Precocious Apprentices with Scribe Scroll

[Segev]

If you're running 3.PF, you can use the 3.5e feat Precocious Apprentice to have a 2nd level spell at 1st character level, and you can then use the PF crafting rules to roll a DC 13 Spellcraft check to scribe a scroll of it despite not having the prerequisite caster level.

But what if you're just playing 3.5 or PF? In 3.5, scribing scrolls requires you meet all prereqs, including the CL. One might argue that the Precocious Apprentice has gained the ability to cast the spell as a CL 1 caster, which would mean a very inexpensive level 2 spell on a scroll. I'd appreciate discussion on this topic.

Assuming that argument doesn't work, is there a reasonable way to get CL 3, even just for that one spell, at first level?

If playing in PF, the Precocious Apprentice feat (to my knowledge) doesn't exist. Are there ways to get something similar, allowing a 1st level character access to at least one 2nd level spell, as an actual spell (not a specifically-chosen-for-you-by-the-template-or-whatever spell-like ability).

[death390]

i thought the per-requisite to craft a scroll or other magic item was the ability to cast the spell in question into the item. Precocious Apprentice allows you to do that with a spellcraft check.

"A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal. " well you are able to cast the spell at CL 1 with a spellcraft check so that works. the other thing is that NO WHERE is the minimum caster level been defined (that i have found or others in other posts when it has come up so far). best i have found/heard is you can cast the spell as long as you have the slot to feed the spell. if levels of spell had inherent minimum caster levels then fast progression classes like ur-priest and divine crusader would be screwed.


under creating scrolls "The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from her currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) " so there is the triggered spell slot wording, so it is basically cast into the scroll.

[emeraldstreak]

If you're running 3.PF, you can use the 3.5e feat Precocious Apprentice to have a 2nd level spell at 1st character level, and you can then use the PF crafting rules to roll a DC 13 Spellcraft check to scribe a scroll of it despite not having the prerequisite caster level.

But what if you're just playing 3.5 or PF? In 3.5, scribing scrolls requires you meet all prereqs, including the CL. One might argue that the Precocious Apprentice has gained the ability to cast the spell as a CL 1 caster, which would mean a very inexpensive level 2 spell on a scroll. I'd appreciate discussion on this topic.

Assuming that argument doesn't work, is there a reasonable way to get CL 3, even just for that one spell, at first level?

If playing in PF, the Precocious Apprentice feat (to my knowledge) doesn't exist. Are there ways to get something similar, allowing a 1st level character access to at least one 2nd level spell, as an actual spell (not a specifically-chosen-for-you-by-the-template-or-whatever spell-like ability).

For some spells it is possible to be CL 3.

[Karl Aegis]

The Scribe Scroll feat requires that you know the spell. Precocious Apprentice doesn't mention that you know the spell. I don't think it works at all.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Scribe Scroll feat requires that you know the spell. Precocious Apprentice doesn't mention that you know the spell. I don't think it works at all.

This amounts to an argument that the caster with precocious apprentice can cast a spell they do not know. This strikes me as too absurd to take seriously, regardless of whether there's a RAW argument to be made.

[Jowgen]

Thanks to the MIC, all crafting components can be taken from different sources, so one guy could have the feat, the other could cast the spell, and another could provide the caster level. More practically speaking, if one had a caster level from a racial SLA, you could use that for the item even if it doesn't apply to the casting of the spell.

[Segev]

Hm. I'd been contemplating this as something that, given enough gp, would allow the Precocious Apprentice to spend all of his 1000 gp-worth of crafting per day on making a bevy of scrolls of his 2nd level spell. (Whether at CL3 and thus making 6 of them (900 gp worth) or at CL 1 for a 2nd level spell and making 20 of them (50 gp each for 1000 gp).)

But if it actually expends the spell, that might mean you're limited to one per day. Still, not HORRIBLE. Especially if you're making a 50 gp scroll for 25 gp crafting cost with a CL1.

Getting the CL up with a racial SLA is interesting, though I am unsure that's feasible on an ECL 1 character (which is what I meant when I said "level one," sorry for not being explicit enough).

That is a nice catch on the fact that Precocious Apprentice essentially making your minimum CL for that spell to be 1, at least until you otherwise can cast 2nd level spells.

[Bakkan]

Just wanted to chime in and say that it's entirely possible to have a CL of 3 or even more. For fun, I once made a wizard who could cast a CL 7 scorching ray at level 1. If you have a specific spell in mind we can run through the various options.

[Segev]

Just wanted to chime in and say that it's entirely possible to have a CL of 3 or even more. For fun, I once made a wizard who could cast a CL 7 scorching ray at level 1. If you have a specific spell in mind we can run through the various options.

The specific spell I was thinking of when I went off on the "scribe a bunch of scrolls in one day - wait, can you actually do that?" tangent that spawned this thread was command undead, because I realized a while back that a necromancer who wants to be a minionmancer should invest heavily in that spell.

[Bakkan]

The specific spell I was thinking of when I went off on the "scribe a bunch of scrolls in one day - wait, can you actually do that?" tangent that spawned this thread was command undead, because I realized a while back that a necromancer who wants to be a minionmancer should invest heavily in that spell.

The simplest way I could find with 10 minutes of searching is the following: be an Illumian with the krau sigil (Races of Destiny), the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat (selecting command undead, also RoD), the Sickening Grasp feat (Complete Mage), and the Spellgifted (necromancy) trait (Unearthed Arcana).

EDIT: Either the trait or the race and feats above could be replaced with Spell Thematics (Player's Guide to Faerûn).

[Segev]

The simplest way I could find with 10 minutes of searching is the following: be an Illumian with the krau sigil (Races of Destiny), the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat (selecting command undead, also RoD), the Sickening Grasp feat (Complete Mage), and the Spellgifted (necromancy) trait (Unearthed Arcana).

Hm, that combination looks legal if you do it right. Though you probably could get away with Krau + Spellgifted alone. --or, wait, no, Krau alone won't help if you're trying to exceed your HD with your CL. That's why you need Improved Krau, to push command undead to a third level spell, qualifying you for Sickening Grasp.

That's two feats at first level, and you're not a human, so that's going to call for flaws. Wait, three feats; still need Precocious Apprentice to have command undead at all for the Improved Krau feat to push to a third level spell in order to qualify for Sickening Grasp.

It does seem to work, though.

[Rijan_Sai]

Hm. I'd been contemplating this as something that, given enough gp, would allow the Precocious Apprentice to spend all of his 1000 gp-worth of crafting per day on making a bevy of scrolls of his 2nd level spell. (Whether at CL3 and thus making 6 of them (900 gp worth) or at CL 1 for a 2nd level spell and making 20 of them (50 gp each for 1000 gp).)

Does that work in PF? I'm not familiar with the crafting rules there, (except, to a small extent, for the whole "no Exp for crafting" thing...)

I know that in 3.5, you are limited to 1 item at a time, regardless of cost. Any item that has a market price of 1c - 1000g would have a crafting time of 1 day; as well, if you start any other item during that time, the first one is lost and all components (gp/exp, etc.) are wasted.

[Bakkan]

Hm, that combination looks legal if you do it right. Though you probably could get away with Krau + Spellgifted alone. --or, wait, no, Krau alone won't help if you're trying to exceed your HD with your CL. That's why you need Improved Krau, to push command undead to a third level spell, qualifying you for Sickening Grasp.

That's two feats at first level, and you're not a human, so that's going to call for flaws. Wait, three feats; still need Precocious Apprentice to have command undead at all for the Improved Krau feat to push to a third level spell in order to qualify for Sickening Grasp.

It does seem to work, though.

Yeah, if flaws aren't available, Spell Thematics + Spellgifted on a human or Stongheart halfling is the way to go.

[Segev]

Does that work in PF? I'm not familiar with the crafting rules there, (except, to a small extent, for the whole "no Exp for crafting" thing...)

I know that in 3.5, you are limited to 1 item at a time, regardless of cost. Any item that has a market price of 1c - 1000g would have a crafting time of 1 day; as well, if you start any other item during that time, the first one is lost and all components (gp/exp, etc.) are wasted.

Looking it up...no. It says one spell per day in the PF item creation rules. Drat.

[death390]

don't forget you can make a scroll with multiple spells on it at a time, and by that logic multiple iterations. i know its not RAI but you could feasibly argue that the 1 casting of the spell finished multiple iterations if ascribed at the same time. because it just says that the spell is expended upon making the spell.

[Segev]

don't forget you can make a scroll with multiple spells on it at a time, and by that logic multiple iterations. i know its not RAI but you could feasibly argue that the 1 casting of the spell finished multiple iterations if ascribed at the same time. because it just says that the spell is expended upon making the spell.

Unfortunately, the RAW specifically state that, despite the fact you can have multiple spells on a single scroll, each spell is scribed separately and counts as a distinct item creation event, thus taking 1 day each. (If not more, for 5th level and higher spells, which generally will be over 1000 gp in market value.)