Making a Sword Bard, want build feedback.

[z3rO1]

Hello Giantitp! I recently suddenly got to play a 5e game, and I made a Sword bard build to play that I want some feedback on.

A bit of background - I played a lot of Pathfinder before, but then some guy appeared and said "I wanna DM 5e, who wants to play?!", so why not try some new things? But I'm still inexperienced in 5e, and it differs greatly from Pathfinder, so I want to know if stuff I'm doing works.

I will be using the default ability scores. The idea looks like this -

Variant Human Race, I'll get - 12, 10, 14, (13) 14, 8, (15) 16. Pre-race ability scores are in ().

I'll pick Polearm Master as my Variant Human Feat. I'll pick Athletics as my extra skill.

1st - Hexblade 1, we get Cha to hit and damage, and some other fun things.
2nd - Sword Bard, we get Performance.
3rd - Sword Bard, we get Jack of All Trades, Song of Rest.
4th - Sword Bard, we get Sword Bard stuff!
5th - Sword Bard, I'll pick ASI into Cha, getting it to 18. (Resilient (Con/Wis)?)
6th - Sword Bard, Font of Inspiration!

I'll pick Performance, Perception and Acrobatics as my skills.
I'll pick a Quarterstaff, Entertainer's Pack and some other musical instrument as my stuff.

As my spells, I want to get:
Warlock
0th - Green Flame Blade, Thunderclap.
1st - Shield, Hex (Wrathful Smite?).
Bard:
0th - True Strike, Prestidigitation, Mending, Light.
1st - Faerie Fire, Heroism, Cure Wounds, Indetify.
2nd - Heat Metal, Enchance Ability, Invisibility.
3rd - Dispell Magic, Leomund's Tiny Hut.

The idea is to use a Quarterstaff, Dueling Style and Polearm Master to impersonate a Bayblade in combat (Warlock dip is to stop the MADness). And do bard stuff out of combat.

How does this look? What should I change, if anything? Thanks everyone in advance.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I think it's a waste to take a 12 in Str if you're doing a Hexblade dip. I'd switch the 12 and the 10 so you have a positive Dex modifier. I'd also consider going to 2 in Hexblade for two of +Cha to eldritch blast damage, at-will mage armor, 120' superior darkvision, or a useful utility spell like disguise self at will.

Of the two, I'd take Resilient (Con) over Resilient (Wis), but I'd also consider War Caster. Having bonuses to concentration checks is very important for melee bards as most of their good spells are concentration-based.

Oh, true strike is terrible. Pick a different cantrip. Minor image, maybe, and I get a lot of use out of message and friends.

[Kenny Snoggins]

I think your warlock cantrip selection is poor. Greenflame Blade is Okay, but I don't know how it would work with polearm master. Can you count the GFB attack as triggering the bonus action attack? And missing out on Eldritch blast is essentially skipping a class feature. Unless there are some serious RP reasons behind it, it's almost never a good idea.

Hex and Shield are definitely the two that you want if you are only going 1 level in Warlock. Like the above poster, I recommend a 2nd level, although I think in this build it's less of no-brainer than normal. I think you would be better off taking a Half-Elf to get better attack stats and unlock Elvish Accuracy so you can stack your Blade Bard maneuvers with Hex and get some pretty high riders for your crits. I get that would gimp you out of polearm master, but I don't really feel that's doing a lot for your build right now.

For the bard spells, Heroism and Cure Wounds are both sub optimal if you are going for power. You want healing word, definitely, and identify is also pretty low-utility. I'd say Faerie Fire, Diss Whisp, And Healing Word are mandatory. Enhance ability is OK, but I find detect thoughts much more powerful for your level 2. Invisibility is OK but generally I find it doesn't work well since you travel in groups most of the time, not individually, and there are better methods of both infiltration and getting combat advantage in most parties than a very resource inefficient invisibility spell.

[z3rO1]

I'd also consider going to 2 in Hexblade for two of +Cha to eldritch blast damage, at-will mage armor, 120' superior darkvision, or a useful utility spell like disguise self at will.

I'm not planning to use Eldritch Blast in combat. I don't like it. Is this a big mistake?
How does 2nd dip give me at-will mage armour? I'm not sure it is better than Medium Armor prof. I already have.


Of the two, I'd take Resilient (Con) over Resilient (Wis), but I'd also consider War Caster. Having bonuses to concentration checks is very important for melee bards as most of their good spells are concentration-based.

War Caster is, Indeed, interesting, but I would prefer not to take a lot of feats, because in this edition saves are handeled with stats instead, and that means getting Finger of Death'd or Dominated is really easy. But because of Concentration checks COn sounds better, indeed. Sadly you can't get Resilient twice, right?


Oh, true strike is terrible. Pick a different cantrip. Minor image, maybe, and I get a lot of use out of message and friends.

Mirror Image is too GM dependant, so probably friends. But are you sure? True Strike is very usefull to beat a disadventage, and since 5e operates only with Advantage\Disadvantage system, it should come in handy.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'm not planning to use Eldritch Blast in combat. I don't like it. Is this a big mistake?
How does 2nd dip give me at-will mage armour? I'm not sure it is better than Medium Armor prof. I already have.



War Caster is, Indeed, interesting, but I would prefer not to take a lot of feats, because in this edition saves are handeled with stats instead, and that means getting Finger of Death'd or Dominated is really easy. But because of Concentration checks COn sounds better, indeed. Sadly you can't get Resilient twice, right?



Mirror Image is too GM dependant, so probably friends. But are you sure? True Strike is very usefull to beat a disadventage, and since 5e operates only with Advantage\Disadvantage system, it should come in handy.

Agonizing eldritch blast is basically the best ranged attack option in 5E. You don't need to use it, but if you're not I'd drop Warlock from the build entirely and focus on high strength. One of the invocations for Warlock is at-will mage armor, and your first invocations come online at level 2.

True strike basically boils down to skipping a turn of actions for a +3 bonus. Sure, it cancels disadvantage, but you could just attack twice instead. That way if you roll well both times you get two hits instead of just the one.

[z3rO1]

I think your warlock cantrip selection is poor. Greenflame Blade is Okay, but I don't know how it would work with polearm master. Can you count the GFB attack as triggering the bonus action attack? And missing out on Eldritch blast is essentially skipping a class feature. Unless there are some serious RP reasons behind it, it's almost never a good idea.

Greenflame Blade was picked because, in hrde contecst, it is better than pounring fullrounds into you opponent. Am I wrong on this? Also I just don't like EB, but everyone seem to say that it is awesome, so fine I guess? What would you suggest as my 2nd Warlock Cantrip then?


I think you would be better off taking a Half-Elf to get better attack stats and unlock Elvish Accuracy so you can stack your Blade Bard maneuvers with Hex and get some pretty high riders for your crits. I get that would gimp you out of polearm master, but I don't really feel that's doing a lot for your build right now.

Isn't Hex is just enother rider effect? I don't think it would gimp Polearm Master. It would apply on both attacks, would it?
Also, doesn't Elvish Accuracy require you to have some good way to get Advantage first? I don't have a sure way to get it, sadly. And Elven Accuracy doesn't use your bonus action, but I think you know it.


For the bard spells, Heroism and Cure Wounds are both sub optimal if you are going for power. You want healing word, definitely, and identify is also pretty low-utility. I'd say Faerie Fire, Diss Whisp, And Healing Word are mandatory. Enhance ability is OK, but I find detect thoughts much more powerful for your level 2. Invisibility is OK but generally I find it doesn't work well since you travel in groups most of the time, not individually, and there are better methods of both infiltration and getting combat advantage in most parties than a very resource inefficient invisibility spell.

Heroism isn't good? Isn't it just a "fast healing Chamod" for a fight? That sounds kind of good for a squishy bard. Am I wrong?
Dissonant Whispers seem weak. Why are they a good choice? 3d6 damage that allow a save isn't that good, and they dodge stuff when they run away.

Point taken on Invisibility and Healing Word. But isn't Detect Thoughts a bit Gm dependant on the "what creature thinks about" part? Although it seems very good to detect invisible and stealthy creatures.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Greenflame Blade was picked because, in hrde contecst, it is better than pounring fullrounds into you opponent. Am I wrong on this? Also I just don't like EB, but everyone seem to say that it is awesome, so fine I guess? What would you suggest as my 2nd Warlock Cantrip then?



Isn't Hex is just enother rider effect? I don't think it would gimp Polearm Master. It would apply on both attacks, would it?
Also, doesn't Elvish Accuracy require you to have some good way to get Advantage first? I don't have a sure way to get it, sadly. And Elven Accuracy doesn't use your bonus action, but I think you know it.



Heroism isn't good? Isn't it just a "fast healing Chamod" for a fight? That sounds kind of good for a squishy bard. Am I wrong?
Dissonant Whispers seem weak. Why are they a good choice? 3d6 damage that allow a save isn't that good, and they dodge stuff when they run away.

Point taken on Invisibility and Healing Word. But isn't Detect Thoughts a bit Gm dependant on the "what creature thinks about" part? Although it seems very good to detect invisible and stealthy creatures.

Heroism is strong at first but does get weaker as you go. Dissonant whispers is strong because any forced movement is strong, especially if you can engineer things so they have to leave threatened areas or pass through hazardous terrain. In my game last weekend, dissonant whispers was getting kills on things that were forced to move through spike growth.

[z3rO1]

Dissonant whispers is strong because any forced movement is strong, especially if you can engineer things so they have to leave threatened areas or pass through hazardous terrain. In my game last weekend, dissonant whispers was getting kills on things that were forced to move through spike growth.

But the rules on Dissonant whispers directly state


Vou whisper a discordam melody that only one creature of your choice within range can hear, wracking it with terrible pain. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 3d6 psychic damage and must immediately use its reaction, if available, to move as far as its speed allows away from you. The creature doesn't move into obviously dangerous ground, such as a fire or a pit. On a successful save, the
target takes half as much damage and doesn't have to move away. A deafened creature automatically succeeds on the save.

So it couldn't do that.


Agonizing eldritch blast is basically the best ranged attack option in 5E. You don't need to use it, but if you're not I'd drop Warlock from the build entirely and focus on high strength.

The idea of the dip is to reduce the MAD of the Bard, because if we go strength we will need high Str to hit, High Con to not die, Wis not to get Dominated and Cha to Bard. Hexblade removes that and that is awesome! So I wouldn't drop Warlock, not by a longshot.

And 2nd level dip is really hard to take because Font of Inspiration is a very good ability, and we are Sword Bard - we live and die by our Flourishes, aren't we? They are very good both as defence and offence. Besides that Mage Armour doesn't seem that usefull because of Medium Armor. On the other hand, combo of Devil's Sight and Darkness sounds nice. Maybe after level 6 Bard?


Heroism is strong at first but does get weaker as you go.

Basically, the thought was that Heroism is, with 1 minute duration, e.g. 10 rounds, is 50 extra HP with +5 mod. Is that bad for a 1st level spell? Or is it because it comes in too slow?

[Kenny Snoggins]

Greenflame blade is Ok, although I like toll the dead better, so that if you take eldritch blast, you have both rolled and saving through attack cantrips. I think it's generally good to have one of each, but that's more preference than anything. If the greenflame blade cantrip can actually trigger the bonus action attack then it will work well, I just don't know if RAW it does.

I was referring to how if you took a half elf and elvish accuracy, you wouldn't be able to take polearm master right away, or for quite a while, actually. Hex does in fact proc on both regular attacks and the bonus action attack (I think the wording is anytime you do damage) so it works well with polearm master and greatly strengthens the feat. For your build it's probably better to go V. Human because although bardlocks can become perpetual advantage machines (darkness + devils sight, usually) it requires a lot more level investment than I think you want to go with. Which makes sense. And to really get the most out of the bardlock advantage you'd have to go 3 levels in warlock and get certain magic items by hook or by crook. Or have a shadow sorcerer in the party. Neither are guaranteed.

Diss Whisp is great if you have martials. It's not just 3D6-- it's 3D6, plus any opportunity attacks (generally I save the spell until there are 3+ op. attacks possible) from your frontline on the creature, which adds up to very heavy damage for a level 1 spell. Plus, it's a great 'get off me' spell for bards to get you out of a jam if you're cornered.

Detect thoughts is pretty explicit in what the spell does. So is suggestion, another 2nd level spell, but the text on that makes it seem so powerful that GMs like to house-rule nerf it without admitting that's what they are doing. I've not had that issue with detect thoughts.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

But the rules on Dissonant whispers directly state
So it couldn't do that.

It can if that's where it starts.


The idea of the dip is to reduce the MAD of the Bard, because if we go strength we will need high Str to hit, High Con to not die, Wis not to get Dominated and Cha to Bard. Hexblade removes that and that is awesome! So I wouldn't drop Warlock, not by a longshot.


Wis isn't that important. I wouldn't dump it, but it should be about your 4th priority in stat allocation. As a Sword Bard, you're making a conscious choice to give up some casting and barding potency for additional fighting power. I'm not saying drop Warlock; I'm saying that if the only thing you're going to get out of it is a level 1 spell and +Cha to hit and damage, you're going to be better off with an extra Bard level and focusing on spells that don't rely on save DCs. As a Sword Bard you're going to be buffing yourself and others more than casting stuff that relies on hitting saving throws anyway. You can get away with a 10 or 12 in Cha if you need to.

[z3rO1]

Greenflame blade is Ok, although I like toll the dead better, so that if you take eldritch blast, you have both rolled and saving through attack cantrips.

Point taken, will pick EB and Toll of the Dead then. I really like Toll, 1d12 is really nice.


Detect thoughts is pretty explicit in what the spell does. So is suggestion, another 2nd level spell, but the text on that makes it seem so powerful that GMs like to house-rule nerf it without admitting that's what they are doing. I've not had that issue with detect thoughts.

Okay then, hopefully it works the same for me! At the very least it will be a good Detect Stealth Bolloks in case it doesn't.


It can if that's where it starts.

Hm, yea, then it does. Still requires a bit specific circumstances. Hm.


Wis isn't that important. I wouldn't dump it, but it should be about your 4th priority in stat allocation.

But aren't Wis saves are basically the Will saves of this edition? Those are almost as, if not more, important than HP. Mostly because those feature the most SoD effects.


As a Sword Bard you're going to be buffing yourself and others more than casting stuff that relies on hitting saving throws anyway. You can get away with a 10 or 12 in Cha if you need to.

That is true, but aren't Sword Bards are kind of reliant on Flourishes? They give them a lot of extra damage and AC. For a squishy Bard that is very good, using those a lot will be good too. Am I wrong?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

But aren't Wis saves are basically the Will saves of this edition? Those are almost as, if not more, important than HP. Mostly because those feature the most SoD effects.

That is true, but aren't Sword Bards are kind of reliant on Flourishes? They give them a lot of extra damage and AC. For a squishy Bard that is very good, using those a lot will be good too. Am I wrong?

A lot of the outright SoDs are gone, and while Wis saves are certainly important you get half your proficiency bonus to them with Jack of All Trades. Having AC and Initiative is more important. If I were going to do Warlock, I'd prioritize as Cha > Dex > Con > Wis > Int/Str. If I were going to drop the Warlock off the build, I'd go with Str > Dex > Con > Cha > Wis > Int. Prioritizing Wisdom just costs too much IMO especially if you're not taking a race that has a bonus to either Wis or your primary combat stat, whether that's Cha or Str.

Even with a 20 in Cha you get five per day until you get high enough for them to recharge on a short rest.

If you're going to take eldritch blast there's no point in taking toll the dead also. Yeah, it's a Wis save, but your offensive Bard spells will already primarily target Wis saves and the damage is insignificantly higher. You're better off taking a utility cantrip as your second Warlock option. Chill touch, frostbite or create bonfire could be good also. If you want a cantrip that targets Wis saves I'd rather have vicious mockery to impose disadvantage. Thunderclap would give you an AE if you wanted it though it's small and targets Con.

[Kenny Snoggins]

A lot of the outright SoDs are gone, and while Wis saves are certainly important you get half your proficiency bonus to them with Jack of All Trades.

Jack of All Trades only applies to ability checks, not saving throws.

[z3rO1]

A lot of the outright SoDs are gone, and while Wis saves are certainly important you get half your proficiency bonus to them with Jack of All Trades.

Isn't that wrong? The PHB states


The three main rolls of the game—the ability check, the saving throw, and the attack roll—rely on the six ability scores.

And that, in turn, means that Ability Checks and Saving Throws are different things. You only get Jack of all trades on Ability checks, and Saving Throw isn't an Ability check. Am I wrong?


Having AC and Initiative is more important. If I were going to do Warlock, I'd prioritize as Cha > Dex > Con > Wis > Int/Str. If I were going to drop the Warlock off the build, I'd go with Str > Dex > Con > Cha > Wis > Int.

Okay, I understand the Inititative. But that is all we technically get from Dex, aren't we? Medium Armor gives a lot of AC, Shield gives a lot of AC and Flourishes give a lot of AC. Do we really want extra 2 from Dex? I can use a simple shield too, since Quarterstaff is a one-handed weapon.

Also, Jack of All Trades actually applies to initiative, I think.


Even with a 20 in Cha you get five per day until you get high enough for them to recharge on a short rest.

But we don't get them on a short rest unless we are level 5, getting by with little Flourishes till 6 will be hard, won't it?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Isn't that wrong? The PHB states

And that, in turn, means that Ability Checks and Saving Throws are different things. You only get Jack of all trades on Ability checks, and Saving Throw isn't an Ability check. Am I wrong?

No, you're right and I'm misremembering. I don't think it changes the point - Initiative and AC are more important. Flourishes can give you AC, but they're a limited resource. Having 14 Dex gets you to the magic number for maximum benefit in medium armor. JoAT does apply to initiative, but you can't have too much of it. And if you are going to stick with the Warlock dip, then Str doesn't really do anything for you outside some ability checks.

[sophontteks]

Dissanate whipsers says the creature must move up to its speed away, but the second part is a direct exception. If it said "It will try to avoid dangerous terrain." It'd be different, but it says that a creature straight up will not move into dangerous terrain. As far as whispers is concerned, dangerous terrain is as good as a wall. If a creature is surrounded by difficult terrain, it will not move.
But, even then, dissonate whispers is still one of the best level one combat spells.

True strike is really bad. Maybe minor illusion or mage hand?

With your charisma your better off picking some charisma skills. Drop athletics. I agree that strength is a bit of a waste. You'll want more AC from dex.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Dissanate whipsers says the creature must move up to its speed away, but the second part is a direct exception. If it said "It will try to avoid dangerous terrain." It'd be different, but it says that a creature straight up will not move into dangerous terrain. As far as whispers is concerned, dangerous terrain is as good as a wall. If a creature is surrounded by difficult terrain, it will not move.
But, even then, dissonate whispers is still one of the best level one combat spells.

Your DM's rulings may differ, of course, but I don't think this is a correct interpretation. If the creature is already in dangerous terrain, it's a bit strange to say that it'll stay there. If a thing is in a square of lava surrounded by squares of lava, it's totally reasonable to assume it will use its movement to get out of the lava.

[z3rO1]

True strike is really bad. Maybe minor illusion or mage hand?

Is it bad enough that I even need to overcome my allergy to DM-dependant things?


I don't think it changes the point - Initiative and AC are more important. Flourishes can give you AC, but they're a limited resource. Having 14 Dex gets you to the magic number for maximum benefit in medium armor.

With your charisma your better off picking some charisma skills. Drop athletics. I agree that strength is a bit of a waste. You'll want more AC from dex.

Okay, I kind of get getting more Dex for AC. We, after all, live in a world where bonded accuracy exists. So +1 AC is worth an absolute ridiculiton.
But I really never bought the inititative part, even considering I played a lot of earlier editions.

Like, we are not a Ragelancepounce Barb or an Archer, or a Control/SoD spellcaster. Those, if they go first, win. We, if we go first...Go first. It is fun, yes, but I kind of think its highly overrated in that regard.

I also really-really like stregth and, well, in 5e Atletics seem important. I like strength because it allows me to do one of the most, maybe, important aspects of DnD - carry stuff! All of the stuff! After all, magic items are an optional rule in DnD and Bag of Holding may not appear ever.

Also, as far as I understand, Athletics skill is like Endurance feat, Swim\Jump skills baked into one. These are all kind of important not to be countered by 10-feet chasm. Also if we have bad Athletics DM is just allowed to say something along the lines "sorry, the BBGE ran away because you are bad at athletics and can't run anymore". I exagerated this a bit, but still, it covers so much just in 1 skill. Am I wrong in this?

But anyway, how does this, updated build, look then?


Variant Human Race, I'll get - 10, 12, 14, (13) 14, 8, (15) 16. Pre-race ability scores are in ().

I'll pick Polearm Master as my Variant Human Feat. I'll pick Athletics as my extra skill.

1st - Hexblade 1, we get Cha to hit and damage, and some other fun things.
2nd - Sword Bard, we get Performance.
3rd - Sword Bard, we get Jack of All Trades, Song of Rest.
4th - Sword Bard, we get Sword Bard stuff!
5th - Sword Bard, Resilient Con
6th - Sword Bard, Font of Inspiration!

I'll pick Performance, Perception and Acrobatics as my skills.
I'll pick a Quarterstaff, Entertainer's Pack and some other musical instrument as my stuff.

As my spells, I want to get:
Warlock
0th - Eldritch Blast, Frostbite.
1st - Shield, Hex. (Also I found out that Armor of Agathys is here, it looks dope af. Maybe it?)
Bard:
0th - True Strike, Prestidigitation, Mending, Light.
1st - Faerie Fire, Heroism, Healing Word, Dissonant Whisper (Bane maybe?).
2nd - Heat Metal, Enchance Ability, Detect Thoughts.
3rd - Dispell Magic, Leomund's Tiny Hut.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Is it bad enough that I even need to overcome my allergy to DM-dependant things?

It's almost always worse than not casting it.



But I really never bought the inititative part, even considering I played a lot of earlier editions.


If you're buffing your allies or debuffing your enemies you actually get more out of initiative; you're trying to go before your allies, not just your enemies, because you don't want their first turn of actions to be spent acting without your buffs. If you intend to spend your actions buffing yourself only, then that's obviously less important.

Yeah, athletics is important, but I don't think it's important enough to prioritize strength. You'll be fine just being proficient in it, I think.

[z3rO1]

If you're buffing your allies or debuffing your enemies you actually get more out of initiative; you're trying to go before your allies, not just your enemies, because you don't want their first turn of actions to be spent acting without your buffs. If you intend to spend your actions buffing yourself only, then that's obviously less important.

Huh. So Inititative is kind of overrated for me then. Works.


Yeah, athletics is important, but I don't think it's important enough to prioritize strength. You'll be fine just being proficient in it, I think.

Well, its not only athletics, it is more a combo of carrying stuff is good, and Athletics are semi-important. But I get ya.

[sophontteks]

Your DM's rulings may differ, of course, but I don't think this is a correct interpretation. If the creature is already in dangerous terrain, it's a bit strange to say that it'll stay there. If a thing is in a square of lava surrounded by squares of lava, it's totally reasonable to assume it will use its movement to get out of the lava.
If its already in dangerous terrain, its not moving into dangerous terrain. But if its surrounded by lava, it will not enter the lava, just as it wouldn't go through a wall. The wording doesn't leave much to the imagination.
"The creature doesn’t move into obviously dangerous ground"

Athletics is a catch all for many things, but so is acrobatics, slight of hand, perception, insight, investigation etc. The skills in this edition have broader effects overall. You don't want to be too focused on hypothetic combat situations just to realize no one in your party even took persuasion and insight.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Huh. So Inititative is kind of overrated for me then. Works.


It's not overrated - going before the enemies is always better than the alternative. It's just not as necessary.

[Ganymede]

Excellent job, you have chosen all legal choices!

[Matrix_Walker]

I'll pick Polearm Master as my Variant Human Feat. I'll pick Athletics as my extra skill.

1st - Hexblade 1, we get Cha to hit and damage, and some other fun things.
2nd - Sword Bard, we get Performance.


Hex Warrior does not work with any weapon Polearm Master works with, unless you take it to level 3 and choose Pact of the Blade.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Hex Warrior does not work with any weapon Polearm Master works with, unless you take it to level 3 and choose Pact of the Blade.

The quarterstaff is on the Polearm Master list, and lacks the Two-Handed property, making it eligible for Hex Warrior.

[Matrix_Walker]

My bad, I misremembered it as One-handed weapons rather than 'lacking the two handed' property.

[z3rO1]

Excellent job, you have chosen all legal choices!

Thanks!
Anything you would change\add to this build, maybe?


It's not overrated - going before the enemies is always better than the alternative. It's just not as necessary.

Well, yea, you can put it that way. I just feel more strongly about it, I guess.


Athletics is a catch all for many things, but so is acrobatics, slight of hand, perception, insight, investigation etc. The skills in this edition have broader effects overall. You don't want to be too focused on hypothetic combat situations just to realize no one in your party even took persuasion and insight.

Well, persuasion and insight aren't that usefull, after all - they might not allow Wisdom saves, but on the other hand, it allows for your GM to decide if it takes effect and ow good the effect is. Like everyone says - skills ain't mind control.

I was more focusing on what do I pick to compensate for not having fly in this edition as a Bard (or not noticing it), movement skills seemed like a good idea. And maybe also skills that can do stuff to help the party in other regards.

The only alternative skill that will be 100% usefull would be Medicine, because you might end up in a party without a cleric, and I hope it at least allows you stuff it allowed you to do in 3.5\PF. But I'm kind of out of ways to get more skills, sadly :(

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

The only alternative skill that will be 100% usefull would be Medicine, because you might end up in a party without a cleric, and I hope it at least allows you stuff it allowed you to do in 3.5\PF. But I'm kind of out of ways to get more skills, sadly :(

Have you looked at backgrounds yet?

[JeffreyGator]

Is it bad enough that I even need to overcome my allergy to DM-dependant things?


You probably want to overcome this anyway. :)

But True Strike is really that bad. I like Vicious Mockery better and it is so thematic for a bard and your allies will be glad you forced disadvantage.


A couple of added thoughts for you having played a hexblade/bard.

GreenFlameBlade is really nice for a couple of things.
Main Attack when you get the extra (not a bonus action) automatic damage
Main attack when you don't have multi-attack
Opportunity Attacks if you have WarCaster

More AC is better if you are going to be in combat. I was in half-plate with a rapier and a shield and had 14 dex and still used shield a fair amount.

I found carrying capacity to be overrated - but had other people to carry stuff and my armor was mithril.

You should have 2 background skills, 3 class skills and a skill from variant human right?
You also get two languages/tools/instruments.

You get two extra instruments starting as a bard and taking hexblade @2

Perception and performance are good.
At least one talking skill since bards are likely to be the party talker. persuasion, deception, intimidation
I like acrobatics more than athletics but also had my poor bard fall jumping over a pit since the athletics/str was too low and my table still mocks me for it two years later.

Stealth is a fine choice for someone in medium armor.

I'm less keen on medicine since you will have healing word.

2 levels of the warlock dip also gives an extra spell per short rest.

[sophontteks]

Thanks!
Anything you would change\add to this build, maybe?



Well, yea, you can put it that way. I just feel more strongly about it, I guess.



Well, persuasion and insight aren't that usefull, after all - they might not allow Wisdom saves, but on the other hand, it allows for your GM to decide if it takes effect and ow good the effect is. Like everyone says - skills ain't mind control.

I was more focusing on what do I pick to compensate for not having fly in this edition as a Bard (or not noticing it), movement skills seemed like a good idea. And maybe also skills that can do stuff to help the party in other regards.

The only alternative skill that will be 100% usefull would be Medicine, because you might end up in a party without a cleric, and I hope it at least allows you stuff it allowed you to do in 3.5\PF. But I'm kind of out of ways to get more skills, sadly :(
Insight and persuasion not useful?
Insight allows you to tell if someone is lying, if they are being in-genuine, what their intentions are, if they are withholding information, what their mood is, what their motivations are. You can read people like a book with this skill.

And persuasion is the bread and butter of smooth social interactions. High enough persuasion can allow some truly ridiculous things. Sky is the limit and the only ones who know that limit are bards.

High insight and persuasion can win games on its own.
No one can lie to you, you know everyone's intentions, and you can convince just about anyone to do just about anything.
Combine this with the bards heavy focus on illusions and enchantments and you have yourself a walking god.

Here's a cool guide on social skills: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490505-The-Social-God-A-guide-to-an-optimized-party-face
When a character can roll 30's on persuasion checks. It is mind control.

For athletics, I can just get help from another party member for the most part. Enhance ability if I really need it.

[z3rO1]

Have you looked at backgrounds yet?

You should have 2 background skills, 3 class skills and a skill from variant human right?
You also get two languages/tools/instruments.

Backgrounds?...Aren't those are, like, pregen characters of sorts?...

Ohhhh, so those are like Traits, but also being, like, Feat size and you get only one. Nice!

Entertainer for Acrobatics and Performance sound good! Also cool constume, some useless fluff item and an instrument...If I even need one. Or two.

So I have two extra skill slots now! Medicine and Persuation, I guess?


I'm less keen on medicine since you will have healing word.

Can't Medicine be used for stuff, like, providing treatments for poisons, diseases and similar stuff? Or create some, uh...medicines is the word, I think. Since we don't have any craft skill? Althought it lists only making stabilisation checks in PHB, so I guess no. Aw :(


Insight and persuasion not useful?
Insight allows you to tell if someone is lying, if they are being in-genuine, what their intentions are, if they are withholding information, what their mood is, what their motivations are. You can read people like a book with this skill.

And persuasion is the bread and butter of smooth social interactions. High enough persuasion can allow some truly ridiculous things. Sky is the limit and the only ones who know that limit are bards.

High insight and persuasion can win games on its own.
No one can lie to you, you know everyone's intentions, and you can convince just about anyone to do just about anything.

Insight allows you to tell if someone is lying IF your DM wants you to notice the lie.
High enough persuasion can allow some truly ridiculous things IF your DM is okay with allowing ridiculous things.

Considering the "Insight isn't mind reading; Persuasion isn't mind control" mantra around 5e, and sometimes DnD in general, I wouldn't bank on it happening.

Getting some extra gold for a quest maybe?


More AC is better if you are going to be in combat. I was in half-plate with a rapier and a shield and had 14 dex and still used shield a fair amount.

I found carrying capacity to be overrated - but had other people to carry stuff and my armor was mithril.


mithril

Yea, I'm fully expecting magic items like this to not be a thing for a long time.
Choices are too hard, I want to carry a lot and not get hit, send help >.<

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Backgrounds?...Aren't those are, like, pregen characters of sorts?...

Ohhhh, so those are like Traits, but also being, like, Feat size and you get only one. Nice!

Entertainer for Acrobatics and Performance sound good! Also cool constume, some useless fluff item and an instrument...If I even need one. Or two.

So I have two extra skill slots now! Medicine and Persuation, I guess?

Sailor is pretty good too. In addition to Athletics and Perception (both of which you will want to have), you get proficiency with navigator's tools (probably meh?) and water vehicles, which can be very useful in some adventures.

[sophontteks]

If the DM is intentionally nerfing skills, then don't pick them, but thats not how they are supposed to work. Insight does as advertised. The DM decides the difficulty with 30 for 'nearly impossible' feats of skill. Most DMs have a difficulty chart to help them determine the DC for the skill check. For social skills the npcs attitude also weighs into the DC, so charming someone allows one to make better persuasion checks.

Convincing the king to strip naked is a nearly impossible persuasion check, for example.

The DM shouldn't be denying you your ability to use your skills because they feel like it.

[z3rO1]

Sailor is pretty good too. In addition to Athletics and Perception (both of which you will want to have), you get proficiency with navigator's tools (probably meh?) and water vehicles, which can be very useful in some adventures.

If some water stuff will be involved, I'll look into it!


If the DM is intentionally nerfing skills, then don't pick them, but thats not how they are supposed to work. Insight does as advertised. The DM decides the difficulty with 30 for 'nearly impossible' feats of skill. Most DMs have a difficulty chart to help them determine the DC for the skill check. For social skills the npcs attitude also weighs into the DC, so charming someone allows one to make better persuasion checks.

Convincing the king to strip naked is a nearly impossible persuasion check, for example.

I mean, I kind of understand that. Persuading the king to strip isn't the type of thing you should force your dm through if you are running even a half-serious campain. And that is what high persuasion leads to - silliness, at times to extreme degree. Insight slightly less so.

Besides that I'm bad at reading situations as a person, so persuation isn't that of a good skill to me. Wouldn't stop me from trying if I wanted to, but still.

[MrStabby]

Just on the whole spike growth thing - I am on the fence on that.

Dissonant whispers doesn't stop you moving into dangerous terrain, it stops you moving into OBVIOUSLY dangerous terrain. I would argue that dangerous terrain that requires a saving throw to detect is notobviously dangerous.

I think I would err towards the middle ground - they will flee through dangerous terrain but only if they also fail to detect it. I think I would rule this even if they kind of know what is there, perils of blind panic and all.

[sophontteks]

If some water stuff will be involved, I'll look into it!



I mean, I kind of understand that. Persuading the king to strip isn't the type of thing you should force your dm through if you are running even a half-serious campain. And that is what high persuasion leads to - silliness, at times to extreme degree. Insight slightly less so.

Besides that I'm bad at reading situations as a person, so persuation isn't that of a good skill to me. Wouldn't stop me from trying if I wanted to, but still.
Its an extreme, for sure. There is a high level spell that allows one to take a 15 on social checks. By that point the player could be rolling minimums of 35 on skill checks, and is appropriately godly in conversation. He would still of course have to phrase the conversation appropriately, and this can be done without hurting the roleplay experience. Ridiculous things like this do happen in reality quite often.

There is a Byzantine dynasty founded by a Greek wrestler who seduced the emperor, slept with the emperors wife, married his sister, and afterwards killed the emperor and became emperor himself. Thats actual history. Simply getting the king naked pales in comparison.

Skills in 5e are much stronger overall and spells took a hit in exchange. Like charm person isn't an I win to social encounters anymore. For the most part someone actually has to be a good talker to handle social encounters.

My own character is a Glamour bard heavily specced into social encounters and the pay off so far has been great. All information is mine. I can end encounters on my own if the party doesn't disrupt talks (which they frequently do, the murderhobos). And the campaign is still early. I haven't even gotten started.

I'm bad at reading situations too. But I have expertise in insight. I just ask about the persons emotions/Intentions and I roll for it. I can pretty much know everything about them just by reading their expressions. From there I can use what my character knows to persuade them.