Optimising unarmed strike damage

[Belier]

How about, level 6 moon druid - wild shape into giant elfk for huge size and + 4 str mod and retaining abilities
Level 2 paladin - divine smite
Level 11 monk - extra attack + d8 die + flurry of blow
Level 1 barbarian +2 rage

Instead of choosing natural weapons, choosing to
Use unarmed strike

Unarmed strike = 1d8
Would huge size make it 3d8?

Meaning
With str + rage = 6
3d8 + 6 + 4d8 attack + smite
3d8 + 6 + 3d8 extra attack + smite
3d8 + 6 + 3d8 flurry + smite
3d8 + 6 + 3d8 flurry + smite

136.5 average

Is it possible or is the die of unarmed is still 1d8
For 100.5

I know it is from sage advice, any creature can chose to use unarmed strike to make a melee weapon attack instead of weapon or natural weapon.

[CTurbo]

Not sure exactly what you're asking, but unarmed strikes are 1+Str unless otherwise stated like the Monk, Tabaxi, Aaracokra, and Lizardfolk for example.

[PeteNutButter]

Notably there is no size scaling for damage dice in 5e, that we had in in 3.x.

A kick from a giant monster does the same as one from a halfling if you're a PC with similar monk levels.

As for the rest of the build, you are trying to kick things with a 42 hp creature at level 20... you'll be one-shot (twice if necessary) and then be stuck in "dude-form" with garbage stats since you needed to have 13+ in every stat but int (and con). If you want to combine rage and monk damage, just make a Tortle str based monk.

[Belier]

I am asking what is the highest damage you could achieve using unarmed strike as the mean of attacking.

[Belier]

Big monsters typically wield oversized weapons that deal extra dice of damage on a hit. Double the weapon dice if the creature is Large, triple the weapon dice if it's Huge, and quadruple the weapon dice if it's Gargantuan. For example, A Huge giant wielding an appropriately sized greataxe deals 3d12 slashing damage (plus its strength bonus), instead of the normal 1d12.

Page 284 in the DMG
So I was thinking, could this work on a 1d8 unarmed strike from a huge creature. Otherwise, what is the most optimised unarmed strike damage build is also what I am looking for. Just for the fun of knowledge.

[strangebloke]

Notably there is no size scaling for damage dice in 5e, that we had in in 3.x.

A kick from a giant monster does the same as one from a halfling if you're a PC with similar monk levels.

As for the rest of the build, you are trying to kick things with a 42 hp creature at level 20... you'll be one-shot (twice if necessary) and then be stuck in "dude-form" with garbage stats since you needed to have 13+ in every stat but int (and con). If you want to combine rage and monk damage, just make a Tortle str based monk.

There actually is. There are actually multiple rules.

IIRC:
"If an attack deals 1dx damage, and the monsters is y size categories larger than medium, your attack does ydx damage" AFB at the moment so don't quote me.

Also, in the text for enlarge/reduce: "Your enlarged weapons deal 1d4 more damage than normal."

Either way, it doesn't really work with martial arts. Martial Arts damage is something you can take instead of the weapon damage. Your 'base damage' for an unarmed strike is one. So if you multiply that for size, you get 3. Obviously, you then substitute martial arts damage, bringing it up to 1d8.

Now, you can hit for 4d8 using the giant elk's hooves, but that can't be combined with extra attack.

[CTurbo]

Monks do 1d10+Dex at high levels
Barbarians have the extra +2 to +4 on all unarmed strikes
Tavern Brawler feat makes unarmed strikes 1d4 instead of 1
Various Gauntlets and Brass knuckle weapons exist but I guess you would no longer be unarmed.


I had a Tavern Brawler Barbarian that did 1d4+8 damage with his unarmed strikes.

You could make a case that the Hunter Ranger's Colossus Slayer feature be used with unarmed strikes as well as some of the Cleric's Divine Strikes.

Note: Colossus Slayer, Divine Strike, and Divine Smite all require a "melee weapon attack" and it seems that the ruling of unarmed attacks being considered melee weapon attacks is not universally agreed upon.

[PeteNutButter]

There actually is. There are actually multiple rules.

IIRC:
"If an attack deals 1dx damage, and the monsters is y size categories larger than medium, your attack does ydx damage" AFB at the moment so don't quote me.

Also, in the text for enlarge/reduce: "Your enlarged weapons deal 1d4 more damage than normal."

Either way, it doesn't really work with martial arts. Martial Arts damage is something you can take instead of the weapon damage. Your 'base damage' for an unarmed strike is one. So if you multiply that for size, you get 3. Obviously, you then substitute martial arts damage, bringing it up to 1d8.

Now, you can hit for 4d8 using the giant elk's hooves, but that can't be combined with extra attack.

I was referring to the default size scaling that we had in previous editions. There is no such blanket rule in 5e.

Why can’t you use an animal’s attack with extra attack? I get you can’t flurry with it...



Note: Colossus Slayer, Divine Strike, and Divine Smite all require a "melee weapon attack" and it seems that the ruling of unarmed attacks being considered melee weapon attacks is not universally agreed upon.

Unarmed strikes as melee weapon attacks is in the official errata.

[strangebloke]

I was referring to the default size scaling that we had in previous editions. There is no such blanket rule in 5e.

Why can’t you use an animal’s attack with extra attack? I get you can’t flurry with it...

Maybe I'm all wet here, but...

Optimized Puncher Actions:
Dodge, Dash, Disengage, Ready, etc.
Attack

Giant Elk Actions:
Dodge, Dash, Disengage, Ready, etc.
Ram
Hooves
Attack

Optimized Puncher (who is an elk)
Dodge, Dash, Disengage, Ready, etc.
Attack
Ram
Hooves

"Attack" is distinct from the "Hooves" action. You can attack with the unarmed strike of the Elk, but I think that would only deal three. There aren't blanket rules, but we are using a monster statblock here, so it seems reasonable to use the guidance given regarding monster weapon size.

[Aett_Thorn]

Note: Colossus Slayer, Divine Strike, and Divine Smite all require a "melee weapon attack" and it seems that the ruling of unarmed attacks being considered melee weapon attacks is not universally agreed upon.

Unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks, but are not an attack with a melee weapon. Two similar sounding, but different, things in this edition.

[strangebloke]

You might be better off with a polar bear? They have two attacks, both of which deal better damage than your unarmed strike damage.

No 3d8 nonsense, but you do get

1d8+5
and
2d6+5

[PeteNutButter]

Maybe I'm all wet here, but...

Optimized Puncher Actions:
Dodge, Dash, Disengage, Ready, etc.
Attack

Giant Elk Actions:
Dodge, Dash, Disengage, Ready, etc.
Ram
Hooves
Attack

Optimized Puncher (who is an elk)
Dodge, Dash, Disengage, Ready, etc.
Attack
Ram
Hooves

"Attack" is distinct from the "Hooves" action. You can attack with the unarmed strike of the Elk, but I think that would only deal three. There aren't blanket rules, but we are using a monster statblock here, so it seems reasonable to use the guidance given regarding monster weapon size.

I can't say you are "wrong" because 5e is written so poorly, but I can say I disagree. Sage advice (for what its worth) agrees with me.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/05/can-a-paladindruid-in-a-wild-shape-extra-attack/

Ram is Melee weapon attack and IMO there is no reason you can't use extra attack with it.

EDIT: Per your interpretation monsters can't make opportunity attacks...

[Belier]

Tavern Brawler
PHB Errata Oct. 2016 - Unarmed Proficiency Redaction

Accustomed to rough-and-tumble fighting using whatever weapons happen to be at hand, you gain the following benefits:

Increase your Strength or Constitution score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You are proficient with improvised weapons.
Your unarmed strikes use a d4 for damage.
When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target. A grapple check is a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check.

Well according to tavern brawler the D4 with unarmed strike is not a choice, it is what you use now instead of 1.

Then if you get to huge size now, the rule would be 3d4 instead of d4.

It is different wording than martial arts so I think this is working.

You do not do 3 * 1 damage or replace with monk hit die like in tje case of martial arts

You do plain 3 * d4

[Belier]

I can't say you are "wrong" because 5e is written so poorly, but I can say I disagree. Sage advice (for what its worth) agrees with me.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/05/can-a-paladindruid-in-a-wild-shape-extra-attack/

Ram is Melee weapon attack and IMO there is no reason you can't use extra attack with it.

You can definitely take attack action and attack eith a natural weapon allowing extra attack.but it is not annunarmed strike. It is not applicable on the question

[strangebloke]

I can't say you are "wrong" because 5e is written so poorly, but I can say I disagree. Sage advice (for what its worth) agrees with me.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/05/can-a-paladindruid-in-a-wild-shape-extra-attack/

Ram is Melee weapon attack and IMO there is no reason you can't use extra attack with it.

Huh, fair enough. So using that ruling, this guy does 4d8 against a prone foe. Very nice!

[PeteNutButter]

You can definitely take attack action and attack eith a natural weapon allowing extra attack.but it is not annunarmed strike. It is not applicable on the question

You need to define your parameters better:

Are you trying to maximize unarmed strike damage or make a playable character that maximizes unarmed strike damage? Playable characters need to survive.

Single target or AoE? A ranger could whirlwind spin kick a cloud of gnats for instance.

Sustained damage or once per long rest burst? These are very different.


Huh, fair enough. So using that ruling, this guy does 4d8 against a prone foe. Very nice!

Not all that impressive considering it'd be at least 11th level before it could be done. A GWM fighter would be murdering said prone target. :smallyuk:

[Belier]

You need to define your parameters better:

Are you trying to maximize unarmed strike damage or make a playable character that maximizes unarmed strike damage? Playable characters need to survive.

Single target or AoE? A ranger could whirlwind spin kick a cloud of gnats for instance.

Sustained damage or once per long rest burst? These are very different.

The character does not to be playable on every aspect, just maximising the damage using unarmed strike. Do not look at survivability. Just come with the strongest unarmed strjng of blows that you can brew.

[PeteNutButter]

The character needs not to be playable

For single target/one round burst, try something like Paladin 3/Monk 5/gloomstalker 3/fighter 2/death cleric 7:

That should net you 3 uses of the death cleric's channel divinity for 19 damage each. Attack action for 3 attacks on round one from gloomstalker, action surge for 6, flurry to make it 8.

Each attack does 1d6+mod+smite. Five of the 8 attacks can manage a 5d8 smite with the last 3 getting a 4d8 smite. So assuming you managed to max dex somehow that's an average of 68 from the attacks alone with another 166.5 from smiting. In this perfect scenario you open with a Hunter's Mark on your target pre-combat so you have another 8d6 for 28 damage. Tack on the channel divinity smacks and you are looking at a total average damage of 319.5.

If you manage to get your dex over 20 or have insignia of the claw it'd be even higher, and those are assuming all hits and average damage. In an even more perfect scenario you'd have an ally cast haste on you right before the fight for another 2 attacks (gloomstalker trigger).

[strangebloke]

The character needs not to be playable

I'll try!

bugbear

Fighter 2 (action surge)
Paladin 2 (smite)
Assassin 3 (sneak attack, assassinate)
Gloom Stalker 3 (dread ambusher)
Kensei 5 (extra attack, flurry)
Sorcerer 5(Subtle metamagic, Spell slots.)

With multiclassing rules this gives you a net spellcaster level of 7. You have 1 level 4 slot, 3 level 3 slots, 3 level 2 slots, and 4 level 1 slots, as well as 4 sorcery points.

You'll be pretty low on ASI's, to say the least, especially with multiclassing restrictions. The good news is that because this is not intended to be playable, you can dump CON and INT and start with 16 DEX. Your two ASI's will give you 20 DEX which is all we care about.

So if you get the drop on him, a single punch looks like:
2d6 (unarmed damage) + 4d6(bugbear ambush ability) + 2d8(dread ambusher) + 10d8/8d8/6d8/4d8 (smite) + 5 (DEX)
6d6 + 12d8/10d8/8d8/6d8 + 5

You have this many punches:
(1(base) + 1(extra attack) + 1(dread ambusher))*2(action surge) + 1(haste) + 1 (dread ambusher) + 2 (flurry of blows) = 10

Total:
80(level 4 smite) + 71(level 3 smite) + 71(level 3 smite) + 71(level 3 smite, slot created w/ sorcery points) + 62(level 2 smite) + 62(level 2 smite) + 62(level 2 smite) + 62(level 2 smite, slot created with sorcery points) + 53(level 1 smite) + 53(level 1 smite)= 647

And I'm pretty sure you could go higher. Really, sadly, the monk levels aren't doing much for you. You're probably better off with sorcerer/paladin levels, to make sure you get to 5th level smites. If you don't think haste works with dread ambusher, (I'm not sure, really) you can use hunter's mark instead.

EDIT: derp, forgot that deft strike only applies to kensei attacks. Reworking.

All the usual silliness applies. I'm assuming that all attacks hit, but taking average rolled damage.

[CTurbo]

I'll try!

bugbear

Fighter 2 (action surge)
Paladin 2 (smite)
Assassin 3 (sneak attack, assassinate)
Gloom Stalker 3 (dread ambusher)
Kensei 6 (extra attack, flurry, deft strike)
Sorcerer 4(Subtle metamagic, Spell slots.)

With multiclassing rules this gives you a net spellcaster level of 6. You have 3 level 3 slots, 3 level 2 slots, and 4 level 1 slots, as well as 4 sorcery points. We're going to use everything.

You'll be pretty low on ASI's, to say the least, especially with multiclassing restrictions. The good news is that because this is not intended to be playable, you can dump CON and INT and start with 16 DEX. Your two ASI's will give you 20 DEX which is all we care about.

So if you get the drop on him, a single punch looks like:
2d6 (unarmed damage) + 4d6(bugbear ambush ability) + 2d6 (deft strike) + 2d6 (subtle hunter's mark) + 2d8(dread ambusher) + 8d8/6d8 (smite) + 5 (DEX)
10d6 + 10d8/8d8 + 5

You have this many punches:
(1(base) + 1(extra attack) + 1(dread ambusher))*2(action surge) + 2 (flurry of blows) = 8

first three attacks have level 3 smites, next 5 have level 2 smites (via font of magic). So:

85 + 85 + 85 + 76 + 76 + 76 + 76 + 76 = 635

And I'm pretty sure you could go higher. Really, sadly, the monk levels aren't doing much for you. You're probably better off with sorcerer/paladin levels, to make sure you get to 5th level smites. Also, hunter's mark is a worse use of concentration here than haste is, whether or not you think that haste gets an extra attack from dread ambusher, so sorcerer five at least is very desireable (so that you can know that spell)

EDIT: derp, forgot that deft strike only applies to kensei attacks. Reworking.

All the usual silliness applies. I'm assuming that all attacks hit, but taking average rolled damage.



Are you sneak attacking with unarmed strikes?

[strangebloke]

Are you sneak attacking with unarmed strikes?

I was but then I caught myself.

[Unoriginal]

Notably there is no size scaling for damage dice in 5e, that we had in in 3.x.

This is not true. A Large weapons has twice as many dice as the Medium equivalent, and a Huge one three times.

The rules are in the DMG, and Storm King's Thunder list a Giant's Unarmed Attack as 3d4+STR (apparently they're trained in unarmed combat).




As for the rest of the build, you are trying to kick things with a 42 hp creature at level 20... you'll be one-shot (twice if necessary) and then be stuck in "dude-form" with garbage stats since you needed to have 13+ in every stat but int (and con). If you want to combine rage and monk damage, just make a Tortle str based monk.

This is true, however.

[Belier]

For single target/one round burst, try something like Paladin 3/Monk 5/gloomstalker 3/fighter 2/death cleric 7:

That should net you 3 uses of the death cleric's channel divinity for 19 damage each. Attack action for 3 attacks on round one from gloomstalker, action surge for 6, flurry to make it 8.

Each attack does 1d6+mod+smite. Five of the 8 attacks can manage a 5d8 smite with the last 3 getting a 4d8 smite. So assuming you managed to max dex somehow that's an average of 68 from the attacks alone with another 166.5 from smiting. In this perfect scenario you open with a Hunter's Mark on your target pre-combat so you have another 8d6 for 28 damage. Tack on the channel divinity smacks and you are looking at a total average damage of 319.5.

If you manage to get your dex over 20 or have insignia of the claw it'd be even higher, and those are assuming all hits and average damage. In an even more perfect scenario you'd have an ally cast haste on you right before the fight for another 2 attacks (gloomstalker trigger).

All right you understood the thing. I'll check if it is legit tonight :)

[Belier]

For single target/one round burst, try something like Paladin 3/Monk 5/gloomstalker 3/fighter 2/death cleric 7:

That should net you 3 uses of the death cleric's channel divinity for 19 damage each. Attack action for 3 attacks on round one from gloomstalker, action surge for 6, flurry to make it 8.

Each attack does 1d6+mod+smite. Five of the 8 attacks can manage a 5d8 smite with the last 3 getting a 4d8 smite. So assuming you managed to max dex somehow that's an average of 68 from the attacks alone with another 166.5 from smiting. In this perfect scenario you open with a Hunter's Mark on your target pre-combat so you have another 8d6 for 28 damage. Tack on the channel divinity smacks and you are looking at a total average damage of 319.5.

If you manage to get your dex over 20 or have insignia of the claw it'd be even higher, and those are assuming all hits and average damage. In an even more perfect scenario you'd have an ally cast haste on you right before the fight for another 2 attacks (gloomstalker trigger).

This is legit without haste and hinter s mark.My only concern is with haste and gloom stalker, I ain't thinking the haste attack can thrigger it and hunter's mark kill the flurry of.blow on the first round. Any way good try I'll try to find more damage

[Belier]

New take on it, way of the bear paw
Taking feat tavern brawler to upgrade unarmed strike to a d4.
Do note that it is an upgrade and not a replacement like the monk martial arts wich means your size will double it for large or triple for huge. Monk martial arts would have to let you choose between doing 2 damage in bear form or take the monks die. Tavern brawler upgrade the 2 damage at 2d4 instead or you could use monks die as a replacement.

You cannot use the claw damage, you need to use the attack action with the choice unarmed strike which is why I call it way of the paw lol.

Take 2 level into moon druid for bear form.
Take 2 level into monk for flurry of blow
Take 3 level into fighter for battlemaster and action surge
Take 2 level into paladin for smites
Take 5 level into ranger for gloom stalker + 1 feat for martial adept
Take 6 level into death domain cleric for 2 divine favor that causes 17 necrotic damage when you hit. + 1 feat savage attacker

Human variant tavern brawler

This makes it a 12 level spell caster, with 6 x 5d8 smite and 3 other 4d8 smite

Each hit while wildshaped is 2d4 + 4

Battle master gives 5 d8 extra die for damage

Gloom stalker dread ambusher gives 1 extra attack +1d8 on the first turn for each attack action
With action surge you get another trigger of gloom and +1d8

It is 8 hit total in the first round
(Attack, dread ambusher, extra attack)
Action surge
Attack, dread ambusher, extra attack)
Flurry of blow bonus action

2d4 + 4 average is 5 +4 = 9.
8x9 = 72 damage average from the fists
You get 5d8 smite on the first 6 hit
You get 4d8 smite on last 2 hits
171 damage average feom divine smite
Battle master expanded 1d8 hit die gives 5 x 4.5 average = 22.5
Death cleric touch of death add twice 17 damage = 34 damage
Gloom stalker add 2d8 = 9 average.

Total = 308.5 damage

I am not counting hunters mark as on the first turn it consumes flurry of blow and I am in bear form at the start