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Macrovore
2007-09-03, 12:19 AM
This has crossed my mind a lot ever since I started playing DnD (in 3.5), and has recently resurfaced: I'd like to make a completely modular way to build constructs.

No simple "iron golems" or "shield guardians." I want it to be modular.
For example, you pick a size and general shape, say Large Humanoid. Based on the size, shape, it has certain ability scores, minimum hit dice, natural armor, and a base cost. Then, you can add any other stuff, like more HD, better attacks, or weapon proficiency, or better armor, better intelligence and senses, or special attacks like breath weapons or spike shooters or laser eyes, or even space to sit in it and pilot it like a mecha. You should also be able to make a base material, like clay, mud, iron, or stone. All of these extra things cost certain amounts, so you could have complete control over how much your construct costs, and what abilities it has.


Here's what I have so far:
There'd be four modifiable parts to creating a construct: Size, Body Type, Material, and Upgrades (both defensive and offensive)

Here are some examples, few of which are statted or, much less, priced:

Size: of course, they are the normal sizes:
-Fine
-Diminuative
-Tiny
-Small
-Medium
-Large
-Huge
-Gargantuan
-Colossal

Body Type: I don't know of a lot, but here's a few:
-Humanoid (2 arms, 2 legs, standing upright)
-Quadraped (4 legs, standing on all of them)
-Snakelike (self-explanatory)
-Tauric quadroped (4 legs, secondary torso with two arms)
-Tauric snakelike (snake body, secondary torso with two arms)

Materials: self-explanatory: what most of the construct is made of. All of these materials should have different strengths, defenses, and weaknesses.
-Adamantine
-Mithral
-Bronze
-Iron
-Silver
-Cold Iron
-Wood
-Flesh
-Bone
-Clay
-Mud
-Stone

Upgrades: there are defensive (includes utility buffs) and offensive upgrades. This will probably be the biggest category.
offensive:
-Laser Eyes
-Natural Weapons
-Enhanced attacks
-Extra limbs
-Elemental attacks
-Breath Weapons
-Spike launchers
-Crossbow mounts
-Integrated Weapons (sword-arms, flail-elbows, and what-not)
-Cockpit

defensive:
-Augmented Armor
-Enhanced Speed
-Cloaking Device
-Increased HD
-Energy Resistance
-Enhanced Senses
-Tactical Sentience (INT 4)
-Sentience (INT 3d6)

These are just ideas. Feel encouraged to submit your own, or critique these. or something.

Fizban
2007-09-03, 01:34 AM
There was a 3.0 splatbook that did this, I can't remember the title but I think it was made by Malhavoc Press. The problem is, constructs were much more expensive in 3.0, and their prices were a bit wonky anyway. It might give you a good starting point though, the idea was it started with base stats and you would then add extra features like limbs, attacks, and materials which had flat costs and CR modifiers.

I agree with the suggestion made in the thread you had in gaming: it would be good to start with something like the astral construct forms. The important part is the stats, you can flavor what they look like however you want.

Macrovore
2007-09-03, 10:16 AM
Exactly! Flavor divorced from mechanics! That's what I'm going for, here.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=3137966
Someone in the last thread gave me this link, (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/d20/detail.php?qsID=26&qsSeries=15) which looks like a pretty cool book. But I don't feel like buying it right now (I may later, but i don't have a credit card)

So, I've decided to make my own system (with the help of the Boards, of course).

DanielLC
2007-09-03, 11:19 AM
Why the body types? Why not have a cost for each peice, and stick them together how you like? For example, allowing you to make a medium torso with four small legs and a large arm coming out of the top.
You could even take it down another level and make an arm made of two bars, a 130 degree bend join, and a 180 degree rotation joit, then just let people use standard limbs if they're lazy or unimagitive.
Going that far would make the mechanics become guessing what it would do, but I think with the first version I suggested you could do it.

Edit: If you don't want to make the first set of mechanics I suggested, but you don't mind my doing so, I would like to. May I?

Finerty
2007-09-03, 01:15 PM
My friend and I have recently been discussing how to insert giant smart flying ships into our epic 3.5 campaign. So we've been looking at things like the Astral Dreadnought (Actually, that might be the name of a monster... either way, the colossal living astral ships in Planar Handbook), which have move-speeds dependent on the Int of the captain in the cockpit.
I suggested a number of different kinds of cockpit:
Weave - The construct applies the pilot's dexterity bonus as a dodge bonus to it's own AC, and if it has a fly speed appropriate to its size, the maneuverability is based on the pilot's dexterity.
Linked - An arcane caster can attach spell-trigger items to the construct as enhanced attacks, and manipulate them from within the cockpit. Also, the pilot may have any transmutation spells affecting herself affect the entire construct.
Maintenance - The pilot in this cockpit may cast any spell into the helm and have it instantaneously be converted into a repair damage spell of the same level as the spell expended. Craft checks made to repair damage to the construct can take a 10, even in battle.

More to follow.

Dove
2007-09-03, 06:14 PM
Greetings, fellow construct enthusiast. I'd love to see this develop better; your hardware mechanic is a nice complement to the I'm working on.


Some thoughts and contributions:

I know you haven't really fleshed out cost yet, but one of the things you might do is introduce construct upgrades in an items/slots type setup. PCs build character power this way, though you'll need much more general slots. You'll want external/internal slots, limbs, body, and the like.

You could have a tauric construct with slots for six limbs, or a "storage" upgrade which requires an internal storage slot. Rocket launchers which require an external, bulky slot. Upgrades which vary in size and required space and support. Synergistic upgrades, such as a mechanical claw attack which can draw from an internal battery to do electrical damage.

For inspiration, I highly recommend the PC game Starscape (Short movie/demo [url=http://www.moonpod.com/English/about_ss.php]here (]software mechanic[/url)). It did slotted upgrades/modular building really, really well. You can also look at some of the concept artwork for Battlescape. (Mechas (http://www.moonpod.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1072), Tanks (http://www.moonpod.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=908))


Some thoughts on constructs as players' allies:

One of the problems with building constructs is that it literally gives a player an extra character. There are other things which do this: animal companions, cohorts, mounts/pets, followers, and familiars. In general, though, I've found that it's very, very hard to walk the line between "broken" and "useless". At only two levels behind, cohorts are commonly far too powerful for the cost (a feat), while mounts can be so fragile (even at a high gold cost) as to be a serious liability. Animal companions (druid style) come close to the right amount of power to be interesting without being overwhelming.

One thing about these is that most are extremely hard to get, and you never get more than one of the good ones. They're class features or feats, which are inherently limited. You can't buy multiple ones, and their power scales with player level.

Constructs cost gold, XP, and time. So how do you walk the line between "broken" and "useless"? Scaling cost appropriately would be a start, but wouldn't get you all the way there. If they're "bought", you'll need a way to upgrade them over time, or their power will fade. You'll also want a way to keep a party from pooling resources to buy a half dozen big tanks. Here are some other options:

- Constructs don't heal naturally. Perhaps it takes time and money to repair them after battle. (Alternatively, include self-repairing as an upgrade?)

- Constructs are hard to manage. If they are the sort you have to drive from the cockpit, you can only have one. If they are autonomous, redirecting them takes time. Perhaps make controlling a construct a full round action, and redirecting one a move action.

Macrovore
2007-09-03, 07:19 PM
Greetings, fellow construct enthusiast. I'd love to see this develop better; your hardware mechanic is a nice complement to the software mechanic I'm working on.

Thanks!



Some thoughts and contributions:

I know you haven't really fleshed out cost yet, but one of the things you might do is introduce construct upgrades in an items/slots type setup. PCs build character power this way, though you'll need much more general slots. You'll want external/internal slots, limbs, body, and the like.

You could have a tauric construct with slots for six limbs, or a "storage" upgrade which requires an internal storage slot. Rocket launchers which require an external, bulky slot. Upgrades which vary in size and required space and support. Synergistic upgrades, such as a mechanical claw attack which can draw from an internal battery to do electrical damage.


That's a good idea. Constructs have slots just like players, and different body types have different slots. You could also upgrade them to have additional slots (but those upgrades would cost a lot)


Some thoughts on constructs as players' allies:

One of the problems with building constructs is that it literally gives a player an extra character. There are other things which do this: animal companions, cohorts, mounts/pets, followers, and familiars. In general, though, I've found that it's very, very hard to walk the line between "broken" and "useless". At only two levels behind, cohorts are commonly far too powerful for the cost (a feat), while mounts can be so fragile (even at a high gold cost) as to be a serious liability. Animal companions (druid style) come close to the right amount of power to be interesting without being overwhelming.

One thing about these is that most are extremely hard to get, and you never get more than one of the good ones. They're class features or feats, which are inherently limited. You can't buy multiple ones, and their power scales with player level.

Constructs cost gold, XP, and time. So how do you walk the line between "broken" and "useless"? Scaling cost appropriately would be a start, but wouldn't get you all the way there. If they're "bought", you'll need a way to upgrade them over time, or their power will fade. You'll also want a way to keep a party from pooling resources to buy a half dozen big tanks. Here are some other options:

- Constructs don't heal naturally. Perhaps it takes time and money to repair them after battle. (Alternatively, include self-repairing as an upgrade?)

- Constructs are hard to manage. If they are the sort you have to drive from the cockpit, you can only have one. If they are autonomous, redirecting them takes time. Perhaps make controlling a construct a full round action, and redirecting one a move action.

That's interesting, and we'll definitely take that into account. But I do intend to make controlling constructs take time (at least a move action for simpler orders, and as long as a full-round action).

Jack_Simth
2007-09-03, 07:45 PM
I would advise non-linear scaling (e.g., use something akin to the enhancement rules on weapons - a +2 enhancement costs 4 times as much as a +1 enhancement). Flavorwise, maybe the more you put in, the more fine-tuning the magic needs so that it doesn't interfere with itself. Who knows.

Something like....

Cost: 10 gp * Construction Factor^2 (or 5 gp * Construction Factor ^2, plus 0.4 xp * Construction Factor ^2 to craft).


Construction Factor (CF) is based on size:
Fine: 1 CF (must have exactly 1 HD); base stats: Str 1, Dex 16, Con -, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 1;
Diminutive: 2 CF (1 or 2 Hit Dice); base stats: Str 1, Dex 14, Con -, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 1
Tiny: 3 CF (1 to 4 Hit Dice); base stats: Str 2, Dex 12, Con -, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 1
Small: 4 CF (2 to 8 Hit Dice); base stats: Str 6, Dex 10, Con -, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 1
Medium: 5 CF (4 to 16 Hit Dice); base stats: Str 10, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 1
Large: 6 CF (8 to 32 Hit Dice); base stats: Str 18, Dex 6, Con -, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 1
Huge: 7 CF (16 to 64 Hit Dice); base stats: Str 26, Dex 4, Con -, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 1
Gargantuan: 8 CF (32 to 128 Hit Dice); base stats: Str 34, Dex 4, Con -, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 1
Colossal: 9 CF (64 to 256 Hit Dice); base stats: Str 42, Dex 4, Con -, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 1

Body Type:
Extra legs (for increased carrying capacity, stability against bull rushes, and the like) is a flat +2 CF.

Speed:
Base speed is 20 foot land based.
+2 CF per +10 base speed.
A Fly speed is available at +1 CF per 10 feet at Clumsy maneuverability (minimum 60 foot speed); +2 CF per 10 feet at Poor maneuverability (minimum 50 foot speed), +3 CF per 10 feet at average maneuverability (minimum 40 foot speed), +4 CF per 10 feet at Good maneuverability (minimum 30 foot speed), +5 CF per 10 feet at Perfect maneuverability (minimum 20 foot speed); Construction requires Fly or Air Walk spell.
A Swim speed is available at +1 CF per 10 feet of speed; Construction requires the Water Walk spell.
A Climb speed is available at +2 CF per 10 feet of speed; Construction requires the Spider Climb spell
A Burrow speed is available at +3 CF per 10 feet of speed; Construction requires the Polymorph spell.
+ total Hit Dice in CF (so a minimal Large construct has at least a 14, before adding other stuff in; the cheapest construct you can possibly have has a CF of 2)
Increased stats: +1 CF per +1 to the stat over the base; for this, treat - as 0 (so an Int-10 construct would need +10 CF)

Normal Feats (Hit Die based): +2 CF per normal feat (normal feats require an intelligence score of at least one). Do note that you MUST give the construct all normal feats for it's hit dice if it has an intelligence score.

Bonus Feats (not Hit Die based): +4 CF per bonus feat.

Normal Skills (Hit Die based): +1 CF per skill rank (normal skills require an intelligence score. Do note that you MUST give the construct the appropriate number of normal skill ranks for its intelligence score).

Melee Attacks: You are not required to give your construct any attacks at all.
A fine or Diminutive construct can have no attacks.
A Tiny or Small construct can have no more than a single attack of any type.
A Medium or Large construct can have no more than two Slam and two Claw, attacks (no Bite attacks).
A Huge or Gargantuan construct can have no more than four Slam, four Claw, and two Bite attacks.
A Colossal construct can have no more than six Slam, six Claw, and three Bite attacks.
Slam: +1 CF for each Slam attack; use the zombie Slam damage table for base damage dice.
Claw: +2 CF for each Claw attack; use the half-dragon claw damage table for base damage dice.
Bite: +3 CF for each Bite attack; use the half-dragon Bite damage table for base damage dice.

Special Melee attacks: no more than one of each, has specific requirements:
Rend: +3 CF; Requires two Claw attacks; use the half-dragon Bite damage table for base damage dice; it applies automatically whenever at least two claw attacks hit.
Rake: +1 CF; Requires at least one Claw attack; use the half-dragon Claw damage table for base damage dice; applies only in grapples.
Improved Grab: +3 CF, requires at least one Claw attack.
Swallow Whole: +3 CF, requires at least one Bite attack, mechanical "stomach" can hold one creature of one size category smaller than the construct. A creature two size categories smaller than the construct counts as 1/2, a creature three size categories smaller than the construct counts as 1/4, and so on. If the construct has a Slam attack, the stomach automatically deals Slam damage to anyone inside each round. If the construct does not have a Slam attack, no damage is dealt to those so contained. Damage to escape is 1/4th the Constructs total HP; AC of the stomach is 10 + Natural Armor; if the construct has fast healing, each contained victim must cut their own hole. Otherwise, only one victim need escape, as the hole does not close.

Fast Healing: +3 CF per point of fast healing; construction requires a Cure (or other, appropriate Conjuration(Healing) spell) or Repair spell of a spell level for a Cleric/Wizard equal to the number of points of Fast Healing (thus, to get Fast Healing 3, you could use Cure Serious Wounds in construction).

Natural Armor: +1 CF per point of natural armor.

Damage Reduction: +1 CF per point of DR/Adamantine.

All-Around Vision: +1 CF; denies flanking bonuses.

Spell effects:
Usable by the Construct every 1d4+1 rounds, Spell-like: +4 CF per spell level (Cantrips/Osirons count as 1/2 spell level for this purpose); construction requires the appropriate spell and 100 times any components required for the spell; activation time equals the casting time of the spell (if you want it to be a swift action, apply the Quicken spell feat); requires the construct have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + spell level. Effective caster level = HD; the construct must have the minimum caster level to cast the spell.
Usable by the Construct every 1d4+1 rounds, Supernatural: +6 CF per spell level (Cantrips/Osirons count as 1/2 spell level for this purpose); construction requires the appropriate spell and 100 times any components required for the spell; activation time equals the casting time of the spell (if you want it to be a swift action, apply the Quicken spell feat). Effective caster level = HD; the construct must have the minimum caster level to cast the spell.
Always-on spell effects applying to the Construct (Su): +2 CF per spell level (Cantrips/Osirons count as 1/2 spell level for this purpose) for a spell with a duration of a day or more, +4 CF per spell level (Cantrips/Osirons count as 1/2 spell level for this purpose) for a spell with a duration measured in hours, +6 CF per spell level (Cantrips/Osirons count as 1/2 spell level for this purpose) for a spell with a duration measured in minutes, +8 CF per spell level (Cantrips/Osirons count as 1/2 spell level for this purpose) for a spell with a duration of rounds/level. Spells with durations under Rounds/level cannot be included as always-on. Construction requires the appropriate spell and 100 times any components required for the spell. Effective caster level = HD; the construct must have the minimum caster level to cast the spell.

Magic Immunity: +20 CF, construction requires Antimagic Field. Any bonus holes (e.g., the Iron Golem's ability to be Healed by Fire damage), must be balanced by a vulnerability hole (e.g., the Iron Golem is slowed by electrical damage) as selected by the DM.


These numbers are completely random, "feels right" numbers. And it should cover almost anything you want to add (after you add your own flavor, of course).

Let's see... an Iron Golem is Large (6 base), 18 HD (+18), Str 33 (+15), Dex 9 (+3), Con —, Int —, Wis 11 (+3), Cha 1 (+0), DR 15/Adamantine (+15), Magic Immunity (+20), Breath Weapon (call it a Quickened Su Cloudkill, +48), move 20 (+0), 2 slams (+2); total Construction Factor: 130; price: 169,000. Anyone want to check ballpark for other constructs?

If you wanted to make a decent scout (Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen as class skills, enough Intelligence to make use of it), the minimal cost is a Fine (+1) construct with 1 HD (+1), 14 Int (+14), 16 skill ranks (+16), one normal feat (required with an Intelligence score and 1 HD; +2; let's go with Alertness), and a fly(perfect) speed (minimum speed 20; +10), for a CF of 44, for a cost of 19,360 gp (and it would have Hide +23, Move Silently +7, Spot +5, Listen +5). Hmm... would that be worthwhile?

Macrovore
2007-09-04, 12:31 AM
Wow, man, that's really cool. I like the system. It'll be incorporated into the big scheme. It doesn't have materials, though.

One thing I want to do is divorce the reliance on spells. These constructs shouldn't be able to get most spell-like-abilities. Too easy to abuse. Instead, give them special attacks that are very similar to spells. Like a rocket launcher that has an effect similar to a fireball (though completely supernatural).

Macrovore
2007-09-04, 12:33 AM
And by your count, 1 CF is 1300gp. I'm not sure how it interacts with other MM constructs, but it looks pretty good.

Jack_Simth
2007-09-04, 06:18 AM
Wow, man, that's really cool. I like the system. It'll be incorporated into the big scheme. It doesn't have materials, though.

Materials are a special effect. If you wanted...

Clay: DR 10, 14 natural armor, +24 CF (which would be the cost of the natural armor and DR; lifted from the Clay golem).
Flesh: DR 5, 10 natural armor, +15 CF (which would be the cost of the natural armor and DR; lifted from the Flesh golem).
Iron: DR 15, 22 natural armor, +37 CF (which would be the cost of the natural armor and DR; lifted from the Iron golem).
Stone: DR 10, 18 natural armor, +28 CF (which would be the cost of the natural armor and DR; lifted from the Stone golem).



One thing I want to do is divorce the reliance on spells. These constructs shouldn't be able to get most spell-like-abilities. Too easy to abuse.
Not really all that abuseable:

Suppose you want a construct that has Limited Wish as a spell-like ability....

It's a 7th level spell effect, so it's 28 CF right there. Construction requires the spell and 100 times any components - so we have to be able to cast limited wish, and have 30,000 extra XP, above and beyond the normal market price for the construct.

It's spell-like, so it needs the Intelligence to cast a 7th level spell; that's 17 CF right there.

It has to have at least as many HD as the minimum caster level; that's 13 HD and 13 CF

The HD demand a size of Medium (at a minimum), which is another 5 CF.

As it is intelligent, it MUST have 5 normal feats (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, and 12th HD) for another +10 CF.

As it is intelligent, it MUST have the matching skills (13 HD, 2+Int Mod per level, Int of 17, so 80 skill points, for another +80 CF.

If we give it nothing else (no DR, no fast healing, no magic immunity, no natural armor, and so on), it's got a minimum CF of 153; that gives it a market price (before the XP for Limited Wish is taken into account) of 234,090 gp. With the Xp for Limited Wish (at 5 gp per XP... but good luck finding anyone with 30,000 xp to blow) it has a market price of 384,090 (and costs 117,045 gp, 39,363 xp, and 235 days to craft - which means you need to win one big encounter that would put you almost to 22nd from 20th in order to craft it, then immediately start crafting, and have a TON of down-time; as that's unlikely to happen, you basically need to be 40th level - at which point, it's useless). Guidelines, a Widget of at-will Command-Word Limited Wish would run 7*13*1800+30,000*5=313,800 gp. And the Limited Wish Widget could be used every turn, and is an attended object (so it won't die to the first good Delayed Blast Fireball). The construct uses it's own action, and can do so intelligently, but can only use it once every 1d4+1 rounds.

Make it a Su ability, and it's a lot cheaper (higher base CF for a Su ability, but no need for Intelligence and the corresponding skills and feats), but you still need to give it 100 times the components (so it'll still cost the maker 30,000 xp to get Limited Wish; 500,000 xp to get Wish, in addition to whatever it costs for the base construct to support it), and it's still limited to once every 1d4+1 rounds. Sure, once you get the construct, you're an instant millionaire (by way of the 25k item on the safe list of Wish) but, well, Yikes. Have fun finding a particularly abusable spell.


And by your count, 1 CF is 1300gp. I'm not sure how it interacts with other MM constructs, but it looks pretty good.
Sort of. At 130 CF, each CF averages 1300 gp market, but that's only because there's 130 of them with a 10 gp base market price. The next point of natural armor will cost 2,610, market (difference between 130*130*10=169,000 and 131*131*10=171,610). Remember, formula is CF^2 * 10 gp (market). The cheapest construct under that system (Fine, Str 1, Dex 16, Con -, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 1, 20 foot move, 1 HD, no natural armor, DR, attacks, or anything else) takes 2 CF; which, with the scaling (CF^2 * base of 10 gp) has a market value of 40 gp (and is entirely useless... unless you want an animated teacup or something; with no Intelligence, it must be directly commanded).

Instead, give them special attacks that are very similar to spells. Like a rocket launcher that has an effect similar to a fireball (though completely supernatural).
Again, special effect - it's a "Rocket Launcher"? Okay - but it's game-modeled as a Supernatural Fireball. Oh, yeah - and the construct, out of the box, has no particular resistance to Fire.

Hmm... forgot things like Pounce, Slow, Berserk (usually a disadvantage for a golem), Haste, and Cursed Wound... could maybe use seperate add-ons for breath weapons (cloudkill isn't perfectly appropriate for the Iron Golem's Breath weapon, for instance). Ah well; with the way CF works in my system.

Finerty
2007-09-06, 02:46 AM
"Laser Eyes" and "Rocket Launchers" hurt this concept. This appears, since it's built in the DnD 3.5 system, to be rules for a game set in medieval times, or perhaps Renaissance or Eberron-steampunk time at the very latest. d20 modern has rocket launchers and d20 future has laser eyes, but they have their own ways of dealing with golems and constructs and mechas and pricing. If the aim here is to achieve cool, modular constructs in the traditional DnD 3.5 system, stick to the available technology: a wonderful, quirky, temperamental concept some call magic. Or hell, psionics. Unless you want to do the Warcraft thing and try to retrofit modern weaponry to an archaic setting using "dwarven/gnomish ingenuity and lots and lots of gears", just stick with mysticism. It'll give you all the firepower you need.

Dryad
2007-09-06, 03:29 PM
Jack_Smith: *sighs*:smallredface: Me likey!

Jack_Simth
2007-09-06, 04:39 PM
Thanks.

It needs a lot of polishing, though - the values are basically random and haphazard, not really reflecting the value of the abilities overly much. Worked out okay for the Iron Golem, but if we try it with, say, a Stone Golem....

Size Large; base 6 CF
14 HD; +14 CF
18 natural armor, +18 CF
Basic speed, +0 CF
2 slams, +2 CF... but a Zombie Slam is 1d8 for large, while the Stone golem gets 2d10.
Slow as a Su ability, free action every other round, caster level 7. Can't duplicate perfectly; Quickened Slow (for the Swift action) would be a 7th level effect; 7*5=+35 CF; longer duration, though (14 rounds - the number of construct HD - vs. 7 rounds for the normal stone golem)
DR 10/Adamantine, +10 CF
Str 29, +11 CF
Dex 9, +3 CF
Wis 11, +3 CF
Cha 1, +0 CF
Magic Immunity, +20 CF

Total CF: 122, so market price = 122*122*10=148,840; vs. a Regular Stone golem's cost of 90k; nearly double the price for a lesser creature (smaller damage die, can't use Slow as often).

Then again, it's probably better to err on that side...

Edit:
Hmm... check for an abuseable spell: Magic Missile, as a Su ability.
Size: Fine, base 1 CF;
HD: 1, +1 CF
Magic Missile (Su): +5 CF
Total CF: 7
Market Price: 490 gp.

What do you have?
Missile Battery
Fine Construct
Hit Dice: 1d10 (5 hp)
Initiative: –1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 21 (+8 size, +3 Dex) touch 21, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-21
Attack: —
Full Attack: —
Space/Reach: 0 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Magic Missile
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +3, Will -1
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 16, Con —, Int —, Wis 8, Cha 1 Skills: — Feats: — Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or gang (2–4)
Challenge Rating: ?????
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Magic Missile (Su): Every 1d4+1 rounds, the Missile Battery may invoke Magic Missile, as the spell, for 1d4+1 damage.

Now, you get 100 of these, and on the first round of combat, they can fire off 100d4+100 no save, no SR damage (at a cost of 49,000 gp).

Meanwhile, one Burning Hands at caster level 4 wipes them all out.

Can anyone do something more broken than that with the system?
To prevent that type of abuse, perhaps make it a Swift or Move action to command one? Or a Free action, limit three per round per commander or something?

Macrovore
2007-09-06, 10:03 PM
"Laser Eyes" and "Rocket Launchers" hurt this concept. This appears, since it's built in the DnD 3.5 system, to be rules for a game set in medieval times, or perhaps Renaissance or Eberron-steampunk time at the very latest. d20 modern has rocket launchers and d20 future has laser eyes, but they have their own ways of dealing with golems and constructs and mechas and pricing. If the aim here is to achieve cool, modular constructs in the traditional DnD 3.5 system, stick to the available technology: a wonderful, quirky, temperamental concept some call magic. Or hell, psionics. Unless you want to do the Warcraft thing and try to retrofit modern weaponry to an archaic setting using "dwarven/gnomish ingenuity and lots and lots of gears", just stick with mysticism. It'll give you all the firepower you need.
yeah. you're probably right. No laser eyes, or rocket launchers.


and Jack_Smith, I'd like the different materials that you can create constructs from to be more different. Like, wood armor has DR/slashing, or Mithral gets +2 DEX.

Jack_Simth
2007-09-06, 11:32 PM
Ah, so something more along the lines of....


Material of the body gives a flat cost increase based on the size, and has specific effects to the material.

Size Category:
Fine: 1
Diminutive: 2
Tiny: 3
Small: 4
Medium: 5
Large: 6
Huge: 7
Gargantuan: 8
Colossal: 9

Body Cost by material, with effects:
Flesh: No gold cost, but requires six fresh corpses one size category smaller than the construct to be made (or 12 fresh corpses two size categories smaller, or 24 fresh corpses three size categories smaller, and so on); any DR is pierced by Magic rather than adamantine; HP is healed by Inflict and Harm spells, damaged by Cure and Heal spells in the same manner as an Undead (but otherwise gains no features of being undead). If the construct has magic immunity, these effects bypass it. Construction of the construct requires the Animate Dead spell.
Wood: Size Category ^ 2 * 100 gp; Any DR is pierced by Slashing, not Adamantine; increase slam and claw damage by one size category; the construct picks up vulnerability to fire, and if the construct has magic immunity, any [Fire] spells bypass it. Body requires DC 15 Craft(Woodworking) or other appropriet wood-related check to construct.
Stone: Size Category ^2 * 200 gp; increases slam and claw damage by two size categories, grants one point of natural armor free of additional charge. This type of construct may not have a fly speed. Body requires a DC 20 Craft(Stone) or other appropriet stone-related skill to construct.
Iron: Size Category ^2 * 500 gp; increases slam and claw damage by two size categories, grants five points of DR/Adamantine and two points of natural armor without additional charge. This type of construct may not have a fly speed. Body requires a DC 20 Craft(Armor), Craft(Weapons), or other metal-related skill check to create.
Adamantine: Size Category ^ 2 * 10,000 gp; increases slam, claw, and bite damage by two size categories, any DR becomes DR/- (nothing penetrates, save for weapons affected by a golembane scarab or similar), and the construct gains 10 points of DR without additional cost. This type of construct may not have a fly speed. Body requires a DC 25 Craft(Armor), Craft(Weapons), or other metal-related skill check to create.
Mithral: Size Category ^ 2 * 5,000 gp; increases slam and claw damage by two size categories, grants five points of DR/Adamantine, two points of natural armor, two points of Dexterity, and +10 move (all forms purchased) without additional charge. Body requires a DC 25 Craft(Armor), Craft(Weapons), or other metal-related skill check to create.

Xerxes Shadow
2007-09-10, 03:31 PM
I like this a lot... also, what would be a good price for class levels? I was designing a robotic right-hand-man type guy, and I wanted him to be a wizard, so I decided maybe 5 CF/level? Or should I go with 10?

Jack_Simth
2007-09-10, 08:51 PM
I like this a lot... also, what would be a good price for class levels? I was designing a robotic right-hand-man type guy, and I wanted him to be a wizard, so I decided maybe 5 CF/level? Or should I go with 10?
You should go with "Not Available at creation" honestly; not for mechanical balance of the costs, but for class balance at the table; you don't wan the Cleric to buy a Wizard (or vice-versa) - at 5 CF/level, the Fine Int-30 Wizard-20 with 1 racial HD only runs at about CF 182, for a market price of 331,240. And he'll blow basically anything out of the water.

If there's a particular reason you need to be able to create him as a DM, he's a plot-item; market price of -. If you need him as a player, take Leadership and get a Warforged cohort. That's about the only way you'll get a reasonable amount of balance out of it.

Xerxes Shadow
2007-09-11, 09:57 PM
What about an XP-earning advantage that takes a ton of CF, or some strenuos (spelling?) feat/skill requirements?

Jack_Simth
2007-09-12, 06:17 AM
That could work, for an NPC, at least; theoretically, though, the construct gains that ability from having an Intelligence score:


Class Levels: Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of “By character class” in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.(Emphasis added)

If you want it to be a cohort or PC, though, the biggest question becomes "what's it's level adjustment"? With LA and hit dice, you can figure out how much XP it needs to gain a level of Wizard. This system produces constructs with vastly varying abilities - from the animated teacup which must be commanded directly (at a market price of 40 gp) to the magic-immune intelligent Colossus that can Wish away any woes he can't simply smash (insanely high market price... to the point of being an Epic item). Hmm... perhaps +1 LA per size category below Small, AND +1 LA per 20 CF, racial HD and Intelligence required?