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View Full Version : DM Help Devil society, adventures in hell, etc.



RealMarkP
2018-04-16, 05:52 PM
Been planning a new campaign (many months down the road). I'm thinking it will be an evil campaign, set partially in Faerun and partially in the 9 Hells. Characters will be recently deceased/recently spawned devils. Here is the kicker: the characters' souls were meant to become demons, because of <backstory reasons>. As the souls were floating around the abyss, the somehow found a way to get into the 9 hells (again, because of <backstory> reasons). A partially formed demon soul starts to be twisted by the 9 hells and what ends up is a demon-devil hybrid. These hybrids (or "degenerates", as they will be called) look mostly like a devil with some demonic template applied. Obviously they are not true devils and are shunned and treated as fodder. The main mechanic that will drive this story is that these devils can possess mortals, which will be a better way to get souls into Hell than the current way devils operate. The main campaign will revolve around trying to get more souls into hell via possession. Feel free to comment on this approach; I'm not even sold on it.

So, looking at Devil/Demon society, there are two main sources in the 3.5e universe: Fiend Folio and Book of Vile Darkness. I'll be playing 5e, but the fluff and setting will transcend editions. Are there any other resources that I could look into to get a feel what Devils do on their day-to-day (again, not bound to edition or WoTC books)? Truenaming seems to pop up, is there more info on this and is it worth looking into?

Lastly, what would adventures look like in a highly lawful-evil environment? The material plane is a smattering of alignments and settings which makes for an interesting clash of ideas and perspectives to explore. Hell seems very monotonic and rigid.

hamishspence
2018-04-16, 05:57 PM
So, looking at Devil/Demon society, there are two main sources in the 3.5e universe: Fiend Folio and Book of Vile Darkness.

Fiendish Codex 1 & 2 (1 is demons, 2 is devils), not Fiend Folio - Fiend Folio is just another Monster Manual with a different name, though it does have stats for a few devils and demons.

JoeJ
2018-04-16, 06:15 PM
Several of the Planescape supplements deal with Hell. That's the first place I'd look.

RealMarkP
2018-04-16, 06:49 PM
Planescape! I totally forgot that was a thing.

What would you say from the Pathfinder or other 3rd party universes?

PersonMan
2018-04-17, 02:45 AM
Pathfinder unfortunately lacks the kind of big setting books 3.5 has, but their Book of the Damned [Roleplaying Game] book is solid if you're looking for a large number of bigshot demons and devils (and daemons) to use. It also has boons for people who worship (and do proper ritual-obediences for) said bigshots.

There's also the Pathfinder Chronicles Book of the Damned Volumes 1 [Devils] and 2 [Demons], but the [RPG] line Book of the Damned is basically made by combining those two with Volume 3 of the Pathfinder Chronicles Book of the Damned, so it'd be redundant to get the RPG-line BotD and those.

Oh! Pathfinder also has Demons Revisited and Hell Unleashed (both Pathfinder Chronicles, which are all 68 pages long in PDFs), but those are focused on fleshing out specific demons/devils moreso than providing general setting info, IIRC.

icefractal
2018-04-17, 08:37 PM
Not based on exact canon but -
Let's look at how Hell would be designed to operate:
1) The 'people' on top tend to stay on top.
2) However, /nobody/ is safe. Nobody can ever feel secure or stop hustling, because the vulture are circling at every moment.
3) Being ruthless, backstabbing, sadistic - these are the keys to success, to a better 'life' in Hell. Because every part of the system is set up to promote that.

So toward that end, I recommend combining the worst aspects of several systems:
1) Everything is for sale. Everything, including things that couldn't normally be sold, like memories and emotions. Contracts are rigidly enforced, no matter how unfair or deceptive. The average damned soul is deeply in debt from the moment they arrive.
2) However, if you thought enough Hell Money would keep you safe, prepare for disappointment. There's also a baroque system of noble titles and bureaucratic positions that give the holders potentially any kind of authority. Many of these positions are secret and forbidden to be mentioned, up to the moment they suddenly confiscate - for instance - your legs. Oh, and the holders aren't safe themselves either, of course - the network of overlapping authority would be a nightmare to map even if parts of it weren't a secret.

So combine a 1984-style dystopia with a hypercapitalist dystopia, throw in a dash of exaggerated medieval "nobles can kill any commoner they feel like on a whim", and that sounds like a good starting point.

RealMarkP
2018-04-17, 09:15 PM
Not based on exact canon but -
So combine a 1984-style dystopia with a hypercapitalist dystopia, throw in a dash of exaggerated medieval "nobles can kill any commoner they feel like on a whim", and that sounds like a good starting point.

Yeah, that's what I'm after. I learned quite a bit on my recent trip to India about the caste system, so throwing one into this society might work very well. Feel free to keep talking. This is all gold.

Zejety
2018-04-18, 09:08 AM
The brimstone angels series of novels offers a few insights here and there on how a few devils spend their days in Malborge, but reading multiple novels might not be worth it for your purposes. :-/

spineyrequiem
2018-04-18, 10:38 AM
Have you looked at 'Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells'? Has some info you could find very useful.

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-18, 10:47 AM
What would you say from the Pathfinder or other 3rd party universes?

3rd party would depend. Pathfinder? This is going to vary from table to table, but I HATE what Golarion did to the fiends. They are too gendered! How do you have a gendered demon! You can't categorize a demon, that's the whole point! What, it's reproducing in a normal, natural way? Yeah, no. And devils have essentially become neckbeards, which for me, ruins their cunning and mystique of being centuries old beings partially removed from humanity.

Doubling down on the Fiendish Codexes. One issue is that hell tends a bit much on the Ice/Fire side of things, but that can be easily fixed. Graz'zt, a scheming Demon Prince who was briefly a devil (Maybe?) seems like he would be a good fit for orchestrating this plot, or at least trying to exploit it.

Karmea
2018-04-19, 06:15 AM
Several of the Planescape supplements deal with Hell.

Namely Faces of Evil: The Fiends, Hellbound: The Blood War, Planes of Law and Fires of Dis. Probably some others too. Planewalker (http://mimir.planewalker.com/planar-locations/outer/baator) also has some decent fluffy baatorian homebrew.

Bohandas
2018-04-19, 11:42 PM
Are you looking for official answers or original ideas?

EDIT:


Doubling down on the Fiendish Codexes. One issue is that hell tends a bit much on the Ice/Fire side of things, but that can be easily fixed. Graz'zt, a scheming Demon Prince who was briefly a devil (Maybe?) seems like he would be a good fit for orchestrating this plot, or at least trying to exploit it.

My headcanon is that he's the child of Zargon and Pale Night

EDIT:

1) Everything is for sale. Everything, including things that couldn't normally be sold, like memories and emotions. Contracts are rigidly enforced, no matter how unfair or deceptive. The average damned soul is deeply in debt from the moment they arrive.

As an addendum to this I would have that almost nothing is legal by default, but if you're willing to fill out enough forms and wait in enough lines and pay enough money you can get a permit for just about anything, including treason and murder; just make sure that you also have a license for the murder weapon, and a permit to be in the area where the murder is to take place, and to interact with the intended victim, and to wear whatever you will be wearing, and especially make sure that you actually successfully kill them once you have filed an official notice of intent to kill.

EDIT:
Also, another good route to take would be to borrow from the game Paranoia but replace the super-science stuff with magic\

EDIT:

So combine a 1984-style dystopia with a hypercapitalist dystopia,

I had an idea where maybe part of hell (most likely Avernus as Bel cares little for internal affairs) is actually a representative democracy but every candidate is a mass murdering tyrant. And control of Avernus' internal affairs would be the focus of a struggle between the Procrustean Party who want to stamp out all individuality in the multiverse and also work harder on damning souls and turning them into devils, and on the other side the Authoritarian Party, who want the layer to be ruled by a heirarchial regime where differently ranked castes share nothing in common and the powerful prey on the weak and they also want to double down on the war effort.

Bohandas
2018-04-22, 04:42 PM
More random thoughts on devils:

*Survaillance and security should be ubiquitous, especially in Dis and Nessus. There should be roving patrols and lots of security checkpoints where people are strip searched and scanned with detect chaos, detect law, and detect thoughts. Also, lanterns of revealing everywhere.

*Prima nocta is probably a thing

*Perhaps devils' physical traits such as hair color, sex, height, etc. are designated by their superiors (and usually chosen to be deliberately inconvenient) rather than being random.

*Everything should be taxed and some things that happen in different stages should be taxed at every stage. In addition to an income tax, sales tax, and property tax, there's also a work tax, a not-working tax, a savings tax, and a shopping tax assessed whenever you enter a store.

*Plagues by mandate: Occasionally certain things are arbitrarily declared unclean by the high ups and anyone who has had recent contact with something so designated is made sick even if/though the things in question likely have no actual pathogens or curses

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-24, 11:51 AM
*Prima nocta is probably a thing

I don't think devils reproduce sexually, so what is the point of marriage as anything other then a less temporary alliance? Then again, since many devils you fight are pretty monstrous without obvious naughty bits and an emphasis on a lack of individuality my head canon for the hells is that sex/gender are privileges of rank. Heck, could probably be designated by someone else, but that might lead to uncomfortable territory for some.

hamishspence
2018-04-24, 11:57 AM
I don't think devils reproduce sexually, so what is the point of marriage as anything other then a less temporary alliance?

They do with mortals - hence half-fiends and tieflings.

Erinyes also do so with one another.

"Unique female devils", female erinyes, and pleasure devils (an advanced variant of erinyes), are all capable of getting pregnant with another devil as the father.

Asmodeus's consort Bensozia was a unique female devil - the two had a daughter, Glasya, before Bensozia was murdered.

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-24, 12:00 PM
They do with mortals - hence half-fiends and tieflings.

In most editions of DnD, sex isn't actually 100% required for that. Contact with infernal magic or a pact will do the trick just nicely.


Erinyes also do so with one another.

Never heard of that, what is that from? Also, many Erinyes are fallen celestials and might follow a different pattern.


"Unique female devils", female erinyes, and pleasure devils (an advanced variant of erinyes), are all capable of getting pregnant with another devil as the father.

Asmodeus's consort Bensozia was a unique female devil - the two had a daughter, Glasya, before Bensozia was murdered.

If you have to be a unique female devil to get preggers, I think my approach of having it be the exclusive domain of higher ranking devils makes perfect sense.

hamishspence
2018-04-24, 12:22 PM
Never heard of that, what is that from?

Tyrants of the Nine Hells, - it talks about young erinyes are "the only true offspring in Hell" - and that their parents are fiercely protective and raise them in colonies away from interlopers.

Exemplars of Evil also has a male erinyes as a henchman to one of the main villains.




My headcanon is that he's the child of Zargon and Pale Night


I liked the theory (in, I think, Demonomicon: Grazzt, in one of the first online Dragon Magazine issues) that he was the child of Nyarlathothep the Crawling Chaos, out of Cthulhu Mythos.

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-24, 12:30 PM
Tyrants of the Nine Hells, - it talks about young erinyes are "the only true offspring in Hell" - and that their parents are fiercely protective and raise them in colonies away from interlopers.

I thought that was because they were ex-celestials, so that ability wouldn't be common among other devils, which still doesn't explain why sexual reproduction would be necessary for most devils.

hamishspence
2018-04-24, 12:32 PM
The impression I got was that all male devils are capable of getting mortals pregnant - and that any female devil capable of getting pregnant in the first place, can do so with a male devil.

Bohandas
2018-04-24, 12:48 PM
I don't think devils reproduce sexually, so what is the point of marriage as anything other then a less temporary alliance? Then again, since many devils you fight are pretty monstrous without obvious naughty bits and an emphasis on a lack of individuality my head canon for the hells is that sex/gender are privileges of rank. Heck, could probably be designated by someone else, but that might lead to uncomfortable territory for some.

*I'm thinking that the sex you want is a privelege of rank and everyone else is deliberately given a body that is exactly opposite their internal gender identity and has to deal with it or else

*Marriage is a social institution and that's all that's needed for Baator to have it. I'm thinking in Hell it would somehow (not sure of the specifics) combine all the myriads of unspoken social rules of the dating scene with all the coldness and greed of an arranged marriage set up for monetary or political gain.

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-24, 01:04 PM
The impression I got was that all male devils are capable of getting mortals pregnant - and that any female devil capable of getting pregnant in the first place, can do so with a male devil.

I guess? I don't really think they ever went into the details of fiend sex, other than the fact that Graz'zt's other great sword does have a resume in all of the half-fiends he's made personally. It's heavily implied that THOSE were made with the beast with two backs, given his MO. I could also see Baalzebul not being able to function in this way due to the Big A's punishment. Also, it would certainly keep his daughter away from him.

Something tells me that trying to describe devil sex would have made DnD really hard to sell at Barnes and Noble, but I don't know.


*Marriage is a social institution and that's all that's needed for Baator to have it. I'm thinking in Hell it would somehow (not sure of the specifics) combine all the myriads of unspoken social rules of the dating scene with all the coldness and greed of an arranged marriage set up for monetary or political gain.

Oh, not arguing that, but it does make Prima Nocta, well, different, if sex is divorced from marriage. Any surviving devil has probably been married 50 times already, through, are you a virgin if you have a completely new body through metamorphosis? Through I wonder if any Devil has tried to enact this and then realized that they never gave that particular devil a gender or naughty bits. Screw it, you're a male for 20 minutes, let's go.

Bohandas
2018-06-17, 12:06 PM
Just remembered an important idea I had for Hell that I initially forgot to post:

Massive overreach of intellectual property law. Every individual word in the infernal tongue, as well as most of the more important phrases and combinations of words, is owned by someone. If you speak or write the owrd you owe the owner money. The owner of a word can also forbid others from using that word, although these prohibitions do not apply to devils of higher rank than the owner (who will typically be of one of the highest ranks anyway, so this exception doesn't come up often). Sometimes a word will be owned by one devil and a phrase containing it will be owned by another and speaking that phrase will incur fees to both of them. You run up expenses just by speaking or writing. Speaking in a different language is forbidden without a license and runs up fines. And you must answer the patrolling guards' and sentries' questions; failing to do so will earn you a beating or worse.

The individual letters of the Infernal alphabet each have an owner as well. The Abyssal language uses Infernal script purely out of spite for the Infernal letter owners, who are unable to collect on people who use the letters who are far outside of Baatoran jurisdiction.