How Do You Handle Minionmancy?

[KOLE]

So I’m simultaneously looking at DMing my first campaign, where one of the players expresses interest in a shepherd druid, and, in a separate campaign, running a druid who uses Conjure Animals a lot. My DM HATES minionmancy in all forms. One of our players has desperately wanted to play a Necromancer for years and he refuses. Since I may find myself in the DM seat soon, and may very well have to convince my DM to let me use a crucial spell to my build, what have you, as players or DMs, done to manage the bookkeeping aspect of minionmancy?

[Spacehamster]

Sadly it will always slow down gameplay, we have used just one roll for the initiative of all minions to reduce rolls. Best way is to somehow get fewer but stronger minions to reduce it further, not sure how possible this is in 5e tho.

[nickl_2000]

My DMs rules

When you get a summon spell you get to choose 1 set of beasts for the level of summons. So for Conjure Animals at level 5 you get

One beast of challenge rating 2 or lower
Two beasts of challenge rating 1 or lower
Four beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower
Eight beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower

At level 5 I chose from the sets in order
1x Rhino
2x Dire Wolf
4x Warhorse
8x Velociraptor

Then each time you level you get another set of animals to choose from. So level 6 I chose 4x Apes, and Level 7 I chose 8x Giant Owls.

So, I am responsible for keep track of the stats for these critters and having them ready at all time. When I summon, I choose from one of the groups I have made (no mixing and matching, you get all of them from that choice). This way it keeps it all sane, but also give me choices.



When you get other summon spells, you do the same thing when you initially level and when you gain levels after that. As for playing, I represent each critter on the grid with a die and the number facing up. So, I can easily keep track of which summoned critter is being hit as they are represented by the number on the field. I also have other players roll for me in combat. I call out the number representing to summoned critter, the other player rolls both the attack and damage die at the same time, I do the math for the total to see if it hits. Generally it isn't to bad, but when you summon 8 Velociraptors who each get 2 attacks and do it at advantage due to pack tactics it can be cumbersome.

[hymer]

I put a lot of weight on players of minionmancer PCs. They have to keep track of all the game stats and not mess up much. They have to know and understand the rules governing their various minions. I also don't want any great wait during their turn when they have minions out. They need to get right to resolving their actions with barely a moment's hesitation.
If the player can't manage this, then they should not play a minionmancer. We can't have four or five other people repeatedly sit around and waiting impatiently for their turn, while the minionmancer player dithers.

[Lord8Ball]

As a player, I usually give control over some of my minions to an ally. The fear that most DMs or players have is that a player with a lot of minions would bog down the game with lots of rolls;however, if you split that responsibility among the players not only would it allow the game to run more smoothly it allows the others to take part and not get bored waiting for their turns. It opens up strategies that would not be possible otherwise such as flanking maneuvers or whatever else you can think of. Your allies would still have to use a bonus action to control their share of minions but it is fun, interactive and makes bookkeeping a breeze.

[Aett_Thorn]

My DM in the past has basically said that if I summon 4 or more creatures, that I basically split them into two groups with their own initiative. That way I'm not tracking 8 different wolves, let's say, and instead I'll track two groups of 4 wolves for their attack and damage and movement stuff. If I just have one or two creatures, nothing changes. It tends to make things go faster, and I don't have 8 different wolves going after 8 different goblins and having to roll for each one in turn.

[JoeJ]

I put a lot of weight on players of minionmancer PCs. They have to keep track of all the game stats and not mess up much. They have to know and understand the rules governing their various minions. I also don't want any great wait during their turn when they have minions out. They need to get right to resolving their actions with barely a moment's hesitation.
If the player can't manage this, then they should not play a minionmancer. We can't have four or five other people repeatedly sit around and waiting for their turn, while the minionmancer player dithers.

Minions are a very good reason to enforce the rule (which I got from Angry GM) that you have to ready to go when it's your turn. If not, your action that turn is Dodge. And in the interest of avoiding player grumbling, it's probably a good idea to hold the DM to this rule as well; if the DM isn't ready to go, the monsters/NPCs Dodge. In one sense that's unfair because the DM so frequently has a lot of characters to run, but they also had time before the game to think about what they would do, and they're usually a whole lot less upset if one of their characters gets killed.

[Armored Walrus]

The only thing that bothers me about summoning spells is when they are sprung on me in session. I DM in roll20, and like to have tokens and character sheets for everything on the board. When someone pulls out a Conjure Animals that I wasn't aware their character had, then everything grinds to a halt while I look up stats, give them control of a character sheet, try to find a usable token on the fly, etc.

If I know in advance that it could happen, and have enough lead time to get those creatures into the journal, then I'm fine with it.

IMO, it doesn't inherently bog down play to an unreasonable level. That's entirely dependent on the player. I've seen champion fighters take longer to do their turns than the guy that had his character, a familiar, a simulacrum, and the simulacrum's familiar to move every turn.

I do like to keep all summons on the same initiative count, though.

[Beelzebubba]

1) Have all stats of a summons ready beforehand or you can’t cast it
2) Have enough d20’s to roll every attack in two rolls max (4 sets of d20 in four separate colors)
3) Monsters do average damage per attack, no rolling
4) Only monsters of one type per summons
5) In combat, oders have to be very simple, and summons act as a united group, so having them divide up to different tasks takes two rounds of actions
6) The task has to be obvious, so having them pick out the right people to attack in some combats is really tough unless - one example - they were summoned beforehand and given a chance to meet and smell the other party members. So, summoning a pack of wolves, the most powerful melee combatants in large packs, requires some planning, so it’s not an instant ‘win’ button
7) No dinosaur or giant versions until you see them - screw that cheese

[strangebloke]

1) Have all stats of a summons ready beforehand or you can’t cast it
2) Have enough d20’s to roll every attack in two rolls max (4 sets of d20 in four separate colors)
3) Monsters do average damage per attack, no rolling
4) Only monsters of one type per summons
5) In combat, oders have to be very simple, and summons act as a united group, so having them divide up to different tasks takes two rounds of actions
6) The task has to be obvious, so having them pick out the right people to attack in some combats is really tough unless - one example - they were summoned beforehand and given a chance to meet and smell the other party members. So, summoning a pack of wolves, the most powerful melee combatants in large packs, requires some planning, so it’s not an instant ‘win’ button
7) No dinosaur or giant versions until you see them - screw that cheese

These are really solid.

Addendum:
8) If you're going to have encounters with lots of minions, you need to use a grid. Keeping track of who-is-next-to-who is completely onerous otherwise.
9) In the case of a pitched battle, don't roll d20s at all. Just calculate the average hit rate and deduct hit points each round accordingly. "Average damage is 6, hit chance is 60%, so that's 4 damage per skeleton. Three skeletons attacked this guard, so he takes 18 damage and dies."
10)embrace the spreadsheet, or have some other means of tracking HP. Make the necromancy track undead HP.

Also, with respect to out of combat problems posed by undead, remember Grod's Law: Don't fix something overpowered by making it annoying to use.

[sithlordnergal]

As a player, my DM and I came up with a few rules:

1) The minions all go on a single initiative. While it does make the minions stronger, it also prevents the turn order from being bogged down

2) I have the stats for my beasts, and I have to show those stats to the dm so he knows I am not BSing anything. All the paperwork and memorization is on me, pure and simple.

3) Have my actions ready before my turn.

4) DM tells me the target AC, and I make mass attack rolls. For example, if I summon 8 raptors, and have them all attack the same target, that target is getting hit by 16 attacks, all with advantage, due to the raptors having pack tactics and multiattack.

I roll 4d20 per raptor to deal with the advantage and multiattack, DM tells me my target AC, then I do the mental calculations myself. I then roll all the damage dice as a single roll, add it all up, and tell the DM how much the enemy took. I.E. if I hit 9 times, 4 with bite and 5 with claws, I'd just roll 4d6 and 5d4, and add the damage mods as necessary. If the enemy is resistant, we simply halve the max instead of trying to halve each dice.

I'll be using the same tactics when my party deals with minionmancy.

[kardar233]

Beelzebubba has some good suggestions for how to handle summons in the game. Coming from playing a Druid till 11 recently, here are my Druid-specific thoughts:

Most importantly: You decide what the Druid gets when they cast Conjure Animals! They can ask for a specific thing, but it’s up to you what they get. Without this limitation, the spell’s “8 creatures of CR 1/4” option is incredibly powerful and fight-ending in itself. Eight Giant Poisonous Snakes or Velociraptors can deliver immense damage, while eight Constrictor Snakes can lockdown a boss or a whole battlefield.

I would strongly suggest making some kind of house rule around the spell. What I would do is ban the CR 1/4 option entirely, because the number of actions it gives takes up a lot of game time and a lot of spotlight, letting the Druid overshadow the other characters, especially with the extra durability from Shepherd Circle. To give back some of the tactical flexibility, I’d let the player choose their animals, but they can only use the CR 2, CR 1 or CR 1/2 options. In regard to upcasting, I’d put a hard limit of four beasts on the spell, so upcasting it can be used to get four beasts of CR1 but can’t be used for eight beasts of CR 1/2.

[mephnick]

I don't allow anything past 4 things summoned and I tell players I'd really prefer they summon 1 or 2. I also tell players if they constantly have to figure out how their wolf works they get skipped.

Minionmancy is probably the most annoying mechanical thing a player can do in my experience as a DM and player, so I'm strict about it. I literally don't care if it ruins the spell for them.

*EDIT: I am very upfront about this. It isn't a surprise to the player.

[Sigreid]

My group uses FG and it does a lot of the heavy lifting for us. Before we had that, we just exercised patience.

[Joe dirt]

if u have access to a computer during the game u can use roll20 to manage things like to hits and damage and iniative

[Lockwolfe]

Minions share your initiative and don’t take any turns until the round after they are summoned. I heavily discourage summoning 8 of anything, and because I make my players do most of the work, they rarely want to.

[TheUser]

Math it out and apply DPR per minion based on +to hit vs AC as a percentage of damage (account for crits as a boost in dice damage by 1/20).

An example for skeletons is their standard +4 to hit for 1d6+6 (level 9 necromancer) means they deal an average 4.8 damage vs an AC 14 target. All you need to do is present a chart to the DM with average damage per minion based on AC and instead of slowing down the game rolling a gazillion dice they can apply an easy average damage per minion. Then a second and third column for advantage and disadvantage.


It falls to the minionmancy player to do the math and the work but it speeds up gameplay significantly and makes minionmancers far less tedious to play with.

[Tanarii]

The main thing I do is enforce the commands. Conjure animals has verbal commands at no action, but youre still limited by the length of a round, so a single not too complicted sentence. As long as the actions of the creatures follow that, the players can control them. But they wont be doing any fancy tactical manuevers or attacking different specific enemies.

I like the idea of splitting the attack rolls amongst other players. I may steal that abd suggest to a few players that like to use such spells that they consider doing that when they summon lots of creatures.

Edit: note that the PHB makes no mention that the animals are under the PC's control as if they are another PC. This is a common assumption of many players and DMs, but it's not required. A DM can require the player say their command (with a six second command for an entire round's speaking being generous) and control what the creatures do herself. It'd still be within RAW. I don't usually run it that way though.

[opaopajr]

Well, since I run Initiative closer to TSR D&D, where Declaration happens before Initiative Rolls, it's a great segment to lean pressure on people making decisions in a timely matter.

In fact, it's so good IME compared to typical 5e fixed initiative that I dumped 5e's rules on that altogether. When you don't know when you are going, suddenly it is not as important to micromanage every last fragment of an action from every single minion listening to your influence. Declarations before Initiative saved vastly more time, as did dropping down to a d10, allowing simultaneous turns to occur, and so on.

Best of luck to you and your GM in finding a way that works for you! :smallsmile:

[KnotaGuru]

Use the mob rules calculator from the DMG or found online:
http://slyflourish.com/mob_calculator.html

Players need to know the monster's AC and how the rules work. For example 8 velociraptors have multiattack, so they would be entered into the calculator as 16. They also have pact tactics. According to the PHB, advantage is the equivalent of +5. They normally have +4 attack roll, so they'd actually be +9. Damage amongst their 2 attacks (5 bite, 4 claw) would be averaged to 4.5.

So against an AC of 15, the pack of 8 velociraptors would deal 48 damage.

[Asmotherion]

I generally give limited control of the NPC minions to the Player who wants them.

Kinda like "you want a Minion? fine, but it's your responsibility to Role Play it". So if you want your Skeleton to be anything more than a backround decoration (unless I get to do something with them as a DM, and it suits my needs), you have to play the part yourself; I already have a lot of NPCs to handle on my own to carry your extra weight.

The same holds true for familiars, mounts, and other summons that are under your control. If something is not curently under NPC status, I give you limited control of the character, until/unless it becomes an NPC again. That becomes much less confusing.

I've seen interesting tropes and character developments this way. In any case, I don't believe I break anything if I let a Necromancer use his skeletons as his personal Servants as a show of mastery and comfort with the idea of death/the shadowfell, or an other Role Play Disobediance because deep down she is a good yet weak-willed girl trying to impress her vimpire crush.

[MrStabby]

I don't allow anything past 4 things summoned and I tell players I'd really prefer they summon 1 or 2. I also tell players if they constantly have to figure out how their wolf works they get skipped.

Minionmancy is probably the most annoying mechanical thing a player can do in my experience as a DM and player, so I'm strict about it. I literally don't care if it ruins the spell for them.

*EDIT: I am very upfront about this. It isn't a surprise to the player.

I tend not to make these hard limits, but I do make my players aware that this is a world where area of effect spells exist. They should not be surprised when their undead horde gets hit by destroy undead or their furry wall of meat gets hit by a fireball or falls prey to a hypnotic pattern.

Minions are fine but my worlds tend to be worlds where the players are more effective if they go down a more diversified path than pure minions.

[Pex]

As a player, I usually give control over some of my minions to an ally. The fear that most DMs or players have is that a player with a lot of minions would bog down the game with lots of rolls;however, if you split that responsibility among the players not only would it allow the game to run more smoothly it allows the others to take part and not get bored waiting for their turns. It opens up strategies that would not be possible otherwise such as flanking maneuvers or whatever else you can think of. Your allies would still have to use a bonus action to control their share of minions but it is fun, interactive and makes bookkeeping a breeze.

The potential downside to that is players aren't spending the time not doing their thinking about what that want to do on their own turn. The time you save playing the minions is paid by the time delayed the players take on their own turn thinking about what to do then.


I tend not to make these hard limits, but I do make my players aware that this is a world where area of effect spells exist. They should not be surprised when their undead horde gets hit by destroy undead or their furry wall of meat gets hit by a fireball or falls prey to a hypnotic pattern.

Minions are fine but my worlds tend to be worlds where the players are more effective if they go down a more diversified path than pure minions.

Of course players should diversify, but they will be rightly miffed if every time they conjure creatures how coincidental the bad guys have the perfect spell to nullify them as soon as they go. It cost the bad guys their action, usually, so it wasn't a total waste but still.

[MrStabby]

Of course players should diversify, but they will be rightly miffed if every time they conjure creatures how coincidental the bad guys have the perfect spell to nullify them as soon as they go. It cost the bad guys their action, usually, so it wasn't a total waste but still.

Oh it's not every time - just most humanoid groups will aim to have at least one caster amongst them. Beasts and the like less so.

In my worlds people respond to what the threat is. Minions are pretty good, so some resources (such as spells prepared) go into that. Same logic behind villains and protection - they will craft items to make them resistant to fire damage and radiant damage as a priority. I will do this irrespective of the make up of the party. Same with things like truesight -often on the spell-list of antagonist wizards - and it sits there even if the PCs don't use invisibility at all. This is even more pronounced if there is reason why the bad guys have any intelligence on the party.

It isn't like there is only a small number of spells that can do this - not like it is needed to have the "perfect spell to nullify them" - just making smart use of a broad selection of good spells. You don't need wall of force, fireball will also do. You don't need fireball with hypnotic pattern and so on. There is such diversity that you don't need to go after the players at all - just play things naturally. I don't think that players should be "miffed" just because they frequently face casters with the foresight to pick good spells.

[Atalas]

not myself, but the wizard in one of my groups is a wizard who uses both Create Undead and Animate Objects. Create Undead has been our best trap solver besides the Rogue, while Animate Objects has been used once, to create a lot of Tiny minions out of ball bearings. That were then used on an Adult Red Shadow Dragon. Only upside for bookkeeping is due to everyone living in different states (or countries) we actually play online. So, macros and the like. But the DMs vocal expressions when Animate Objects was used, so totally worth it to hold it in for almost nfour months since getting the spell.

[Tanarii]

i.e. bad guys use fireball for the same reason PCs do.
Clearly anti-player DMing.
:smalltongue:

It's worth noting that fireball is on the Mage spell list. If you're prone to grabbing your bad guys right out to the MM, your players will see a lot of either Fireball or counter spells.

As far as conjure animals goes, not too long ago I scared the bejesus out of a low level party up against a lizardfolk shaman BBEG when he summoned 4 crocs on the first round. They'd been fighting them in the swamps and knew how tough they were. Since they were new players, I was kind and let them make an arcana check to "recall" that many spells are concentration. A round of concentrated fire later, no crocs. Next shaman action 4 more crocs. Next round dead shaman.

There's no particular reason enemies that have some inkling of what casters can do shouldn't have a general rule of using the same tactics of "Hit the Wizard/Cleric" when certain kinds of spells with obvious results start going off. Or in general. If they can, of course. And if that's how it works in your world, smart players will take that into account and use it against their enemies if they can. What's important is to be consistent. -ish. One way or the other.

[Pex]

i.e. bad guys use fireball for the same reason PCs do.
Clearly anti-player DMing.
:smalltongue:



Naturally, but I think the worst offense is when the bad guys cast healing spells on each other.