Eldritch Blast *edit* Remove Sorcerer

[Garfunion]

What if I remove eldritch blast catrip and all the invocations that tie into it from the warlock and give it to the sorcerer instead. Would that make the sorcerer to powerful?

[PhoenixPhyre]

What if I remove eldritch blast catrip and all the invocations that tie into it from the warlock and give it to the sorcerer instead. Would that make the sorcerer to powerful?

Yes. By far. And the warlock too weak. By far.

[nickl_2000]

Yes and since it needs to be over 10 characters, yes again

[Willie the Duck]

Probably not too powerful to exist. A definite best option for specific builds. It would probably turn the class into one giant quickened-double-Eldritch Blast spam machine, utterly ruining the class as a spellcaster and simply making it a living machine gun.

[Scyrner]

I third what these other folks have said. Abso-bally-lutely it would.

[Garfunion]

Yes. By far. And the warlock too weak. By far.
So a sorcerer who dips 2 levels into warlock is not overpowered?

As for the warlock, I plan on re-working the hex spell in to the class features, similar to bardic inspiration.

[nickl_2000]

So a sorcerer how dips 2 levels into warlock is not overpowered?

As for the warlock, I plan on re-working the hex spell in to the class features, similar to bardic inspiration.

No because in doing so you are delaying your spell progression by 2 levels by doing it. If you just gave them to the sorcerer there is no sacrifice to get EB instead

[Willie the Duck]

So a sorcerer who dips 2 levels into warlock is not overpowered?

What? How does the subject statement lead to this?

[Aett_Thorn]

This isn't the fix either the Sorcerer nor the Warlock needs.

[Unoriginal]

What if I remove eldritch blast catrip and all the invocations that tie into it from the warlock and give it to the sorcerer instead. Would that make the sorcerer to powerful?

Yes.

Unless you meant "give only the eldritch blast but none of the invocations to the Sorcerer", in which case it'd just be signigicantly more powerful.


So a sorcerer who dips 2 levels into warlock is not overpowered?

No, because you have to invest levels into it, which has consequences.



As for the warlock, I plan on re-working the hex spell in to the class features, similar to bardic inspiration.

And? How is that going to compensate the loss of their main attack?

[Garfunion]

No because in doing so you are delaying your spell progression by 2 levels by doing it. If you just gave them to the sorcerer there is no sacrifice to get EB instead
That is hardly a problem for sorcerer. With two levels of warlock the sorcerer basically gets their capstone before level 20.

[Aett_Thorn]

That is hardly a problem for sorcerer. With two levels of warlock the sorcerer basically gets their capstone before level 20.

Being a whole spell level behind in progression can be a big drawback. What you're talking about is a problem with things like Coffeelocks, which is more a problem with how Warlocks are designed and why their dips are a bit too good, especially for other Cha-based casters.

[nickl_2000]

That is hardly a problem for sorcerer. With two levels of warlock the sorcerer basically gets their capstone before level 20.

That isn't the only thing you are sacrificing though. If you are a level 3 sorcerer and level 2 warlock, you are tossing out level 2 spells while your friends at getting 2 attacks and throwing out level 3 spells. There is a big difference in power here.

[Ventruenox]

You need to think about the delayed spell progression in terms of when you can access level 3, 5, or higher spells instead of the capstones in character progression. That is the trade off and sacrifice.

[Matrix_Walker]

You can always just take Magic Initiate for Warlocks to poach EB.. If you can live without the invocations.

[Garfunion]

That isn't the only thing you are sacrificing though. If you are a level 3 sorcerer and level 2 warlock, you are tossing out level 2 spells while your friends at getting 2 attacks and throwing out level 3 spells. There is a big difference in power here.
By level 5 eldritch blast will have 2 attacks, you can quicken it for 4 attacks on your turn. Through in the hex spell, more than compensates for the loss of higher spell casting. You also have access to unique warlock first love spells.

[Willie the Duck]

That is hardly a problem for sorcerer. With two levels of warlock the sorcerer basically gets their capstone before level 20.

Analysis of the game that hinges on comparing things at exactly level 20 have very little relevance to most games played.


By level 5 eldritch blast will have 2 attacks, you can quicken it for 4 attacks on your turn. Through in the hex spell, more than compensates for the loss of higher spell casting. You also have access to unique warlock first love spells.


If you feel it is a fair trade (and it's not a ridiculous tradeoff, to be sure), then why not do that instead of giving those abilities over to sorcerers?

[Garfunion]

You can always just take Magic Initiate for Warlocks to poach EB.. If you can live without the invocations.
I know I’m just trying to add more zing to the sorcerer class.

[nickl_2000]

By level 5 eldritch blast will have 2 attacks, you can quicken it for 4 attacks on your turn. Through in the hex spell, more than compensates for the loss of higher spell casting. You also have access to unique warlock first love spells.

I never said that it wasn't a good choice for a dip. It certainly can be a great choice. I just don't think it is overpowered due the the loss of progression.


I know I’m just trying to add more zing to the sorcerer class.

Then give them something new and different. Poaching from the warlock class takes away from Warlocks to much. What is it you are trying to give to sorcerer? More combat utility? Invent a new cantrip that does something different and is more powerful. Create a new sorcerer subclass that gives bonuses to certain style spells.

[Garfunion]

If you feel it is a fair trade (and it's not a ridiculous tradeoff, to be sure), then why not do that instead of giving those abilities over to sorcerers?
The uniqueness the sorcerer once had, has now been given to all caster classes. Some of those caster classes even gain a third of the meta-magic sorcerer also possess.

Giving the sorcerer eldritch blast and transforming many of the invocations into meta-magic would give the sorcerer a more unique flavor.

[Unoriginal]

If your mind is already set on it, why ask us the question?

[Willie the Duck]

The uniqueness the sorcerer once had, has now been given to all caster classes. Some of those caster classes even gain a third of the meta-magic sorcerer also possess.

Giving the sorcerer eldritch blast and transforming many of the invocations into meta-magic would keep the sorcerer a more unique flavor.

I don't know that you'll find many people who agree that cribbing part of the warlock will make the sorcerer more uniquedistinct*.

*'more unique' is nearly an oxymoron. I would suggest unlearning using the term.

You are not wrong that much of why a sorcerer even exists has disappeared in this edition. It could probably use something to make it less of a 'wizard, but with Charisma casting, and no book.' But I wouldn't say that this is a great way to do it. But if you like it, go ahead. Just note that I wouldn't say just sending EB and agonizing blast and such over to the sorc side would qualify as 'balanced' either.


If your mind is already set on it, why ask us the question?

And that's really what it is. Garfunion, you really don't seem to be interested in hearing that we don't think this is either balanced or as good an idea as you think it is. So why ask?

[Garfunion]

If your mind is already set on it, why ask us the question?

Devils advocate approach. Also my mind isn’t set on it yet.

[Aett_Thorn]

The uniqueness the sorcerer once had, has now been given to all caster classes. Some of those caster classes even gain a third of the meta-magic sorcerer also possess.

Giving the sorcerer eldritch blast and transforming many of the invocations into meta-magic would give the sorcerer a more unique flavor.

If you say so. I think it would still just keep them feel not very unique, since they just stole something from another class. There are other ways to fix the class, but it doesn't seem like you want suggestions.

[Garfunion]

If you say so. I think it would still just keep them feel not very unique, since they just stole something from another class. There are other ways to fix the class, but it doesn't seem like you want suggestions.
Like how all the other casters stole the sorcerer’s “spontaneous” spell casting?

[Vogie]

The best way to make things balanced is using nuance. The reason EB /AB exists in the Warlock design is BECAUSE they're so limited by spells in other ways.

If you're looking to give the sorcerer some zing, give it to them in ways that have nuances, that have downsides.

For example:

circles of power they can inscribe on the ground that amplify their power... at a cost of downsides if they're knocked out of said circle.
Legendary combos of spells that, when executed perfectly, have a huge payoff... but will give them exhaustion and knock them unconscious afterwards
Introduction of something similar to critical hits and critical fails, and but with the nod that increasing your critical success range will also increase your critical fail range.


If you simply add "more of the same", that's exactly what you'll get.

[Garfunion]

Many of the invocations would actually be folded into the bloodline archetypes. Agonizing blast would be some form of extra elemental damage for dragon sorcerer, a d8 extra damage for wild magic. Repelling blast for the favored soul bloodline as a form of turning.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I really don't see how adding another d10 cantrip to the sorcerer list is a big deal. Eldritch blast is good, but it's the invocations that make it great. Invocations should stay with warlocks 100%. That's their thing.

If I wanted to give the sorcerer more zing, I might look at some of the stuff that the discarded UA lore wizard had and alter as appropriate.

[Willie the Duck]

Many of the invocations would actually be folded into the bloodline archetypes. Agonizing blast would be some form of extra elemental damage for dragon sorcerer, a d8 extra damage for wild magic. Repelling blast for the favored soul bloodline as a form of turning.


How is that thematically different from (ex.) a red dragon sorcerer casting fire bolt and getting +cha to their cantrip damage? Sure it does a little more total damage to count the +cha multiple times, but we haven't heard from you that this is about power.

[Baptor]

The uniqueness the sorcerer once had, has now been given to all caster classes. Some of those caster classes even gain a third of the meta-magic sorcerer also possess.

Giving the sorcerer eldritch blast and transforming many of the invocations into meta-magic would give the sorcerer a more unique flavor.

I agree with earlier posters in that if you give eldritch blast to sorcerers you will do the same thing to warlocks that you are now complaining about in regards to the sorcerer. The EB isn't just another cantrip in the Warlock's belt or even a really good one - it is the warlock class (hyperbole). Take that away and its mechanical identity is gone. Diluted.

I DO agree with you though that the sorcerer as written was clearly (and if I'm not mistaken, admittedly) done in haste by WotC at the last minute. It has a schtick - metamagic - but it's really not enough.

Kryx has done an amazing re-write of the sorcerer class you might like. I found it to go too far for my tastes, but you might find it right up your alley.

In my games I gave Sorcerers a miniature version of the sorcery point regeneration feature so they get a bit back every short rest. The sorcerers in my games hath said, "it is enough," and we have left it at that.

[Garfunion]

I may just get rid of the sorcerer altogether. Folding the bloodlines into the warlock and making meta-magic into feats

[Millstone85]

I may just get rid of the sorcerer altogether. Folding the bloodlines into the warlock and making meta-magic into featsThat or get rid of the warlock and turn patrons into bloodlines.

Either way, the fluff could be focused on the origin and nature of the magic within you (alien, celestial, divine, draconic, elemental, fey, fiendish, shadowy, wild...) rather than how it got there.

[Garfunion]

That or get rid of the warlock and turn patrons into bloodlines.

Either way, the fluff could be focused on the origin and nature of the magic within you (alien, celestial, divine, draconic, elemental, fey, fiendish, shadowy, wild...) rather than how it got there.
I agree with you on the fluff. But by removing the warlock you would lose the distinct way they cast spells(pact magic), spell-like abilities(invocations), and many other distinct abilities. The sorcerer however, you would lose......?....... font of magic?

[rbstr]

Could also just leave it all alone and it'll be ok.

[Garfunion]

Could also just leave it all alone and it'll be ok.
That is too easy.

[Millstone85]

I agree with you on the fluff. But by removing the warlock you would lose the distinct way they cast spells(pact magic), spell-like abilities(invocations), and many other distinct abilities. The sorcerer however, you would lose......?....... font of magic?Sorry. What I really meant is that you could merge the two classes, keeping mostly the mechanics of the warlock, and call it the sorcerer.

Because I feel it is easier to say "My sorcerer bargained for power" than "My warlock was born with power".

[Garfunion]

Sorry. What I really meant is that you could merge the two classes, keeping mostly the mechanics of the warlock, and call it the sorcerer.

Because I feel it is easier to say "My sorcerer bargained for power" than "My warlock was born with power".
True. I was kind of thinking that way too, just making sure. 😊

[strangebloke]

Like how all the other casters stole the sorcerer’s “spontaneous” spell casting?

Oh good grief I am so sick of hearing this.

Spontaneous spellcasting was the crappiest 'unique' feature to ever exist in a game. Class features are meant to add flavor and interesting new possibilities. Spontaneous casting was just a matter of removing a very small restriction that wizards had. It wasn't enough to justify a whole class, and 3.5 sorcerers were, IMO the worst designed base class in the PHB.

In 5e, justifications are much more sensible:

The warlock's main thing (mechanically) is that they have much more magical stamina throughout a long day.

The sorcerer's main thing (mechanically) is that they can do powerful, awesome, impossible things that no one else can do, but only once in a while.

Both of these ideas have plenty of *zing*. If you remove a core part of the warlock's main thing and give it to the sorcerer, the sorcerer becomes overpowered and the warlock loses a huge amount of power. The warlock's main theme becomes weaker and the sorcerer's main theme becomes weaker. This is bad.

Want to give the sorcerer zing? Let them take exhaustion levels to cast with 'free' sorcery points. Let them burn max HP to cast spells. Let them get thematic bonuses whenever they unleash a big spell. (The draconic sorcerer becomes wreathed in a spectral draconic form after unleashing more than 5 SP in a given round) Give them something that plays to their theme.

[Asmotherion]

You practically make "Sorlock Blaster" not Nececerally require a 2-3 Warlock dip.

It's still a design choice, and I wouldn't remove it entirelly, perhaps instead make a Sorcerer Origin that works like that... and that specifically does not scale with Warlock Invocations, so that you could still profit from a Pact if you so chose to go down that path?

For example:

Profane Soul Sorcerer:

At level 1, you know the Eldritch Blast Cantrip, and it doesn't count against your known Cantrips. At 2nd level you profit from the Agonising Blast Invocation, and One more Invocation that list Eldritch Blast as Prerequisits (look at the Warlock class for those Invocations). You can choose one more Invocation at level 11.

At level 6 you can Choose spells from the Warlock spell list as if you were a Warlock of that level.

At level 14, you can chose up to a 2nd level spell from each school: Necromancy, Transmutation, Divination and Illusion: You can cast those spells at will.

At level 18, you can chose 2 Invocations, disreguarding one of it's prerequisits.

PS: Balance wise, this is a VERY powerful Sorcerer. That said, he still has interest in Dipping Warlock for more and more diverse Invocations, a Pact Boon etc. Or he may opt for a diferent path.

PS2: Don't take this as a good example; I just made it from scratch in 5minutes. It's probably on the OP/Gestalt Spectrum.

[Garfunion]

Profane Soul Sorcerer:


Actually you got me thinking of a dark bloodline. Using a first level feature of divine soul and a lesser version of pact boon, We can create a dark inheritor bloodline.
I will post what I create in another thread and thank you for the spark of inspiration.

[Asmotherion]

Actually you got me thinking of a dark bloodline. Using a first level feature of divine soul and a lesser version of pact boon, We can create a dark inheritor bloodline.
I will post what I create in another thread and thank you for the spark of inspiration.

You're welcome I suppose XD