attack, 1/day
Improved Paralysis (LM): +4 DC to paralysis attack (must be undead)
Irresistible Gaze (SS): +2 DC to gaze attack
Reverberation (SS): +2 DC on a sonic special attack
Virulent Poison (SS): +2 DC on a poison attack

[The Viscount]

setting aside that this section is for applying templates, it'd be secondary source. the viscount quoted the primary rules on nonabilities, so when something else says something incorrect and contradictory, it can safely be ignored.

No, I'll cop to being incorrect about this one. It's still guidance about making monsters, so it's explaining their design philosophy. The editing and placing of information for nonabilities is already all over the place, what's one more entry placed in a confusing location?

Good find, Thurbane, and my apologies for trying to correct you when I was in the wrong, daremetoidareyou