Arcane Trickster Optimisation

[CircleOfTheRock]

Hello, Giant in the Playground! A friend is beginning a 5e campaign soon, and I’ve created a build I’d like to get some feedback on.

My two fellow players have already created their characters, a (Standard) Human Barbarian, built as the archetypal Barbarian, and a Revised Ranger, intending to go Beastmaster.

The build (a Rogue, eventually going into Arcane Trickster), looks somewhat like this:

With V. Human as my race, and us using point buy, I settled on 15 (16) 15 (16) 14 8 8 10, putting the pair of 16s and the 14 into Con, Int, and Dex (although I can’t decide which should go where), the 10 into Cha, and the 8s into the Str and Wis... Or perhaps Wis and Cha should be swapped; a negative Wis save modifier is nothing to envy, even if I’ll eventually get proficiency.

I’d thought about taking Magic Initiate (Wizard) so I’d have a use for my decent Int for the first two levels, and to take Booming Blade (for extra damage on occasion), a utility cantrip, (for utlility, nothing more needs to be said), and Find Familiar, (for that sweet, sweet constant advantage, and therefore constant Sneak Attack).

I plan on going straight Rogue (Arcane Trickster), but feel free to talk me out of that.

I'll probably take Arcana as my bonus skill, and I’d planned on taking the background Urban Bounty Hunter - along with Rogue skills that’d come to proficiency in all the Dex skills, all the Cha skills, and Arcana.

I’m not sold on fighting via either melee or archery, but I think I’ll go melee - Booming Blade and a rapier makes for a decent combination. I don’t want to two-weapon fight, as it doesn’t work with Booming Blade all that well, and so many of my (future) abilities key off bonus actions...

Is there anything wrong with this most-of-a build (particularly the taking of Magic Initiate), and do you have any advice or thoughts about/on the problems I mentioned?

In addition, I have a question - on the Wizard class’s page, it mentions (as a class feature), that it can use arcane foci and component pouches, yet Arcane Trickster doesn’t seem to... What’s up with that?

Thanks in advance!

[Specter]

The guide in my signature might help.

[CircleOfTheRock]

The guide in my signature might help.
I have read that, but I’m not particularly concerned with, the optimisation of an Arcane Trickster (despite the title of the thread), I was more specifically asking of it was a mistake to take Magic Initiate (Wizard), where I should assign my scores, the relation of ATs and components for spells, and several other things in that vein - only some of which happened to be in your guide.

[CTurbo]

Arcane Trickster already has access to Booming Blade and Find Familiar so I don't think I would bother with Magic Initiate.

I would probably avoid human for lack of darkvision. High Elf or Eladrin would be my top picks. Extra cantrip or Misty step once per rest.

16 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha, 8 Str

Max Dex asap and you've got a very powerful build on it's own

[CTurbo]

Rogues are not a very feat dependent class IMO. Sure there are feats that will help or be useful but I wouldn't even consider one until Dex is maxed.

Alert is useful on anybody. Going first is always a good thing whether you are attack or just getting into position.
Mobile is useful on anybody, but especially for a Rogue since you are pretty much a skirmisher
Lucky is another one that benefits every single build for obvious reasons.
Defensive Duelist is very good for a Rogue. Yes it clashes with Uncanny Dodge but causing an attack to miss you completely is better than taking half damage.
Moderately Armored is under-rated on a Rogue since it adds at least +2 to your AC.
Sentinel allows you to get a second sneak attack per round which is great once those d6s start adding up. Be careful though as this means you are probably hanging around the front line.

[CircleOfTheRock]

Arcane Trickster already has access to Booming Blade and Find Familiar so I don't think I would bother with Magic Initiate.

I would probably avoid human for lack of darkvision. High Elf or Eladrin would be my top picks. Extra cantrip or Misty step once per rest.

16 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 12 Wis, 10 Cha, 8 Str

Max Dex asap and you've got a very powerful build on it's own
That said, we’re beginning at Level 1, and not only (without taking Magic Initiate) will we have no magic until the Ranger gets it at Level 2, but AT only gets a limited number of non-illusion-enchantment spells (one of which Find Familiar is). The general idea is that I’m just getting magic earlier (and using a few less spells known, and spell slots).

Extra damage is, generally, considered better :smalltongue:

It is true about darkvision, though.

[CTurbo]

You can get Booming Blade or any other cantrip from level 1 if you start High Elf.

Level 1 and 2 goes by so fast you'll be at level 3 before you know it. I would not take Magic Initiate.

[Specter]

I have read that, but I’m not particularly concerned with, the optimisation of an Arcane Trickster (despite the title of the thread), I was more specifically asking of it was a mistake to take Magic Initiate (Wizard), where I should assign my scores, the relation of ATs and components for spells, and several other things in that vein - only some of which happened to be in your guide.

- As for stats, personally I'd go 8 16 14 14 10 12. a) Intelligence only starts to be crucial if you use a lot of save-attack spells, so for now a 14 is pretty good; b) you will probably be shoehorned into being the party's face, so a little Persuasion/Deception with a decent CHA shouldn't be a mistake.
- It's all about how patient you are. At level 3, you can get all you would get from Magic Initiate. With MI, you would end up with 5 cantrips and 4 spells by level 3. Cantrips won't be that much fun once you have the ones the class gives you. So if you can afford to wait, I'd say take another feat, or even Magic Initiate from another class (Cleric for Guidance, Light and Shield of Faith/Bless could work).
- Arcana is a good skill, as you'll be the only one who has it. Don't worry about backgrounds.
- Foci are just a replacement for material components in your hand. If you can't use them, all you need is a free hand for the occasional spells with material components. Anyone who uses magic can use a component pouch (and should get one ASAP).
- Before multiclassing, reach level 5. After that, you'll have a better idea of what your party needs (if anything). Fighter and Wizard are never a mistake.

[JellyPooga]

I would tend to gravitate toward taking Magic Initiate (anything but Wizard). You already have access to Wizard spells going for Arcane Trickster, so poaching from another list will give you greater flexibility.

MI (Druid) could snag you Thorn Whip (for when you can't quite reach an opponent you want a bit closer) and Guidance (a very handy cantrip), plus Goodberry for some nice efficient out-of-combat healing, or Entangle for a bit of additional battlefield control, or Faerie Fire for a nice debuff. Longstrider is a great mobility enhancer, which can really take off at level two when Cunning Action turns that measly 10ft extra into an additional 20ft speed.

MI (Bard) gets you Vicious Mockery for a very nice at-will debuff, plus similar options to Druid.

MI (Warlock) gets you Eldritch Blast, which needs no introduction and accesd to Hex or Armour of Agathys if you plan on being up close and personal.

That's just scratching the tip of the iceberg.

[nickl_2000]

Personally I think that MI Wizard is a great choice for an AT.

You can take utility cantrips like Mold Earth, Gust, Shape Water, Control Flames, and your first level spell can be shield. Since shield is on the Wizard list, taking it in MI means that it's now known every day. You can use your other non enchantment/illusion for Find Familiar and get both those great spells.

[Diebo]

You've got a human barbarian and a beastmaster ranger, but no ritual caster or full-caster healer.

Given this group, I'd go healer feat at zero (might as well be human if your barbarian doesn't have darkvision, either).

And at 4th, I'd pick up ritual caster. With ritual caster and access to scrolls (you've got to spend your money on something). You'll eventually be able to cast Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Identify, Illusory Script, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Gentle Repose, Magic Mouth, Skywrite, Feign Death, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Phantom Steed, Water Breathing, Contact Other Plane, Rary's Telepathic Bond, and Drawmij's Instant Summons.

No darkvision? No problem, have your unseen servant carry a torch. Need to travel with a party of 3? Cast phantom steed and tenser's disk. Ooops, barbarian died. Gentle repose, preserves corpse for 10 days for raise dead. Haul him back on the tenser's disk. What does that old script in the tomb say? Comprehend languages. Is that sword magical? Detect Magic. What does it do? Identify. Man, we gotta take a long rest. Leomund's Tiny Hut. Sure don't want to be surprised when we sleep in the inn. Alarm. How are we going to cross that lake? Water breathing. Etc. etc.

At 3rd level, you'll get your trickster cantrips (booming blade, mage hand, and one other) and your spells. With ritual caster, find familiar can be a ritual spell, freeing your choice to grab things like absorb elements, shield, or something fun like fog cloud (tons of uses).

You won't be the main damage dealer. A barbarian with (presumably) Great Weapon Master at level 0 will handle that job.

I'd pick up dexterity at 8th. With advantage (eventually) from your fly-by owl familiar, you'll be able to land attacks even with 16 dexterity. Probably stick with a light crossbow for the most part until you get uncanny dodge. 5th level is when booming blade becomes more damaging anyway.

You also don't seem to have anyone with decent talking/face abilities. I'd take expertise in one talking skill (probably persuasion). Even with only 10 charisma, you'll do Ok. You'll want expertise in thieves' tools. That leaves you with two (perception? maybe slight-of-hand - with an invisible spectral hand, you can get yourself into all sorts of shenanigans).

Disregard much of this if you are playing a combat-focused dungeon crawl. I end up with about 1/3 time spend on exploration, social interaction, and combat. I like how rogues really can excel outside of combat.

Good luck, have fun!

[the secret fire]

Personally I think that MI Wizard is a great choice for an AT.

You can take utility cantrips like Mold Earth, Gust, Shape Water, Control Flames, and your first level spell can be shield. Since shield is on the Wizard list, taking it in MI means that it's now known every day. You can use your other non enchantment/illusion for Find Familiar and get both those great spells.

Yes, with the AT's very limited number of spells known (especially non-illusion/enchantment spells), MI Wizard can be a great choice. You'll want to take a non-illusion/enchantment spell that can serve as a staple for the character - Longstrider or Find Familiar, for example, are both great choices.

Regarding Find Familiar, though, the idea that it grants "sweet, sweet constant advantage" is extremely DM-dependent. I've seen owls meet a variety of grisly endings.

[GooeyChewie]

Regarding Find Familiar, though, the idea that it grants "sweet, sweet constant advantage" is extremely DM-dependent. I've seen owls meet a variety of grisly endings.

Very true. And keep in mind that if your familiar drops to 0 HP, you must cast the spell again to re-summon the familiars, complete with the 10gp worth of materials (charcoal, incense and herbs which must be consumed by fire) and a brass bazier in which you burn them. Depending on your DM and campaign, you might have tons of gp and easy access to components, or you may have little to no gp and scarce components.

[KorvinStarmast]

Given this group, I'd go healer feat at zero (might as well be human if your barbarian doesn't have darkvision, either). Healing Kits are so very handy with the healer feat. Our tier 3 group still uses them.

[JeffreyGator]

It is true that there is much death of owls.

As a player, my flying snake familiar is a bit less targeted - but I also use it a bit less than my owl using player.

Ritual caster is a decent suggestion. perhaps especially combined with MI(druid) for produce flame, guidance and goodberry. At this point, you are building the support/utility role on an AT frame which isn't a bad concept. An RP bonus that fits MI(druid) is that your entire party has a primal outlook.

14 int with 12 cha and 10 wis fits in well with your having taken many cha skills. Hopefully the ranger is good with perception and other wisdom skills.

Your group sounds relatively stealthy which might preclude booming blade for being loud or green flame blade for being flashy as a consideration - although I like both spells personally.

[Citan]

Hello, Giant in the Playground! A friend is beginning a 5e campaign soon, and I’ve created a build I’d like to get some feedback on.

My two fellow players have already created their characters, a (Standard) Human Barbarian, built as the archetypal Barbarian, and a Revised Ranger, intending to go Beastmaster.

The build (a Rogue, eventually going into Arcane Trickster), looks somewhat like this:

With V. Human as my race, and us using point buy, I settled on 15 (16) 15 (16) 14 8 8 10, putting the pair of 16s and the 14 into Con, Int, and Dex (although I can’t decide which should go where), the 10 into Cha, and the 8s into the Str and Wis... Or perhaps Wis and Cha should be swapped; a negative Wis save modifier is nothing to envy, even if I’ll eventually get proficiency.

I’d thought about taking Magic Initiate (Wizard) so I’d have a use for my decent Int for the first two levels, and to take Booming Blade (for extra damage on occasion), a utility cantrip, (for utlility, nothing more needs to be said), and Find Familiar, (for that sweet, sweet constant advantage, and therefore constant Sneak Attack).

I plan on going straight Rogue (Arcane Trickster), but feel free to talk me out of that.

I'll probably take Arcana as my bonus skill, and I’d planned on taking the background Urban Bounty Hunter - along with Rogue skills that’d come to proficiency in all the Dex skills, all the Cha skills, and Arcana.

I’m not sold on fighting via either melee or archery, but I think I’ll go melee - Booming Blade and a rapier makes for a decent combination. I don’t want to two-weapon fight, as it doesn’t work with Booming Blade all that well, and so many of my (future) abilities key off bonus actions...

Is there anything wrong with this most-of-a build (particularly the taking of Magic Initiate), and do you have any advice or thoughts about/on the problems I mentioned?

In addition, I have a question - on the Wizard class’s page, it mentions (as a class feature), that it can use arcane foci and component pouches, yet Arcane Trickster doesn’t seem to... What’s up with that?

Thanks in advance!
Hi!

Well...
1. If you expect to get not higher than lvl 10, then pure Arcane Trickster is the best, but you should not count that much on using offensive spells. As such I'd rather put the 14 in INT.
If, in the contrary, you think you'll get at least character level 11 then it's worth putting a 16 in INT because then you can learn a few interesting lvl 2 spells and/or multiclass into Bladesinger Wizard (duh, didn't realize you were going Variant Human, so that is out).

2. I honestly wouldn't pick Magic Initiate as a starting feat for several reasons.
- First, you'll get a chance at learning Booming Blade soon enough.
- Second, the extra damage could make a difference at level 1, *maybe level 2*, but then you'll hit a snag.
Really not worth taking the feat imo.
I'd rather pick Mobile (extra speed and free disengage is always great for a melee Rogue) or Ritual Caster (that way you can get Find Familiar right away for scouting and occasional Help in fight, and you may have a chance of learning many great rituals later if your DM follows you).

3. Two-weapon fighting is actually great for a melee Rogue to have, because it's one chance to land the Sneak Attack. Works very well paired with Mobile.
And it's not like it requires any investment either. Just keep another weapon on your side so you can draw/sheathe it depending on your need for the current round. :)

[Finieous]

I have a 9th-level human AT as my AL convention character. Took Magic Initiate (booming blade, light, find familiar) at 1st level. Took shield as my out-of-school spell at 3rd level. For a melee/cantrip rogue, it's fantastic. My owl has died once in 9 levels. With 60 ft. fly speed and flyby attack, it's not that hard to keep it alive.

Darkvision is no real loss. The owl has it, and you can use him to scout ahead when the situation requires. He can carry a seed or something with light cast on it and reveal the light (or not) as the situation requires. Sometimes casting light on a ball bearing and rolling it down a corridor is better than scouting. I have a lot of fun with light management.

It's a blast and extremely effective in and out of combat.

ETA: Some people always insist two-weapon fighting is great for rogues because it gives you two chances to land your sneak attack. So does find familiar, except it doesn't cost your Cunning Action.

[Citan]

I have a 9th-level human AT as my AL convention character. Took Magic Initiate (booming blade, light, find familiar) at 1st level. Took shield as my out-of-school spell at 3rd level. For a melee/cantrip rogue, it's fantastic. My owl has died once in 9 levels. With 60 ft. fly speed and flyby attack, it's not that hard to keep it alive.

Darkvision is no real loss. The owl has it, and you can use him to scout ahead when the situation requires. He can carry a seed or something with light cast on it and reveal the light (or not) as the situation requires. Sometimes casting light on a ball bearing and rolling it down a corridor is better than scouting. I have a lot of fun with light management.

It's a blast and extremely effective in and out of combat.

ETA: Some people always insist two-weapon fighting is great for rogues because it gives you two chances to land your sneak attack. So does find familiar, except it doesn't cost your Cunning Action.
I'm glad to hear that Find Familiar worked that well for you, but I wouldn't dare pretend this is the norm in your place. Many people around here have tried this tactic, and for some it worked very well, for other it was a waste.

Conversely, the fact that it worked so well for you also means it was a big waste spending a feat on it, when you could have just learned Find Familiar at level 3 then swap it later.
As for Booming Blade, I don't understand how waiting a whooping 1500 XP (somewhere between 2 and 5 sessions depending on how hard DM pushes you during each) would be that difficult to bear.
Of course, Magic Initiate does technically allow you to know two more cantrips overall, so that may be an incentive for someone that wants to know many cantrips early. But for someone that just wants Booming Blade? It's subpar when you can learn Booming Blade naturally.

Especially when you could instead grab Mobile feat instead:
- For a melee guy, 10 more feet means less often need to Dash.
- For a melee guy, block OA from your target means no need to Disengage either.
- For a melee guy, Hide from target will very rarely be an option unless you have blocked his view one way or another, which is usually resource-consuming.
Which means...
- More turns in which Cunning Action is unneeded, so space for more damage (bonus action weapon attack) or Mage Hand.
- For Booming Blade specifically, when you want to draw the target into chasing you to trigger the extra damage, you don't need to use Disengage or risk an OA anymore.

Your disdain for two-weapon fighting is equally ridiculous: wielding two weapon is available by RAW to everyone without any investment, and being currently dual-wielding so does not force anyone to use its bonus action on it either, nor does it prevent the use of Booming Blade or Cunning Action.

And if you make the maths, you'll see that damage wise at least until lvl 5 (and supposing enemy triggers the rider), two-weapon fighting deals better damage than Booming Blade, with or without the owl (since your owl can equally Help you on a normal weapon attack so enhances your to-hit in both cases).

So viewing them as competing options is kinda stupid, you just expand your available options each turn: when you know you will certainly use Cunning Action (or Mage Hand), use Booming Blade. When you probably won't need Cunning Action, use two-weapon fighting.

TL;DR: your build worked very well for you, and it's nice to read. It just proves that build optimization is not required to have fun neither to be a solid contributor.
But from an optimization point-of-view, taking Magic Initiate at level 1 to get specific tools just 1500 XP earlier than you otherwise would, is not optimization at all. :)

[Specter]

The biggest problem of Find Familiar at very low levels is the cost; 10gp at level 1 may be all you have, or even more than that. Dungeons at low levels also won't be packed with gold, so if the owl dies it may be a long time before you can summon it again.

[Angelalex242]

Another idea: Don't put too much effort into Int, and use save free spells. Then look for a headband of intellect later, which boosts your int to 19.

[poolio]

Don't know if it's been said already, but i would probably take the ritual casting feat for wizard, you don't seem to have a lot of arcane prowess in your team so a lot of the wizardly duties will more then likely fall on you, and having the ability to cast wizard rituals will really help with not using up all your spell slots, plus you can still get find familiar

[xyianth]

I think that a 1 level dip into fighter is very potent for any rogue. Fighter 1 lets you pick up some decent self healing, shield proficiency, and a fighting style. If you intend to be a ranged rogue, go with archery otherwise go with dueling. I wouldn't start as a fighter though, unless you intend to cast spells that require concentration. I usually recommend it as your 6th level.

Additionally, if Unearthed Arcana is available for use, I highly recommend two 1-level dips: rune scribe 1 and wu jen mystic 1.

Rune scribe 1 gets you the Opal of the Ild Rune's Flame Brand and Flame Stoker abilities. Flame Brand lets you add a +1-+3 modifier to any weapon (melee or ranged) and convert it's damage type to fire. Sneak attack's damage is the same type as the weapon, changing it to fire damage as well. Flame Stoker says you can reroll any fire damage you deal and choose the higher result. Combined, these two abilities give you advantage on all your sneak attack dice.

Wu jen mystic 1 gives you access to 2 extra skills, 3 psionic disciplines, and a psionic talent. I highly recommend the mastery of force, mastery of fire, and nomadic mind disciplines. Mastery of force lets you use inertial armor to give you an AC of 14+dex that stacks with a shield for 16+dex AC. It also gives force resistance, though not many monsters deal force damage. Mastery of fire gives you a +2 bonus to all fire damage just for focusing on it. (which should be your default) Nomadic mind lets you gain any skill, language, or tool proficiency you want as a bonus action. If you don't need the AC boost or don't want psuedo-jack of all trades, mastery of light and darkness gives you effectively darkvision+see through magical darkness when you focus on it instead.

I recently played a game as a variant human outlander thief rogue 5/fighter 1/rune scribe 1/wu jen mystic 1 with the healer and ritual caster(wizard) feats. It worked amazingly well. Lots of party support both in and out of combat, and when your crossbow does 1d8+3d6+2+dex damage at +2+dex to attack with advantage on both the attack roll and damage roll the lack of a second attack doesn't really matter. I don't think there was a single scene in the campaign where I wasn't able to contribute meaningfully.

[Finieous]

But from an optimization point-of-view, taking Magic Initiate at level 1 to get specific tools just 1500 XP earlier than you otherwise would, is not optimization at all. :)

I'm not that interested in debating what is and isn't "optimized," as you can probably tell from how long it took me to check in on this thread again. The real advantage of Magic Initiate is that you double your out-of-school spells to start. I chose shield at 3rd. Otherwise, you'll be 8th level before you get another one, and at that point you probably want a 2nd-level spell.

I certainly never felt as though the feat was "wasted." :smallbiggrin: