How do you challenge a Gargantuan Animated Object?

[gogogome]

A player of mine frequents these forums quite frequently, and he decided to try out the "Sorcerer Master of Animate Objects and Planar Binding" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?554435-Sorcerer-Master-of-Animate-Objects-and-Planar-Binding) build that's been floating around here recently.

Up to level 5 he wasn't a problem. All he did was summon a bunch of horses and cast power word pain, but now we're level 6, the level when the build comes online, and now he's demolishing my entire dungeon with a colossal adamantine morningstar, shredding every creature with Girallon's Blessing (He has 5 attacks per round now, 2d+7, and four 1d4+7 with additional rend damage, that spell is really poorly worded, and it's 10min/level to boot), and I don't know how to deal significant damage to it with CR 6 creatures because of its 8 hardness and 148hp.

To be clear, I don't want to punish this player. I could tell this build was made for fun rather than muchkin power TO-ness, and he's using it to play as Nox from the tv show Wakfu, but I'm having trouble challenging this player. The rest of the party is a Barbarian, a fighter, a wizard, and a cleric.

Wall of Force dungeons seems like a real **** move on my part so i don't want to do that. He can't keep it up 24/7 at this time so I have been doing one or two encounters at the end of the day when he's out of spells, but I don't want to keep doing that and now he rests when he has at least 1 level 2 spell slot left.

Any advice on challenging this guy without wiping out the rest of the party?

[JNAProductions]

Nox! Noximilleon the clockmaker! YES!

But, um, as for the actual issue... I'd talk to the player. Tell them something like this: "Hey, I'm glad you're having fun, but I honestly have no idea what to throw at you guys. Anything I toss your way will either be unable to challenge you, but be good for everyone else, or be a good challenge for you, but absolutely buttsmash everyone else. Could we possibly talk about temporarily retiring your character? Have them get an urgent message from home or something, leave for the next... I dunno, five levels? (I know, long time, but I want to make it fun for everyone.) He can come back once the enemies are more appropriately leveled for everyone, but it just doesn't work for now."

Basically, emphasize that it's not their fault, but the game is not working right with their current character.

[Karl Aegis]

Caltrops or marbles.

The ravid's animate objects supernatural ability only animates one object at random and it lasts 20 rounds. If they go through a patch of caltrops or marbles they might animate those instead of the weapon. The animated object stops being a legal target for girallon's blessing the moment it stops being a creature. Also, the animated object, as a creature, is not a legal target for animate objects because it is not an object. There is some downtime between when the weapon is a creature and an object. Just having firewood, rocks, doodads, or something makes the animate objects ability unreliable for animating the weapon. Also, the weapon is not a legal target for the animate objects ability if someone is carrying it. Have a goon pick it up when it is not longer an animated object.

Hide behind something. Animated objects are not trained in the use of skills. If you use the hide skill against it it uses a wisdom check to try to detect you. It has 1 wisdom. It doesn't have a very good chance to detect anything.

It moves at 10 feet per round. Walk away from it.

If all else fails, dump the contents of a spell component pouch on the sorcerer.

[Nifft]

How would a swarm of Rust Monsters interact with this animated object, and/or the oversized mace?

[Dimers]

((Flying plus ranged attacks)) should do fine against a ground-bound, easy-to-hit creature. If it suddenly starts flying, well, it's now an even better target for Dispel Magic than it already was. Swarms can be immune to weapon damage. Opponent constructs can have too much hardness for the adamantine weapon to penetrate. Keep the creature from moving with Levitate. Maybe its weight (or dungeon-smashiness) makes it break through a thin floor and fall into lava.

[gogogome]

Caltrops or marbles.

The ravid's animate objects supernatural ability only animates one object at random and it lasts 20 rounds. If they go through a patch of caltrops or marbles they might animate those instead of the weapon. The animated object stops being a legal target for girallon's blessing the moment it stops being a creature. Also, the animated object, as a creature, is not a legal target for animate objects because it is not an object. There is some downtime between when the weapon is a creature and an object. Just having firewood, rocks, doodads, or something makes the animate objects ability unreliable for animating the weapon. Also, the weapon is not a legal target for the animate objects ability if someone is carrying it. Have a goon pick it up when it is not longer an animated object.

Hide behind something. Animated objects are not trained in the use of skills. If you use the hide skill against it it uses a wisdom check to try to detect you. It has 1 wisdom. It doesn't have a very good chance to detect anything.

It moves at 10 feet per round. Walk away from it.

If all else fails, dump the contents of a spell component pouch on the sorcerer.

To clarify, the animated object is a giant stone clock with multiple legs and arms so it has 40ft speed and it's wielding a colossal morning star as a weapon solely to smash walls with, never used in combat.

He's also inside the object and animating it from inside so caltrops won't do anything unless someone can get them inside the object. Also he's animating both the clock and the morning star with a 10round delay between them, and if he fails the will save to animate the clock he simply de-animates the morning star and animates the clock with it as per Animate object's switching target rule.


If it suddenly starts flying, well, it's now an even better target for Dispel Magic than it already was.

This object was animated by a Su ability so it cannot be dispelled.

[Eldariel]

It's a fairly high-powered Tier 2-1 build; thus throw spellcasters playing around with similar levels of power at it. Alter Self and Assume Supernatural Ability can do any number of nasty things. So can e.g. Shrink Item, Explosive Runes, Sepia Snake Sigil, etc. But yeah, obviously that's going to waltz all over anything intended for level 5 PCs since its power level is anything but.

[FreddyNoNose]

A player of mine frequents these forums quite frequently, and he decided to try out the "Sorcerer Master of Animate Objects and Planar Binding" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?554435-Sorcerer-Master-of-Animate-Objects-and-Planar-Binding) build that's been floating around here recently.

Up to level 5 he wasn't a problem. All he did was summon a bunch of horses and cast power word pain, but now we're level 6, the level when the build comes online, and now he's demolishing my entire dungeon with a colossal adamantine morningstar, shredding every creature with Girallon's Blessing (He has 5 attacks per round now, 2d+7, and four 1d4+7 with additional rend damage, that spell is really poorly worded, and it's 10min/level to boot), and I don't know how to deal significant damage to it with CR 6 creatures because of its 8 hardness and 148hp.

To be clear, I don't want to punish this player. I could tell this build was made for fun rather than muchkin power TO-ness, and he's using it to play as Nox from the tv show Wakfu, but I'm having trouble challenging this player. The rest of the party is a Barbarian, a fighter, a wizard, and a cleric.

Wall of Force dungeons seems like a real **** move on my part so i don't want to do that. He can't keep it up 24/7 at this time so I have been doing one or two encounters at the end of the day when he's out of spells, but I don't want to keep doing that and now he rests when he has at least 1 level 2 spell slot left.

Any advice on challenging this guy without wiping out the rest of the party?


anti-magic fields, lighting traps that destroy it, wards that prevent passage into the dungeon, monsters that can destroy it. A monster that can steal control over the animated objects.

[Dimers]

The occasional Grease spell should also be amusing. :smallsmile:

Or something that imposes a Dex penalty, knocking the clock down to an effective 0 and rendering it helpless?

[gogogome]

Nox! Noximilleon the clockmaker! YES!

But, um, as for the actual issue... I'd talk to the player. Tell them something like this: "Hey, I'm glad you're having fun, but I honestly have no idea what to throw at you guys. Anything I toss your way will either be unable to challenge you, but be good for everyone else, or be a good challenge for you, but absolutely buttsmash everyone else. Could we possibly talk about temporarily retiring your character? Have them get an urgent message from home or something, leave for the next... I dunno, five levels? (I know, long time, but I want to make it fun for everyone.) He can come back once the enemies are more appropriately leveled for everyone, but it just doesn't work for now."

Basically, emphasize that it's not their fault, but the game is not working right with their current character.

I don't want to do this unless as a last resort. He's having fun, like a lot, and he's not muchkining because he's a sorcerer instead of a wizard despite the wizard being a better fit for Nox's character concept.


How would a swarm of Rust Monsters interact with this animated object, and/or the oversized mace?

No clue.


((Flying plus ranged attacks)) should do fine against a ground-bound, easy-to-hit creature.

Which ranged attacks specifically? Because I doubt any arrows would overcome the 8 hardness in any meaningful manner.


It's a fairly high-powered Tier 2-1 build; thus throw spellcasters playing around with similar levels of power at it. Alter Self and Assume Supernatural Ability can do any number of nasty things. So can e.g. Shrink Item, Explosive Runes, Sepia Snake Sigil, etc. But yeah, obviously that's going to waltz all over anything intended for level 5 PCs since its power level is anything but.

Could you elaborate how those spells could challenge this player? And I think Shrink Item won't work because the Animated Object is a creature, not an item, and therefore doesn't have the energy resistance properties of a normal item (half from fire and lightning, quarter from cold). I don't want to reverse this ruling.


anti-magic fields, lighting traps that destroy it, wards that prevent passage into the dungeon, monsters that can destroy it. A monster that can steal control over the animated objects.

Anti-magic field is actually a nice idea for specific parts of the dungeon. Thanks.

How do lightning traps destroy it?
Which monsters can destroy it?
Which monster can steal control over the object?


The occasional Grease spell should also be amusing. :smallsmile:

Not really, the thing has 20ft reach! It doesn't matter if it's prone or immobile.

[Troacctid]

AOE blasting attacks tend to be good against animated objects because they deal damage in large enough chunks to break through the hardness, and the clock is never dodging with -2 Dex. (Remember, because they're considered creatures and not objects, they no longer take half damage from fire or lightning or 1/4 damage from cold.)

Also, smashing through a dungeon with a colossal adamantine morningstar is probably not going to end well unless someone in the party had the foresight to take enough ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) to successfully identify which walls are load-bearing.

[FreddyNoNose]

I don't want to do this unless as a last resort. He's having fun, like a lot, and he's not muchkining because he's a sorcerer instead of a wizard despite the wizard being a better fit for Nox's character concept.



No clue.



Which ranged attacks specifically? Because I doubt any arrows would overcome the 8 hardness in any meaningful manner.



Could you elaborate how those spells could challenge this player? And I think Shrink Item won't work because the Animated Object is a creature, not an item, and therefore doesn't have the energy resistance properties of a normal item (half from fire and lightning, quarter from cold). I don't want to reverse this ruling.



Anti-magic field is actually a nice idea for specific parts of the dungeon. Thanks.

How do lightning traps destroy it?
Which monsters can destroy it?
Which monster can steal control over the object?



Not really, the thing has 20ft reach! It doesn't matter if it's prone or immobile.

Lets make some up. The monster called the glick-glick destroys the weapon on contact. Glick-glicks can only be killed by someone shouting the word November.

The monster named Ferd, can take control over all animated objects. Now Ferds run in Herds and they take control using Words...........

Lighting hitting it forces an item savings throw.

Wards prevent entry. It could be a ward against animated or one against the material the item is made from.

Basically, it sounds like you are letting it be too powerful. It is your job and duty to counter it by any means. Even by disintegration.

[gogogome]

AOE blasting attacks tend to be good against animated objects because they deal damage in large enough chunks to break through the hardness, and the clock is never dodging with -2 Dex. (Remember, because they're considered creatures and not objects, they no longer take half damage from fire or lightning or 1/4 damage from cold.)

That's how I'm ruling it.


Also, smashing through a dungeon with a colossal adamantine morningstar is probably not going to end well unless someone in the party had the foresight to take enough ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) to successfully identify which walls are load-bearing.

If the dungeon completely collpases on top of the animated object, how much damage would it receive? I think a statue the size of a house would have most of its body intact even after a cave in.


Lets make some up. The monster called the glick-glick destroys the weapon on contact. Glick-glicks can only be killed by someone shouting the word November.

The monster named Ferd, can take control over all animated objects. Now Ferds run in Herds and they take control using Words...........

Lighting hitting it forces an item savings throw.

Wards prevent entry. It could be a ward against animated or one against the material the item is made from.

Basically, it sounds like you are letting it be too powerful. It is your job and duty to counter it by any means. Even by disintegration.

I'm not the type of DM who uses homebrew, especially homebrew that specifically counters one of my players.

[Troacctid]

If the dungeon completely collpases on top of the animated object, how much damage would it receive? I think a statue the size of a house would have most of its body intact even after a cave in.
You could resolve it as the earthquake spell. But the more salient problem is that they just blocked off their access to the rest of the dungeon and presumably failed the quest as a result.

[gogogome]

You could resolve it as the earthquake spell. But the more salient problem is that they just blocked off their access to the rest of the dungeon and presumably failed the quest as a result.

Except he has a colossal adamantine morningstar to unblock the dungeon!

[Dimers]

Stone shape spell can target "Stone or stone object touched", so it c-- no, wait, it can't. Clock is too large to affect.

Invisible stalker can reliably damage the clock and will be extremely hard for it to target in return.

If you rule that the stone clock is a crystalline creature, Shatter will do just fine.

Ranger with favored enemy Constructs? Construct Bane spells or weapons? Seems unlikely to appear over and over, but could be a nice change of pace. Maybe the PC in question is raising the ire of a psycho stalker ranger who wants to destroy all golems.

5x5 teleporter pads necessary to get to the otherwise hidden destination.

A quest for the PCs to clear out a dungeon while leaving it as intact as possible.

If someone knows the sorcerer is inside, they use Matter Agitation psi power (for one power point) on the clock and concentrate a few minutes (while invisible and flying). It explicitly can target creatures. Hell, if someone knows the real problem is inside, Burrowing Power psi feat will let all kinds of area effects smack the sorcerer directly.

I'm suddenly reminded of The Cube. Maybe look up that build and see what effects were suggested against it. Some won't apply because IIRC the outer layer was an object ... and some will work better in this case for the same reason.

There are spells designed for wrecking constructs like ray of deanimation or crumble.

Some initiator powers ignore DR and hardness.

I don't know many monsters, but there may well be some kind of ooze that eats through stone.


Which ranged attacks specifically? Because I doubt any arrows would overcome the 8 hardness in any meaningful manner.

My go-to is warlock's eldritch blast. I guess adamantine-tipped arrows would work here, but that gets expensive quick. (At least the cost doesn't feed the PCs more loot -- the arrows are destroyed on a hit and possibly on a miss as well.)


Except he has a colossal adamantine morningstar to unblock the dungeon!

Hmm, I suggested a Dex penalizer earlier, but this brings up another point -- if there's 180 tons of rubble on the problem PC, he ain't liftin' and swingin' no nuthin'. A Strength penalizer would also significantly reduce damage.

[Tvtyrant]

Shivering touch/lehms finger darts.

[unseenmage]

Except he has a colossal adamantine morningstar to unblock the dungeon!

How. How did they get their hands on such an expensive weapon?

That one player is having fun means naught if the rest are bored or dissatisfied. And if they're all enjoying themselves then what's the issue?


In addition to Antimagic Field you could also look at Energy Transformation Field from Spell Compendium. Dispelling Screen too. Creative use likely required.

Cave ins and collapses are in the Hazards section of th ed DMG. Kinda required info for dungeon crashing characters.

A deep enough dungeon could be built within an aquifer. Crush a wall and voila, time to look up the drowning rules. Deeper still and there's magma instead.

Traps are often housed within the walls of dungeons. You think that giant swinging axblade is dangerous? Imagine the kinetic forces held within the mechanism that swings it, then smack the construct with all of that when they helpfully shatter the wall that houses it.

There's also the dust and debris to consider. Rubble would be difficult terrain and enemies could get wise and plan an an ambush for when the thing is knee deep in crushed walls.
Dust from the endeavour could make breathing difficult. Rules also in the DMG IIRC.

A trap or spellcaster could Plane Shift or Teleport the construct. At later levels the players could learn that the Teleport Through Time spell was what actually happened and rediscover the lost toy.

Could also have the object get Minor Servitor-ed or Awaken Construct-ed and become a free willed sentient NPC. Perhaps by a magic trap or similar.

[gogogome]

@Dimers
All your suggestions are sound advice.


Hmm, I suggested a Dex penalizer earlier, but this brings up another point -- if there's 180 tons of rubble on the problem PC, he ain't liftin' and swingin' no nuthin'. A Strength penalizer would also significantly reduce damage.

I'm guessing since he can animate as many objects as he wants, he would probably animate every piece of rubble and have them all leave the area over the course of a day or two.


How. How did they get their hands on such an expensive weapon?

3,054gp is hardly expensive and since he crafted it himself it cost him 1,018gp, and there was a thread in the past month that showed without a doubt that the +3,000gp modifier for adamantine weapon is added after the size multiplier cost for a weapon, not before. An official example in the MiC I believe.


That one player is having fun means naught if the rest are bored or dissatisfied. And if they're all enjoying themselves then what's the issue?

I fear the Barbarian and the Fighter might be dissatisfied. He's doing all of their jobs better than them, and the worst part is, the sorcerer isn't doing "everything". In all intents and purposes the sorcerer is just as much of a fighter as the barbarian and the fighter, and not a wizard who also happens to outfight the fighter. The sorcerer is a gish if anything.

I know the barbarian and the fighter won't be doing as much as him, but right now they're doing nothing. 5 attacks at 20ft reach really does outshine the Barbarian's raged full attack by a mile.


There's also the dust and debris to consider. Rubble would be difficult terrain and enemies could get wise and plan an an ambush for when the thing is knee deep in crushed walls. Dust from the endeavour could make breathing difficult. Rules also in the DMG IIRC.

This actually does give me an idea. Overwhelm the party with numbers so that every party member must be firing all cylinders at full capacity just to survive, as in the animated object is too busy killing stuff to help the fighter and barbarian fight their battles.

[Troacctid]

Except he has a colossal adamantine morningstar to unblock the dungeon!
Smashing the rubble into tinier pieces isn't going to move it out of your way. Come back with a colossal adamantine shovel and we can talk.

[unseenmage]

...

3,054gp is hardly expensive and since he crafted it himself it cost him 1,018gp, and there was a thread in the past month that showed without a doubt that the +3,000gp modifier for adamantine weapon is added after the size multiplier cost for a weapon, not before. An official example in the MiC I believe.

...
And how did they get their hands on that volume of adamantine ln raw materials?

Could easily have been stolen to have been sold in such high volume, from a nation's treasury or shipping caravan no doubt. Would be a real shame if the original owners put a bounty out on a batch of alchemically marked ultra rare metals...

Remember, it is also strict RAW that you, the GM, are the arbiter of the world and required to make the PCs accountable for their in game actions.

Saying no, even after the fact (no matter how creative you must get) is a part of that Rules as Written GM's duty too.

EDIT Almost forgot. Eberron has the Warforged Domain, lets Clerics turn and rebuke Constructs. MIC has the Domain Draught that grants access to a domain temporarily too so your enemy cleric can do the thing without needing to be specifically built that way.

[gogogome]

Smashing the rubble into tinier pieces isn't going to move it out of your way. Come back with a colossal adamantine shovel and we can talk.

If the rubble is made up of tiny pieces then the animated object could just dig through the rubble and the sorcerer could expose himself to animate all the rubble away. Or he can just use the unseen crafters to create a colossal stone shovel. Don't think it needs to be adamantine to shovel pieces.


And how did they get their hands on that volume of adamantine ln raw materials?

From shops. I'm not the type of DM to restrict players beyond the demographic restrictions in the DMG. Also I'm ruling that the colossal adamantine morning star is not pure adamantine. It should be 20,000gp to be pure, but since it's a fraction of that cost I'm ruling that its insides are filled with cheaper metals or something.


EDIT Almost forgot. Eberron has the Warforged Domain, lets Clerics turn and rebuke Constructs. MIC has the Domain Draught that grants access to a domain temporarily too so your enemy cleric can do the thing without needing to be specifically built that way.

Thanks.

[unseenmage]

If the rubble is made up of tiny pieces then the animated object could just dig through the rubble and the sorcerer could expose himself to animate all the rubble away. Or he can just use the unseen crafters to create a colossal stone shovel. Don't think it needs to be adamantine to shovel pieces.
Does the object have a Burrow speed? If not then I doubt it's escaping a full collapse. The sort of collapse that destroying load bearing structures causes. There's also the damage it'll take from the cave in AND the suffocation of the pilot from being buried in literal tons of material.



From shops. I'm not the type of DM to restrict players beyond the demographic restrictions in the DMG. Also I'm ruling that the colossal adamantine morning star is not pure adamantine. It should be 20,000gp to be pure, but since it's a fraction of that cost I'm ruling that its insides are filled with cheaper metals or something.

...
If it isn't Adamantine then it probably shouldn't be ignoring hardness. But that's just how you ruled it, right?

Seems you ARE the sort of GM to ignore RAW; when it suits you.

See that bit there, where you changed the rules to suit your need? That's probably what you're gonna have to do to resolve this.

Good luck to you. And I mean that sincerely.

[JyP]

Outside the rules part, if you have a Gargantuan Animated Clockwork around in a standard medieval fantasy world :

- constructing it should require so much metal that you would need to invest in iron mines, or corner the whole supply of a medieval kingdom to do so. I guess the King will be quite angry if he cannot resupply his knights with metal armors.
- it should not be able to fight underground
- it should not be able to fight in cities, as it would leave a mess afterwards
- in fact, it should deteriorate roads, fields, anywhere it goes, you would have angry peasants, lords after you
- it could only fight in open battle fields, and be used like a oversized World War I tank otherwise.
- not covered in D&D rules : machines need some upkeep, grease, and so on...
- if you used it to destroy a castle or a keep, there you go Leonardo da Vinci : some warring city-states will corner you to make the same for their internecine wars, or use spies and assassins to kill you. Or you go the Eberron way.
- another possibility is to go sentai / Power Rangers : you need to defeat villains many times, until they engage their Gargantuan monsters and you use your Gargantuan mecha to finally kill it.

[gogogome]

Does the object have a Burrow speed? If not then I doubt it's escaping a full collapse. The sort of collapse that destroying load bearing structures causes. There's also the damage it'll take from the cave in AND the suffocation of the pilot from being buried in literal tons of material.

I'm not saying it would escape full collapse, I'm saying after the collapse it shouldn't have a problem escaping the collapse over the course of a day or two, and it shouldn't have a problem digging through the rubble to continue the quest in a day or two. The Dungeon we're in right now is a 2 story stone temple. By my calculations the entire 2nd story caving in on the object should only do about 96 damage.


If it isn't Adamantine then it probably shouldn't be ignoring hardness. But that's just how you ruled it, right?

Seems you ARE the sort of GM to ignore RAW; when it suits you.

See that bit there, where you changed the rules to suit your need? That's probably what you're gonna have to do to resolve this.

Good luck to you. And I mean that sincerely.

It is adamantine, but in real life you often have the expensive hard material merely as a coating to save on costs. Tungsten Carbide coating on highspeed steel is a good example. You don't make cutting tools purely out of tungsten carbide, especially since the cheaper steel is significantly more ductile and improves the bit's durability.

Since a gargantuan amount of adamantine according to the stronghold builder's guide is 20,000gp, but this gargantuan sized morning star (onehanded weapons are 1 size smaller than the size of the creature it is intended for) costs 3,054gp, I ruled it that this adamantine morning star is mostly steel but has a fully adamantine shell in order to prevent my players from using dysfunctional RAW from gaining infinite wealth (build the morning star with 1,018gp, smelt it, and sell it for 10,000gp).


Outside the rules part, if you have a Gargantuan Animated Clockwork around in a standard medieval fantasy world :

- constructing it should require so much metal that you would need to invest in iron mines, or corner the whole supply of a medieval kingdom to do so. I guess the King will be quite angry if he cannot resupply his knights with metal armors.
- it should not be able to fight underground
- it should not be able to fight in cities, as it would leave a mess afterwards
- in fact, it should deteriorate roads, fields, anywhere it goes, you would have angry peasants, lords after you
- it could only fight in open battle fields, and be used like a oversized World War I tank otherwise.
- not covered in D&D rules : machines need some upkeep, grease, and so on...
- if you used it to destroy a castle or a keep, there you go Leonardo da Vinci : some warring city-states will corner you to make the same for their internecine wars, or use spies and assassins to kill you. Or you go the Eberron way.
- another possibility is to go sentai / Power Rangers : you need to defeat villains many times, until they engage their Gargantuan monsters and you use your Gargantuan mecha to finally kill it.

It's made out of stone of a dungeon the PCs cleared. It's not made out of metal and moving parts like the actual giant clock from Wakfu. Any moving gears is just an aesthetic thing. So grease and whatnot is unnecesary.
It's not that big either, it fits within a 20ft cube.
It would damage any terrain it travels with its spikey legs, but they're on the same side as the city officials so they've been lenient.
It has legs so it's pretty much all terrain.
They're destroying dungeons inhabited by monsters, not castles or keep at this time.

[Pleh]

There have been a couple good ideas here that haven't received much attention:

Rust Monsters. They destroy up to a 10ft cube of metal instantly by touching it with their antennae. Even if the player wants to argue that the Rust Monster is described as targeting Metal Objects and not Metal Creatures (I find this to be a flimsy argument), that still means they will be drawn to the Morningstar like moths to a huge bonfire. And after google searching for Rust Monster vs Adamantium, the result seems to be that Adamantium has no official defense against rusting. If your player has the gall to argue that it doesn't make sense for adamantium to rust at that point, remind them that they didn't pay for a PURE adamantium morningstar, so at the very least the rust monster can target the impurities and destroy ENOUGH of the morningstar to make it useless. Rust Monsters are CR 3, so adding a couple of them to any given fight at 6th level is entirely appropriate. I would advise against a "swarm" of rust monsters as it might feel like you're just targeting this one player. Rather, toss a couple of them into another encounter so the party has to strategize how the other characters might protect their tank from the rust monsters. If the rust monsters damage the morningstar, maybe the Wizard can help magically repair the weapon.

Swarms. Swarms are generally immune to weapon damage (so the morningstar just doesn't do anything to them unless they light it on fire). Most swarms deal damage automatically and not enough to get through hardness, so this is the threat you throw at the OTHER party members, because the tank just can't do much about them. The swarms ignore the tank and start causing problems for everyone else. Again, diversify the encounters so the tank is fighting some giant beast while the other party members get harassed by some swarms. A couple of Centipede Swarms (CR 4) with their Tremorsense and Poison should do the trick. Also remember that when the party is trivializing encounters, it's okay to set the CR bar a few notches higher to challenge them (and every encounter they trivialize with cheese should be fair game to give them experience for these high CR encounters with level appropriate XP).

Here's another one: Ghosts. For one thing, this will give the cleric something to shine at, but you might have enough ghosts that there isn't enough turning to get them all. Past that, they fly with perfect maneuverability, they have a 50% miss chance (unless they've invested in Ghost Touch or equivalent), they can walk through walls, and can become invisible by retreating to the ethereal plane. Past that, they've got some nasty touch attacks and the ability to try to possess creatures! with their Malevolence ability. If one of them manages to possess the Clock Tank, I'd imagine the party might have a bad day. Sure, the sorcerer can probably just de-animate the tank to prevent the ghost having extended control of the clock tank (since malevolence targets creatures, not objects), but again, if you diversify threats in the encounter, it could be a big deal to have to reboot the tank because a virus hacked the system, forcing the tank to miss a turn when the fighting is getting fierce outside. If you're worried the Clock Tank won't have trouble making the Will Save (DC 15+Cha mod), you can amp up the ghost's Cha with a few small tricks: Venerable (+3) Magic Blooded (+2) Unseelie Fey (+2) Ghosts (+4) gives +11 to whatever score they had without changing the CR (any more than the Ghost Template already does). For bonus points, make their class levels be Warlock so they have Eldritch Blast and can fly around pelting the tank with energy damage (Eldritch Blast specifically deals half damage to *Objects, which is no longer a problem since the Clock Tank is animated).

Let's not forget the old classic: Dragons. A Dragon can fly to stay away from the Clock Tank and shower the party in Breath Attacks (which the Clock Tank is very vulnerable to, as established with the AoE discussion). Hit them with a Young Adult Dragon and it shouldn't be outside their capability to win, while the dragon is just getting some of their more potent abilities coming online (for many dragons, this includes their first step into sorcerer spells).

I've recently become a fan of the good ol' Black Pudding as well. They deal energy damage (acid) so who cares if there's hardness and DR? Blindsight 60ft, Ooze Traits makes them Mindless (thus immune to the wizard's Mind Affecting effects, if any) and Blind (immune to the Wizard's visual Illusions as well), they have Improved Grab with 10ft reach out from a 15ft occupied space (in enclosed spaces, they threaten just about everyone they need to). Furthermore, Morningstars deal Piercing Damage, which triggers the Black Pudding's Split (1 ooze becomes 2, each with half the HP of the original). Now, the Black Pudding specifically says that its acid does nothing to stone (and the Clock Tank is made of stone), so RAW it probably doesn't hurt the Clock Tank, but if the Morningstar strikes the Ooze, it has to make a DC 21 reflex save or it "dissolves immediately." It'll also threaten the other players since any slam or grab from the Ooze will threaten their armor/clothes with that same Reflex or Dissolve. So best to keep in mind that this (like the Swarms) is another problem for "threats to the party that don't target the Clock Tank, but that the Clock Tank itself isn't very well equipped to handle." A single Black Pudding can pick up and Constrict everyone else in the party while the Clock Tank will mostly keep forcing the black pudding to split into even more oozes (that will begin trying to grab and constrict party members that escape the original ooze).

[jdizzlean]

a single casting of stone shape, maybe 2 and his giant stone clock will be immobile.

[Pleh]

a single casting of stone shape, maybe 2 and his giant stone clock will be immobile.

This requires an enemy caster of near equal level, to be clear. That'll eat a good chunk of your available EL, so this equivalent level caster (probably cleric/druid) likely won't have many mooks to protect them from the rest of the party. They'll be a clear target.

Also, Stone Shape is a Touch spell. This enemy cleric is going to have to get in range somehow, which might be difficult to do against a Gargantuan creature that surely has Reach of some kind.

[SirNibbles]

1. You said it is Gargantuan but has a 40 ft move speed. How? Multiple-leg gargantuan AOs have 30 ft move speeds.

2. Grease/Entangle makes it almost unable to move.

3. The Bane of the Clockwork Monk ACF (Dragon Magazine #351) allows you to crit constructs and hit them with Stunning Fist. Combine that with Pharoah's Fist (Sandstorm, page 51) and you can stun all adjacent enemies, which includes the guy inside and nearby allies.

Edit: note that unlike Stunning Fist, Pharaoh's Fist doesn't require damage to be done in order to stun, so you just have to beat the +5 Fort save. Character level 6 with 14 Wis gives a DC of 15.

Ideally, just talk to the player and make sure he understands that other players aren't able to enjoy the game.

[gogogome]

There have been a couple good ideas here that haven't received much attention:

It's not that I haven't been giving it attention, its more that the idea is good and solid to the point there's no need for further discussion. In any case your elaborations on these ideas were quite helpful!

Your idea of "Creatures that the animated object is ill-equipped to handle" is a fantastic idea.

Rust Monsters sound like a good way to destroy that morning star to protect my dungeon, but I fear my player will just destroy the walls the slow way, with his 5 attacks that don't ignore hardness, because his animated object is his entire shtick and traversing an entire dungeon without it is same as not playing that character.

Constructs are Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects so Malevolence wouldn't work since it's identical to Magic jar except for the receptacle bit.

Do you happen to have a source that acid damage ignores hardness? All I could find is that acid damage deals full damage to objects unlike the other energy types, nothing about ignoring hardness.


1. You said it is Gargantuan but has a 40 ft move speed. How? Multiple-leg gargantuan AOs have 30 ft move speeds.

2. Grease/Entangle makes it almost unable to move.

3. The Bane of the Clockwork Monk ACF (Dragon Magazine #351) allows you to crit constructs and hit them with Stunning Fist. Combine that with Pharoah's Fist (Sandstorm, page 51) and you can stun all adjacent enemies, which includes the guy inside and nearby allies.

Ideally, just talk to the player and make sure he understands that other players aren't able to enjoy the game.

1. Is an oversight on my part. I will be bumping his speed down to 30ft.
2. I can see this working. The entire opposition keeps their distance and uses ranged attacks while continually moving back, forcing the party to fight without the gargantuan animated object, but the gargantuan animated object is not completely out of the fight, it's slowly inching forward forcing the enemies to constantly move back.
3. I don't allow dragon magazine content. Too much unrevised craziness to deal with.

The animated object is just pure damage so I don't think it's anymore of a problem than an ubercharger is. If anything it's weaker than an ubercharger so honestly I think it's a good experience for the party to experience something that's similar to a polymorphed hydra in attack power. It's just unexpectedly unkillable for me, along with his 20ft reach, so my usual anti-ubercharger encounters don't work for it.

[Dimers]

@Dimers
All your suggestions are sound advice.

Thanks!


If the rubble is made up of tiny pieces then the animated object could just dig through the rubble and the sorcerer could expose himself to animate all the rubble away. Or he can just use the unseen crafters to create a colossal stone shovel. Don't think it needs to be adamantine to shovel pieces.

I'm a little doubtful about that working if the collapse is on top of the clock. What it can't lift off itself, smaller animated rubble objects couldn't lift either. But that's assuming the sorcerer can't shift his power into another creature. If he can, he can animate one thing on top of him, then the one thing on top of that, and so on until he reaches the top of the stack.


A trap or spellcaster could Plane Shift or Teleport the construct.

A lower-level option to get at the "chewy center" is the psi power Time Hop. Ooh, or Baleful Transposition!

[JyP]

It's not that big either, it fits within a 20ft cube.
Well, I don't know any medieval town, castle or even cathedral where a 20 ft cube could pass through. It could surely enter a cathedral by enlarging the main door, then the whole ceiling would collapse... This is very big, like trying to pass a ballista or siege tower under a bridge.

This could pass if you have to fight a titan or wyrm in his lair, but otherwise you can always say the Gargantuan Spider is too big to go in dungeons. It can be used to assault a keep as a siege tower, then the murderhobos team will storm the castle from it, sure. Or you can use it as a juggernaut in battles also... If one PC has Leadership you could setup a mercenary band and do great battles also (like in the Black Moon Chronicles)...

[ComaVision]

I'm not saying it would escape full collapse, I'm saying after the collapse it shouldn't have a problem escaping the collapse over the course of a day or two, and it shouldn't have a problem digging through the rubble to continue the quest in a day or two.

Even if that's true, which I don't think it is because I don't know where you'd displace the rubble to when you're in it, the pilot would suffocate "over the course of a day or two."



The animated object is just pure damage so I don't think it's anymore of a problem than an ubercharger is. If anything it's weaker than an ubercharger so honestly I think it's a good experience for the party to experience something that's similar to a polymorphed hydra in attack power. It's just unexpectedly unkillable for me, along with his 20ft reach, so my usual anti-ubercharger encounters don't work for it.

That's always an option too, ubercharger with an adamantine mace. In that vein, a Hulking Hurler could certainly do a fair amount of damage to it from a range.

If I was personally dealing with this sort of build my initial ideas are:

-Small tunnels. Either the AO can't enter or the AO smashes and collapses the tunnel. Collapsing and digging through the tunnel should take a substantial enough amount of time that the enemy is either very prepared or has cleared out.

-Environmental hazards. Sinkholes, quicksand, lava, whatever is appropriate for the environment. Rickety bridges and ravines.

-Already been mentioned a bit but 3D fights. The AO can't fly/climb/burrow. How much room is in the AO by the pilot, by the way? Phase Spiders inside with the pilot would be hilarious.

[gogogome]

-Small tunnels. Either the AO can't enter or the AO smashes and collapses the tunnel. Collapsing and digging through the tunnel should take a substantial enough amount of time that the enemy is either very prepared or has cleared out.

I don't want to do anything that prevents him from using the animated object. It's his entire shtick and making the majority of the campaign unavailable to the animated object is the same thing as not letting him play his character.


- How much room is in the AO by the pilot, by the way? Phase Spiders inside with the pilot would be hilarious.

it's a mobile base of sorts so there's lots of room.

As for the collapse stuff, if I were a victim of a cave-in I'd animate every single piece of rubble near me via the animated object's switching targets rule and have them all just walk away.

[XionUnborn01]

I don't want to do anything that prevents him from using the animated object. It's his entire shtick etc.

If there were a character that was 20ft tall, wpiod every building and house and dungeon have 20ft tall ceilings? It's totally unreasonable for a PC to expect a 20ft tall construct can fit everywhere they go. That would be like them.getti gusset they can't take their horse and buggy I'm with them. He chose to base his play off of a 20ft construct and that's going to have consequences.

The fact that he's bothering other players means this character needs to retire quickly.

[Goaty14]

With all this talk about creature counters, a Delver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/delver.htm) dishes out huge numbers of damage to stone/metallic creatures, albeit CR ~10. Send it in as a boss or something.

[ComaVision]

I don't want to do anything that prevents him from using the animated object. It's his entire shtick and making the majority of the campaign unavailable to the animated object is the same thing as not letting him play his character.

I'm not suggesting everything has small tunnels. (All though, it is kind of ridiculous that everywhere the party goes can fit a 20' cube.)

I've had uberchargers in my game, and I let the schtick work the majority of the time. If the player puts all their resources into one thing they should be allowed to do it. That doesn't mean I need to contort every encounter to be solved by that method though. I came up with several different ways to challenge the ubercharger and sprinkled them through-out the campaign. It meant that the other, less optimized players, had to enable the uber to do his thing sometimes. I don't think that was unfair to anyone.


it's a mobile base of sorts so there's lots of room.

Nice! Get him some "friends" in there. I actually really like the mental picture of the Fighter and Barb running into the clock to help the sorc.


As for the collapse stuff, if I were a victim of a cave-in I'd animate every single piece of rubble near me via the animated object's switching targets rule and have them all just walk away.

Every single piece of rubble around the AO would be pinned down by more rubble if two stories collapsed on you. I haven't checked but I'm guessing the switching targets rule can't be used to transfer control the the top most rubble first. Even then, suffocation is a real possibility.

I'm not suggesting you do a collapse though, unless it works as a plot point for a baddy to get away, or it's heavily warned (ex. "As you smash the door frame to widen it, the ceiling grounds and dust falls. Faint cracks start to show.").

[gogogome]

If there were a character that was 20ft tall, wpiod every building and house and dungeon have 20ft tall ceilings? It's totally unreasonable for a PC to expect a 20ft tall construct can fit everywhere they go. That would be like them.getti gusset they can't take their horse and buggy I'm with them. He chose to base his play off of a 20ft construct and that's going to have consequences.

The fact that he's bothering other players means this character needs to retire quickly.

That's what the colossal adamantine morning star is for, to make every dungeon have a 20ft tall hole through it.


With all this talk about creature counters, a Delver (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/delver.htm) dishes out huge numbers of damage to stone/metallic creatures, albeit CR ~10. Send it in as a boss or something.


Corrosive Slime (Ex)

A delver produces a mucuslike slime that contains a highly corrosive substance. The slime is particularly effective against stone. A delver’s mere touch deals 2d6 points of acid damage to organic creatures or objects. Against metallic creatures or objects, a delver’s slime deals 4d8 points of damage, and against stony creatures (including earth elementals) or objects it deals 8d10 points of damage. A slam attack by a delver leaves a patch of slime that deals 2d6 points of damage on contact and another 2d6 points of damage in each of the next 2 rounds. A large quantity (at least a quart) of water or weak acid, such as vinegar, washes off the slime. An opponent’s armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless the wearer succeeds on a DC 22 Reflex save. Weapons that strike a delver also dissolve immediately unless the wielder succeeds on a DC 22 Reflex save. A creature attacking a delver with natural weapons takes damage from its slime each time an attack hits unless the creature succeeds on a DC 22 Reflex save. These save DCs are Constitution-based.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


Every single piece of rubble around the AO would be pinned down by more rubble if two stories collapsed on you. I haven't checked but I'm guessing the switching targets rule can't be used to transfer control the the top most rubble first. Even then, suffocation is a real possibility.

If a person can lift boulders, he can just dig himself out of a cave-in right? One boulder at a time. Animate Objects lets the boulders come to life and move out of the way. He'll probably have to abandon the animated object at first while he escapes, but once he escapes he can just dig through all the rubble again but this time remove the rubble from the dungeon rather than just behind him and retrieve his damaged animated object.

I'll do a few encounters where the animated object can't reach, at most 25% of the encounters.

[Lapak]

If a person can lift boulders, he can just dig himself out of a cave-in right? One boulder at a time.
Not really. Not if the boulders closest to him have 15 other boulders on top of them. Unless you can move the whole load at once, or you are on the outside where you can take it apart, neither of which apply here.

I disagree that providing environments where he cannot take the 20-foot object is not letting him play the character. He has other resources, and if I were planning to play a build like that I would have animated objects for many occasions, not just the one. I'd want to have a man-sized construct I can animate and hide behind for going belowground or for stealth incursions. Actually, I'd want to build a third one out specifically for stealth. And probably one for aquatic environments. This is the kind of character that is focused but ALSO flexible, not an ubercharger that can literally only do one thing, and you're going much too easy by letting him run so far with the one trick.

[Deadline]

That's what the colossal adamantine morning star is for, to make every dungeon have a 20ft tall hole through it.

And there really aren't any structures that will remain standing for long. Sure, the AO driver can probably survive a collapsed structure, but the Barbarian and Fighter aren't going to do as well. Your insistence on letting him bring an enormous AO into tiny dungeons that should be collapsing on him and the party is partly responsible for the lack of fun your Barbarian and Fighter are having. Of course, having logical consequences to the AO player's actions are going to impact his fun.

Like it or not, the giant AO is going to limit the environments that party can adventure in.


If a person can lift boulders, he can just dig himself out of a cave-in right? One boulder at a time. Animate Objects lets the boulders come to life and move out of the way. He'll probably have to abandon the animated object at first while he escapes, but once he escapes he can just dig through all the rubble again but this time remove the rubble from the dungeon rather than just behind him and retrieve his damaged animated object.

I don't have my DMG handy, but I don't think that you can dig yourself out if you are buried in a cave-in. At best, I think there might be a strength check to free yourself, but if you fail that you're stuck and will slowly suffocate (assuming you survived the damage to begin with). Again, the AO player can probably animate his way out given enough time and air, but his party mates are probably screwed.

And just a note on the Wakfu expy - Nox spent a tremendous amount of time outside his construct. The player can do that too.

[gogogome]

And just a note on the Wakfu expy - Nox spent a tremendous amount of time outside his construct. The player can do that too.

Once he gets his teleportation and other spells he can, but Nox always had a billion minions with him at all times.

That's actually an interesting angle. Have the sorcerer bring a large number of weaker animated objects that "aid another" the fighter and barbarian's attack rolls, on top of flanking. I'll ask him about this. This will let him support the fighters while keeping his shtick sort of.

[Karl Aegis]

Why was hiding shot down? Tieflings get darkness as a spell-like ability, Rutterkin (FCI CR3), Juvenile Nabassu (FCI CR5) and Babaus get darkness at will. If the sorcerer doesn't get his spot check right the first round (-5 for being distracted because they're inside a moving object) they have to spend their move action trying to spot them (ravids only get a move action or an attack without their flight(su) ability) and then another move action to direct their animated object. The animated object itself doesn't make spot checks so your ravid needs to spend it's entire turn directing the object to attack a square.

Oh, ravids also can't cast spells without their flight (su) ability either because they're limited to a single move or attack action.


Once he gets his teleportation and other spells he can, but Nox always had a billion minions with him at all times.

That's actually an interesting angle. Have the sorcerer bring a large number of weaker animated objects that "aid another" the fighter and barbarian's attack rolls, on top of flanking. I'll ask him about this. This will let him support the fighters while keeping his shtick sort of.

You need to be able to use skills to aid another.

[gogogome]

Why was hiding shot down? Tieflings get darkness as a spell-like ability, Rutterkin (FCI CR3), Juvenile Nabassu (FCI CR5) and Babaus get darkness at will. If the sorcerer doesn't get his spot check right the first round (-5 for being distracted because they're inside a moving object) they have to spend their move action trying to spot them (ravids only get a move action or an attack without their flight(su) ability) and then another move action to direct their animated object. The animated object itself doesn't make spot checks so your ravid needs to spend it's entire turn directing the object to attack a square.

Oh, ravids also can't cast spells without their flight (su) ability either because they're limited to a single move or attack action.



You need to be able to use skills to aid another.

Where are you getting that mindless creatures can't use skills? They can't gain skills but they can use skills untrained, like any other creature.

Spells are an attack action. I'm not gonna go into a RAW debate here involving invisibility and other rules to argue but I am saying at my table "single action" is either a move or a standard action including using items or casting spells.

[Dimers]

Well, I don't know any medieval town, castle or even cathedral where a 20 ft cube could pass through.

Note: Being a creature, the AO can choose to squeeze, so it only needs 15'. Still a lot of places it won't fit, but that's a little better.


Phase Spiders inside with the pilot would be hilarious.

OhmygodIlovethatsomuch! :smallbiggrin:


Once he gets his teleportation and other spells he can (spend time outside his construct), but Nox always had a billion minions with him at all times.

That's actually an interesting angle. Have the sorcerer bring a large number of weaker animated objects that "aid another" the fighter and barbarian's attack rolls, on top of flanking. I'll ask him about this. This will let him support the fighters while keeping his shtick sort of.

Yeah, to keep things believable, that's bound to happen -- there will be some adventures where the massive animated objects are just not going to be usable. It's okay, he's still a sorcerer, he can be helpful in normal gameplay ... and if the martials' abilities are necessary for the sorcerer to survive during those scenes, that will help their players a lot.

[Eldariel]

Could you elaborate how those spells could challenge this player? And I think Shrink Item won't work because the Animated Object is a creature, not an item, and therefore doesn't have the energy resistance properties of a normal item (half from fire and lightning, quarter from cold). I don't want to reverse this ruling.

Shrink objects and use them against him. Shrunk (adamantine) poles or boulders that suddenly grow back to their ordinary size with some momentum can do nasty things. Explosive Runes, the basic idea is to just cast a ton of them on an object with very visible force energy fluctuations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#abjuration). The trigger, then, is to cast a Dispel Magic on it and fail. You can't do this yourself since you automatically succeed in your dispel checks against your own spells, but you can outsource it to anyone but yourself (including your familiar, something you've summoned or whatever). This detonates all the Explosive Runes which can create a very formidable bomb; all you need to do is throw it near the target and have it dispelled and watch it go boom.

Sepia Snake Sigil is more just a long-term prep spell that you can use as a rather efficient trap of sorts. These are some of the more typical prep spells on level 3 spells.

Of course, Alter Self + ASU can be used for much more than Ravid fun stuff - an Outsider (Neraphim Wizard for example) could also turn into...say Jovoc [MMII] for the retributive aura. Add to that a non-tanar'ri creature near you and Shield Other/Share Pain to loop some damage. Gets better with Delay Death (you don't have to die!) but a rather formidable nova without it, particularly if you have something expendable with Share Spells (sadly Familiar dying hurts but an Outsider familiar is doable and could be used to this end for example; symbionts are the usual subject of course). Just a random idea off the top of my head.

EDIT: Regarding attacking the Dex, it's worth noting that Construct type comes with immunity to ability damage and drain so you're severely restricted on that front (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType). It is, however, a huge hulking thing so touch attacks in general are a solid option. Funny that you should mention a charger; a level 6 charger (Orc, Half-Orc or Human for example) would be able to pose a very credible threat to the party (Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, optionally Valorous weapon for x2 extra and Battle Jump for x2 or mounted charge for x3). More than enough damage to punch through the Adamantine hardness though not enough to destroy the object in one go of course. Something like Warblade for some repositioning and doing it again. Another interesting option would be level 10 X 6/Frenzied Berserker 4 that can be immortal for the duration of their frenzy making them more of a puzzle encounter. Or a Cleric charger of any persuasion.


Once he gets his teleportation and other spells he can, but Nox always had a billion minions with him at all times.

That's actually an interesting angle. Have the sorcerer bring a large number of weaker animated objects that "aid another" the fighter and barbarian's attack rolls, on top of flanking. I'll ask him about this. This will let him support the fighters while keeping his shtick sort of.

Beware on this front. You're eking close to Nanobots territory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16924281) and those things can numerically break the game on their knee effortlessly.

[Menzath]

I saw it noted to take advantage of the AO lowest save(grease, etc) and that's a great point, I mean against a necromancer that knows one or two illusions, yeah this Thing could bulldoze through most mooks, only to hit air.

Or maybe fighting a similar type of build, like a power armor psion.

Also note that certain elements can get by a degree of hardness, or bypass it completely.

And even though that's his schtick, he should know that one trick ponies get greased and solid fogged.

And as noted by other posters, adamantine weapons breaking stuff, don't also suddenly destroy the laws of conservation of mass.
Breaking something above you means it's now in front/below you. That's reserved for disintegrate.

If they try to argue "but it has spiked feet! It's harder to trip!" I would ask, does it have stability(unless it already has 4 legs, then I'd ask if that gives it a ref. Save bonus).

And for the last, yes I think the price on your cost of adamantine is off. Doesnt the stronghold guide list that as solid cube costs?
For a weapon that would only account for the cost of the metal parts(normally just the head of a morning star) being made of metal.

[SirNibbles]

1. Is an oversight on my part. I will be bumping his speed down to 30ft.
2. I can see this working. The entire opposition keeps their distance and uses ranged attacks while continually moving back, forcing the party to fight without the gargantuan animated object, but the gargantuan animated object is not completely out of the fight, it's slowly inching forward forcing the enemies to constantly move back.
3. I don't allow dragon magazine content. Too much unrevised craziness to deal with.


Even without Bane of the Clockwork, you can Blood Wind + Pharaoh's Fist to stun anyone next to the AO without having to close distance, even if the AO itself is immune to stuns.

[tyckspoon]

There have been a couple good ideas here that haven't received much attention:
Swarms. Swarms are generally immune to weapon damage (so the morningstar just doesn't do anything to them unless they light it on fire). Most swarms deal damage automatically and not enough to get through hardness, so this is the threat you throw at the OTHER party members, because the tank just can't do much about them. The swarms ignore the tank and start causing problems for everyone else. Again, diversify the encounters so the tank is fighting some giant beast while the other party members get harassed by some swarms. A couple of Centipede Swarms (CR 4) with their Tremorsense and Poison should do the trick. Also remember that when the party is trivializing encounters, it's okay to set the CR bar a few notches higher to challenge them (and every encounter they trivialize with cheese should be fair game to give them experience for these high CR encounters with level appropriate XP).


Unless the construct is air-tight chances are a Swarm of sufficiently small creatures can reasonably get inside it and harass the Sorcerer that way - there are, presumably, gaps that allow for air exchange as well as some way for the Sorcerer to see outside of and direct the construct, and every sufficiently large opening in the outside of the construct is a way in for smaller beings. Something like Spiders or Centipedes probably wouldn't be a life-threatening event for the Sorcerer, but would likely be enough to provide a sense of insecurity and challenge to his feeling of being safe in his mobile armor.

[Pleh]

Rust Monsters sound like a good way to destroy that morning star to protect my dungeon, but I fear my player will just destroy the walls the slow way, with his 5 attacks that don't ignore hardness, because his animated object is his entire shtick and traversing an entire dungeon without it is same as not playing that character.

Fair enough, but if it were my table, I'd remind the player at that point that the only reason there's no rules for weapons taking damage from repeated, extensive stone demolition is because the game wasn't built with that kind of solution to be viable. It might not be RAW, but I'd feel comfortable telling my friends that I was adding the rule that attacks that don't ignore hardness will start taking damage themselves over time. Nothing they can't repair, given materials and downtime, but then I've got them dependent on how much time and raw materials I'm giving them access to and I've got some control back over the juggernaut (not much, but a *fair* amount).


Constructs are Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects so Malevolence wouldn't work since it's identical to Magic jar except for the receptacle bit.

You're right, but they could still do the Phase Spider thing and jump into the AO to mess with the sorcerer directly. Maybe they could try Malevolence on HIM.


Do you happen to have a source that acid damage ignores hardness? All I could find is that acid damage deals full damage to objects unlike the other energy types, nothing about ignoring hardness.

You're right, I misremembered how hardness worked.

The Grease Idea is still worthwhile. Even if you don't think the spell has much hope of being effective, there's nothing stopping you from applying the same effect to a whole room's flooring (it doesn't need to be flammable like grease to be just as slick).

In fact, I wonder how this AO would fair in an aquatic environment. It certainly can't swim without magical assistance, but I can't imagine it's airtight because the sorcerer needs to breathe. In fact, to "pilot" the thing, I imagine it must have at least one small window to look out through.

It could be fun to have an underwater river burst into the room, which might require the AO to brace the wall and keep the water from flooding in too quickly while the other party members fight monsters or secure the mcguffin or retreat to higher ground.

Remember the whole point behind, "adding elements the AO can't deal with" is specifically to make sure there's something important for the rest of your party to do. You clearly are perfectly fine with the character's power level and don't want to take away the toys, so what you need is to highlight exactly why this AO Tank needs a few friends along to help. Emphasize the things the tank can't handle (or things that ONLY the tank can handle mixed with more things than it can handle alone at once) and the other players now have a role to participate. All we're looking for here is something for the rest of the party to do that helps them enjoy the game.

Monsters/environments the tank can't handle is a great place to start. Monsters/environments that ONLY the tank can handle is the next step. The Tank has unbelievable hitpoints and hardness? Make them USE that from the fact that none of the party members themselves can afford to take such a blow. All we really want at the end of the day is for the players to look at each other at the end of the adventure day and say, "I'm really glad you were there with me for that one."

Heck, reward them for teaming up on the AO benefits. The Wizard should probably be sitting on the AO casting spells from a safe height well out of reach of the monsters. Why not throw the Barbarian into combat with a good old fastball special?

[Karl Aegis]

The phase spider wouldn't be able to get inside the animated object because of this rule:

Ending Your Movement
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#movingthroughaSqua re

[Pleh]

The phase spider wouldn't be able to get inside the animated object because of this rule:

Ending Your Movement
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#movingthroughaSqua re

Unless you are currently grappling in which case you technically always occupy the same square when you're grappling

So the phase spiders might grapple the pilot

[gogogome]

I'd like to take this time to just thank everyone who participated in this thread. Your suggestions have been most helpful. I'm starting to get a clear idea how to DM better so thanks. Encounter design is one of my biggest weaknesses.

Also I'd like to repeat that if I don't respond to an idea, it's because it's a good idea and I don't need any clarification not because I'm ignoring it for whatever reason. If I don't like an idea I will say it.


Beware on this front. You're eking close to Nanobots territory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16924281) and those things can numerically break the game on their knee effortlessly.

Like everything in d&d, everything in moderation. I talked to the player and he's open to the idea. He claims that his animated object is disassemblable so he can disassemble it into 2 huge creatures, which then becomes 4 large creatures, which then become 2 large and 4 medium creatures to aid another the fighter and barbarian for a +6 to their attack. He didn't mind using smaller animated objects, but he said their pathetic stats made them impracticle until the aid another thing I suggested.


And even though that's his schtick, he should know that one trick ponies get greased and solid fogged.

He enjoys getting greased and solid fogged. It makes him feel "powerful" (his words) because if the opposition has to blind and cripple him just to stay alive it makes him feel "powerful", and when the opposition run out of disables he says he can picture the fear on their faces as the giant clock reaches out his arms to tear all of them to shreds. So yeah he's not in it to deal damage, he's in it to be a frightening juggernaut, so he doesn't mind doing nothing except eat disables the entire fight.


If they try to argue "but it has spiked feet! It's harder to trip!" I would ask, does it have stability(unless it already has 4 legs, then I'd ask if that gives it a ref. Save bonus).

He doesn't do anything like that. He knows what he's doing is strong enough that he shouldn't ask for homebrew like that.


And for the last, yes I think the price on your cost of adamantine is off. Doesnt the stronghold guide list that as solid cube costs?
For a weapon that would only account for the cost of the metal parts(normally just the head of a morning star) being made of metal.

Stronghold guide I believe says adamantine is 20,000gp, but we have a clear example in the MiC that shows a large weapon had the +3,000gp added after the base weapon cost is doubled. So by RAW even colossal two-handed weapons only cost 3,000gp more than a non colossal weapon.


In fact, I wonder how this AO would fair in an aquatic environment. It certainly can't swim without magical assistance, but I can't imagine it's airtight because the sorcerer needs to breathe. In fact, to "pilot" the thing, I imagine it must have at least one small window to look out through.

It could be fun to have an underwater river burst into the room, which might require the AO to brace the wall and keep the water from flooding in too quickly while the other party members fight monsters or secure the mcguffin or retreat to higher ground.

If it were an aquatic environment I'm positive he'll switch to a wooden animated object.


Remember the whole point behind, "adding elements the AO can't deal with" is specifically to make sure there's something important for the rest of your party to do. You clearly are perfectly fine with the character's power level and don't want to take away the toys, so what you need is to highlight exactly why this AO Tank needs a few friends along to help. Emphasize the things the tank can't handle (or things that ONLY the tank can handle mixed with more things than it can handle alone at once) and the other players now have a role to participate. All we're looking for here is something for the rest of the party to do that helps them enjoy the game.

Monsters/environments the tank can't handle is a great place to start. Monsters/environments that ONLY the tank can handle is the next step. The Tank has unbelievable hitpoints and hardness? Make them USE that from the fact that none of the party members themselves can afford to take such a blow. All we really want at the end of the day is for the players to look at each other at the end of the adventure day and say, "I'm really glad you were there with me for that one."

Heck, reward them for teaming up on the AO benefits. The Wizard should probably be sitting on the AO casting spells from a safe height well out of reach of the monsters. Why not throw the Barbarian into combat with a good old fastball special?

I love what you said here, but the bolded part wouldn't work because the AO does more damage without resorting to this, and for out of ranged targets, I think the Barbarian won't survive the trip. This would be fall damage right? They get hefty very quickly.

[lord_khaine]

I don't want to do this unless as a last resort. He's having fun, like a lot, and he's not muchkining because he's a sorcerer instead of a wizard despite the wizard being a better fit for Nox's character concept.


I would like to challenge this central part. Namely that the player in question isnt a munchkin.
Because he is. He is playing a build copied directly from a forum. Already that should trigger warning bells.
Then it turns out said build seemingly makes use of some of the most abuseable mechanisms in the game. Traps. Something thats clearly (in my eyes) meant to be reserved for the DM. But instead are one of the central pillers of the TO world known as Tippyverse.

At this point i would already have asked him to make a PC himself instead of copying someone else. If he want to play Nox, then you could have told him to make a Warforged Psion.
It would be a -lot- closer to Nox than that aberation of a build. And not thrash though your dungeon.

Honestly. It seems most of all like he is having fun at the expense of the rest of the party. Who likely made their own characters and are now unable to measure up to him.

[gogogome]

Then it turns out said build seemingly makes use of some of the most abuseable mechanisms in the game. Traps. Something thats clearly (in my eyes) meant to be reserved for the DM. But instead are one of the central pillers of the TO world known as Tippyverse.

What traps? There are no traps.

edit:oh you mean the trap for the ghost build. He's using the otherworldly build so there are no traps. The trap is simply there to cast the spell on his own corpse. If you hire a spellcaster there is no need of the trap in that build. I don't require my PCs to use persuade to manifest to acquire the ghost template so that entire weird thing he's doing in that build is not required in my games.

[lord_khaine]

What traps? There are no traps.

edit:oh you mean the trap for the ghost build. He's using the otherworldly build so there are no traps. The trap is simply there to cast the spell on his own corpse. If you hire a spellcaster there is no need of the trap in that build. I don't require my PCs to use persuade to manifest to acquire the ghost template so that entire weird thing he's doing in that build is not required in my games.

Hmm.. alright.. so he only combines manifest supernatural ability, with alter self and the otherwordly feat.
Thats still a sarcastic -only- by the way.
I think each of those things are considered extremely broken/abuseable on their own.
And you then have a player who uses them in combination to copy a build he read about on the net, that lets him cast a level 6 spell at level 6.
I stand by my accusation. He is a munchkin.

And i dont doubt he is managing to hog a disproportionate amount of the spotligt in a regular party

edit.
I also doubt the price listed for the gartantuan adamantine mace. I think that has been calculated extremely leniently.
But Dungeon walls should generally be reinforced somehow. A skilled adventure dont need one to dig though walls. They should be filled with nasty traps.

[gogogome]

Hmm.. alright.. so he only combines manifest supernatural ability, with alter self and the otherwordly feat.
Thats still a sarcastic -only- by the way.
I think each of those things are considered extremely broken/abuseable on their own.
And you then have a player who uses them in combination to copy a build he read about on the net, that lets him cast a level 6 spell at level 6.
I stand by my accusation. He is a munchkin.

And i dont doubt he is managing to hog a disproportionate amount of the spotligt in a regular party

edit.
I also doubt the price listed for the gartantuan adamantine mace. I think that has been calculated extremely leniently.
But Dungeon walls should generally be reinforced somehow. A skilled adventure dont need one to dig though walls. They should be filled with nasty traps.

Just because a player uses an abusable, powerful, feature of 3.5 doesn't make him a munchkin. Wizards are the best example. In the hands of a munchkin they break games but in the hands of a casual player they're no better than martials. A dweomerkeeper using its Su ability for free elemental monoliths or force cages is hardly powerful but a dweomerkeeper using its su ability for free wishes is definitely munchkin. A dweomerkeeper using its su ability for free Permanency... I'd put it in the grey area. It does enable fun stuff like creation of fortresses out of wall of forces and an army of animated objects, but an army of animated objects can get out of hand.

Outsider with Assume Supernatural Ability is highly abusable like you said especially for free wishes, but as Eldariel showed with his examples, it's totally usable without abuse. So the difference between a munchkin and a non-munchkin is that they use this combo for something fun rather than infinite wishes.

The price for the colossal adamantine morningstar is RAW so it's not been calculated extremely leniently. The developers made it clear that it's +3,000gp regardless of weapon size as per the example in the MiC.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm also saying if you ban everything abusable in d&d 3.5 then you're left with... something much worse than d&d video games. Everything in 3.5 is abusable, it's how you use them that determines whether you're a munchkin or not.

[Lapak]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm also saying if you ban everything abusable in d&d 3.5 then you're left with... something much worse than d&d video games. Everything in 3.5 is abusable, it's how you use them that determines whether you're a munchkin or not.
I don't think anyone agrees with you on that point - but I think several disagree about whether the line is in front of or behind your player. For my money, he's well over it, but I don't object to that if it doesn't break the game.

But then again, you came here because it IS kind of breaking your game. On the third hand the suggestions you're favoring seem more like you're looking to engage in an arms race than to rein him in per se, so as long as you and the other players are having fun that's your prerogative. The other players are having fun, right?

[Karl Aegis]

How did your sorcerer get inside the animated object, anyways? Is your sorcerer always helpless or is the animated object always helpless? You can't end your movement in another creature's square unless that creature is helpless.

[lord_khaine]

No indeed, but thats the whole point. When a player is using those abilities he should be kept under a closer watch.
And as Lapak comments, then he is kinda breaking your game at the moment ?

I dont think the "he is just having fun" excuses him from not being a munchkin. Having free wishes are also fun.
About as fun as abusing supernatural abilities of exotic critters.

I did not look in the MIC, only the dmg, but if it has calculation examples then it have to be official.
What i am suggesting is just banning the abuse of abuseable things. And since i suspect this player has made the rest of his party mostly irellevant, then i think the line is crossed. There are much better ways of making Nox.


How did your sorcerer get inside the animated object, anyways? Is your sorcerer always helpless or is the animated object always helpless? You can't end your movement in another creature's square unless that creature is helpless.

Thats also an interesting point. I guess he can tie himself up? :smalltongue:

[gogogome]

But then again, you came here because it IS kind of breaking your game. On the third hand the suggestions you're favoring seem more like you're looking to engage in an arms race than to rein him in per se, so as long as you and the other players are having fun that's your prerogative. The other players are having fun, right?


No indeed, but thats the whole point. When a player is using those abilities he should be kept under a closer watch.
And as Lapak comments, then he is kinda breaking your game at the moment ?

It was breaking my game, but my default reaction is to get better rather than ban things. I believe if you always immediately ban things that upset you you'll never grow. I handled hydra polymorphers before, so I thought this is something I can deal with with a little outside help, and i believe I was right. This thread is rife with suggestions that I can use.


How did your sorcerer get inside the animated object, anyways? Is your sorcerer always helpless or is the animated object always helpless? You can't end your movement in another creature's square unless that creature is helpless.

If a house with people inside it get animated what happens? The people can't leave because all the doors and windows are shut, the people can move inside it but they can't end their movement inside the house because it's now a creature? Suddenly they're completely paralyzed and immobile inside the moving house even though they can be knocked around inside by animated bull-rushing furniture because the house is now a creature?

I don't engage in dysfunctional raw. As close as I try to stick to RAW, I draw the line at stabilizing people by drowning them, or traveling at light speed by mounting and dismounting horses.

[gogogome]

There are much better ways of making Nox. :

He likes Nox because of the clockwork creature inventor aspect rather than the time master. I agree that your build or other wizard builds with abrupt jaunt is a better fit for Nox the teleporting time mage, but for the clockwork master not even the artificer is viable. Animated Objects are one of those rare creatures where you can make the creature look like anything you want. The official clockwork creatures from the monster manuals are not viable for player use due to their construction requirements and lackluster stats.


I dont think the "he is just having fun" excuses him from not being a munchkin. Having free wishes are also fun.
About as fun as abusing supernatural abilities of exotic critters.

The build is heavily optimized. I recognize the author of the build. He's been posting a lot of threads about optimizing planar binding and getting early access to it, but I think the difference between a munchkin and a practical optimizer is their attitude rather than the end result of the build. He wanted a player-viable clockwork minion master, nothing more. He's not going mailman, he's not going incantatrix, he's not even going wizard because he's not interested in breaking the game. He is inexperienced however so he did not know how powerful the build is so I think him troubling me is unintentional.

I did think about asking him to get Girallon's blessing later in the game, but this is one of my last resorts.

[lord_khaine]

Well.. if he wanted to make clockwork minions then he should have went Effigy Master from Complete Arcane.

[gogogome]

Well.. if he wanted to make clockwork minions then he should have went Effigy Master from Complete Arcane.

I did suggest that at the beginning, except I suggested an artificer instead of an effigy master. He said he tried that with other DMs and he told me that DMs rarely stick by WBL, and if they miraculously do stick by WBL it's usually in the form of suboptimal magical gear instead of gp. He told me he couldn't get a relevant effigy up and running in time due to wealth or time constraints, and DMs think effigy = expendable so they kill it somehow with a beholder or some other form of disintegrate leaving him as a naked artificer most of the game. I tried to tell him I don't do that but he seems to have PTSD in this subject.

[Karl Aegis]

It really sounds like you're giving your player more power than the rules say they should have. There's not much we can help you with until we know how much of the core game has been changed.

Ending Your Movement
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

Cover
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

Soft Cover
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.

Big Creatures and Cover
Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.

Total Cover
If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.

Flight (Su)
A ravid can cease or resume flight as a free action. A ravid that loses this ability falls and can perform only a single action (either a move action or an attack action) each round.

Assume Supernatural Ability
You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect. The saving throw DC against this ability is based on your ability scores, not those of a standard creature of the kind whose form you've assumed. For a breath weapon, the saving throw DC is 10 + your Constitution modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). For all other supernatural abilities, the saving throw (if any) DC is 10 + your Charisma modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). If a creature, such as an undead, has no Constitution score, use its Charisma modifier or its Constitution modifier (+0 for a nonability), whichever is higher, to determine the save DC. Using this alien ability is disorienting. You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Additionally, in a stressful or demanding situation (such as combat), you must succeed on a Will save (DC 19) or be unable to use the ability.

[Pleh]

Ending Your Movement
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

You mean the artificer can't end his movement inside the AO's space? Rules for mounted combat cover this, don't they? Surely a mount and rider are allowed to cohabit space. This mount happens to also provide total cover.

[Karl Aegis]

You mean the artificer can't end his movement inside the AO's space? Rules for mounted combat cover this, don't they? Surely a mount and rider are allowed to cohabit space. This mount happens to also provide total cover.

You can't direct it to attack something you can't see. Are you just telling it to hit everything, including allies?

[gogogome]

Nothing about the core rule has changed.

The player is inside the AO, looking outside through a small window that blocks line of effect but not line of sight, and directs the AO's actions. He is limited to a single action at all times due to being unable to fly, and he's been making saves every round in combat because of the assume supernatural ability.

I think you're misinterpreting the RAW. You claimed mindless creatures cannot use skills, you claimed spells are not an "attack action", you claimed creatures cannot be inside other creatures when even the monster manuals have examples of creatures being inside other creatures, etc.

[ericgrau]

Don't try to make encounters that target his build. That's heavy handed and really hard to pull off without hurting the less optimized players even more than him. Since he's doing it for the fun not power, nerf his build and keep going. I'd avoid making him retire the character except as a last resort. Try looking at each ability and nerf whatever is above par for the level back down to par. I only skimmed the link but it looks like Girallon's Blessing is a major part of it. I think you need to nerf the spell damage and/or make it scale properly so that it does less at low level but still keeps up at higher level. But I haven't taken a good look at the spell.

I'd do that in general with any ability that's significantly too strong, to keep things even for the whole party.

[Pleh]

You claimed mindless creatures cannot use skills

Maybe this is referring to the SRD description of Intelligence:


A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.

They don't "gain" skills, but the can still have racial bonuses.

Classic example: oozes are typically mindless, yet some have racial bonus to climb (and can even take 10 while distracted or threatened).

[RoboEmperor]

1. You don't need to make a 20ft hole. You only need a 10ft hole and squeeze through.
2. You're squeezing most of the time, so attack is reduced to +11.
3. Multiple attacks at +11 shouldn't be an issue, especially later levels.
4. This is the peak of the build. Investiture of the Steel Devil would give +3 to attack later, but that's it. It ain't getting stronger than that, so let the player have its moment of awesomeness before he stops doing any damage because of incorpreal, concealment, high ac, etc.
5. This is a T3 build. Not T2 or T1. My build's damage output, especially later in the game, is much worse than an ubercharger. If and only if the player starts abusing Planar Binding does it become T1.

[Yahzi]

escaping the collapse over the course of a day or two
You know what a tank trap is? It's a chunk of concrete shaped like a saw-tooth. It could halt even the most powerful tanks in WWII. Just because something is an armored death machine doesn't mean it can't be trapped.


Since a gargantuan amount of adamantine according to the stronghold builder's guide is 20,000gp, but this gargantuan sized morning star (onehanded weapons are 1 size smaller than the size of the creature it is intended for) costs 3,054gp, I ruled it that this adamantine morning star is mostly steel but has a fully adamantine shell in order to prevent my players from using dysfunctional RAW from gaining infinite wealth (build the morning star with 1,018gp, smelt it, and sell it for 10,000gp).
If the weapon is one size category smaller, then why is it 20K worth of adamantium? Shouldn't it be one size category smaller's worth?

We'll just skip over how they found a smith capable of creating such an epic weapon.


It's not that big either, it fits within a 20ft cube.
A really, really deep pit trap. With smooth stone walls. And full of water. Let's see the Climb skill on that thing. Before the guy trapped inside drowns...

[RoboEmperor]

If the weapon is one size category smaller, then why is it 20K worth of adamantium? Shouldn't it be one size category smaller's worth?

We'll just skip over how they found a smith capable of creating such an epic weapon.

The build and the player are using a Colossal Morning Star. Colossal Morning Stars are meant to be used as one handed weapons for a Colossal creature, but can be used as a two-handed weapon for a Gargantuan creature.

And they didn't find a smith. The build has Unseen Crafter as the sorcerer's 5th level spell. The Sorcerer crafted the weapon with 84 unseen crafters using improvised tools.

[lord_khaine]

I did suggest that at the beginning, except I suggested an artificer instead of an effigy master. He said he tried that with other DMs and he told me that DMs rarely stick by WBL, and if they miraculously do stick by WBL it's usually in the form of suboptimal magical gear instead of gp. He told me he couldn't get a relevant effigy up and running in time due to wealth or time constraints, and DMs think effigy = expendable so they kill it somehow with a beholder or some other form of disintegrate leaving him as a naked artificer most of the game. I tried to tell him I don't do that but he seems to have PTSD in this subject.

I honestly think you should have been firmer with him. It seems he mostly just wanted an excuse to play his rather broken build.
The wealth/time bit certainly sounds like a bad excuse. He can get time to bend the rules so hard they creak creating a walking tank with 20k of adamantine weapon, but he cant get time to make a pair of clockwork lions?

[RoboEmperor]

I honestly think you should have been firmer with him. It seems he mostly just wanted an excuse to play his rather broken build.
The wealth/time bit certainly sounds like a bad excuse. He can get time to bend the rules so hard they creak creating a walking tank with 20k of adamantine weapon, but he cant get time to make a pair of clockwork lions?

Its not a broken build. It's a T3 build. "Good at one thing & useful outside that, or moderately useful at most things." While normally a T2 class, this build makes the sorcerer good at buffing and only buffing, and even then the buffed up creature performs worse than the Ubercharger, which is solid t3.

Also he did not bend any rules.


Dwarf Crusher
...
Cost to Create: 6,000 gp (plus 3,010 gp for Large adamantine greatclub), 240 XP, 6 days.

Notice how this 1st party widely used 3.5 book directly says a Large Adamantine Weapon has its +3,000gp modifier added after the size multiplier for the weapon, not before. So how is this "bending the rules so hard they creak"?

[Troacctid]

It's well within the rules AFAICT. I'm mostly just skeptical that smashing dungeon corridors would be an effective way to widen them rather than just collapsing them and making them impassable.

[RoboEmperor]

It's well within the rules AFAICT. I'm mostly just skeptical that smashing dungeon corridors would be an effective way to widen them rather than just collapsing them and making them impassable.

Do you happen to have a better method in mind? There are no rules for pickaxes. If we're to use something pointy instead like a sickle or a spear instead of a wrecking ball like a morningstar or a mace, would that make it more effective/safe in your opinion? The rules don't differentiate between a pickaxe and a morningstar for corridor widening.

[Troacctid]

Do you happen to have a better method in mind? There are no rules for pickaxes. If we're to use something pointy instead like a sickle or a spear instead of a wrecking ball like a morningstar or a mace, would that make it more effective/safe in your opinion? The rules don't differentiate between a pickaxe and a morningstar for corridor widening.
There's probably some magic or other that would let you do it, but really the simple answer is to just get a smaller object as a backup and leave the big one outside.

[RoboEmperor]

There's probably some magic or other that would let you do it, but really the simple answer is to just get a smaller object as a backup and leave the big one outside.

If 2 squares are too big for a corridor then you can't use Huge animated objects either, forcing you to use Large ones, which have a +5 to hit, and squeezing reduces it to +1, meaning it's totally worthless as a beatstick even at level 6.

AOs have to be gargantuan (or maybe, maaaaaaybe huge) to be viable for combat.

[Troacctid]

If 2 squares are too big for a corridor then you can't use Huge animated objects either, forcing you to use Large ones, which have a +5 to hit, and squeezing reduces it to +1, meaning it's totally worthless as a beatstick even at level 6.

AOs have to be gargantuan (or maybe, maaaaaaybe huge) to be viable for combat.
Turn into something other than a ravid, then, I suppose? Beats me.

Builds that rely on massive pets are fun, but it turns out sometimes adventures take place indoors. If you don't have a good contingency plan for this (usually fairly common) situation, you end up having to leave the pet behind. It's sad, but it happens.

[RoboEmperor]

Turn into something other than a ravid, then, I suppose? Beats me.

Builds that rely on massive pets are fun, but it turns out sometimes adventures take place indoors. If you don't have a good contingency plan for this (usually fairly common) situation, you end up having to leave the pet behind. It's sad, but it happens.

If the adamantine morningstar is unsatisfactory then there's always the shrink collar from AEG however this forces you to stay outside your AO instead of inside. This would kill its reach but boost its attack to +20 while leaving its damage untouched.

Or make the AO out of rope. Rope AOs are high abusable by RAW. 50ft hempen rope is gargantuan, if it folds itself in half its huge, and folded half again its large.

There's many many many ways to go about this.

In anycase turning into something other than a ravid defeats the whole purpose of the build.

[SnugUndies]

Nothing to really contribute here, I just wanted to say it's really cool that someone in your campaign is playing as (someone similiar to) Nox! In the game I'm playing right now one of the other players is doing the very same thing - though he's doing so by playing a Warforged Cleric with the Time and Planning domains (as these are among the domains offered by Xelor!) That said, I recognize that your player in question was more interested in the mobile base aspect of the character, while we figured the time theme was much more pertinent.

Still, very cool coincidence. I hope you find a solution to your gaming woes!

[gogogome]

I hope you find a solution to your gaming woes!

I did.

The problem as I now see it is just a mundane overshadowed by caster problem. The wizard and the cleric don't mind especially since the wizard is just BFC and the cleric intends on maximizing DMM:Persist later so he doesn't mind being overshadowed right now.

Generally, I took someonenoone11's advice and told the player to widen corridors by 5ft instead of bashing 20ft holes in everything to prevent cave-ins. The fights generally go... widen corridor, mundanes fight anything that invades from the next room, and then once the corridor is widened the gargantuan animated object squeezes through and engages the enemies. So for the good part of the fight the gargantuan animated object is occupied and then comes in to clean things up.

I've come up with a lot of encounters using the suggestions from this thread and yeah, I don't see a problem.

The mundanes refused to go a power attack charger so they will inevitably fall off, especially once the cleric comes online, but that's really their fault imo. In this case the majority are optimized spellcasters so the minority unoptimized mundanes should step it up instead of the majority toning down.

[lord_khaine]

Its not a broken build. It's a T3 build. "Good at one thing & useful outside that, or moderately useful at most things." While normally a T2 class, this build makes the sorcerer good at buffing and only buffing, and even then the buffed up creature performs worse than the Ubercharger, which is solid t3.

Also he did not bend any rules.

The Ubercharger is in itself is a broken build. Turning the game into even more rocket tag. And at the same time escalating the melee race to more or less leave any regular melee build obselete.
I certainly do think that when you have unlimited use of a level 6 spell at level 6, then the rules have abused to the point of bending.


The mundanes refused to go a power attack charger so they will inevitably fall off, especially once the cleric comes online, but that's really their fault imo. In this case the majority are optimized spellcasters so the minority unoptimized mundanes should step it up instead of the majority toning down.

I do think there is a bit of a problem though, when the mundanes are more or less forced to either take on a rather specific playstyle or become obselete.
But you could either suggest them remaking to a Warblade.
Or steer them towards this forum for some advice.

[Eldariel]

The Ubercharger is in itself is a broken build. Turning the game into even more rocket tag. And at the same time escalating the melee race to more or less leave any regular melee build obselete.

Eh, if going by power, normal melee builds are obsolete the second anyone picks a tier 1-2 class. Casters melee better than melee classes while still having their full spellcasting progression. Chargers are just a way to try and give noncasters a niche, one small thing they can do, in a game with casters with the gentleman's agreement that casters don't choose to do that thing better than the noncasters. Chargers are just one of the numerous ways to oneshot anything within the rules; that's really easy, all things considered, since damage multiplication is commonplace but HP multiplication not so much (Vigor and Share Pain is about the only way). Even core has Spirited Charge, True Strike and Power Attack which can lead to close to 300 damage in a single hit. At the same time, other mundane builds can fight chargers just fine; Counter Charge, Elusive Target, various AoO/Sidestep setups and so on make it fairly easy to avoid taking the brunt of a charge. However, said builds are reactive rather than proactive which causes issues since you can only react to what you're prepared for while proactive plan works against anything making such builds more specialised.

[lord_khaine]

Eh, if going by power, normal melee builds are obsolete the second anyone picks a tier 1-2 class. Casters melee better than melee classes while still having their full spellcasting progression. Chargers are just a way to try and give noncasters a niche, one small thing they can do, in a game with casters with the gentleman's agreement that casters don't choose to do that thing better than the noncasters. Chargers are just one of the numerous ways to oneshot anything within the rules; that's really easy, all things considered, since damage multiplication is commonplace but HP multiplication not so much (Vigor and Share Pain is about the only way). Even core has Spirited Charge, True Strike and Power Attack which can lead to close to 300 damage in a single hit. At the same time, other mundane builds can fight chargers just fine; Counter Charge, Elusive Target, various AoO/Sidestep setups and so on make it fairly easy to avoid taking the brunt of a charge. However, said builds are reactive rather than proactive which causes issues since you can only react to what you're prepared for while proactive plan works against anything making such builds more specialised.

Yes. That is the case in the hellish optimisation of the giant boards. Number/build wise i cant argue with you. Though i will point out it takes a serious bit of building to melee better than the dedicated classes while remaining a full caster with access to level 9 spells.

And out in actual games i have only seen it when there have also been a sizeable experiene different between the tier 1-2 player and the melee player.

[martixy]

It was breaking my game, but my default reaction is to get better rather than ban things. I believe if you always immediately ban things that upset you you'll never grow. I handled hydra polymorphers before, so I thought this is something I can deal with with a little outside help, and i believe I was right. This thread is rife with suggestions that I can use.

First, I want to mention this is a very admirable attitude.

Second, while you said you are satisfied with the results of this thread, reading through it, I feel you're being way too dismissive of terrain and seem to hold very little respect for the power of scale. I.e. you are severely underestimating the forces, mass and energies involved at larger-than-human scale. Remember for example, that a double increase in linear dimensions of something leads to an 8-fold increase in its mass, consequently 8 times more power is required to move it, etc. (Also, this is merely an example to illustrate my point on the power of scale.)

[RoboEmperor]

The Ubercharger is in itself is a broken build. Turning the game into even more rocket tag. And at the same time escalating the melee race to more or less leave any regular melee build obselete.
I certainly do think that when you have unlimited use of a level 6 spell at level 6, then the rules have abused to the point of bending.

On one hand it's actually worse than you think. It's not only unlimited use of a level 6 spell at level 6, it's also at caster level 20. So you have unlimited access to a level 6 spell cast by a level 20 character at level 6.

On the other hand, I have never seen anyone actually cast animate object in combat. It's not hard to see why. It is an absolutely terrible spell. Summon Monster VI summons creatures significantly more powerful than a Huge Animated Object especially with feats. Even if you can permanency it absolutely no one uses it because a dispel magic will end your massive monetary investment into it. Not to mention at level 11 you start seeing disintegrate on opponents. And you need to have a huge object nearby which means you gotta lug around that heavy thing or just leave everything to luck.

In addition, a Ravid, a cr5 creature, has it, and I have never seen or heard anyone say Ravids are broken or OP. So from this perspective my build isn't broken. I mean I'm not using some loophole or rule lawyering. It's just straight up a Su ability on a 3hd cr5 creature. So I'm just a ravid that trades out all of his other abilities for sorcerer spellcasting.


Yes. That is the case in the hellish optimisation of the giant boards. Number/build wise i cant argue with you. Though i will point out it takes a serious bit of building to melee better than the dedicated classes while remaining a full caster with access to level 9 spells.

It does not take a serious bit of building to melee better than dedicated classes that don't go charger while remaining a full caster with access to level 9 spells.
Theres...
1. Abjurant Champion + Eldritch Knight. Hardly a complicated build.
2. Polymorph into Hydra.
3. Natural Spell Druid (just 1 feat)
4. Clerics even if they don't go DMM:Persist. 3/4 BAB with buffs and spells will out melee barbarians.

There's a reason why everyone hates 3.5's mundanes. No charging = worthless mundanes after low levels (generally speaking. I'm aware there are some really great mundane builds that don't use charging or power attack). Hell, Blasters out damage and trivialize mundane's damage output.

[gogogome]

The Ubercharger is in itself is a broken build. Turning the game into even more rocket tag. And at the same time escalating the melee race to more or less leave any regular melee build obselete..

I make my Uberchargers work for their ubercharge. Terrain has lots and lots of rough patches. Encounters are high numbered so using shocktrooper carelessly is suicidal. What usually happens is our spellcasters wall up and divide the encounter, remove rough terrain or give the charger flight, and then they can start ubercharging one creature at a time who sometimes have evasion.


I do think there is a bit of a problem though, when the mundanes are more or less forced to either take on a rather specific playstyle or become obselete.
But you could either suggest them remaking to a Warblade.
Or steer them towards this forum for some advice.

Sadly, some players just don't want to try that hard. I did recommend they ask this very forum on how to optimize their character concept, but they did not heed my advice saying they're here to play for fun rather than try hard. Not their exact words but that's how I interpreted it. Casual roleplay heavy players who don't really give an effort on the mechanical side of things. I foresee some problems in the future, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.


Second, while you said you are satisfied with the results of this thread, reading through it, I feel you're being way too dismissive of terrain and seem to hold very little respect for the power of scale. I.e. you are severely underestimating the forces, mass and energies involved at larger-than-human scale. Remember for example, that a double increase in linear dimensions of something leads to an 8-fold increase in its mass, consequently 8 times more power is required to move it, etc. (Also, this is merely an example to illustrate my point on the power of scale.)

I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Could you elaborate?

[JyP]

Second, while you said you are satisfied with the results of this thread, reading through it, I feel you're being way too dismissive of terrain and seem to hold very little respect for the power of scale. I.e. you are severely underestimating the forces, mass and energies involved at larger-than-human scale. Remember for example, that a double increase in linear dimensions of something leads to an 8-fold increase in its mass, consequently 8 times more power is required to move it, etc. (Also, this is merely an example to illustrate my point on the power of scale.)
For me, D&D rules are not very good with the power of scale anyway - as this is stone animated through magic, I would not go through weight shenanigans. Whenever I did an Obelix build, using Complete Warrior estimates, a menhir or very thick granite stone door, for a volume around 2,2 m × 140 cm × 70 cm, woud weight 5.4 metric tons. It would do 52d6 damage if thrown.

[Nifft]

I couldn't find the words "infest" or "infestation" in the previous few pages.

This gargantuan construct is someone's home, right? They eat in it, and store food in it?

So it's probably going to get infested with rats / mice / monstrous spiders who feed on rats & mice / etc.

Diseases might be a thing. Some kind of rat-o-mancer might turn the pre-existing rats into a swarm (which is already inside).

Demon roaches might start making snarky comments.

[RoboEmperor]

I couldn't find the words "infest" or "infestation" in the previous few pages.

This gargantuan construct is someone's home, right? They eat in it, and store food in it?

So it's probably going to get infested with rats / mice / monstrous spiders who feed on rats & mice / etc.

Diseases might be a thing. Some kind of rat-o-mancer might turn the pre-existing rats into a swarm (which is already inside).

Demon roaches might start making snarky comments.

Survival Check.
Horse Meat from the mount spell.
Everlasting Rations.
Trail Rations.

I think all of these are impervious to rat infestations. Because there is no long term storage for food for the rats to eat.

[Nifft]

Survival Check.
Horse Meat from the mount spell.
Everlasting Rations.
Trail Rations.

I think all of these are impervious to rat infestations. Because there is no long term storage for food for the rats to eat.

The mount spell isn't a source of food, that's just dumb. Seriously read up on how that magic works: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning

But that's irrelevant. If you've got one or more people eating above heavy machinery, and the eating happens every day, then you're going to get food in the heavy machinery.

The infestation would be better-fed if it could get at your iron rations and/or trail rations -- which are very much NOT impervious, else modern ships wouldn't have rats.


Anyway, I think an infestation could be an interesting challenge.

Hopefully the players will get somewhat creative in solving it.

[RoboEmperor]

The mount spell isn't a source of food, that's just dumb. Seriously read up on how that magic works: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning

1. Nonlethally knock out the mount.
2. Cut a steak sized chunk of muscle out of its unconscious body.
3. Cook the chunk of muscle.
4. Eat the cooked chunk of muscle!

Digestion takes 6 hours, so from CL3+ you can start using mount to feed yourself!

As long as you don't kill the horse the meat doesn't go poof while in your digestive track.