Shield as a main weapon?

[OzDragon]

I'm working on a build that uses a shield in one hand and the other empty for grappling. Think Captain America.

My thought is thought a lifetime of study/practice he has learned to use his shield as an offensive weapon and still use it for defense as well.
I'm not trying to get cheesy with it as a light weapon or offhand for dual wielding. I just want to use it as a weapon.

I know RAW states it can be used as a improvised weapon but they were used as weapons in the past. (yes I know real history is not DnD)

I was thinking of consulting with my DM to make a shield a weapon that goes with the martial weapons list and do either d6 or d8 +Ability damage. Thrown is a possibility but only 20/40(60) range.
Usable with multiple attacks if the character has them.

EDIT: Maybe add in some way to don/doff it as a bonus action.

What I would like to know is how would you guys (DMs) rule on something like this.(prior to going to my DM.)

Thanks in advance.

[Angelalex242]

I'm working on a build that uses a shield in one hand and the other empty for grappling. Think Captain America.

My thought is thought a lifetime of study/practice he has learned to use his shield as an offensive weapon and still use it for defense as well.
I'm not trying to get cheesy with it as a light weapon or offhand for dual wielding. I just want to use it as a weapon.

I know RAW states it can be used as a improvised weapon but they were used as weapons in the past. (yes I know real history is not DnD)

I was thinking of consulting with my DM to make a shield a weapon that goes with the martial weapons list and do either d6 or d8 +Ability damage. Thrown is a possibility but only 20/40(60) range.
Usable with multiple attacks if the character has them.



What I would like to know is how would you guys (DMs) rule on something like this.(prior to going to my DM.)

Thanks in advance.

Cap's shield is a legendary magic item, if not a straight up artifact. You won't be able to easily duplicate what it does.

[CTurbo]

I'd say 1d6+str bludgeoning is reasonable with a range of 20/60ft. I'd allow that.

[OzDragon]

Cap's shield is a legendary magic item, if not a straight up artifact. You won't be able to easily duplicate what it does.

I agree but, I'm not asking for it to return or bounce.

[Elysiume]

If Pathfinder is on the table, there's a brawler archetype (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classOptions/brawler.html#shield-champion-archetype) that's centered around using a shield in combat. A throwing shield (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/armsAndArmor/weapons.html) is a 1d6x2 weapon with a range increment of 20', and could probably also be a quickdraw shield, which can be donned and doffed as a swift action as part of a move, or as a free action if you have Quick Draw.

If Pathfinder is off the table, maybe the above stuff will give you somewhere to start for 3.5 homebrew.

[Quoz]

By RAW, tavern brawler is the only way I know of to get proficiency with improvised weapons. A level of monk would get your unarmed strike to the same damage, and 3 would get Kensai which could arguably choose improvised weapon as a Kensai choice. But most monk abilities don't work with a shield, so far from optimal.

You could also just choose a race with a natural weapon like Lizardfolk or tabaxi but again limiting your options.

I would say best bet is a magic item or modified feat. A shield of bashing that deals 1d6 would probably be a common item. Add in a save or prone/knockback with limited charge for uncommon, and a +1 attack and AC for a rare.

For a feat, I would say replace any of the 3 bullets on the shield master feat with 'You may use your shield as a melee weapon. You gain proficiency with it, and it's damage die is 1d6.'

[OzDragon]

If Pathfinder is on the table, there's a brawler archetype (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classOptions/brawler.html#shield-champion-archetype) that's centered around using a shield in combat. A throwing shield (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/armsAndArmor/weapons.html) is a 1d6x2 weapon with a range increment of 20', and could probably also be a quickdraw shield, which can be donned and doffed as a swift action as part of a move, or as a free action if you have Quick Draw.

If Pathfinder is off the table, maybe the above stuff will give you somewhere to start for 3.5 homebrew.

Sorry this is for a 5e game.

[Elysiume]

Sorry this is for a 5e game.Whoops, thought I was in a different subforum and this was a 3.5 thread. My bad.

[OzDragon]

Whoops, thought I was in a different subforum and this was a 3.5 thread. My bad.

No worries, Do you have any thoughts on this in regards to a 5e setting?

[Quoxis]

Play a paladin with the tavern brawler feat, that does everything you want within RAW:
- proficiency with shield attacks (by RAW 1d4 damage, but with impro weaponry DMs are encouraged to decide on damage based on the situation, so d6 is in order)
- bonus action grappling (freeing your action up for attacks)
- damage potential via smites

You‘ll have to live with your shield not coming back when you throw it, unless you go eldritch knight and generously interpret the lvl 3 weapon bond feature.

[Citan]

I'm working on a build that uses a shield in one hand and the other empty for grappling. Think Captain America.

My thought is thought a lifetime of study/practice he has learned to use his shield as an offensive weapon and still use it for defense as well.
I'm not trying to get cheesy with it as a light weapon or offhand for dual wielding. I just want to use it as a weapon.

I know RAW states it can be used as a improvised weapon but they were used as weapons in the past. (yes I know real history is not DnD)

I was thinking of consulting with my DM to make a shield a weapon that goes with the martial weapons list and do either d6 or d8 +Ability damage. Thrown is a possibility but only 20/40(60) range.
Usable with multiple attacks if the character has them.

EDIT: Maybe add in some way to don/doff it as a bonus action.

What I would like to know is how would you guys (DMs) rule on something like this.(prior to going to my DM.)

Thanks in advance.
Hi!

Well, it depends on how "far" you want to go.
Just being able to use a shield as a true melee only weapon as far as "abilities that require a named weapon" go but with 1d4 damage would be a straight ok from me.

If you'd like a weapon that deals better damage, thrown, and can be donned on/off quickly while not being shoehorned in specific classes (like Paladin or Kensei Monk -which could improve its die naturally), I'd argue that you'd have to work for it more than fluffing it.

Either brewing a specific archetype for the class you'd like to go with, or make it a special kind of shield that only you know how to craft (which takes time and special materials) or make it a "step-leveled" background feature to push the "improved donning speed" and "throwable" later.
Throwable I would probably push just a bit, like 5th level because you are also throwing your own weapon which is kinda a big deal. XD Donning as a bonus action is the real thing that troubles me, but it also depends of what you really meant by that...

[Unoriginal]

Look the Lizardfolk entry in the MM. They have spiked shields that can be used for attacking.

[OzDragon]

Hi!

Well, it depends on how "far" you want to go.
Just being able to use a shield as a true melee only weapon as far as "abilities that require a named weapon" go but with 1d4 damage would be a straight ok from me.

If you'd like a weapon that deals better damage, thrown, and can be donned on/off quickly while not being shoehorned in specific classes (like Paladin or Kensei Monk -which could improve its die naturally), I'd argue that you'd have to work for it more than fluffing it.

Either brewing a specific archetype for the class you'd like to go with, or make it a special kind of shield that only you know how to craft (which takes time and special materials) or make it a "step-leveled" background feature to push the "improved donning speed" and "throwable" later.
Throwable I would probably push just a bit, like 5th level because you are also throwing your own weapon which is kinda a big deal. XD Donning as a bonus action is the real thing that troubles me, but it also depends of what you really meant by that...


Did you mean 1d6 damage or just leave it at the level of an improvised weapon?

This person has worked so long with a shield that donning and doffing is easy for them. Is it really a big deal that it would take less than an action?

Why do you think so if that's the case?

Not all shields in our history had arm straps.

[sophontteks]

No matter how hard and long they train, the shield alone is not simutaneously working as both a weapon and a shield. He can only as much as use it to create openings and take advantage of those openings by grappling or punching. The shield is a great tool for pushing one's weight and confidently delivering attacks without leaving yourself vulnerable. But i think giving a shield alone the stats of a shortsword is a little too much

Just consider this shield a weapon and compare it to other weapons. If its doing 1d6 its strictly a superior weapon then scimitars, shortswords, and daggers given equal training.

[OzDragon]

No matter how hard and long they train, the shield alone is not simutaneously working as both a weapon and a shield. He can only as much as use it to create openings and take advantage of those openings by grappling or punching. The shield is a great tool for pushing one's weight and confidently delivering attacks without leaving yourself vulnerable. But i think giving a shield alone the stats of a shortsword is a little too much.


But with the tavern brawler feat it is just that a weapon and a shield. Not quite what I was looking for though.

May I ask why? Its not finesse or light so no sneak attack. It more along the lines of a Mace which is in my mind a decent comparison.

[sophontteks]

But its not like a mace. Its superior.

Imagine if we reversed this and we were saying that the guy with a mace had trained really hard with it and thus can use it defensively, so his mace grants him +2 AC. Its not balanced.

Shields do not provide reach. As great as they are. If someone was armed with just a shield, they would be at a distinct disadvantage against anyone with a proper weapon. I mean you can do what you want, its just not a balanced change.

Here are some vids discussing dual wielding shields that I think would also help explain the shields use as a weapon.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=63s&v=9SuILDBy3A8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=161s&v=oBJSfzbh5HQ

[OzDragon]

Ok I will raise you this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRZ22UCnMNk&feature=kp%5DSpartan

This is how I envisioned using a shield as a weapon.

[sophontteks]

Spartan shields were in reality horrible as weapons, worse then normal shields. Those shields strap to the forearm so they have less reach then a punch. It'd be hard to even fully extend your arm with it. The phalanx is made to fight as a unit with each soldier protecting the other with a shield made to be fixed in place, not as a weapon. If a spartan did use their weapon like that, the entire purpose of the shield is lost. Theyve telegraphed a very heavy, slow attack and left their entire body vulnerable (no ac bonus).

What I'm saying is. These hypothetic videos are cool but not grounded in reality. If you had a shield like that and went against someone with a wooden training weapon, short of grappling them, they would be spanking you all day with their stick while easily remaining out of your reach.

In single combat the viking shield is much better. Its lighter and has a nice piece of metal to essentially punch with. Its made to be flicked around with ease, but even then its designed to be used in tandem with a weapon.

[OzDragon]

I was using the video of how I envisioned the shield to be used as a weapon more than the spartan style or shield itself.

[SirGraystone]

I think a shield make a poor main weapon but 1d6 bludgeoning damage seem balanced same as a mace. But in a round you can use your shield to attack or protect yourself but not both.

[ImproperJustice]

This looks like a job for a homebrew feat!!

Captain of the Shield
Requires Shield Proficiency

You treat you Shield as a weapon you are proficient with.
When you attack with your shield it retains it’s AC and defensive properties.
While wielding a shield as a weapon you may throw it offensively at range 20/60. If you have the extra attack feature you may bounce your shield from one target to another or back to you for each attack you posess beyond the first. This can be used to strike targets around corners or cover if you can see them.

I think this is one of thise moments where rule of cool should trump gritty reality, but each table is different :)

[Vogie]

The way I would do it is make the Shield a 1d4 Kensai Monk Weapon for Way of the Kensai, and give the player a light, adamantine shield (still +2) with the Thrown property (I'd say 20/40) that doesn't count as a shield for Unarmored Defense purposes.

As a kensai weapon, it can increase your AC while striking in melee, or you can use a bonus action to add another 1d4 damage to the shield when thrown. Also, as a monk, you'll have the ability to do serious damage with your bare hands after throwing it.

I would incorporate the ability to don or doff the shield as a bonus action into the existing Shield Mastery feat.

If they want the shield to return, picking up 3 levels in EK will let the player recall their shield with a bonus action.

[smcmike]

I hate to be negative, but if I were your DM, I would find your requests a bit unreasonable. A shield is really good for pushing people over (which is a much larger component of real hand-to-hand combat than the system generally accounts for), but it just is not as good at actually damaging people as striking weapons, and throwing one is pure fantasy.

In other words, I’d say that you should take Tavern Brawler and your 1d4 damage and be happy with it, at low levels. On the other hand, I would totally work with you to find that magic shield of your dreams in the course of the campaign, because that’s the real answer here. All of my above concerns drop away if you just use a magic shield.

[OzDragon]

I hate to be negative, but if I were your DM, I would find your requests a bit unreasonable. A shield is really good for pushing people over (which is a much larger component of real hand-to-hand combat than the system generally accounts for), but it just is not as good at actually damaging people as striking weapons, and throwing one is pure fantasy.

In other words, I’d say that you should take Tavern Brawler and your 1d4 damage and be happy with it, at low levels. On the other hand, I would totally work with you to find that magic shield of your dreams in the course of the campaign, because that’s the real answer here. All of my above concerns drop away if you just use a magic shield.

But, but, but we are playing a fantasy game here!

[Vogie]

I would find your requests a bit unreasonable. A shield is really good for pushing people over (which is a much larger component of real hand-to-hand combat than the system generally accounts for), but it just is not as good at actually damaging people as striking weapons, and throwing one is pure fantasy.

"Can't you all be more realistic and shoot fireballs from your hands like a normal person?" said the man, telepathically, using the ability given to him as part of a pact with a eldritch abomination, "or manifest an oversized floating hand to punch someone with? That's so much more believable than throwing a heavy object that's also Frisbee-shaped.

[smcmike]

But, but, but we are playing a fantasy game here!


"Can't you all be more realistic and shoot fireballs from your hands like a normal person?" said the man, telepathically, using the ability given to him as part of a pact with a eldritch abomination, "or manifest an oversized floating hand to punch someone with? That's so much more believable than throwing a heavy object that's also Frisbee-shaped.

Woah woah woah - I’m not trying to say that martials can’t have nice things! Just give the guy a magic shield! Enjoy the fantasy elements of your fantasy game!

(Also, you can go ahead and throw your shield using Tavern Brawler. This works 100% fine RAW).

[Sariel Vailo]

http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2015/12/shield-expert.html?m=1

[Vogie]

Woah woah woah - I’m not trying to say that martials can’t have nice things! Just give the guy a magic shield! Enjoy the fantasy elements of your fantasy game!

Why does it have to be magic? What, precisely, is magic about a being able to throw a slightly-heavier-than-normal serving tray? Is it the aerodynamics that are "magic"?

[smcmike]

Why does it have to be magic? What, precisely, is magic about a being able to throw a slightly-heavier-than-normal serving tray? Is it the aerodynamics that are "magic"?

Why should a slightly-heavier-than-normal serving tray be a more effective ranged (or melee) weapon than a baseball bat? Would you rather have someone attack you with a baseball bat or with a sheet of wood?

[WereRabbitz]

So would a +2 Magic Shield give you +2 AC or +2 to Attack? It can't do both that would be a little over powering I would think.

[ImproperJustice]

Why should a slightly-heavier-than-normal serving tray be a more effective ranged (or melee) weapon than a baseball bat? Would you rather have someone attack you with a baseball bat or with a sheet of wood?

I’d rather not be attacked at all :)

[Vogie]

Why should a slightly-heavier-than-normal serving tray be a more effective ranged (or melee) weapon than a baseball bat? Would you rather have someone attack you with a baseball bat or with a sheet of wood?

Who says anything about more effective? Effectiveness was never the requirement. A baseball bat would be akin to a club, or maybe a quarterstaff or mace (that may be a stretch). We were giving the shield the lowest damage die available, a static 1d4, and a thrown range shorter than any printed weapon other than the Yklwa and Net.

And If I was attacking and also being attacked, I'd go with the slightly-heavier-than-normal serving tray. Those college years of waiting tables make me proficient in it for both defensive and offensive purposes, and feeling like I'm in a Jackie Chan movie would be awesome.

[OzDragon]

So would a +2 Magic Shield give you +2 AC or +2 to Attack? It can't do both that would be a little over powering I would think.

I would say it would be written as either on or the other definitely NOT both.

Something like this would be +2 to attack and damage,

Serrated Shield: +2 magic shield (attack); The edge of this shield is jagged allowing it to also rend the flesh of it's target.

Although now that I read this again, it could be just a non magical shield that does d6 instead of d4.

[smcmike]

Who says anything about more effective? Effectiveness was never the requirement. A baseball bat would be akin to a club, or maybe a quarterstaff or mace (that may be a stretch). We were giving the shield the lowest damage die available, a static 1d4, and a thrown range shorter than any printed weapon other than the Yklwa and Net.

The original post involved a shield that is more effective than a club both at melee attacks (1d4 v. 1d6/1d8) and at range (higher damage dice, not at disadvantage even without Tavern Brawler):



I was thinking of consulting with my DM to make a shield a weapon that goes with the martial weapons list and do either d6 or d8 +Ability damage. Thrown is a possibility but only 20/40(60) range.




And If I was attacking and also being attacked, I'd go with the slightly-heavier-than-normal serving tray. Those college years of waiting tables make me proficient in it for both defensive and offensive purposes, and feeling like I'm in a Jackie Chan movie would be awesome.

Yes, if you are defending yourself, a shield is quite useful.

[OzDragon]

The original post involved a shield that is more effective than a club both at melee attacks (1d4 v. 1d6/1d8) and at range (higher damage dice, not at disadvantage even without Tavern Brawler):

Well to be honest every weapon is more effective than a club even the dagger which can be used with a sneak attack.

Also the damage and thrown is there to get opinions not that I expect any or all of this to be approved by anyone.

I'm still of the opinion that a shield makes a viable weapon but want further discussion as to what others think.

[strangebloke]

I would say, as long as you have one hand free and you aren't casting spells or grappling, I would allow you to get the shield as both AC and as a weapon, since it's fundamentally the same as holding a shield and a club.

Either take tavern brawler and use it as a club or roll up a common magic item called the 'shield of bashing' as other have said.

Spend all your gold on enchanting that shield. Go for throwing, adamantine, and possibly animated.

Grab the shield master feat.

[smcmike]

Well to be honest every weapon is more effective than a club even the dagger which can be used with a sneak attack.

Also the damage and thrown is there to get opinions not that I expect any or all of this to be approved by anyone.

I'm still of the opinion that a shield makes a viable weapon but want further discussion as to what others think.

Sure, I’m just giving my opinion.

And, yes, daggers are slightly more effective than clubs, if you are skilled at sneak attacks or want to throw them. That also makes sense to me. I would probably prefer to fight someone with a baseball bat than someone with a knife and experience shanking people (either way I lose, tbh).

[Samayu]

I don't like the idea of it granting an AC bonus if you're attacking with it. Picture a sword & board fighter. They block with the board while swinging the sword. What do you have to block with, while bashing with the board?

Me: "If you attack with the shield, you lose its AC bonus until the start of your next turn."

[MagneticKitty]

I'd do a fighting style.

Shield brawler
When holding a shield and no other weapons, you may use it to make a 1d6 + str bludgeoning attack. Additionally you may use one of your attacks (as part of a multiattack) to assume a defensive position giving you an additional +1 AC that lasts until the start of your next turn. When trained in this fighting style, your shield has a thow property with a 15/30 range.

A more defensive fighting style (at the cost of an attack) but not as much damage (as dual weilding or great weapon). In exchange for a little of both. Specializing is better, but I think it does what you need. Can apply to ranger, fighter, or paladin.

[strangebloke]

I figured it out.

Kensei.
Tavern brawler feat.
Wield an improvised club. (It's a shield)

You aren't wielding a shield, you're wielding an improvised club. But if you make one unarmed strike a round, you get +2 to AC anyway.