The Best* Level of Play

[NerdHut]

I was thinking about E6 and E8 earlier. They're both pretty good at letting each class type (Martial, Skill Monkey, Caster, etc) in the core rules hit their stride without completely overshadowing each other (at least in my opinion).

But in my mind, I think the space in between - Level 7 - may be best at it. And these are some of the reasons why I think so:

Classes with Full BAB have a second attack, and no one else does. 3/4 BAB still gets a good to-hit.
Full casters have just gained access to 4th-level spells.

Except for Sorcerer, which makes a point to cast more frequently instead.


Partial casters have started hitting their magical stride

The Bard has just reached 3rd-level spells
The Paladin and Ranger have their first spells by this point


Base saves have reached a point where (in my opinion) the good saves are good, the bad saves are still not great, but neither is underwhelming.
Hit Points at this point should have a good spread between the classes, without comedically large gaps (assuming no one has a ridiculous CON).
Skill ranks at this point max out at a nice, even 10 for class skills and 5 for non-class skills. It's also an appreciable difference without being a large gap.
The Barbarian has just gotten their Damage Reduction.
The Fighter has 4 more feats than anyone else, and at this level that still matters.
The Monk is starting to look "monk-y" and can now heal itself.
The Rogue is particularly good at sneaking, since magic hasn't gotten over-the-top yet, and can now deal 4d6 sneak attack damage.


Obviously, this is just my opinion, and it isn't even a deep dive. It also does little to take into account non-core classes.
Please, let me know what your thoughts are on when the sweet spot is for whenevery class gets to show off their thing and not get overshadowed. I know my opinion is going to differ from some of your own, so I'd like to hear about it.

[Cosi]

What do you mean by "best"? Most balanced? Most fun? Most diverse? There are (as you've outlined) advantages to 7th level. But there are also disadvantages. Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters don't get 4th level spells. People won't get much (if anything) from PrCs. No one has access to teleport or plane shift, which means you can't rely on stories where players use those. Character creation is complicated enough that you probably can't roll up a new character if one dies. If you don't want to do or don't care about having those things, then losing them is fine and 7th level might be right for you. But other people might want them, and might therefore be better suited to a different level range.

[ComaVision]

In my opinion, 4th level spells are a big jump in power for casters, and is when the disparity starts becoming readily apparent without much optimisation. I think the game has the best balance at level 6.

[Gullintanni]

I'm pretty solidly in favour of E6. I think 4th level spells are what really begin to launch the "Quadratic Wizard", but if I was going to include them in my low level game, I'd go E8. E7 means that access to 4th level spells only comes on-line for single classed casters, and that sorcerer's are stuck a spell level behind forever. I don't like either of those outcomes. One of the best things about 3.5 is how friendly it is to multi-classing, and E7 really makes that a rough proposition.

[Aetis]

I like E10 actually.

Levels 1-4, mundanes get the spotlight. Levels 5-6, casters and mundane are even. Levels 7-10, casters get the spotlight.

Then, we start over from level 1.

[heavyfuel]

In my opinion, 4th level spells are a big jump in power for casters, and is when the disparity starts becoming readily apparent without much optimisation. I think the game has the best balance at level 6.

Pretty much.

Lv 4 spells are when the really broken stuff comes into play. Polymorph, Divine Power, Lesser Planar Ally, and Black Tentacles. And that's just in core.

[NerdHut]

I'm noticing recurring concern over access to 4th level spells. I definitely get that.

For the sake of comparison, let's look at spells per day.
Let's assume at level 7, they have a 19 in their casting stat (Good rolls or point-buy, plus 1 at level 4), plus an item which boosts it by 2.
These casters would have a Casting Modifier of 5. Meaning their total spells per day are as follows:



Class

0

1st

2nd

3rd

4th



Sorcerer

6

8

7

5

-



Wizard (Non-specialist)

4

6

4

3

2



Wizard (Specialist)

4+1

6+1

4+1

3+1

2+1



Cleric

6

6+1

4+1

3+1

2+1



Druid

6

6

4

3

2




Honestly, I think a lot of it will depend on individual character choice. I think the Sorcerer can still be a good blaster. Spontaneous casting does provide a great advantage sometimes. I've played prepared casters before and it's incredibly frustrating when you feel like you prepared the wrong spells before delving into a cave.
But I admit see the strong potential for power disparity since the faster-progressing casters have access to as many as three 4th-level spells per day.

[Troacctid]

E8 has better equity between Sorcerers and Wizards. If you're going to use E7, I think you should adjust the spell progression of spontaneous casters accordingly.

[death390]

problem with E7 is the fact that only allowing a single set of classes to get 4th level spells (prepared casters) and not the other subset (Spontaneous) skews the classes power greatly. the fact that sorcs are a level behind is already bad enough for them, the idea that they arn't allowed to get the "availible" 4th level spells because they chose to be spontaneous is a **** move.

with E8 both sets of casters get their 4ths, but the gap between them is more the fact that wizards get access to any 4th, but sorcs only get 1 4th PERIOD (unless you allow extra spell to be = level) but at least they have access. even if you banned 4th level spells and just gave the slots for E7 to "Balance" it you run into the problem that prepared get a higher slot to put metamagic which is still a huge advantage if spontaneous don't.

this doesn't even cover that half casters don't get their 2nd level spells until 8 (paladin/ ranger/ ect) and bards get their +2 inspire at that point as well.

[heavyfuel]

E8 has one peculiarity though.

It allow for 3/4 BAB classes to get a second attack. While you might say it's a feature, I say it's a flaw.

With the exception of Warblade and Crusader and dips, I see no reason at all to pick a full BAB class in E8.

This can be fixed by adding really good capstone feats for these classes. And I do mean really good. Like, "Weapon Supremacy for Fighters" level of good

[Nifft]

E8 has one peculiarity though.

It allow for 3/4 BAB classes to get a second attack. While you might say it's a feature, I say it's a flaw.

With the exception of Warblade and Crusader and dips, I see no reason at all to pick a full BAB class in E8.

This can be fixed by adding really good capstone feats for these classes. And I do mean really good. Like, "Weapon Supremacy for Fighters" level of good
Or house-rule that you don't get iterative attacks at all, you just get one bonus attack per 4 levels of full-BAB classes, or 6 levels of 3/4 BAB classes. Taking 1/2 BAB classes never results in an extra attack, because clearly attacking with a weapon isn't their thing.

Changing iterative attacks isn't necessarily harder to balance than making up strong feats for BAB +8 characters.

[NerdHut]

E8 has one peculiarity though.

It allow for 3/4 BAB classes to get a second attack. While you might say it's a feature, I say it's a flaw.

That's part of what bugs me about E8. And it's difficult to reconcile. It doesn't feel right taking the second attack for 3/4 by DM fiat, and I'm not sure it's necessarily a good idea to give full BAB a free extra attack at that level.

That's a major factor in why I would prefer E6 or E7

[Elkad]

7 is a nice level. Yes, 4th level spells are on the table.
But I don't think that is a bad thing. Because that's when the full casters actually start to feel like casters, not a cheaper replacement for a longbow and some tanglefoot bags.
Yeah, you need to rein in Planar Binding, but you need to do that in normal games anyway.

The other stuff mentioned - like Polymorph and Divine Power - are fine, because they aren't sustainable.

7 also lets the Fighter do extra things. Like pick up a level of Rogue just for fun. At 6, he'd be forfeiting that extra attack.



E8 has better equity between Sorcerers and Wizards. If you're going to use E7, I think you should adjust the spell progression of spontaneous casters accordingly.

How about just the leading 0 for the odd levels, which is something many others have proposed as fixes.
So at 7, the sorc would have a single slot. At least until he got to 26 Cha.

[Eldariel]

Pretty sure Lesser Planar Binding is a level 5 spell.


Aaanyways, yeah, level 7 is okay if you fix spontaneous casters and give something like a Fighter (who gets stone-cold nothing on 7) some supergood capstone as Cosi said. E8 has the advantage of Fighter 8 granting Melee Weapon Mastery/Ranged Weapon Mastery and Greater Weapon Focus which in a system with eventually infinite feats are pretty good. E6 and E8 both work better natively though, but E6 is still the best far as balance is concerned. Only full BAB gets an extra attack (in E7, Rogue 4/Fighter 3 would have just as many attacks as Fighter 7), and both, spontaneous and preparing casters cap out at the same point (admittedly spontaneous casters suck far as top tier spell versatility is concerned but that's more a feature of spontaneous casters in general than a problem in the system proper). E7 offers none of those considerations so I'd say it's got less going for it. Prepared casters are 100 times better than spontaneous under E7 (they're already better, but you're really thumbing it in the sore spot by denying spontaneous casters level 4 spells) and full BAB has zero advantage over medium BAB 4/full BAB 3 (and Clerics have Divine Power so they don't care).

[Elkad]

Pretty sure Lesser Planar Binding is a level 5 spell.

Well, L4 for Nar Demonbinder, but 4th level spells is an entry requirement, and getting those early takes a fair amount of cheese.

[heavyfuel]

Pretty sure Lesser Planar Binding is a level 5 spell.

Yeah, I meant to say Lesser Planar Ally. Always get the two confused :smallsigh: