Archdevil Moloch (Mordenkainen's tome of foes preview)

[Envyus]

Another Monster Preview courtesy of Dragon+ issue 19.

Moloch the exiled Archdevil.

https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/dragon/19/DRA19_Moloch.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/3jiU0OL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/48hc1qD.jpg

[Protato]

Dragging people around with the cat-o'-ninetails seems like a pretty strong thing to do. If I ran him, he wouldn't be alone, but he would be the central point of the encounter. Also, he has a LOT of at-wills, including Wall of Fire, which would be a good way to lock down players while minions attack them. I like him from what I've read so far.

[Asmotherion]

I like him more than the Astral Dreadnought. He seems more Strategic and less of a one trick pony.

He caries the casual "Don't loose your Divine Caster or you're screwed" Tag, as any CR21 Fiend worthy of the Name should, and has a Further "This isn't even my final form" tag, in case you encounter him in Alter Self form, which makes him an even cooler boss, possibly for any kind of level encounter. He has a lot of agendas, so he has also a lot of reasons NOT to fight the players till death, just till they manage to delay him enough.

I like him a lot, mostly because I feel like presenting him as an NPC (with Alter Self) at early Levels, or perhaps 2-3 NPCs, then have him try to manipulate the PCs into promote his own Agenda (successfully or not, depending on the PCs choices), and then come back as a boss fight, which can make a great side story/optional boss in any campain.

[Envyus]

I like him more than the Astral Dreadnought. He seems more Strategic and less of a one trick pony.


This does make sense as he is a unique and intelligent being while the Dreadnought is well not.

[Unoriginal]

I like him a lot.

Not only he's a beast in combat, his statblock reflects the mental capacities someone who once ruled a layer of Hell should have. Furthermore, his lore is pretty much perfect to craft adventures around or just have him get involved in an otherwise unrelated campaign.

Plus the image of a mighty Lord of the Nine being too short on cash for his schemes is pretty hilarious. It's a big like seeing Jabba the Hutt accepting to smuggle Obi-Wan and Luke to Aldeeran because he has bills to pay.

An amazing example of D&D at its best: a mix of epic, awesome, scary and silly.

[Envyus]

Though I am a bit surprised it does not mention the reason for his relative weakness compared to other Lords of the Nine and the major Demon Lords is because he was never a true Archduke. He was Baalzebul's Viceroy ruling the 6th Layer in Baalzebul's name. (One of the reason he decided to defy Asmodeus was because Malagard convinced him that Asmodeus would respect him for it and make him full on ruler with Baalzebul's fall from grace.)

[Unoriginal]

Though I am a bit surprised it does not mention the reason for his relative weakness compared to other Lords of the Nine and the major Demon Lords is because he was never a true Archduke. He was Baalzebul's Viceroy ruling the 6th Layer in Baalzebul's name. (One of the reason he decided to defy Asmodeus was because Malagard convinced him that Asmodeus would respect him for it and make him full on ruler with Baalzebul's fall from grace.)

...what.

Envyus, this is not Moloch's lore anymore.

As mentioned in the doc, he WAS a full archduke, and he didn't rule the layer in the stead of Baalzebul

Also, While he's weaker than the Demon Lords presented so far, well, as the lore point out, he's been weakened since his time of glory.


You know, it might be weird, but if I ever wrote an adventure involving Moloch, I'd probably make him end up learning his lesson and trying another angle to gain power.

[Envyus]

I know it's not his lore anymore. I am just surprised they dropped it.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

He seems like an interesting hook for transitioning from adventures. There are plenty of MacGuffins throughout various modules he could be seeking, and he could blame the players for their destruction or other inaccessibility and demand the party make good.

[the_brazenburn]

I like him a lot.
Plus the image of a mighty Lord of the Nine being too short on cash for his schemes is pretty hilarious. It's a big like seeing Jabba the Hutt accepting to smuggle Obi-Wan and Luke to Aldeeran because he has bills to pay.

An amazing example of D&D at its best: a mix of epic, awesome, scary and silly.

Actually, the Astral Dreadnaught looks quite a bit like Jabba. That does take a quite a bit of the "dread" out of it.

Astralnaught, anybody?

EDIT: Wait a second. Astral naught...

Astronaut?

An Astral Dreadnaught is a human astronaut that that somehow made itself scary, thus adding the "dread" to its name.

[smcmike]

This is very good. I like the use of the old art, and the lore is very heavy with hooks. Nice to give him some concrete goals.

[Kane0]

Sweet. Never liked the Hag countess.

Hoping we get Zariel too.

[Unoriginal]

Sweet. Never liked the Hag countess.

Given how Asmodeus pummeled her into a bloody pulp, I think you're not the only one



Hoping we get Zariel too.

Pretty sure she was announced.

[sightlessrealit]

I hope this is an indication that Glasya will be getting a stat block cause she's one of the biggest bads in my campaign.

[Unoriginal]

I hope this is an indication that Glasya will be getting a stat block cause she's one of the biggest bads in my campaign.

We're almost certainly getting her stats, yes. Would be a very last minute change if they change it now.

[Envyus]

Question is there anyone here would like to make 5 characters of 12th level to battle Moloch in a PbP. Then buff those same PC's to level 17. For a round 2.

[GlenSmash!]

That Teleportation, Geas, Stinking cloud make for some pretty mean tactics. Paired with some minions this guy would be one of the funnest fights I think I could have.

[Tetrasodium]

cool monster, but sad to see they still look to be pushing 4e's much "loved" asmodious metaplot across the "shared multiverse".

[Envyus]

cool monster, but sad to see they still look to be pushing 4e's much "loved" asmodious metaplot across the "shared multiverse".

Huh what are you talking about. What does that have to do with Moloch's lore.

[Tetrasodium]

Huh what are you talking about. What does that have to do with Moloch's lore.


"Exiled from the Nine Hells, Moloch would do anything to reclaim his position. Long ago, Moloch earned his place among the other archdevils through the glory he won driving demons out of the Nine Hells. Asmodeus rewarded him by elevating Moloch to the rulership of Malbolge.
For eons, Moloch ruled his domain, vying against the other archdevils as he sought still greater power. This animosity worked in Asmodeus’s favor, since Asmodeus knew that Moloch’s scheming helped keep the other archdevils in check. The arrangement began to unravel, however, when Moloch took the night hag named Malagard for his advisor. Her words were poison, and gradually she convinced Moloch to direct his efforts to topple Asmodeus. Although the conspiracy nearly succeeded, it was thwarted. Moloch was stripped of his station and sentenced to death—and only the timely use of a planar portal allowed him to escape."
Not every setting fit as well as others. Some settings did not even have a compatible planar structure or compatible demon lore, but had it forced on them anyways for example.

Yes it's possible that elsewhere they lay some groundwork for fixing the damage caused; but people not speaking up in 4e might have made things worse to some degree so there is no reason not to raise worries instead of waiting quietly with fingers crossed.

[Envyus]

"Exiled from the Nine Hells, Moloch would do anything to reclaim his position. Long ago, Moloch earned his place among the other archdevils through the glory he won driving demons out of the Nine Hells. Asmodeus rewarded him by elevating Moloch to the rulership of Malbolge.
For eons, Moloch ruled his domain, vying against the other archdevils as he sought still greater power. This animosity worked in Asmodeus’s favor, since Asmodeus knew that Moloch’s scheming helped keep the other archdevils in check. The arrangement began to unravel, however, when Moloch took the night hag named Malagard for his advisor. Her words were poison, and gradually she convinced Moloch to direct his efforts to topple Asmodeus. Although the conspiracy nearly succeeded, it was thwarted. Moloch was stripped of his station and sentenced to death—and only the timely use of a planar portal allowed him to escape."
Not every setting fit as well as others. Some settings did not even have a compatible planar structure or compatible demon lore, but had it forced on them anyways for example.

Yes it's possible that elsewhere they lay some groundwork for fixing the damage caused; but people not speaking up in 4e might have made things worse to some degree so there is no reason not to raise worries instead of waiting quietly with fingers crossed.

Uh you do know that that has been the story since 2e. It has nothing to do with 4e. Asmodeus stripped Moloch of his position back then and appointed Malagard in his place. This has always been the default meta structure for the planes.

There was no damage caused cause this was always the situation.

[Tetrasodium]

Uh you do know that that has been the story since 2e. It has nothing to do with 4e. Asmodeus stripped Moloch of his position back then and appointed Malagard in his place. This has always been the default meta structure for the planes.

While true for many settings, the way you phrased that the problem. Prior to 4e some settings (ie eberron & dark sun) did not have that planar & demon structure but 4e ignored that & just shoveled it in while making the setting adapt rather than adapting it to those settings.

[Envyus]

While true for many settings, the way you phrased that the problem. Prior to 4e some settings (ie eberron & dark sun) did not have that planar & demon structure but 4e ignored that & just shoveled it in while making the setting adapt rather than adapting it to those settings.

Dark Sun has always been part of the meta setting. Planescape groups and books make reference to Dark Sun, it's just a Material plane that is near impossible to get out of or into

Eberron has always had Demons and Devils in it. They are just mainly in one plane fighting with each other. And Eberron itself is also remarked as another Material Plane that can be reached via spelljammer, but it's so far that it's planes have changed around and it's just a myth to most planer travels.

And Planescape is the Meta setting of 5e.

[Tetrasodium]

Dark Sun has always been part of the meta setting. Planescape groups and books make reference to Dark Sun, it's just a Material plane that is near impossible to get out of or into

Eberron has always had Demons and Devils in it. They are just mainly in one plane fighting with each other. And Eberron itself is also remarked as another Material Plane that can be reached via spelljammer, but it's so far that it's planes have changed around and it's just a myth to most planer travels.

And Planescape is the Meta setting of 5e.
darksun did not have planes, I've read that 4e gave them to it. Eberron had Khyber's children
(ie demons) yes, but it never had the nine hells & some of the other planes that were thrown in to replace existing planes in all but name. The demons in eberron , buch like dragons, do not have the same motives/goals/etc as those presented in the MM & the Asmodious metaplot was pretty incompatible with it so they forced the setting to adapt. It was so much so that Dragon 408 pg40-42 covers a way to adapt the new stuff to the setting as opposed to the other way around that was presented in the 4e eberron books themselves.

[Envyus]

Dark Sun is still stated to be in the Material Plane and reachable in Planescape since 2e. Eberron does not have the Nine hells, but it has Shavarath which is fought over by Demons and Devils.

And whats the Asmodeus Meta plot. Are you just talking about Asmodeus being the ruler of the Nine Hells. Which he has been since 1e.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Dark Sun is still stated to be in the Material Plane and reachable in Planescape since 2e. Eberron does not have the Nine hells, but it has Shavarath which is fought over by Demons and Devils.

And whats the Asmodeus Meta plot. Are you just talking about Asmodeus being the ruler of the Nine Hells. Which he has been since 1e.

I believe that he's referring to the fact that Asmodeus was basically a non-entity in 3.5e Eberron, but when 4e came about, they inserted his own demiplane into the cosmology (or something like that. I didn't really keep up with 4e). Point being, they literally just plopped him down in Eberron.

[Envyus]

I believe that he's referring to the fact that Asmodeus was basically a non-entity in 3.5e Eberron, but when 4e came about, they inserted his own demiplane into the cosmology (or something like that. I didn't really keep up with 4e). Point being, they literally just plopped him down in Eberron.

That has nothing to do with Moloch or his lore entry as I explained to him.

Also from looking at the 4e Eberron Setting. It has nothing really to do with Asmodeus and more with 4e shuffling Eberrons plane structure to be more like the 4e core one. Baator being one of the planes added in. Which is honestly not a huge deal. It only gets a paragraph in the book and is easily ignored.

[Daithi]

I noticed he can cast animate dead at will. That might give him a start on that army he wants to accumulate.

[Tetrasodium]

Dark Sun is still stated to be in the Material Plane and reachable in Planescape since 2e. Eberron does not have the Nine hells, but it has Shavarath which is fought over by Demons and Devils.

And whats the Asmodeus Meta plot. Are you just talking about Asmodeus being the ruler of the Nine Hells. Which he has been since 1e.



Baator, the Nine Hells: Hilator is populated not by angels but by devils, and ruled by the archdevil Asmodeus. Unlike the angelic rulers of the it her astral dominions, who claim only to be dedicated servants of the gods. Asmodeus claims to be a god in physical form, ruling his territory and his own servitors with an iron grip.
Influence: The presence of t he Nine Hells in the world is felt primarily as an influx of evil. Where Baator's influence is strong. evil and chaotic evil creatures feel empowered to make attacks on their enemies.
Baator did not exist previously. Compare the dragon 408 version to that for an extreme comparison

What Is Baator?
The Sovereigns created the planes, and the names of many of them are known to every student of the arcane. Yet there is more to reality than the well-known planes. Other islands are in the Sea of Siberys, and Baator is one of them. Angels fear to tread within this prison for rebellious immortals.

The angels of the Astral Sea say that at one time the gods of the Sovereign Host walked among them and perfected the work of the Progenitors. In Daanvi, minions of Aureon tend the Infinite Archive, while the angels of Boldrei keep the First Hearth burning. They are cogs in the vast machine of creation. Most of these divine servants are dedicated to their Sov-ereigns and their sacred duties. Yet there are always exceptions. Pride, passion, hunger for power, or simple doubt in the divine order—any of these things can cause an angel to fall. Angels are truly immortal and eventually re-form after physical death, so there needed to be a way to contain malevolent spirits.

According to records in the Infinite Archives, in the days before their final ascension, the Sovereigns worked together to build a prison from the raw stuff of the Sea of Siberys. Aureon wove binding spells to prevent any escape, while Onatar and Dol Dorn built mighty automatons that could crush any uprising. Each Sovereign created a personal domain within the prison as a place of punishment for those who rose up against them—nine hells for rebellious spirits. For a hundred thousand years, angels have been cast into Baator. The immortals of the outer planes are more ideas given form than they are creatures of flesh and blood, and as that fundamental idea changes, they physically change to reflect it. And so these former angels became devils as the seeds of pride and hate flourished over eons of torment.



Mahar, the Endless Night: Mabar is anything but a perfect paradise. Ruled by angels devoted to the Mockery, the Keeper, and the Shadow, the city is a pit of darkness and evil to rival the depths of the Abyss, devouring every spark of light and life that dares 10 intrude on its eternal, starless night.
Influence: When the Endless Night stretches dark tendrils into the world. shadows grow blacker and colder. and in some regions creatures gain a +1 bonus to all necrotic attacks. while radiant attacks arc weakened.


Mahar, the Endless Night Utter blackness where no light shines fills the plane of Mabar. the Endless Night. The starless night lasts forever. its gloom never diminishing in the least. The darkness literally devours the life of visitors to this plane. extinguishing every spark of light that dares intrude upon the Endless Night.

Mabar has the following traits:
Minor negative—dominant.
Enhanced magic: Spells that use negative energy, including inflict spells, are maximized.
Impeded magic: Spells that use positive energy are impeded.
Mabar Inhabitants: Barghest (all). bodak. succubus(demon). nightshade (all). shadow. shadow mastiff, Manual of the Planes: Xeg-yi, yugoloth (all),
Monster Manual III: Gloom golem. necronaut. Yugoloth(all).
All the creatures listed above are immune to damage
from negative energy. including the ambient energy of the plane.

Coterminous: When Mabar is coterminous to the Material Plane. every shadow grows blacker and colder. and the nights become far deadlier. Spells that use negative energy are cast at +l caster level if cast in darkness. and evil clerics rebuke or command undead as though they were one level higher as long as they are in darkness. During the night and while underground. Travel between the planes is much easier—simply stepping into an area where no light shines can transport a character from Eberron to Mabar. and barghests and shadows emerge From the Endless Night to hunt the nights of Eberron.

Mabar enters a coterminous phase for three dark nights once every five years. on the nights ofthe new moon closest to the winter solstice.

Remote: When Mabar is remote. shadows seem a little lighter and nights not so fearsome. Spells that use negative energy are cast at +1 caster level. day or night. and evil clerics rebuke or command undead as if they were one level lower. Mabar is remote for a period of Five autumn days once every five years. around the full moon nearest the summer solstice. two and a half years after each coterminous phase.




Dolurrh, the Realm of the Dead A place of hopelessness. eternal despair. and consumingapathv. Dolurrh is the realm
where mortal souls go after death. lt is not a reward. It is not a punishment. lt iust is. Dolurrh has the following traits:
Heavy gravity.
Timeless.
Impeded magic: All spells are impeded.
Entrapping: A visitor to Dolurrh experiences increasing apathy and despair while there. Colors become graver and less vivid. sounds duller. and all experiences tainted with ennui. At the conclusion of every day (of subjective time) spent in Dolurrh. any non native must make a will saving throw (DC 15 + the number of consecutive days in Dolurrh). Failure indicates that the individual has fallen entirely under the control of the plane. becoming an incorporial shade, an outsider native oil the plane. Travelers trapped by Dolurrh cannot leave the plane of their own volition and have no desire to do so. Memories of any previous life fade into nothingness, and it lakes a wish or miracle spell to return them.

Dolurrh Inhabitants: Nalfeshnee (demon). lemure (devil). marut (inevitable).
.Monster Manual III: Shadowsworn (demon, ephemeralswarm, plague brush.

Coterminous: When Dolurrh is coterminous. slippage can sometimes occur between The Material Plane andthe Realm ol‘the Dead. Ghosts become common on Eberron because. it is as easv tor spirits to remain in the world of the living as it is for them to pass to Dolurrlt. Spells to bring back the dead work normally. but run the risk of calling back more spirits than the one desired. Whenever a character is brought back from the dead while Dolurrh is coterrninous. roll on the following table
d% Result
01-50 Spell functions normally.
51—80 1d4 ghosts (CR = raised character's level) appear near the raised character.
81—90 As above. but, the wrong spirit claims the risen body and the intended spirit returns as a ghost.
91-99 The spell functions normally. but a nalfeshnee possesses the raised character.
100 The spell does not Function: instead. a nalfeshnee animate: the body.

Dolurrh is coterniinous for a period of one year every century. precisely fifty years after each period of being remote.
Remote: When Dolurh is eremote, spells that bring back the dead do not function. and it is impossible to reach
Dolurrh by means of plum shift. Only by journeying to Dolurrh (using astral Projection, gate, or a permanent portal
to the plane), finding the soul of the deceased. and bringing it back to the Material Plane can a deceased character be. returned to life during
this period. Once the soul is back on the Material Plane. no further magic is required to restore the dead to life. Both nalfeshnees and maruts frown on having souls retrieved in this manner. however.
Dolurrh is remote for a period of one year every century, precisely Fifty years after each coterminous phase.

Unfortunately that was incompatible with the nearest equivalent in the default cosmology. So 4e changed it like so

DOLlIRRH, THE SHADOWFELL
Dolurrh. also called the Shadowfell. is a place of gloom and despair. never brighter than twilight. Within this dark world is the desolate Realm of the Dead. where souls go at the end of lire on Eberron. Some say that the ultimate fate or souls is to remain in Dolurrh and fade into the shadows, while others cling to a hope that souls eventually pass beyond the Shadowfell. beyond even the Astral Sea. to the place where the gods reside, Dolurrh is also home to creatures of darkness such as shadar-kai. nightwalkers, and death titans.

Influence: When the Shadowfell draws near to the world, the boundaries between life and death grow thin. Ghosts become common on Eherron then, because il is as easy for spirits to remain in the world of the living as it is for them to pass into the Ilealm of the Dead. Rituals that call the dead back to life sometimes go awry, bringing ghosts or other undead along with the desired spirit.
At times. the Shadowfell grows remote from the world , and it becomes harder to cross between death and life. The Raise Dead ritual might not function at all. requiring characters to Ira\'el to Dolurrh to retrieve the soul or a departed companion.

so on & so forth.

[Envyus]

Yeah and all of that is unrelated to Moloch's lore and Asmodeus, it's related to 4e changing the cosmology. Which 5e has changed back for the most part.

[Envyus]

I noticed he can cast animate dead at will. That might give him a start on that army he wants to accumulate.

A pretty pathetic army. Given that Orcus can do the same thing but way way better. And the weak undead he can create one at a time are no match for most hellish armies. It's why he needs actual support like Yugoloths to help him.

[JackPhoenix]

Look, Tetrasodium, the book, like anything published so far for 5e, clearly isn't written with Eberron in mind. Whatever atrocities 4e did to the lore of every setting it touched, it's irrelevant for the (sadly, for now purely hypothetical) 5e version of Eberron. It's like complaining that 3.5e MM wasn't mentioning the Silver Flame in Couatl's entry, when that entry ignored any setting specifics, and Eberron made clear its couatls differ from the baseline.

Until we got an Eberron material, or anything that directly mentions connection to Eberron while directly contradicting previous lore (and I got the ominous feeling MtoF will be that book), we really shouldn't complain about stuff not related to Eberron contradicting Eberron's take on things. MtoF isn't even out yet, and you can't draw conclusions from few incomplete preview pages.

[Tetrasodium]

Yeah and all of that is unrelated to Moloch's lore and Asmodeus, it's related to 4e changing the cosmology. Which 5e has changed back for the most part.

Yes, indications are that it is going back based on stuff like "Eberron lacks the
traditional elemental planes, so you'll have to replace them with the following (with the understanding that they aren't perfect matches)"
in PotA, but that doesn't mean that they won't just force it to adjust to the ill fitting default cosmology fluff rather than adjusting the fluff to fit.

Given that they have already said things like how the mind flayer empire ruled eberron at one point (even though eberron's timeline dates back to the creation myth & mind flayers have been creations of the daelkyr)... It's not as if there is no cause to raise concerns. I raised a concern & have had several posts trying to suggest that my concerns are wrong & irrelevant from you so definitely still concerned.

[Envyus]

Yes, indications are that it is going back based on stuff like "Eberron lacks the
traditional elemental planes, so you'll have to replace them with the following (with the understanding that they aren't perfect matches)"
in PotA, but that doesn't mean that they won't just force it to adjust to the ill fitting default cosmology fluff rather than adjusting the fluff to fit.

Given that they have already said things like how the mind flayer empire ruled eberron at one point (even though eberron's timeline dates back to the creation myth & mind flayers have been creations of the daelkyr)... It's not as if there is no cause to raise concerns. I raised a concern & have had several posts trying to suggest that my concerns are wrong & irrelevant from you so definitely still concerned.

I almost want to ask what you are talking about in relation to the mind flayers cause I am fairly certain that never happened. But I am not going to because you are derailing my thread on Moloch with Eberron talk that has nothing to do with it.

So my request is to get back on topic.

[Tetrasodium]

I almost want to ask what you are talking about in relation to the mind flayers cause I am fairly certain that never happened. But I am not going to because you are derailing my thread on Moloch with Eberron talk that has nothing to do with it.

So my request is to get back on topic.

no no no. I made some on topic comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011194&postcount=18) about Moloch as presented in the pdf. You don't get to claim that I tried to threadjack it because you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011202&postcount=19) failed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011266&postcount=21) miserably ("]so[/url] [url="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011284&postcount=23) at (
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011313&postcount=25) dismissing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011404&postcount=27) the relevancy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011472&postcount=30) of a portion of those comments just because you realized your error once you've argued the point far enough to force quotes from multiple publications.

If you don't know enough about a setting to confidently claim that something is in error, don't try to dismiss things about it. The "well if it's true in $setting1 & $setting2, then it must be true in all other settings" attitude you took is what caused the initial problem. If naomi had said "oh no darksun totally had a full assortment of planes prior to 4e" I'd accept that I was grossly mistaken because she knows a lot more about that setting than I do. As to the mind flayer empire spanning every setting "including eberron" in the distant past, I think it came up in one of the many twitch videos.

[Lombra]

I can't bring myself to like the art, it feels so bland. A corpulent large tiefling with a flail and a loincloth. How devilish.

[Unoriginal]

I can't bring myself to like the art, it feels so bland. A corpulent large tiefling with a flail and a loincloth. How devilish.

...Yes?

Are you trying to argue that Tieflings are not devilish?

I'm not a fan of the loincloth, but it fits his lore as a bruiser who has lost nearly all his ressources.

The rest of his appearance reflects who he is as well, IMO.

[Envyus]

I can't bring myself to like the art, it feels so bland. A corpulent large tiefling with a flail and a loincloth. How devilish.

It's based on his 1e art. Also that is a scourge/Many Tailed Whip not a flail.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j3n-2h6uc1Q/WGdOCRBPyHI/AAAAAAAAKlY/U-sp44aeIqEBmYtywCJKCq1PPTi6QRCGACEw/s1600/archdevilmoloch.jpg



no no no. I made some on topic comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011194&postcount=18) about Moloch as presented in the pdf. You don't get to claim that I tried to threadjack it because you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011202&postcount=19) failed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011266&postcount=21) miserably ("]so[/url] [url="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011284&postcount=23) at (
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011313&postcount=25) dismissing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011404&postcount=27) the relevancy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011472&postcount=30) of a portion of those comments just because you realized your error once you've argued the point far enough to force quotes from multiple publications.

If you don't know enough about a setting to confidently claim that something is in error, don't try to dismiss things about it. The "well if it's true in $setting1 & $setting2, then it must be true in all other settings" attitude you took is what caused the initial problem. If naomi had said "oh no darksun totally had a full assortment of planes prior to 4e" I'd accept that I was grossly mistaken because she knows a lot more about that setting than I do. As to the mind flayer empire spanning every setting "including eberron" in the distant past, I think it came up in one of the many twitch videos.

The closest thing to on topic that you said was that Moloch was Cool and that you were sad to see that Asmodeus 4e lore was involved. Which I pointed out was not true as this had always been the lore for Moloch since 2e.
I never failed at dismissing the relevancy of your comment, I did dismiss it. Because it has nothing to do with Moloch or his lore. It only matters for 4e changing Eberron's cosmology. Which has nothing to do with Asmodeus other then that the Nine Hells were one of the planes inserted into Eberron in 4e.

Which still does not matter because it has nothing to do with Moloch or his lore. I never said anything like "well if it's true in $setting1 & $setting2, then it must be true in all other settings" as most of the Hell Lore has nothing to do with Eberron.

So on the Mind Flayer things I think you are just making stuff up or misheard something. Cause that is not true unless you want to find the source.

Anyway to end this I am dismissing your chat about Ebberon and the rest of this not because I am in error. (Because those quotes you made did nothing but show that Eberron's planes changed between 3 and 4e something I had already said happened.) But because it has nothing to do with the topic.

[Tetrasodium]

It's based on his 1e art. Also that is a scourge/Many Tailed Whip not a flail.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j3n-2h6uc1Q/WGdOCRBPyHI/AAAAAAAAKlY/U-sp44aeIqEBmYtywCJKCq1PPTi6QRCGACEw/s1600/archdevilmoloch.jpg




The closest thing to on topic that you said was that Moloch was Cool and that you were sad to see that Asmodeus 4e lore was involved. Which I pointed out was not true as this had always been the lore for Moloch since 2e.
I never failed at dismissing the relevancy of your comment, I did dismiss it. Because it has nothing to do with Moloch or his lore. It only matters for 4e changing Eberron's cosmology. Which has nothing to do with Asmodeus other then that the Nine Hells were one of the planes inserted into Eberron in 4e.

Which still does not matter because it has nothing to do with Moloch or his lore. I never said anything like "well if it's true in $setting1 & $setting2, then it must be true in all other settings" as most of the Hell Lore has nothing to do with Eberron.

So on the Mind Flayer things I think you are just making stuff up or misheard something. Cause that is not true unless you want to find the source.

Anyway to end this I am dismissing your chat about Ebberon and the rest of this not because I am in error. (Because those quotes you made did nothing but show that Eberron's planes changed between 3 and 4e something I had already said happened.) But because it has nothing to do with the topic.

The planes changed to fit asmodious & his assorted lore baggage fthat was more compatible with the 2e settings you reference. Just because it was "always" the case in those settings, does not make it the case in other settings. If it was "always" the case for a setting like eberron, there would have been no need for dragon 408 page 40-43 explaining how to adapt baator, Asmodious, & that style of devils needed to support him. People like to point to ECS8 point 1, and you are justifying the claim that admodeous/baator/etc were "always" there, but they quickly ignore points two through ten.

If it exists in d&d, then it has a place in eberron. A monster or spell or magic item from the core rulebooks might feature a twist or two to account for Eberron's tone and attitude. but otherwise everything in the Player's
Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and monster manual has a place somewhere in Eberron. Also. this is the first D&D setting(markup mine)
built entirely l'rorn the v3.5 rules. which enabled us to blend rules and 5‘01"? “1 brand-new ways.
2. Tone and attitude. The campaign combines traditional medieval D&D fantasy with swashbuckling action, and dark adventure. Alignments are relative gauges of a character or creatures viewpoint. and not absolute barometers opf affiliation and action; nothing is exactly as it seems. Alignments are blurred. so that it's possible to encounter an evil silver dragon or a good vampire. Traditionally good aligned creatures may wind up opposed to the heroes. while well-known agents of evil might provide assistance when it's least expected. To help capture the cinematic nature of
the swordplay and spellcasting. we've added action points to the rules mix. This spendable. limited resource allows
players to alter the outcome of dramatic situations and have their characters accomplish the seemingly impossible.
3. Aworld of magic. The setting supposes a world that developed not through the advance of science. but by the mastery of arcane magic. This concept allows for certain conveniences unimagined in other medieval timeframes. The binding and harnessing ofelemental creatures makes airships and rail transport possible. A working class of minor mages uses spells to provide energy and other necessities in towns and cities. Advances in magic item creation have led to everything from self-propelled farming implements to sentient. free willed constructs.
4:. A world of adventure. From the steaming-jungles of Aerenal to the colossal ruins of Xen'drik, from the towering keeps of Sharn to the blasted hills and valleys of the Demon Wastes. Eberron is a world of action and adventure. Adventures can and should draw heroes from one exotic location to another across nations. continents. and the entire world. The quest for the Mirror of the Seventh Moon may take the heroes from a hidden desert shrine to a ruined castle in the Shadow Marches and finally to a dungeon deep below the Library of Korranberg. Through the use of magical transportation. heroes can reach a wider range of environments over the course of an adventure. and thus deal with a diverse assortment of monsters and challenges.
5. The Last War has ended—~sort of. The Last War. which plunged the continent of Khorvaire into civil war
more than a century ago. ended with the signing of the Treaty ofThronehold and the establishment oft welve recognized nations occupying what was once the kingdom of Gialifar. At least overtly. the peace has held for almost two years as the campaign begins. The conflicts. the anger. and the pain of the long war remain. however, and the new nations seek every advantage as they prepare for the inevitable next war that will eventually break out on the continent.
5. The Five Nations. The human dominated civilizations on the the continent of Khorvaire trace a lineage to
the ancient kingdom ofGalifar. which was made up of five distinct regions. or nations. These were Aundair. Breland. Cyre. Karrnath. and Thrane. Four of these survive to the present day as independent countries: Cyre was destroyed before the start of the campaign. The devastated territory it once occupied is now known as the Mournland. A common epithet among the people of Khorvaire is "By the Five Nations." or some version thereof. The Five Nations refers to the ancient kingdom of Galifar and harkens back to a legendary time of peace and prosperity.
7. A world of intrigue. The war is over. and the nations of Khorvaire now try to build a new age of peace and prosperity. Ancient threats linger. however. and the world desperately needs heroes to take up the cause. Nations compete on many levels—economic. political influence. territory. magical power-—each looking to maintain or improve its current status by any means short of all-out war. Espionage and sabotage services create big business in certain circles. The dragon marked houses. churches both pure and corrupt. crime lords. monster gangs. psionic spies. arcane universities. royal orders of knights and wizards. secret societies. siniste masterminds. dragons. and a multitude of organizations and factions jockey for position in the afterglow of the Last War. Eberron teems with conflict and intrigue.
8. Dragonmark dynasties. The great dragon marked families are the barons ofindustry and commerce through out Khorvaire and beyond. Their influence transcends political boundaries. and they remained mostly neutral during the Last War. While not technically citizens of any nation. the matriarchs and patriarchs of each house live in splendor within their enclaves and emporiums located throughout Khorvaire. These dynastic houses of commerce derive their power from the dragonmarks unique hereditary arcane sigils that manifest on certain individuals within the family. granting them limited but very useful magical abilities associated with the trade guilds the family controls.
9. Dragonshards. Ancient legends and creation myths describe Ehbrron as a world in three parts: the ring above. the subterranean realm below. and the land between. Each of these world sections is tied to a great dragon of legend—Siberys. Khyber. and Eberron. Each section of the world produces stones and crystals imbued with arcane power—dragonshards. With dragonshards. Dragonmarks can be made more powerful. elementals can be controlled and harnessed. and magic items of all sorts can be crafted and shaped. These shards. however. are rare and difficult to come by. making them expensive and often the goals ofgreat quests and adventures.
10. New races. In addition to the common player character races found in the Plycr's Handbook. players can choose to play changelings. kalashtar. shifters. and warforged in Ebert-on. Changelings are a race that evolved from the crossing of doppelgangers and humans. giving them minor shapechanging abilities. Kalashtar are planar entities merged with human hosts who are capable of becoming powerful wielders of psionicpower. (To fully utilize the kalashtar and other psionic elements of the world. we strongly recommend the use of the Expanded Psionics Handbook.) Shifters developed from the mixing of humans and lycanthropes. a union that grants them limited bestial abilities and feral instincts. The warforged are sentient constructs created during the Last War who developed free will and a desire to improve their position in the world.

And now. as the lightning rail pulls into the station at First Tower. it's time to explore the world of Eberron and see what adventures await us. Grab your sword. gather your companions. and make sure you‘re ready—for anything.

And. Now . . .
How you approach the rest of this book depends on your own style and interests. If you want to know more about the particulars of the world and the story underlying the campaign setting. check out Chapter 7: Life in the World and Chapter 8: Organizations. Or. if game mechanics are your first interest. turn the page and begin with Chapter 1: Character Races. lf you come across an unfamiliar name or term anywhere in the book. you can use the index to locate more information on the topic.
Dark Sun has a similar "Eight characteristics of Athas"



So please, stop pretending that 2e books written for settings like faerun, greyhawk, & planescape must be applicable as written to every setting. 4e looked at the first 12 words in eberron's 10 points about "tone" & didn't bother to even finish point 1 let alone use the other nine points when it came to shoehorning Asmodeous & his supporting baggage as is.

Again... What I think of Moloch is that he's pretty cool for the settings where him & his supporting baggage "from 2e" fit. Mechanically he seems sound. The artwork looks fine, unlike others thinking tiefling though... he clearly looks more like a Balor. I still however worry that they might stop reading after the first twelve words in point one & feel justified in raising that concern.
edit: had a baator in place of moloch

[Unoriginal]

A pretty pathetic army. Given that Orcus can do the same thing but way way better. And the weak undead he can create one at a time are no match for most hellish armies. It's why he needs actual support like Yugoloths to help him.

Still, it should be noted, while he minions he'd get from that might not be strong, he could use the unlimited number of time he can cast Animate Dead to get enough undead to destroy any city in the Material Plane. And unlike others like Orcus, he *can* goes there without needing exceptional circumstances.

And that's not even going on how he can Geas people at will.

Man, Moloch really is not someone to underestimate.

[Envyus]

Ok ignoring the 10 point of Ebberon because that has nothing to do with this.


The planes changed to fit asmodious & his assorted lore baggage fthat was more compatible with the 2e settings you reference.
The Planes changed not to fit Asmodeus and his lore. They changed it to fit 4e's cosmology. Which the Nine Hells were also fairly different in.


Just because it was "always" the case in those settings, does not make it the case in other settings. If it was "always" the case for a setting like eberron, there would have been no need for dragon 408 page 40-43 explaining how to adapt baator, Asmodious, & that style of devils needed to support him. People like to point to ECS8 point 1, and you are justifying the claim that admodeous/baator/etc were "always" there, but they quickly ignore points two through ten.

I never said it was always the case in other settings. Nor that Asmodeus was always there.


So please, stop pretending that 2e books written for settings like faerun, greyhawk, & planescape must be applicable as written to every setting. 4e looked at the first 12 words in eberron's 10 points about "tone" & didn't bother to even finish point 1 let alone use the other nine points when it came to shoehorning Asmodeous & his supporting baggage as is.
I never said 2e books must be applicable to every setting. And once again Asmodeus was not the part that was shoehorned in. Asmodeus was just part of the package that came shoehorned in.


Again... What I think of Baator is that he's pretty cool for the settings where him & his supporting baggage "from 2e" fit. Mechanically he seems sound. The artwork looks fine, unlike others thinking tiefling though... he clearly looks more like a Balor. I still however worry that they might stop reading after the first twelve words in point one & feel justified in raising that concern.

I stopped reading after first paragraph for sure. Cause this has nothing to do with Moloch. :smallannoyed: Please stop coming into threads and posting about stuff being different in Eberron. I like Eberron and think it's a cool setting. But it has nothing to do with this.

It's only link to the other settings are that it is technically reachable via spelljammer.

[Envyus]

Still, it should be noted, while he minions he'd get from that might not be strong, he could use the unlimited number of time he can cast Animate Dead to get enough undead to destroy any city in the Material Plane. And unlike others like Orcus, he *can* goes there without needing exceptional circumstances.

And that's not even going on how he can Geas people at will.

Man, Moloch really is not someone to underestimate.

Unlimited numbers of times still results in him needing to find the corpses animate them one at a time then at the end of 24 hour period casting it again on all of them. Along with the fact he can only give orders to ones within 60 ft of him. It's useful indeed, but it's a slow and tedious process because he can only cast the spell at the lowest level.

[Tetrasodium]

I never said 2e books must be applicable to every setting. And once again Asmodeus was not the part that was shoehorned in. Asmodeus was just part of the package that came shoehorned in.

That is an irrelevant splitting of hairs, the two are opposite sides of the same coin. You take issue with moloch being related to asmodious' metaplot that is actually mentioned & try to suggest that the original concern was irrelevant but seem to think adding a new plane called "baator the nine hells" is completely unrelated to Asmodious & his metaplot when baator's first sentence is "Hilator is populated not by angels but by devils, and ruled by the archdevil Asmodeus.". Yes as you mention eberron always had shavarath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011313&postcount=25), they could indeed have adjusted his metaplot to fit shavarath... but instead they gave him a whole new plane & changed some of the existing planes in order to keep as much of his metaplot in tact. Adjusting his metaplot to fit the setting instead of the setting to fit the metaplot because khyber's children (demons/devils, aka "demons") are very different & it would have required significant changes as dragon 408 describes over 3 pages

You want to split hairs to claim irrelevance of the planar changes to admodeous & his metaplot they put those same split hairs back together (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011404&postcount=27) so you can claim that my concerns about moloch's entry mentioning said metaplot are irrelivant. You can't have it both ways.

Accept that you are wrong & move on. Stop coming back to argue that you were right & any disagreement with your attempt at dismissal is a threadjack.

[Unoriginal]

Unlimited numbers of times still results in him needing to find the corpses animate them one at a time then at the end of 24 hour period casting it again on all of them. Along with the fact he can only give orders to ones within 60 ft of him. It's useful indeed, but it's a slow and tedious process because he can only cast the spell at the lowest level.

Oh, sure, but the thing is, he doesn't *need* to give them orders.

Although he'd probably rather not do that, he could simply animate the dead, then let them loose on the city.

It'd requires a few logistic issues to solve first, for sure, probably involving a lot of corpses and a big enough room to do keep the Undead in, and as I said it's probably not something he desires, but still, nothing to laugh at.

[Envyus]

That is an irrelevant splitting of hairs, the two are opposite sides of the same coin. You take issue with moloch being related to asmodious' metaplot that is actually mentioned & try to suggest that the original concern was irrelevant but seem to think adding a new plane called "baator the nine hells" is completely unrelated to Asmodious & his metaplot when baator's first sentence is "Hilator is populated not by angels but by devils, and ruled by the archdevil Asmodeus.". Yes as you mention eberron always had shavarath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011313&postcount=25), they could indeed have adjusted his metaplot to fit shavarath... but instead they gave him a whole new plane & changed some of the existing planes in order to keep as much of his metaplot in tact. Adjusting his metaplot to fit the setting instead of the setting to fit the metaplot because khyber's children (demons/devils, aka "demons") are very different & it would have required significant changes as dragon 408 describes over 3 pages

You want to split hairs to claim irrelevance of the planar changes to admodeous & his metaplot they put those same split hairs back together (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23011404&postcount=27) so you can claim that my concerns about moloch's entry mentioning said metaplot are irrelivant. You can't have it both ways.

Accept that you are wrong & move on. Stop coming back to argue that you were right & any disagreement with your attempt at dismissal is a threadjack.

What the hell are you even talking about. I never said I took issues with Moloch being related to Asmodeus' metaplot.

Adding a new plane is a major change to a setting. But that change was just one of many that came with 4e. A paragraph which is not too big a deal in comparison to everything else that was being changed as well. The changes to other planes had nothing to do with Asmodeus being brought in. That was a result of 4e changing the planes.

The Metaplot is the same as it has always been Moloch is an exiled Archdevil that used to work for Asmodeus. These things have nothing to do with Ebberon. Other then that the Nine Hells became a plane there in 4e. This is not some grand anti Eberron conspiracy this is the default fluff of a monster. Using the fluff he has had for years. Your concerns about Moloch's entry mentioning Asmodeus is irrelevant. Because it has nothing to do with Eberron in 5e. And this thread has nothing to do with Eberron so quit bringing it up.

[Honest Tiefling]

I can't bring myself to like the art, it feels so bland. A corpulent large tiefling with a flail and a loincloth. How devilish.

Yeah. Interesting guy and certainly a good hook for planar shenanigans, but...Dear lord. I feel like I am going to get a lot of groin related jokes on that art, and it is a just a generic Bile Demon type thing. His horns are asymmetrical and that bugs me for a devil.

Through I sorta like the retcon, I don't think many people were fond of the Night Hag. No better way to make your villains look competent then to show that someone else can do their job just as well! Through this does cause me to wonder they changed how her domain looks, probably because it seemed too demony or they ran out of room.

[smcmike]

Oh, yeah, the art is pretty bleh. I like that old 1e art more, tbh. Something about his expression in the new art is kind of lame.

[Tetrasodium]

Yeah. Interesting guy and certainly a good hook for planar shenanigans, but...Dear lord. I feel like I am going to get a lot of groin related jokes on that art, and it is a just a generic Bile Demon type thing. His horns are asymmetrical and that bugs me for a devil.

Through I sorta like the retcon, I don't think many people were fond of the Night Hag. No better way to make your villains look competent then to show that someone else can do their job just as well! Through this does cause me to wonder they changed how her domain looks, probably because it seemed too demony or they ran out of room.

Maybe Wotc will give him an over the top 80's metal band style spiked leather and/or rhinestone codpiece instead of that cheap loincloth! >:D

[damascoplay]

2 poor 2 pay for an army. And not enough money to pay the bills.

Damn, i almost feel bad for Moloch.

[Unoriginal]

Oh, yeah, the art is pretty bleh. I like that old 1e art more, tbh. Something about his expression in the new art is kind of lame.


Yeah. Interesting guy and certainly a good hook for planar shenanigans, but...Dear lord. I feel like I am going to get a lot of groin related jokes on that art, and it is a just a generic Bile Demon type thing. His horns are asymmetrical and that bugs me for a devil.

Eh. Personally I like the art quite a lot. It fits the aesthetic of the other Devils, and help showcase Moloch as being stronger than most Devils, but not being the most original or imaginative.

Though I'd have Moloch invest in a business suit or the like when he gets more funds, because that kind of loincloth would only look decent in a Sumo match.



Through I sorta like the retcon, I don't think many people were fond of the Night Hag. No better way to make your villains look competent then to show that someone else can do their job just as well! Through this does cause me to wonder they changed how her domain looks, probably because it seemed too demony or they ran out of room.

There was no retcon, though. Moloch ruled the layer, then the Night Countess did after tricking Moloch, then she made Asmodeus angry and he pummeled her so hard she was littered all around the layer.

[Envyus]

Through I sorta like the retcon, I don't think many people were fond of the Night Hag. No better way to make your villains look competent then to show that someone else can do their job just as well! Through this does cause me to wonder they changed how her domain looks, probably because it seemed too demony or they ran out of room.

What retcon?

[Tetrasodium]

What retcon?

retroactive continuity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Retcon), Ie what you are suggesting did not occur to fit eberron around asmodious & his metaplot in 4e that I shouldn't raise concerns about seeing again.

[Kuulvheysoon]

What the hell are you even talking about. I never said I took issues with Moloch being related to Asmodeus' metaplot.

Adding a new plane is a major change to a setting. But that change was just one of many that came with 4e. A paragraph which is not too big a deal in comparison to everything else that was being changed as well. The changes to other planes had nothing to do with Asmodeus being brought in. That was a result of 4e changing the planes.

The Metaplot is the same as it has always been Moloch is an exiled Archdevil that used to work for Asmodeus. These things have nothing to do with Ebberon. Other then that the Nine Hells became a plane there in 4e. This is not some grand anti Eberron conspiracy this is the default fluff of a monster. Using the fluff he has had for years. Your concerns about Moloch's entry mentioning Asmodeus is irrelevant. Because it has nothing to do with Eberron in 5e. And this thread has nothing to do with Eberron so quit bringing it up.

What I believe that Tetrasodium is trying to say is "Why not just make Asmodeus a powerful warlord in Shavarath" and then proceed from there? Instead, they tossed in Baator and called it a day. If I had run 4E, that's almost 100% what I would have done.

[Honest Tiefling]

What retcon?

Reread Glasya's section, apparently Mrs. Haggy did in fact rule the place for a while, but it isn't clear how long. I wonder why other people dislike her, considering unlike many other characters in DnD she's really quite permanently dead.

[Tetrasodium]

What I believe that Tetrasodium is trying to say is "Why not just make Asmodeus a powerful warlord in Shavarath" and then proceed from there? Instead, they tossed in Baator and called it a day. If I had run 4E, that's almost 100% what I would have done.

Pretty much spot on. There are a lot of ways they could have fit him in a warlord isn shavarath, dress him up as one of the lords of dust (a fairly incompetent one given his metaplot fluff) his own little screwy pocket of khyber called the nine hells that fits the soul gathering demon vrs devil lore he needs... the stuff mentioned in dragon 408 about how to adapt his baggage to fit the setting instead... alll kinds of possible ways to fit him into the setting.

instead they looked at point 1 of 10 on tone in eberron & ignored all of the bolded bit to avoid needing to modify his metaplot to fit the setting


1. If it exists in d&d, then it has a place in eberron. A monster or spell or magic item from the core rulebooks might feature a twist or two to account for Eberron's tone and attitude. but otherwise everything in the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and monster manual has a place somewhere in Eberron.

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I miss the bits from the older monster manuals of third edition. Many creatures (and at least one template) had rules and ideas on how to adapt it for different settings. I mean, the UA well is going to run out soon enough so why not some adaptation fluff?

[Tetrasodium]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I miss the bits from the older monster manuals of third edition. Many creatures (and at least one template) had rules and ideas on how to adapt it for different settings. I mean, the UA well is going to run out soon enough so why not some adaptation fluff?

I can't remember the exact wording, but someone from wotc gave an indication that there would be relevant references fitting different settings a couple weeks ago.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I can't remember the exact wording, but someone from wotc gave an indication that there would be relevant references fitting different settings a couple weeks ago.

Oh? Color me intrigued. Are we talking a whole UA covering monsters X-X in the MM, or sidebars in MToF for the new monsters?

[Tetrasodium]

Oh? Color me intrigued. Are we talking a whole UA covering monsters X-X in the MM, or sidebars in MToF for the new monsters?

There were not any specifics & thus far everything has been fairly generic (ie astral whatsit) or "default setting" (the duergar & moloch)

[Envyus]

Reread Glasya's section, apparently Mrs. Haggy did in fact rule the place for a while, but it isn't clear how long. I wonder why other people dislike her, considering unlike many other characters in DnD she's really quite permanently dead.
Thats not a retcon.



retroactive continuity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Retcon), Ie what you are suggesting did not occur to fit eberron around asmodious & his metaplot in 4e that I shouldn't raise concerns about seeing again.

That was not what I was relying to. And I know that it was a retcon to bring Baator and all those other planes to Eberron in 4e.


What I believe that Tetrasodium is trying to say is "Why not just make Asmodeus a powerful warlord in Shavarath" and then proceed from there? Instead, they tossed in Baator and called it a day. If I had run 4E, that's almost 100% what I would have done.
And that is fine if I had run 4e I would have likely done that as well. But thats not what happened. The Planer structure for Eberron was instead altered to be more like 4e core with several planes being put in that did not used to be there. Baator was just one of the ones retconed in.

It still does not change that it is quite off topic and Eberron and it's planer structure have nothing to do with Moloch or his lore.


Pretty much spot on. There are a lot of ways they could have fit him in a warlord isn shavarath, dress him up as one of the lords of dust (a fairly incompetent one given his metaplot fluff) his own little screwy pocket of khyber called the nine hells that fits the soul gathering demon vrs devil lore he needs... the stuff mentioned in dragon 408 about how to adapt his baggage to fit the setting instead... alll kinds of possible ways to fit him into the setting.

instead they looked at point 1 of 10 on tone in eberron & ignored all of the bolded bit to avoid needing to modify his metaplot to fit the setting
So do you just not like Asmodeus because he does not really have any baggage that ruins the setting or anything. And why would he be an incompetent one given that incompetent has never ever been a word to describe Asmodeus.

Actually never mind answering this. Complain about this in some other thread, preferably your own. Cause you are really starting to annoy me with your inability to let this go. Asmodeus and the Nine Hells got a paragraph in a nine year old book get over it.

[Tetrasodium]

Oh? Color me intrigued. Are we talking a whole UA covering monsters X-X in the MM, or sidebars in MToF for the new monsters?
Found it (http://www.dragonmag.com/5.0/#!/article/116385/103617813) "It really applies to the D&D cosmos as a whole. As an example, we don’t give you any detail on a specific dwarf nation, but dwarves in Dragonlance, dwarves in the Forgotten Realms, dwarves in Greyhawk all get a section."





So do you just not like Asmodeus because he does not really have any baggage that ruins the setting or anything. And why would he be an incompetent one given that incompetent has never ever been a word to describe Asmodeus.

Actually never mind answering this. Complain about this in some other thread, preferably your own. Cause you are really starting to annoy me with your inability to let this go. Asmodeus and the Nine Hells got a paragraph in a nine year old book get over it.


The Baggage you don't see is related to the fact that "demons" (ie devils & demons both) have a different role & presence in eberron on account of the demon overlords being bound in khyber (which ids not just the underdark even though 4e tried to suggest it was). You whine again that this is off topic while trying to claim you are right & it should be dismissed.... but to be kind, your entire premise for that justification is based on an extremely poor understanding of the setting & assumes a lot of incompatible things carry over directly.

It is relevant to the topic because raising these kinds of concerns before mtof is on shelves is important. Your poor understanding of the setting combined with shameless claims that actual examples from 4e were a nonissue shows just how problematic the concern being raised is. To your credit, you finally had to admit that changing the planar structure to a new one was a major change after claiming many times that it was always like that at least. As to asmodeous being an incompetent lord of dust, the only way you can ask that question is to have a complete & total abject lack of understanding about the lords of dust. Given that the LoD are significant players in the grand scheme of things in eberron (especially when talking about demons), your lack of knowledge is even more obvious.

Accept it, you were & are wrong. The concern is both reasonable & justified. Significant changes were made to fit asmodeous' metaplot & his baggage so any whiff that the same treatment might be coming down the pipe is worthy of concern before it gets delivered. Stop claiming otherwise

[Envyus]

The Baggage you don't see is related to the fact that "demons" (ie devils & demons both) have a different role & presence in eberron on account of the demon overlords being bound in khyber (which ids not just the underdark even though 4e tried to suggest it was). You whine again that this is off topic while trying to claim you are right & it should be dismissed.... but to be kind, your entire premise for that justification is based on an extremely poor understanding of the setting & assumes a lot of incompatible things carry over directly.
I have never tried to claim anything about Eberron. I am saying it does not matter because it has nothing to do with this threads topic Moloch.


It is relevant to the topic because raising these kinds of concerns before mtof is on shelves is important. Your poor understanding of the setting combined with shameless claims that actual examples from 4e were a nonissue shows just how problematic the concern being raised is. To your credit, you finally had to admit that changing the planar structure to a new one was a major change after claiming many times that it was always like that at least. As to asmodeous being an incompetent lord of dust, the only way you can ask that question is to have a complete & total abject lack of understanding about the lords of dust. Given that the LoD are significant players in the grand scheme of things in eberron (especially when talking about demons), your lack of knowledge is even more obvious.
I never said Eberron was always like that.
I know the Lords of Dust are major players in the grand scheme of things. Are you trying to say Asmodeus is not in the settings he is involved in? Don't answer this actually because I don't care at this point.


Accept it, you were & are wrong. The concern is both reasonable & justified. Significant changes were made to fit asmodeous' metaplot & his baggage so any whiff that the same treatment might be coming down the pipe is worthy of concern before it gets delivered. Stop claiming otherwise
It is off topic. This is not a general Mtof thread this is a thread about Moloch.

God changes were not made to fit Asmodeus and his metaplot. Changes were made to fit the 4e Cosmology. Asmodeus and Baator being one of those changes. They were part of the changes not the objective of those changes.

There is no wiff that the same treatment is coming. You are just paranoid and obsessive. Of course Asmodeus and the Nine Hells are going to be mentioned this is a book that features a chapter on the Blood War and a bunch of notable Devils. Of which Asmodeus is their King. It has nothing to do with Eberron.

So shut up about it or get out of this thread. This is your final warning. I have lost all patience for this derail.

[Tetrasodium]

I have never tried to claim anything about Eberron. I am saying it does not matter because it has nothing to do with this threads topic Moloch.


I never said Eberron was always like that.
I know the Lords of Dust are major players in the grand scheme of things. Are you trying to say Asmodeus is not in the settings he is involved in? Don't answer this actually because I don't care at this point.


It is off topic. This is not a general Mtof thread this is a thread about Moloch.

God changes were not made to fit Asmodeus and his metaplot. Changes were made to fit the 4e Cosmology. Asmodeus and Baator being one of those changes. They were part of the changes not the objective of those changes.

There is no wiff that the same treatment is coming. You are just paranoid and obsessive. Of course Asmodeus and the Nine Hells are going to be mentioned this is a book that features a chapter on the Blood War and a bunch of notable Devils. Of which Asmodeus is their King. It has nothing to do with Eberron.

So shut up about it or get out of this thread. This is your final warning. I have lost all patience for this derail.

no matter how much you complain that it is irrelevant or off topic, the fact remains that you don't know the setting anywhere near well enough to be making that claim. The vast majority of page 1 of 2 in the pdf (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/dragon/19/DRA19_Moloch.pdf) about moloch is the worrisome bit that has the same kind of stench WotC has shown themselves eager to force into settings it does not belong in. Admitting that you don't know much about the setting is the first step to admitting your entire justification for calling the concern an irrelevant threadjack. Had you simply accepted ignorance about the setting and allowed yourself to consider that you were wrong at any point instead of repeatedly derailing things you might have a point... but instead you keep coming back to claim through ignorance how right you are.

[Envyus]

no matter how much you complain that it is irrelevant or off topic, the fact remains that you don't know the setting anywhere near well enough to be making that claim. The vast majority of page 1 of 2 in the pdf (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/dragon/19/DRA19_Moloch.pdf) about moloch is the worrisome bit that has the same kind of stench WotC has shown themselves eager to force into settings it does not belong in. Admitting that you don't know much about the setting is the first step to admitting your entire justification for calling the concern an irrelevant threadjack. Had you simply accepted ignorance about the setting and allowed yourself to consider that you were wrong at any point instead of repeatedly derailing things you might have a point... but instead you keep coming back to claim through ignorance how right you are.

It's not worrisome at all. That is Molochs lore and has been since 2e.

Now get out, you blew your final chance. You clearly are not listening to what I am saying. :smallfurious:

[EvilAnagram]

Found it (http://www.dragonmag.com/5.0/#!/article/116385/103617813) "It really applies to the D&D cosmos as a whole. As an example, we don’t give you any detail on a specific dwarf nation, but dwarves in Dragonlance, dwarves in the Forgotten Realms, dwarves in Greyhawk all get a section."

Interesting. This actually quells quite a few of my worries about the book.

It's completely off topic, though. This thread is about Moloch.

[Lombra]

...Yes?

Are you trying to argue that Tieflings are not devilish?

I'm not a fan of the loincloth, but it fits his lore as a bruiser who has lost nearly all his ressources.

The rest of his appearance reflects who he is as well, IMO.

"Lost everything" isn't an excuse to look bland. You can convey the fallen prince look even without making it look like just another red guy with horns. Plus, what the hell. Why would a monster like that even wear a loincloth? Why would he care? Find a better excuse to hide his genitals I say.


It's based on his 1e art. Also that is a scourge/Many Tailed Whip not a flail.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j3n-2h6uc1Q/WGdOCRBPyHI/AAAAAAAAKlY/U-sp44aeIqEBmYtywCJKCq1PPTi6QRCGACEw/s1600/archdevilmoloch.jpg

I mean you have seen 1E beholders. Comparing them to how they look now is enough to say that thet can use the concepts of 1E without making it look bland.

Like, the 1E version has more personality for Asmodeus' sake, with that large mouth and eyes that faintly resembles a feline face structure and no petty clothing. This version is a fat red dude with a whip (with many tails, yeah).

[Unoriginal]

An idea that could be fun would be a place where they have carnivals where someone disguised as Moloch is ritually chased out of houses, as a way to banish despair, bad luck and the like.

Could be called "Molochalia" or something like that.



"Lost everything" isn't an excuse to look bland. You can convey the fallen prince look even without making it look like just another red guy with horns. Plus, what the hell. Why would a monster like that even wear a loincloth? Why would he care? Find a better excuse to hide his genitals I say.



I mean you have seen 1E beholders. Comparing them to how they look now is enough to say that thet can use the concepts of 1E without making it look bland.

Like, the 1E version has more personality for Asmodeus' sake, with that large mouth and eyes that faintly resembles a feline face structure and no petty clothing. This version is a fat red dude with a whip (with many tails, yeah).

That is your opinion, and there's no definitive right or wrong for something subjective like that.

Personally I think his appearance fits him, is full of personality, and far from bland.

Though while he's not slim, he's also very muscular.

[Kane0]

What i'd like to see is a Moloch vs Bel throwdown, mano e mano.

[Millstone85]

I don't know if it is with the choice of colors or what, but I feel that 5e art has become more cartoonish and/or animesque since XGtE. And I found the previous style to fit the game more.


The Baggage you don't see is related to the fact that "demons" (ie devils & demons both) have a different role & presence in eberron on account of the demon overlords being bound in khyber (which ids not just the underdark even though 4e tried to suggest it was).In 4e, Khyber was the Underdark and the Elemental Chaos.

Yes, it was first presented as the Underdark, which would then in its deepest reaches open on the Chaos of Khyber.

And per the World Axis cosmology, the Elemental Chaos included the Abyss, so it worked pretty well on the demon side of things.

[Unoriginal]

What i'd like to see is a Moloch vs Bel throwdown, mano e mano.

Once we have the stats for Bel (though I think he's called Bael this time around), I'd gladly do this battle.

I'm curious how they're going to stat Bael, though.


On other news, I think I've found a great boss battle theme for Moloch:


https://youtu.be/ut9kyP1Bsx4

[smcmike]

Personally I think his appearance fits him, is full of personality, and far from bland.

Though while he's not slim, he's also very muscular.

The extreme musculature is part of what makes him bland, for me. Over-the-top superhero muscles on everyone and everything get a bit boring. I’d kind of like him to look more like his statue - rotund, but in a hellish way.

[the_brazenburn]

Maybe Wotc will give him an over the top 80's metal band style spiked leather and/or rhinestone codpiece instead of that cheap loincloth! >:D

I'll get started on this.

My Photoshop is pretty crappy, but I should be able to make a reasonable interpretation of a Möloch Crüe album, if I'm lucky. :smallsmile:

[napoleon_in_rag]

"What sphinx of cement and aluminum bashed open their skulls and ate up their brains and imagination?
Moloch! Solitude! Filth! Ugliness! Ashcans and unobtainable dollars! Children screaming under the stairways! Boys sobbing in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!
Moloch! Moloch! Nightmare of Moloch! Moloch the loveless! Mental Moloch! Moloch the heavy judger of men!
Moloch the incomprehensible prison! Moloch the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Moloch whose buildings are judgment! Moloch the vast stone of war! Moloch the stunned governments!
Moloch whose mind is pure machinery! Moloch whose blood is running money! Moloch whose fingers are ten armies! Moloch whose breast is a cannibal dynamo! Moloch whose ear is a smoking tomb!
Moloch whose eyes are a thousand blind windows! Moloch whose skyscrapers stand in the long streets like endless Jehovahs! Moloch whose factories dream and croak in the fog! Moloch whose smoke-stacks and antennae crown the cities!
Moloch whose love is endless oil and stone! Moloch whose soul is electricity and banks! Moloch whose poverty is the specter of genius! Moloch whose fate is a cloud of sexless hydrogen! Moloch whose name is the Mind!"

Howl - Allen Ginsburg

[smcmike]

Along that vein, you can find some good editorial cartoons by googling “the modern moloch.” Moloch is cars, and we sacrifice thousands to him.

[Unoriginal]

The extreme musculature is part of what makes him bland, for me. Over-the-top superhero muscles on everyone and everything get a bit boring. I’d kind of like him to look more like his statue - rotund, but in a hellish way.

*Shrug* It's not like he's the chiseled hunky lead of the next Marvel movie, either. His build reminds me of an heavyweight boxer or a rugbyman. I can see why you'd rather have him rotund, though.

I like how he has a lot of small scars over his body, too.


Along that vein, you can find some good editorial cartoons by googling “the modern moloch.” Moloch is cars, and we sacrifice thousands to him.

Also this classic:


https://youtu.be/CPNaaogT8fs

[EvilAnagram]

An idea that could be fun would be a place where they have carnivals where someone disguised as Moloch is ritually chased out of houses, as a way to banish despair, bad luck and the like.

Could be called "Molochalia" or something like that.

That would be fun. Having Moloch travel in disguise and run into this town where he's treated as a joke would be fun. Does he pause to vent his fury on the town? Does he take advantage of the celebration to steal some souls?

[Unoriginal]

That would be fun. Having Moloch travel in disguise and run into this town where he's treated as a joke would be fun. Does he pause to vent his fury on the town? Does he take advantage of the celebration to steal some souls?

Dunno, he seems more the kind to set up a ritual to get empowered by the worship/belief people put into the celebration.

It's still celebrating him, after all, even if he's the butt of the joke.

Or maybe a part of the carnival involves leaving offerings to appease "Moloch" and the actual devil takes advantage of that.

Would be even funnier if he used Alter Self to appear as a mortal, then convinced people to let him put on the Moloch costume, to show them how it's done properly.

[Tetrasodium]

Dunno, he seems more the kind to set up a ritual to get empowered by the worship/belief people put into the celebration.

It's still celebrating him, after all, even if he's the butt of the joke.

Or maybe a part of the carnival involves leaving offerings to appease "Moloch" and the actual devil takes advantage of that.

Would be even funnier if he used Alter Self to appear as a mortal, then convinced people to let him put on the Moloch costume, to show them how it's done properly.

the fun holidays are the ones people remember. Not trying to start a debate Christmas(the wildhunt+fertility), Easter(winter is over lets stop the winter rationing &plant crops), etc are all pagan holidays with a bit of christianity over them. Lent, ash wednesday,& the others most people can't remember are all original. A fun holiday would do wonders for the populartity of a demon.



I don't know if it is with the choice of colors or what, but I feel that 5e art has become more cartoonish and/or animesque since XGtE. And I found the previous style to fit the game more.

In 4e, Khyber was the Underdark and the Elemental Chaos.

Yes, it was first presented as the Underdark, which would then in its deepest reaches open on the Chaos of Khyber.

And per the World Axis cosmology, the Elemental Chaos included the Abyss, so it worked pretty well on the demon side of things.

I think that the art is more stepping towards pathfinder's art but trying to distinguish itself as recognizable. calling Khyber the underdark wasn't a problem because of the similarity; it was problematic because khyber was always so much more (prison of some daelkyr & demon overlords, where -native- demons come from, etc) & the underdark is the home of lolth style drow when neither lolth nor that style drow exist there. For a setting you already need to work at breaking mewntal molds for things like drow/demons/"goblins"/alignment/relifgions & deities/ so much more it was an absurdly silly self inflicted wound.




I'll get started on this.

My Photoshop is pretty crappy, but I should be able to make a reasonable interpretation of a Möloch Crüe album, if I'm lucky. :smallsmile:


I was thinking more gwar rhino horn-like spike.

[EvilAnagram]

Dunno, he seems more the kind to set up a ritual to get empowered by the worship/belief people put into the celebration.

It's still celebrating him, after all, even if he's the butt of the joke.

Or maybe a part of the carnival involves leaving offerings to appease "Moloch" and the actual devil takes advantage of that.

Would be even funnier if he used Alter Self to appear as a mortal, then convinced people to let him put on the Moloch costume, to show them how it's done properly.
You know, the more I think about it, the more I think he's the Zoidberg of archdevils. They probably throw out their garbage and see him gnawing on raccoon souls.

[Tetrasodium]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think he's the Zoidberg of archdevils. They probably throw out their garbage and see him gnawing on raccoon souls.

Housewives & maids say a prayer to him on an almost daily basis, sometimes several times in fact. If gnawing on the occasional raccoon soul is enough to get that kind of pr & speed dial for when things have gone really wrong in that regard... spiffy

[strangebloke]

The stats are awesome, the fluff is full of plot hooks, and the art is.... Eh.

I think people are hitting the wrong points about the art. The loin cloth is not the issue, the muscles are fine. Actually I'd say that the art below the neck is great.

His head is weirdly seated on his neck, and it's hard to see how his horns connect, but that isn't the main problem.

It's his stance and the presentation. He's not growling or readying an attack or turning or anything. He's not in hell or accompanied by a legion of devils or standing atop the fallen body of an enemy. He's just sitting there, hanging in whitespace in a loin cloth, smiling at the camera like it was picture day at school and he forgot to wear his pants.

[Unoriginal]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think he's the Zoidberg of archdevils. They probably throw out their garbage and see him gnawing on raccoon souls.


Housewives & maids say a prayer to him on an almost daily basis, sometimes several times in fact. If gnawing on the occasional raccoon soul is enough to get that kind of pr & speed dial for when things have gone really wrong in that regard... spiffy

Don't underestimate him. He had a real chance to beat Asmodeus when he was at his peak, something not even Mephistopheles can boast about, and even now he's a ridiculously powerful threat who can still empower evil cults with Boons and the like.

Yes, he has silly and funny elements, like all the good parts of D&D, but that doesn't mean he's a joke.




It's his stance and the presentation. He's not growling or readying an attack or turning or anything. He's not in hell or accompanied by a legion of devils or standing atop the fallen body of an enemy. He's just sitting there, hanging in whitespace in a loin cloth, smiling at the camera like it was picture day at school and he forgot to wear his pants.

Dunno, the way his legs and arms are positioned, especially the hand holding the scourge, coupled with his facial expression give me the impression of him advancing nonchalantly toward enemies with a "oh, it's gonna be fun" attitude.

But I hope we'll get some arts of him outside of whitespace, too. The one WotC showed involving the Demon Lord of Fungi and the Demon Lord of Oozes is pretty awesome.

[EvilAnagram]

Don't underestimate him. He had a real chance to beat Asmodeus when he was at his peak,

Right, just like how Zoidberg nearly slew Fry in single combat when they fought over the love of a horrible crab monster. The comparison is perfect.

[Envyus]

Once we have the stats for Bel (though I think he's called Bael this time around), I'd gladly do this battle.

I'm curious how they're going to stat Bael, though.


On other news, I think I've found a great boss battle theme for Moloch:


https://youtu.be/ut9kyP1Bsx4

Bael is a different Archdevil then Bel. Bel was a pit fiend introduced late in 2e as an usurper Archdevil who recently took over as Lord of the 1st from Zariel. Bael is a Duke of Hell that serves Mammon. First being stated in the Monster Manual II alongside his master. (Along with other Archdevils like Mephisopheles, and Moloch to name a few.)

[Unoriginal]

Bael is a different Archdevil then Bel. Bel was a pit fiend introduced late in 2e as an usurper Archdevil who recently took over as Lord of the 1st from Zariel. Bael is a Duke of Hell that serves Mammon. First being stated in the Monster Manual II alongside his master. (Along with other Archdevils like Mephisopheles, and Moloch to name a few.)

Uh. Well, you learn new things every day. I thought they just changed the spelling."Baal" is basically the Fiendish equivalent of "John", it seems.

Wonder if we're going to see Martinet, then.

[Envyus]

Uh. Well, you learn new things every day. I thought they just changed the spelling."Baal" is basically the Fiendish equivalent of "John", it seems.

Wonder if we're going to see Martinet, then.

More or less the number of fiends with B names like that is astonding. Baal, Bael, Bale, Bel, Ba'al, Baalzebul, Beelzebub, Baalzephon, Baʿal Zaphon, Belphegor, Baalberith, Belberith and Lots more I don't feel like checking. As a Guide to Hell says



Devils are by nature deceptive. One of the most common
ways in which they muddy the waters of scholarship is
by the use of several different names. Because it is a
difficult enough job to gather reliable information on
devils, many historians of the diabolic mistakenly list
each name as a separate devil. Devils compound this
confusion by using taking names that sound very similar
to those of existing devils. When an obscure name
is encountered, it’s difficult to tell if it is a misspelled
version of an existing name, a new name for an old
devil, or an entirely new devil.
Where possible, multiple names have been listed
for pertinent personalities. The confusion is worst for
players and Dungeon Masters who switched over
from the original edition AD&D game to the
Planescape campaign setting, which tends to use different
names for many older devils. DMs are encouraged
to use the names they prefer, since one is as good
as the next. They are also encouraged to use the Name
Game to confuse their players, who don’t have a
handy resource like this one to tell them who is who.

[MrStabby]

Moloch seems pretty cool.

Firstly this guy has character, he is a bit pathetic, a bit arrogant but he has the intellect to back it up. He has motivations that players can associate with. He is the embodiment of tragedy and makes for a fantastic (if very dangerous) NPC.

Mechanically I think he is pretty awesome as well. He is pitched just right such that he can be taken on as a deadly battle by a lot of high level parties without having to really scale up to level 17+. At this level he is a total badass but also as a fiend stripped of much of his power he still hints at the devils out there with even greater power.

Spell list is great - at will animate dead means he should never be alone, stinking cloud as a legendary action will make taking him down go a lot slower (DC 21 save) as will his fear effects. Not that many characters are strong at both wisdom AND constitution saves. Regeneration is particularly brutal when you can slow down the rate at which a party does damage to him with these spells. He might be a bit unfair to some parties - fly can be exceptionally powerful if the party is forced to use ranged attacks and isn't great at them. Swarming him with minions is also going to be tough thanks to at-will 9d6 fire damage in a cone.

His saves are awesome - really good chance of passing everything except int saves and Str saves (and Str at +8 with advantage is no joke either). How many players can throw spells needing an Int save? With legendary resistance eating up most of these it is going to be a tough fight. Spells that don't use a save? Wall of force for example? Well teleport at will deals with that.

When it comes to finishing off the party this guy is able to do 150 damage per turn if he uses his legendary actions for attacks. If particular interest is the fact that this guy uses the whip for these attacks - with a DC24 strength save to avoid being pulled. If the DM is willing to play round initiative this can involve pulling the party into a stinking cloud effect or pulling them into a place where a stinking cloud is going to drop (Moloch is immune to poison so doesn't really care about the cloud himself).

Interestingly this guy can't see through magical darkness and just has standard darkvision. With passive perception of 21 a party with pass without trace and invisibility might be able to make short work of him but it would be a huge risk. I think the better option might be to use a Gate spell and pull him into a deathtrap. To take him down you will need to do something to stop the teleportation I think - 510 ft per cycle movement will get him into a position where he can heal up pretty effectively.

I want to run something like this in one of my games - looks pretty fun with a lot of abilities coming together to make a really tough combat.

[Unoriginal]

If he's flying above the PCs, he can pull them up in the air then let them fall for additional damage.

Also good to note Moloch got the maximum proficiency bonus. Those who expect him to be nothing but an hulking brute going through enenies thanks to sheer physical might will be surprised by how skilled he is.

It makes me wonder if he could defeat Demon Lord Gra'azt despite the difference in CR.

In any case, players better be careful Moloch doesn't get his hand on too many magic items. He's already a beast, but he only needs a few gizmos to be a best.

[EvilAnagram]

He's already a beast, but he only needs a few gizmos to be a best.
Don't you mean the Beast (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/La_Bête_de_la_Mer.jpg/1200px-La_Bête_de_la_Mer.jpg)?

[MrStabby]

Don't you mean the Beast (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/La_Bête_de_la_Mer.jpg/1200px-La_Bête_de_la_Mer.jpg)?

Huh, I had always wondered how you would divide 10 horns among 7 heads. I guess that works.

[Unoriginal]

Don't you mean the Beast (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/La_Bête_de_la_Mer.jpg/1200px-La_Bête_de_la_Mer.jpg)?

The Beast?


https://youtu.be/wAzVkUpgwGc

[Envyus]

I think the better option might be to use a Gate spell and pull him into a deathtrap.


This is not actually something you can do. Archdevils and Demon Lords don't use their true names. Gate requires a Planer Being's true name to summon them.

So the only way to pull Moloch into a death trap is to find out his true name and summon him that way.

[MrStabby]

This is not actually something you can do. Archdevils and Demon Lords don't use their true names. Gate requires a Planer Being's true name to summon them.

So the only way to pull Moloch into a death trap is to find out his true name and summon him that way.

I think this is a hangover from previous editions. You just need to know their name. Using dictionary.com:

Name is: "a word or set of words by which a person or thing is known, addressed, or referred to."

If this guy is referred to most commonly as Moloch then it seems to fit the definition of "name". He isn't a planar ruler or deity so seems fine.

[Envyus]

I think this is a hangover from previous editions. You just need to know their name. Using dictionary.com:

Name is: "a word or set of words by which a person or thing is known, addressed, or referred to."

If this guy is referred to most commonly as Moloch then it seems to fit the definition of "name". He isn't a planar ruler or deity so seems fine.

Nope. You need the true name. Aliases don't work which is what devil Common names are. The reason for True Names is so that major devils and such can't just be easily summoned by Gate and other spells like it.


When you cast this spell, you can speak the name of a specific creature (a pseudonym, title, or nickname doesn't work).


Though devils all have common names, every devil above a lemure in station also has a true name that it keeps secret. A devil can be forced to disclose its true name if charmed, and ancient scrolls and tomes are said to exist that list the true names of certain devils.

A mortal who learns a devil’s true name can use powerful summoning magic to call the devil from the Nine Hells and bind it into service. Binding can also be accomplished with the help of a devil talisman. Each of these ancient relics is inscribed with the true name of a devil it controls, and was bathed in the blood of a worthy sacrifice — typically someone the creator loved — when crafted.

However it is summoned, a devil brought to the Material Plane typically resents being pressed into service. However, the devil seizes every opportunity to corrupt its summoner so that the summoner’s soul ends up in the Nine Hells. Only imps are truly content to be summoned, and they easily commit to serving a summoner as a familiar, but they still do their utmost to corrupt those who summon them.

[DracoKnight]

Nope. You need the true name. Aliases don't work which is what devil Common names are. The reason for True Names is so that major devils and such can't just be easily summoned by Gate and other spells like it.

The gate spell never calls out true names. You need their name. Moloch would work for the purposes of this spell, whereas Bone Devil or Pit Fiend would not work.

[Unoriginal]

The gate spell never calls out true names. You need their name. Moloch would work for the purposes of this spell, whereas Bone Devil or Pit Fiend would not work.

Moloch is a pseudonyme, not his actual name.

[MrStabby]

Moloch is a pseudonyme, not his actual name.

It's the name on the stat block and I can see nothing in the text that says it is a pseudonym.


It is just one of those archaic things that has gone by the wayside now.

[Unoriginal]

It's the name on the stat block and I can see nothing in the text that says it is a pseudonym.


It is just one of those archaic things that has gone by the wayside now.

No, it's not "one of those archaic things that has gone by the wayside now". Your condescencion won't make it true.

The MM *explicitly* says that Devils don't use their real names, and that what they're usually called is a nom de plume to avoid anyone using their true name against them.


Several spells involves using the true name of a Fiend for that exact purpose, do you really think they'd be dumb enough to let it be public knowledge?

[Kane0]

If they were, they deserve everything that happens to them :P

[Unoriginal]

If they were, they deserve everything that happens to them :P

Rule of thumb: any plan that requires a superhumanly intelligent and nearly as wise as the wisest humanoid to act in a fantastically dumb manner doesn't work.

[MrStabby]

No, it's not "one of those archaic things that has gone by the wayside now". Your condescencion won't make it true.

The MM *explicitly* says that Devils don't use their real names, and that what they're usually called is a nom de plume to avoid anyone using their true name against them.


Several spells involves using the true name of a Fiend for that exact purpose, do you really think they'd be dumb enough to let it be public knowledge?

There is absolutely nothing I can find in Moloch's entry that even references this at all. Now OTHER fiends in other books might have other rules for those other creatures -I feel we should use Moloch's rules for Moloch though. I also think that "what they are usually called" is a pretty fine definition of what a "name" is.

Out of interest what spells are you referencing that require a true name? I did a search for "true name" in the 5th edition spells but couldn't find anything.

[Unoriginal]

There is absolutely nothing I can find in Moloch's entry that even references this at all.

It's in the MM entry on Devils, it doesn't need to be repeated for each Devil.



Now OTHER fiends in other books might have other rules for those other creatures -I feel we should use Moloch's rules for Moloch though.

That's pure nonsense. You can't seriously claim that the rules for a type of creatures don't apply to an individual who belongs to that type simply because they're an individual. The description of Wakanga O'tamu in ToA doesn't precise he needs to eat to survive, but since he is an human and has no special rules about it, one can infer that he does need to eat.



I also think that "what they are usually called" is a pretty fine definition of what a "name" is.

And now you're just ressorting to sophism. First, the Gate spell specifically demand to use the real name.

Second, it's not because you're usually called something that it is your real or legal name. People on this forum might call you MrStabby, and people worldwide might refer to Lady Gaga as her stage name, but both are still pseudonymes.

I'm all for people choosing a new name if they don't want the one assigned to them, but magic doesn't care.



Out of interest what spells are you referencing that require a true name? I did a search for "true name" in the 5th edition spells but couldn't find anything.

Aside from Gate? The spell Infernal Calling is much stronger if you use the Devil's true name, and the same for the spell Summon Greater Demon (though obviously it's a Demon's true name that is used).

Infernal Calling is even stronger if you use the Devil's talisman, which requires said Devil's true name.

[EvilAnagram]

There is absolutely nothing I can find in Moloch's entry that even references this at all. Now OTHER fiends in other books might have other rules for those other creatures -I feel we should use Moloch's rules for Moloch though. I also think that "what they are usually called" is a pretty fine definition of what a "name" is.

Out of interest what spells are you referencing that require a true name? I did a search for "true name" in the 5th edition spells but couldn't find anything.

Someone went through the trouble of posting the exact text in the MM that discusses devils and true names, and yet you ignore it!

According to the MM, devils keep their true names hidden so that people can't summon them willy nilly. Moloch is a devil. Therefore, he has a true name he keeps hidden to keep people from summoning him willy nilly.

[smcmike]

Someone went through the trouble of posting the exact text in the MM that discusses devils and true names, and yet you ignore it!

According to the MM, devils keep their true names hidden so that people can't summon them willy nilly. Moloch is a devil. Therefore, he has a true name he keeps hidden to keep people from summoning him willy nilly.

Kind of makes me want to run a long and deadly serious adventure searching for his True Name, eventually finding an ancient scroll at the bottom of a vine-covered temple, and opening it up to reveal the answer: Moloch McMolochFace

[Millstone85]

This makes me wonder: Is Lolth's true name Araushnee, or does she have an even more secret one?

[Pronounceable]

Considering how these things usually go, Moloch's true name will prolly turn out to be Muloch or Melloch or something equally "creative".

[Unoriginal]

This makes me wonder: Is Lolth's true name Araushnee, or does she have an even more secret one?

The "even more secret one" option, certainly. The true name of a god is not something that was common knowledge at any point.

[MrStabby]

Someone went through the trouble of posting the exact text in the MM that discusses devils and true names, and yet you ignore it!

According to the MM, devils keep their true names hidden so that people can't summon them willy nilly. Moloch is a devil. Therefore, he has a true name he keeps hidden to keep people from summoning him willy nilly.

I ignored it because it isn't relevant. Relevant information on a monster entry is found in the entry for that monster, not in some other entry.

I thought I had made it clear, not really sure how to Communicate It Better.

If people want to post stat blocks or text for other monsters they can. Up to them- if it is interesting I might even read it. Is Moloch like other devils? Well where would I look to find out? Probably in his text. Nothing there.

Is Moloch unlike other fiends? Has being dispossessed of his power made a difference? Maybe, his text didn't explicitly say.

Should we also give him devils sight just because we call him a devil?

[smcmike]

I ignored it because it isn't relevant. Relevant information on a monster entry is found in the entry for that monster, not in some other entry.

I thought I had made it clear, not really sure how to Communicate It Better.

If people want to post stat blocks or text for other monsters they can. Up to them- if it is interesting I might even read it. Is Moloch like other devils? Well where would I look to find out? Probably in his text. Nothing there.

Is Moloch unlike other fiends? Has being dispossessed of his power made a difference? Maybe, his text didn't explicitly say.

Should we also give him devils sight just because we call him a devil?

This is the silliest argument I’ve seen in a while.

[Unoriginal]

This is the silliest argument I’ve seen in a while.

This is the silliest argument I've seen on this forum.


I ignored it because it isn't relevant. Relevant information on a monster entry is found in the entry for that monster, not in some other entry.

That's even more ridiculous.

You're basically claiming that Devils in books published after the MM are not subjected to the rules of the Devils. It's like claiming that Dwarf Bandit NPCs don't have the Dwarf racial modifiers because the Dwarf racial modifiers are in the PHB and the Bandit NPC statblock are in the MM.


I thought I had made it clear, not really sure how to Communicate It Better.

You're clear about what your point is, it's just your point is utter nonsense.



If people want to post stat blocks or text for other monsters they can. Up to them- if it is interesting I might even read it. Is Moloch like other devils? Well where would I look to find out? Probably in his text. Nothing there.

Is Moloch unlike other fiends? Has being dispossessed of his power made a difference? Maybe, his text didn't explicitly say.

The statblock calls Moloch a Fiend (devil), which means he's subjected to the rules about Devils. If he was special in that regard, the entry would mention it. You don't have to precise when something follow the norms, you precise when it deviates from them



Should we also give him devils sight just because we call him a devil?

No, because there is no rules nor lore saying all Devils have Devil's Sight. It's not inherent part of the "Devil" nature.

It's nice you ignored my post showing how wrong you were about true names, too.

[JackPhoenix]

This is the silliest argument I've seen on this forum.

Hey now, that can't be true. I've seen you post in the-troll-who-shall-not-be-named-because-he-was-banned-about-fifty-times-by-now's* threads.

*that actualy may or may not be his true name

[Unoriginal]

Hey now, that can't be true. I've seen you post in the-troll-who-shall-not-be-named-because-he-was-banned-about-fifty-times-by-now's* threads.

*that actualy may or may not be his true name

I have indeed been in those threads, and I still maintain the statement you've quoted.

[GlenSmash!]

I have indeed been in those threads, and I still maintain the statement you've quoted.

Bro, you can't go around insulting my Nameless Argument like that.

Here's all my tons of sweet emo artwork and arguments that preemptively cancel other arguments about why my argument is the silliest

[Envyus]

I ignored it because it isn't relevant. Relevant information on a monster entry is found in the entry for that monster, not in some other entry.

I thought I had made it clear, not really sure how to Communicate It Better.

If people want to post stat blocks or text for other monsters they can. Up to them- if it is interesting I might even read it. Is Moloch like other devils? Well where would I look to find out? Probably in his text. Nothing there.

Is Moloch unlike other fiends? Has being dispossessed of his power made a difference? Maybe, his text didn't explicitly say.

Should we also give him devils sight just because we call him a devil?

:smallsigh: This is indeed a pathetic and silly argument.

[EvilAnagram]

I ignored it because it isn't relevant. Relevant information on a monster entry is found in the entry for that monster, not in some other entry.
Do stop lights apply to you when you're driving if they don't address you by name? Are you loud in libraries because the quiet signs don't say, "MrStabby," on them? Do you feel entitled to poach because no official has specifically asked you not to?

Or do you comprehend that rules of behavior can encompass groups of individuals without calling out a specific individual?

If the latter, then why would behavior described in official material as being universally performed by all devils not be embraced by a particularly vulnerable, but powerful archdevil?

[strangebloke]

Do stop lights apply to you when you're driving if they don't address you by name? Are you loud in libraries because the quiet signs don't say, "MrStabby," on them? Do you feel entitled to poach because no official has specifically asked you not to?

Or do you comprehend that rules of behavior can encompass groups of individuals without calling out a specific individual?

If the latter, then why would behavior described in official material as being universally performed by all devils not be embraced by a particularly vulnerable, but powerful archdevil?

Notably, in the nine hells he is an imp, the entry for which is mere pages from the rule in question.

[Envyus]

Speaking of Devils and true names. Mephistopheles' true name appears to be "Thra'axfyl the Ambitious" So likely Moloch's true name would be similar in being "Name" the "Adjective"

[JackPhoenix]

Speaking of Devils and true names. Mephistopheles' true name appears to be "Thra'axfyl the Ambitious" So likely Moloch's true name would be similar in being "Name" the "Adjective"

Source? I'm not doubting your worlds, just wonder if there's more interesting info whenever that came from.

[MadBear]

Source? I'm not doubting your worlds, just wonder if there's more interesting info whenever that came from.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/True_name

my guess anyway

[Kane0]

That source is from Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark. I think that qualifies as 'apocryphal', based on the whole knower of X thing.

[Envyus]

That source is from Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark. I think that qualifies as 'apocryphal', based on the whole knower of X thing.

Yeah you don't have to take it as canon. Still it's a cool way of doing true names.