Rune Scribe and Fighting Styles, Maximizing Knockdown

[malloc]

I was reading the Rune Scribe today and was (obviously) drawn to the feature that allows for saveless knockdowns. I decided to poke around and see what the highest knockdown chance was that I could find.

The Rune Scribe ability "Crushing Brand" can be applied to any weapon that deals bludgeoning damage. On a maximum damage die roll, it knocks the target prone. No save.

The Fighting Style "Great Weapon Fighting" lets you reroll a 1 or a 2.

The Feat "Savage Attacker" lets you reroll the damage dice once.

Now the best odds of getting maximum on a die roll are with the smallest damage die, and I don't see any d3's or d2's out there for weapons, so d4 it is. Club is the obvious choice, but if your DM rules that it doesn't count as a two handed weapon for whatever reason, any improvised weapon wielded in 1 or 2 hands can deal a d4 bludgeoning damage. So go to town with your neighbor's couch.



Knockdown occurs only on the maximum die result (4), which happens 25% of the time. The other 75% of the time we are rerolling in a variety of ways:
50% of the time, we are rerolling (1 or 2) for Great Weapon Fighting, which yields a 4 25% of the time (.5*.25 = .125).
The remainder of the time, we are rerolling on Savage Attacker (.25+.5*.75 = .625), which does the same math again.

Success on the first die is .375, which means failure is .625. The probability of each die succeeding individually is the same. The check only fails if BOTH dice fail, hence p(success) = 1-.625^2, or .609.

So success is .25+.25*.5+.625*.375 = 60.9%
And failure is .625*.625 = 39.1%



#1, is my math right? Ended up with about 61%.

#2, can you think of any ways to make the knockdown chance higher? Sadly, no TWF as you can only have one instance up at a time.

#3, how viable does this look to you in a mid level game (4-8 ish)? Can this go some distance towards replacing the old spiked chain fighters of yore? Considering stacking this on Battle Master with the Trip Attack for maximum trip.

[Consensus]

I don't have anything to add mechanically but I love this concept.
GM: What kinda character are you playing?
Me: A guy with a baseball bat who beats people to the ground

[malloc]

I don't have anything to add mechanically but I love this concept.
GM: What kinda character are you playing?
Me: A guy with a baseball bat who beats people to the ground


https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/9/91/Red_Scout.png

[malloc]

Nobody has any thoughts on this? That's disappointing.

[JNAProductions]

Let me do the math myself.

1/4 chance of rolling a 4 outright.
1/2*1/4 chance of rolling a 1 or a 2 into a 4, for 1/8 chance.
Add them together, you get a 3/8 chance.

But, Savage Attacker basically gives you advantage on (one) damage roll. So, 1-3/8=5/8, (5/8)2=25/64, 1-25/64=39/64.

39/64=.609375, or about 61%.

My math says your math is good!

[Sicarius Victis]

The GWF fighting style requires the weapon wielded to have the versatile or two-handed property, which the club has neither of. The closest you could get would be the greatclub, which does 1d8 damage and has the two-handed property.

[JNAProductions]

The GWF fighting style requires the weapon wielded to have the versatile or two-handed property, which the club has neither of. The closest you could get would be the greatclub, which does 1d8 damage and has the two-handed property.

Which is why they're talking about using an improvised, two-handing bludgeoning tool. Probably need Tavern Brawler to get proficiency in that.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

What are the odds on a maul (2d6) with the great weapon style rerolls, and savage attacker?

[JNAProductions]

What are the odds on a maul (2d6) with the great weapon style rerolls, and savage attacker?

Low. You'd have to roll 2 6s to get that effect, not just one.

[Maxilian]

Nobody has any thoughts on this? That's disappointing.

Played this character, was really fun, mostly because the character attitude was really cool (He saw himself as the avatar of the goddess of beauty and perfection) and he used a big statue of himself as his improvised weapon (of course, the statue was made by him, i mean... who can replicate the image of perfection but perfection itself?)

[malloc]

Let me do the math myself.

1/4 chance of rolling a 4 outright.
1/2*1/4 chance of rolling a 1 or a 2 into a 4, for 1/8 chance.
Add them together, you get a 3/8 chance.

But, Savage Attacker basically gives you advantage on (one) damage roll. So, 1-3/8=5/8, (5/8)2=25/64, 1-25/64=39/64.

39/64=.609375, or about 61%.

My math says your math is good!

Thanks for the math check!


Played this character, was really fun, mostly because the character attitude was really cool (He saw himself as the avatar of the goddess of beauty and perfection) and he used a big statue of himself as his improvised weapon (of course, the statue was made by him, i mean... who can replicate the image of perfection but perfection itself?)

Ha. That's pretty good, actually.

This begs the question, what class continuation do you see working well for this style of combat? Fighter seems the most obvious, if only for action surge and a good scaling iterative attack path. Can anyone think of a better build approach?

[xyianth]

Sadly, I don't think this works as you have it laid out by RAW. Improvised weapons have no weapon properties and Great Weapon Fighting only applies if the weapon has either the two-handed or versatile property.

That said, there is a way to make it work, but it is a little more complicated. You have to wield a quarterstaff with two hands and have at least 1 level of Monk. (but no more than 4 levels) This lets you wield a weapon with the versatile property in two hands and use Martial Arts to change the damage die to 1d4. It also lets you use dexterity instead of strength, which makes qualifying for Rune Scribe easier.

Because you can use this with a quarterstaff you can also apply Polearm Master and Sentinel feats to maximize the number of 1d4+dex attacks and add speed reduction to opportunity attacks, making it impossible to stand up after being knocked prone.

Since you mentioned replacing the spiked chain fighters, I'll also add a way to extend your reach to 15'. If you dip 1 level as a Mystic, you can learn the Giant Growth discipline. While focused on it, you gain +5' reach. If you attain 3rd level as a Ranger, you can become a Primeval Guardian. At-will as a bonus action you can transform and increase your reach by a further 5'. The consequence is your movement speed becomes 5'. To fix this, dip 1 level as an Artificer(Alchemist) and pick up the Swift Step Draught. You can use this as a bonus action after you have transformed to extend your speed by 20', giving you 25' speed while transformed.

To summarize:

1 level dip as a Monk for Martial Arts (changes quarterstaff to dex and 1d4 damage die)
1 level dip as Fighter for Great Weapon Fighting style (allows reroll of 1s and 2s)
1 level dip as Mystic (any type) for Giant Growth discipline (+5' reach)
1 level dip as Artificer (Alchemist) for Swift Step Draught (+20' speed as a bonus action for 1 minute duration)
1 level dip as Rune Scribe (Orb of the Stein Rune) for Crushing Brand (ignore resistance/immunity with bludgeoning and on max damage roll knock prone without save)
3 levels as a Ranger (Primeval Guardian) for Guardian Transformation (+5' reach)
Savage Attacker feat (extra reroll of weapon damage every turn)
Polearm Master feat (bonus action 1d4 attack + provoke OAs on entering reach)
Sentinel feat (provoke OAs on leaving reach even with disengage + reduce speed to 0 on hit with OA)


The above requires you to have at least a 13 in Int and Wis, and maximized Dex. If I were building this, I'd use the following build:

Race: Human(variant)
Build: Monk 1/Ranger 3/Fighter 1/Rune Scribe 1/Ranger +2/Mystic 1/Artificer 1/Ranger +10
Feats: Polearm Master[@ level 1], Sentinel[@ level 7], Savage Attacker[@ level 13]

That is as close to a spiked chain fighter of yore as I can make in 5e.

[Maxilian]

Sadly, I don't think this works as you have it laid out by RAW. Improvised weapons have no weapon properties and Great Weapon Fighting only applies if the weapon has either the two-handed or versatile property.

That said, there is a way to make it work, but it is a little more complicated. You have to wield a quarterstaff with two hands and have at least 1 level of Monk. (but no more than 4 levels) This lets you wield a weapon with the versatile property in two hands and use Martial Arts to change the damage die to 1d4. It also lets you use dexterity instead of strength, which makes qualifying for Rune Scribe easier.

Because you can use this with a quarterstaff you can also apply Polearm Master and Sentinel feats to maximize the number of 1d4+dex attacks and add speed reduction to opportunity attacks, making it impossible to stand up after being knocked prone.

Since you mentioned replacing the spiked chain fighters, I'll also add a way to extend your reach to 15'. If you dip 1 level as a Mystic, you can learn the Giant Growth discipline. While focused on it, you gain +5' reach. If you attain 3rd level as a Ranger, you can become a Primeval Guardian. At-will as a bonus action you can transform and increase your reach by a further 5'. The consequence is your movement speed becomes 5'. To fix this, dip 1 level as an Artificer(Alchemist) and pick up the Swift Step Draught. You can use this as a bonus action after you have transformed to extend your speed by 20', giving you 25' speed while transformed.

To summarize:

1 level dip as a Monk for Martial Arts (changes quarterstaff to dex and 1d4 damage die)
1 level dip as Fighter for Great Weapon Fighting style (allows reroll of 1s and 2s)
1 level dip as Mystic (any type) for Giant Growth discipline (+5' reach)
1 level dip as Artificer (Alchemist) for Swift Step Draught (+20' speed as a bonus action for 1 minute duration)
1 level dip as Rune Scribe (Orb of the Stein Rune) for Crushing Brand (ignore resistance/immunity with bludgeoning and on max damage roll knock prone without save)
3 levels as a Ranger (Primeval Guardian) for Guardian Transformation (+5' reach)
Savage Attacker feat (extra reroll of weapon damage every turn)
Polearm Master feat (bonus action 1d4 attack + provoke OAs on entering reach)
Sentinel feat (provoke OAs on leaving reach even with disengage + reduce speed to 0 on hit with OA)


The above requires you to have at least a 13 in Int and Wis, and maximized Dex. If I were building this, I'd use the following build:

Race: Human(variant)
Build: Monk 1/Ranger 3/Fighter 1/Rune Scribe 1/Ranger +2/Mystic 1/Artificer 1/Ranger +10
Feats: Polearm Master[@ level 1], Sentinel[@ level 7], Savage Attacker[@ level 13]

That is as close to a spiked chain fighter of yore as I can make in 5e.

A couple of things:

1- you are right, no improvised weapon have properties (i knew i didnt took the 2handed fs for a reason) -went with a shield as improvised weapon (only count as a iw while doing the attack)

2- an interesting way to solve the problem with improvised weapon, even more cause it give you access to the polearm master feat (with an extra bonus action attack), sadly this alone would make the bonus action monk attack redundant

3- i think you are sacrificing way too much for some extra reach (you want more chances to attack, no more range) and the way you are building it youre pushing extra attack too much

So going with your points, it may be better to get 1 monk, 6 fighter, then you could push to monk 4 and then continue fighter or just leave it at 1 monk and go full fighter. (Pick rune master as soon as you can, waiting for lvl 7 is a good idea to not push back extra attack)

For subclasses, fighter could go with battle master for the sake of usibg riposte when someone misses a melee attack against you (more chance to push them prone, but if you have sentinel, you may not want that many things based on your reaction)

If you dont go with the monk for polearm master, then cavalier is a great option for the bonus action attack (even more in a melee heavy party)

Another nice option for someone who doesnt go monk is EK cause it let you use weapon cantrips, letting your damg scale even though you have such a small damage dice ( also prone works great with booming blade) -you eventually get haste and get a familiar that can give you adv to 1 attack per turn-

For monk subclass, there isnt much of a gain, best option is shadow for the sake of the spells (darkness to deny an enemy adv when you cant get adv or to fight against disadv on your attacks, pass without trace for sneak and silence for casters)

The monk option means that you wont be taking the feat based on improvised weapons so no bonus action grapple for you.

[xyianth]

3- i think you are sacrificing way too much for some extra reach (you want more chances to attack, no more range) and the way you are building it youre pushing extra attack too much

It's all relative I guess. Having polearm mastery at 1st level means you have 2 attacks at level 1. Getting extra attack by 8th level means you are getting a third attack 3 levels early. The main reason I went for the increased range is because the whole point of spiked chain fighters in 3.5 was the large zone denial capability they had. If you prefer going for more attacks instead, that works too.

The one thing 5e does lack is the equivalent of combat reflexes to truly make focusing on opportunity attacks viable. That said, I love the concept of rune scribe and am always looking for ways to highlight it in builds. This is going right next to my Rogue using the Opal of the Ild Rune's Flame Brand and Flame Stoker to enable rerolling all sneak attack damage and using the highest result.

[Maxilian]

It's all relative I guess. Having polearm mastery at 1st level means you have 2 attacks at level 1. Getting extra attack by 8th level means you are getting a third attack 3 levels early. The main reason I went for the increased range is because the whole point of spiked chain fighters in 3.5 was the large zone denial capability they had. If you prefer going for more attacks instead, that works too.

The one thing 5e does lack is the equivalent of combat reflexes to truly make focusing on opportunity attacks viable. That said, I love the concept of rune scribe and am always looking for ways to highlight it in builds. This is going right next to my Rogue using the Opal of the Ild Rune's Flame Brand and Flame Stoker to enable rerolling all sneak attack damage and using the highest result.

You have to take in mind your low damage output, so you have to compensate somehow, also the class combo that you want would force you to have certain stats at at least 13 (not really a problem as its Fex, wis and int, 2 of those you need regardless), also with how you separated the class and Asis you are going to always have your main stas at max 16, and you want the character not to feel lack luster compared to the rest of the party (does not have to be as strong as the other party members though), you are also pushing some of the character theme progression back (like savage attacker).

Btw for a reach character you could take bugbear (5 extra reach on your turn) and theres an UA that have a fighting style that give you unlimeted OA (Light, dark, underdark! Its the UA).

Btw the Rogue mc into rune master for reroll on sneak attack is a nice idea

[xyianth]

You have to take in mind your low damage output, so you have to compensate somehow, also the class combo that you want would force you to have certain stats at at least 13 (not really a problem as its Fex, wis and int, 2 of those you need regardless), also with how you separated the class and Asis you are going to always have your main stas at max 16, and you want the character not to feel lack luster compared to the rest of the party (does not have to be as strong as the other party members though), you are also pushing some of the character theme progression back (like savage attacker).

Btw for a reach character you could take bugbear (5 extra reach on your turn) and theres an UA that have a fighting style that give you unlimeted OA (Light, dark, underdark! Its the UA).

Btw the Rogue mc into rune master for reroll on sneak attack is a nice idea

Thanks for the fighting style reference, it fits well with the character theme. As far as damage output goes, I did some quick calculations and the damage difference varies by level but it is really not that much lower. (the extra 1d6 from Piercing Thorns helps) You also have to remember that damage isn't really the point of a character like this, zone denial is. There are certainly better ways to build it if damage output is your goal. Generally, I was building this character to control and disable enemies so that the rest of the party can defeat them.

As for being stuck with a 16 dex, this is only true if you use point buy or standard array. (most games seem to prefer rolling 4d6 drop lowest in my experience) That said, I'm currently playing a rogue character in a game that rolled quite poorly and is using a 16 dex in a party full of players with 20s for their main attack stat. I don't really notice the gap all that much. On paper, it should be a 10% difference, but we all roll horribly often enough that I don't really stand out.

The stat requirements aren't that much of a stretch since you need monk, fighter, and rune scribe just to pull off the main trick anyway. That alone requires Dex, Int, and Wis to be 13+. Regardless, the concept of this character is very cool, and a build like monk 1/fighter 5/rune scribe 1/X would work just fine too.

Edit: Just thought of a way to build this character that I thought I'd share:

Race: Variant Human
Build: Monk 1/Eldritch Knight Fighter 4/Rune Scribe 1/Primeval Guardian Ranger 4/Mystic(any) 8/X 2
ASIs: Polearm Master[1], Savage Attacker[5], War Caster[10], +2 Dex[14], +2 Dex[18]
Fighting Styles: Martial Arts[1], Great Weapon Fighting[2], Tunnel Fighter[8]
Cantrips: Booming Blade[4], 1 other
Spells: Find Familiar, 3 others(EK) + entangle, 3 others(Ranger)
Disciplines: Giant Growth, Mastery of Force, 2-4 others(depending on Mystic Order chosen)
Talents: any 2
Stat Requirements: 13 Int, 13 Wis, Maximize Dex
Skills: any 6-8(depending on Mystic Order chosen)

You trade away Extra Attack for Booming Blade use. Tunnel Fighter lets you trade your bonus action for unlimited OAs. (which are provoked on entry to reach thanks to Polearm Master) Each OA can cause knockdown via the Rune Scribe's Crushing Brand. Every OA you make counts as a new turn, so Piercing Thorns and Potent Psionics both add damage to every one. Any creature that is knocked prone can either crawl (double movement cost) or stand up. (half base movement cost) Both options count as willingly moving 5' so they trigger Booming Blade's extra damage and enable you to make an OA as a reaction per Tunnel Fighter. War Caster lets you replace that OA with Booming Blade. (I don't think you can use Booming Blade on your free OAs from Tunnel Fighter by RAW though, but a lenient DM might allow it) Your familiar helps you get advantage on your Booming Blade attack during your turn. Your reach is 15' thanks to Giant Growth discipline and Guardian Transformation. You can use Giant Growth's powers to extend reach and damage further by expending psi points. Use Inertial Armor for an AC of 19. This should let you keep up with damage as Booming Blade scales and you can regularly hit 1 creature with it twice per round, in addition to hitting as many other creatures that get within 15' of you. Overall, I think it would be a fun and effective character providing area denial, single target lockdown, and whatever other abilities you want to bring from your various skills, spells, talents, and disciplines.