[3.5] Does Heironeous offer the time domain?

[BTimelesS]

Good day everybody :)

I'm struggling with a player on my game that wants to worship Heironeous and insists that he read somewhere that he offers the time domain. I've researched as much as I could see where he could have seen that. I 've searched the books that are available to me (Complete Divine, PHB, Spell Compendium where is the only reference of the time domain I've found, Complete Champion.) but I cannot find the list of deities that offer the time domain. I saw in the wiki that Amaunator and Labelas Enoreth are the deities listed for this domain. He insists because he wants to have the war, time and sun domain (he 's playing an ordained champion).


So two questions,first, does anyone know if Heironeous actually offers the time domain?

And secondly, do you think if i should just find a backdoor to allow it since he wants it so bad? I feel like Heironeous being the god of valor doesn't have to do anything with the time domain, but I could be wrong.

Thank you in advance ;)

[Khedrac]

The other commonly used source for Greyhawk deities is the Living Greyhawk campaign, and in version 2 of the deities document it lists for Heironeuous: Courage, Glory, Good, Inquisition, Law, Nobility and War.

Greyhawk deities listed with the Time domain are: Cyndor, Katay, Labelas Enoreth and Lendor.

[Telonius]

Wizards Glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_Timedomain&alpha=) offers these deities: Grumbar, Labelas Enoreth. (I believe they're from Faerun). Cyndor and Chronepsis are also listed in various locations as having the Time domain. Not finding any reference to Heironeous as a time god.

[Venger]

You are correct, Heironeous doesn't offer the time domain.

That said, clerics can revere concepts and just pick whatever domains they want, which is easier for both players and gms. if he has to revere heironeous for a prestige class or something, he can burn a feat on heretic of the faith and change a domain to the time domain if you don't want to allow that option.

[Gullintanni]

I believe it's also legal to worship a full pantheon. In so doing, one can select domains possessed by any of the gods within the pantheon.

[Thurbane]

Agreeing with the other replies: as per this source (http://ftm3.altervista.org/ASMoNM/domains.html), Heironeous does not offer the time domain.

The Heretic of the Faith feat (PoF) allows you to pick a domain not offered by your deity.

[Nifft]

Good day everybody :)

I'm struggling with a player on my game that wants to worship Heironeous and insists that he read somewhere that he offers the time domain. I've researched as much as I could see where he could have seen that. I 've searched the books that are available to me (Complete Divine, PHB, Spell Compendium where is the only reference of the time domain I've found, Complete Champion.) but I cannot find the list of deities that offer the time domain. I saw in the wiki that Amaunator and Labelas Enoreth are the deities listed for this domain. He insists because he wants to have the war, time and sun domain (he 's playing an ordained champion). It's somewhat disruptive to give Heironeous new domains which are unrelated to his portfolio.

However, in your favor: it's 100% intended that you use published prestige classes as toolkits for your game -- you're supposed to adapt them to fit your game's needs, rather than twisting your campaign to squeeze through some PrC's keyhole.

So my suggestion would be that you "write" a new class for whatever deity you find (or create) which is basically Ordained Champion, except pointed at that deity instead of the dysfunctional brothers H&H.



So two questions,first, does anyone know if Heironeous actually offers the time domain? He does not. He also doesn't offer Sun, so far as I can tell -- just Good, Law, and War per the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.

SKR's expanded list gives him a few more, all of which seem reasonable: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/we/greyhawkdeities.html



And secondly, do you think if i should just find a backdoor to allow it since he wants it so bad? I feel like Heironeous being the god of valor doesn't have to do anything with the time domain, but I could be wrong. You are absolutely correct.

But there might be a god out there which has Time + Sun + War, so hook that PC up with the appropriate god (or write one) and re-fluff the Ordained Champion to suit your game's needs.


Joramy is the goddess of volcanoes and war, for example. Volcanoes are awesome, so being a Pyroclastic Champion of Joramy would presumably be awesome, and much like the sun volcanoes are strongly associated with fire.

Xan Yae is the god of psionics + trickery + war, which are at least moderately awesome.

[Thurbane]

SKR's expanded list gives him a few more, all of which seem reasonable: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/we/greyhawkdeities.html

Thanks, I wasn't aware of this resource before. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

Some of his suggested domains seem a little...off.

Wastri gets the Orc domain? Wastri, god of bigotry, whose worshippers only include humans and amphibian races only. Why on Oerth would he offer the Orc domain?

[Nifft]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of this resource before. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

Some of his suggested domains seem a little...off.

Wastri gets the Orc domain? Wastri, god of bigotry, whose worshippers only include humans and amphibian races only. Why on Oerth would he offer the Orc domain?

Note: when I said "all of which seem reasonable", I meant the two additional Heironeous domains.

I take no responsibility nor offer any explanation for Wastri. :cool:

[Troacctid]

He does not. He also doesn't offer Sun, so far as I can tell -- just Good, Law, and War per the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
He also has Courage, Destiny, Glory, Inquisition, Nobility, Pride, Temperance, Wrath, and Zeal. (Sources: Complete Divine, Races of Destiny, Living Greyhawk Official Listing of Deities v2.0, and Dragon Magazine #323 and #355.)


But there might be a god out there which has Time + Sun + War
There is not. But to be fair, even deities with "Time" literally listed in their portfolio often lack the Time domain.

[BowStreetRunner]

...he can burn a feat on heretic of the faith and change a domain to the time domain if you don't want to allow that option.
There is a discussion of this very idea here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?235927-Heretic-Cleric). If the player goes that route, it might be worth a read.

[Nifft]

He also has Courage, Destiny, Glory, Inquisition, Nobility, Pride, Temperance, Wrath, and Zeal. (Sources: Complete Divine, Races of Destiny, Living Greyhawk Official Listing of Deities v2.0, and Dragon Magazine #323 and #355.)

Thanks for digging.

So like I was saying: there's no access to Sun, and no access to Time.

That means this PC would not benefit from the Heretic of the Faith feat, because that only allows you access to ONE divergent Domain, and this guy needs two non-canonical Domains.


The god your PC wants is very clearly not Heironeous.

[Telonius]

Trying to look up any deities that have two of those three (Sun, War, Time). Here's what I have.

Dol Arrah (Sun and War, Sovereign Host in Eberron)
Tonatiuh (Sun and War, Aztec deity, DR 358)
Re-Horakhty (Sun and War, Pharonic deity, Deities and Demigods / Sandstorm)

Unfortunately none of the Sovereign Host, Aztec, or Pharonic deities grant the Time domain.

As far as I can tell, no deity with the Time domain has either Sun or War. So, if you're going strict RAW, and don't want to spend a feat on Heretic, the best bet would be to worship the Elvish pantheon as a whole, get the Time domain from Labelas Enoreth, Sun from Elebrin Liothiel, and War from Corellon Larethian, Shevarash, or Vandria Gilmadrith.

As for a houserule, I could absolutely see adding Time to any Sun deity. (One day is a unit of time, and defined by the sun). I'd probably go with Re-Horakhty as the one whose concept would fit most closely.

[Thurbane]

But there might be a god out there which has Time + Sun + War...

Amaunator comes close, but not all three (Law, Nobility, Planning, Sun, Time).

I was going to suggest finding a deity with Time & War, then dipping into Knight of the Raven for the Sun domain, but I can't find a deity that offers those two in combination.

[BTimelesS]

Thank you all of you guys for the replies :)

The sources really helped me to dig a little further in the cleric rules, I ended up having to house rule a little bit for my solution. I could have written a deity but I feared of being ill prepared as I 've never done it before and I would have to know more about how that could actually influence the game. So I told him that he could have for the first two domains the domains of sun and war. But he would have limited access to the sun domain as it's not a Heironeous domain, but it still is a domain of Perlor (with whom Heironeous is on good terms). I house ruled that the limited access would mean that he would not have access to the odd number domain spells (i.e 1,3,5,7,9) and he agreed with that, I 'm just hoping I didn't nerf his powers too much.. He also has to protect Perlor's interests in the world should he face such challenges (like protecting a temple, or helping other Perlor's cleric).

Thank you again for your advices and please if you 're interested tell me what you thing of my house rulling :)