Wizards not for blasting

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Im used to playing sorcerers and this time around i figured id roll a wizard. First thing that hit me in the face was Book keeping. The pages are real. I was so used to "oh i'll cast this and this with these meta magics". As a wizard? " i need a debuff and a control and a etc. etc." it was mind boggling. Never mind keeping proper count of spells per level and what i had and spells to cast.

Then the specializations and what schools to drop and what schools to never ever ever drop.

And the one thing i have seen in all "unoffical and offical" Wizards arent meant to be blasters. you want to be a blaster go roll a Sorcerer or X class.

After reading the guides i can see why. wizards are great Battle control/debuff or even mass summoning. But they also have some of the best Aoe/Blast spells. Did I miss something that makes "blaster wizards" terrible?

[Mordaedil]

Limited number of spells per day. The good thing for blasters is that they reduce hit points but they burn slots doing so. The sorcerer has more than enough to accomplish this, while for a wizard, his slots are better spent increasing the damage on his party members or disabling the enemies, since that technically builds up to a lot more numbers than straight up damage.

There's also the fact that the wizard can't spontaneously change his element on the fly in response to resistant enemies, while that isn't a big issue for a sorcerer.

[Rebel7284]

There are a number of reasons blasting is bad.

1. Everyone else in your party can do damage, only you can do everything else.
2. Spells like Polymorph, Haste, or even Enlarge Person are likely to deal more damage than blasting spells.
3. An enemy that is at one HP can kill you as well as an enemy at full HP, so often blasting doesn't have any actual effect unless the enemy is dead. Battlefield control, on the other hand, will often disable multiple opponents at the same time.
4. Because blasting is less effective on average, you will typically need to dedicate more spell slots to it than if you were solving encounters in other ways. It can also be more difficult to decide exactly how many and what type of blasting spells you need to prepare since you have less tactical choices than a sorcerer.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Ive seen people talking about using uttercold only if going necromancer. I was planning on being a Cold caster with effigy bodyguard. Any specific build that focuses on necromancer/utter cold? or one of those best if I just got sorcerer if i want to go casting vs Battlecontrol/buffing/debuffing/team buffing?

[AvatarVecna]

Wizard, very generally speaking (and this is more true for low/mid op than high-op) is good in two situations:

1) When they have prepared versatile spells that are useful and powerful in a variety of circumstances.

2) When they have had the time and resources to determine the challenges they will face in the immediate future and have prepared their spell slots to deal with those challenges.

Now, most games at the table won't see the wizard waking up in the middle of the night to prepare a hundred divination spells to find out what we're fighting today so he can prepare his real spells for the day accordingly; most games, the wizard will have a vague idea of the adventure of the week (or a slightly better idea of the dangers to come, if this is more of a themed campaign/adventure path), so they won't be able to have the exact perfect combat spells prepared - at least, not the blasting ones. I'm currently playing a Wizard 8 for a RL game, and while my lists of possible spells are quite vast, I have thus far mostly ended up preparing the same spells quite frequently, and using them in combat in various combinations (Greater Invisibility on the Rogue, Stinking Cloud/Obscuring Mist/Black Tentacles on the group of enemies/in the chokepoint, Haste on my whole team, Enlarge Person on the Paladin, etc). This is because those spells are useful in most combats, partially by working off my teammates, and partially by being powerful Battlefield Control spells. Most fights, as long as my allies are semi-competent, I can buff them up and let them whack the enemy with sticks until we win. In fights with large groups my friends can't deal with super-quick, I lock them down, or make it so they can't do much, even if there's a whole bunch of them. This is a surprisingly effective combination in most games, because the DM isn't a **** that tries to negate tactics via Fiat and perfect planning.

On a related note, blasting has two general issues:

1) Poorly-scaling damage (both CL-scaling and spell level scaling)

2) Requires two successes on your part to deal the damage (general SR+save fail or SR+touch attack)

...which metamagic adds three problems to:

3) Low save DCs

4) Even worse damage-scaling

5) Metamagic is far too expensive for the effect it gives, almost across the board

Okay, 4 and 5 are kinda due to the same thing, but you get the point. That's not to say metamagic isn't worth taking, just that it's not something you decide ahead of time that you're absolutely for sure using unless it's a really good metamagic on a spell that pairs well with it...and blasting spells aren't "generally good" enough on their own to be worth metamagicking first thing in the morning just on general principles. Let's take an insultingly simple example: you're a wizard with Fireball and Energy Substitution (Cold). Do you prepare a Fireball, or a Coldball in that 3rd lvl slot? The sorcerer takes slightly longer to cast the latter than the former, but if the wizard prepares the wrong one, he needs either 15 minutes or 8 hours to fix that...and since that's not gonna happen in the middle of a fight, he's effectively just completely wasted a slot on bad guesswork.

If you made a sorcerer who had every metamagic feat in existence, he could create just about any spell you could imagine on the fly, as long as he had the slots for it. If you made a wizard who had every metamagic feat in existence, it wouldn't change much because you as the player had to choose which metamagic to apply to which spell first thing in the morning, and only have so many slots to prepare options in (slots which are competing with all your non-blasting spells as well). Choose wisely!

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Our game went from a tradional growing into power game. Into a gm swap into a Evil campaign of 30+ level game of lets play hunt the gods. We have a demi god Cleric orc of Grumish who now is seeking to kill the god he once followed. A monk who can literally "walk" into the gods domain to see where they are at/hiding. A stealthy caster/Assain rogue. A Drow necromancer wizard (lots of minions and casting death/evilness) A Very CN Elf ranger/druid with a dire "panther". And then there is me was was trying to be a elemental/wizard with effigy minions.


So im literally trying to figure how to be effective in the new madness our Gm threw at us.

[Malroth]

Ok, to play a wizard on the level of that kind of table, Divination and Minion mastery is king. Don't go adventuring yourself. Cast Genesis to get your own private demiplane, Create a Simulacra of a Nightmare and use it's Astral Projection ability to send your dream self to adventure for you. Spend days at a time researching what your enemies offensive abilities are with divination spells and then either summon things that they can't hurt or make yourself invunerable to harm before attempting to engage the enemy.

[Troacctid]

There are a number of reasons blasting is bad.

1. Everyone else in your party can do damage, only you can do everything else.
Blasting spells are still one of the most efficient damage delivery methods around. There's a pretty good chance you'll be better at dealing damage than anyone else. A blasting spell that deals only 1d6 damage per level is already hitting for about as much as two sneak attacks from a Rogue of the same level, while also being more accurate.


2. Spells like Polymorph, Haste, or even Enlarge Person are likely to deal more damage than blasting spells.
Not if you're dealing with groups of enemies. Fireball might only roll an average damage of 35, but if you hit four enemies with it, that's 140 damage in a single standard action, and even if you "miss," it still deals half.


3. An enemy that is at one HP can kill you as well as an enemy at full HP, so often blasting doesn't have any actual effect unless the enemy is dead. Battlefield control, on the other hand, will often disable multiple opponents at the same time.
On the other hand, pretty much every enemy in the game will go down if you hit it with enough damage, which makes it a pretty universal strategy. And few conditions disable an enemy more effectively than the "Dead" condition. Besides, it's not like every archer and beatstick doesn't have the exact same problem.


4. Because blasting is less effective on average, you will typically need to dedicate more spell slots to it than if you were solving encounters in other ways. It can also be more difficult to decide exactly how many and what type of blasting spells you need to prepare since you have less tactical choices than a sorcerer.
This is on point, though. It's hard to predict how many blasting spells you'll need on a given day, and they tend to consume spell slots more quickly because of their instantaneous and highly stackable nature. This means that spontaneous casters have a significant advantage when blasting.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

I think I will Find the right ground to sit out to be a useful character (if need switching to sorcerer) And if not just seeing the broken cheesyness i think made me sick of eatting nachos. lol


Im not sure how much "cheese" my DM will accept before he trys to force a DND book down my gullet. (and i cant cast Hoard Gullet)

Thank you for your point of views and informations regarding How to properly "wizard"

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's not so much that a wizard can't be a solid blaster, per se, but they're flatly worse at it than a sorcerer pushed to the same degree until you start to hit the level of optimization where -all- the casters start to blur together.

The sorc gets more spells per day, read; ammo, and the fact they get to choose on the fly makes resistances much, much less of an issue. That alone is a big deal even before you consider that a well played wizard doesn't fill all his slots at the beginning of the day. You can make up these shortcomings but they'll cost you elsewhere.

[DMVerdandi]

I think I will Find the right ground to sit out to be a useful character (if need switching to sorcerer) And if not just seeing the broken cheesyness i think made me sick of eatting nachos. lol


Im not sure how much "cheese" my DM will accept before he trys to force a DND book down my gullet. (and i cant cast Hoard Gullet)

Thank you for your point of views and informations regarding How to properly "wizard"

One thing that you can do to put consistent damage that isn't weapon damage onto the enemy is by using reserve feats.
Sure, you kind of cap out at Dx * Level of spell prepared, but at worst, it's infinite crossbow damage, and at best it's 9dx, which is equal to a warlock's eldritch blast.


But actually discharging spells over and over for straight damage? No. Not worth it.
Something like cloud-kill, and other Debuff/Damage spells are great though. Nothing wrong with killing the enemy, but at least try to debilitate the enemy at the same time, which will make it easier for everyone to kill the enemy, and stops the enemy from doing damage.

Sure you can outright kill one, or you can cause many to drop out of the fight, which is effectively killing all of those targeted.

[Troacctid]

Reserve feats are actually very good if you're blasting because you get a lot of mileage out of the CL boost.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

That is a very good point. Reserve feats will let me be "blaster ish" for a single spell and holding a slot. Thanks yall


@Troacctid

I use your PC list you posted and edited up on here! <3 it helped me allot!

[Eldariel]

It's not so much that a wizard can't be a solid blaster, per se, but they're flatly worse at it than a sorcerer pushed to the same degree until you start to hit the level of optimization where -all- the casters start to blur together.

The sorc gets more spells per day, read; ammo, and the fact they get to choose on the fly makes resistances much, much less of an issue. That alone is a big deal even before you consider that a well played wizard doesn't fill all his slots at the beginning of the day. You can make up these shortcomings but they'll cost you elsewhere.

Eh, Focused Specialist gets just as many but half a level ahead leaving the Sorc in dust slot-wise.

[Mordaedil]

Eh, Focused Specialist gets just as many but half a level ahead leaving the Sorc in dust slot-wise.

At the cost of 3 shools of magic, which is arguably pretty rough.

Also 3 spell slots reserved only for one school of magic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Eh, Focused Specialist gets just as many but half a level ahead leaving the Sorc in dust slot-wise.

And a kobold sorcerer can use the greater draconic rite of passage to close that half-level gap without giving up schools of magic. Point; sorcerer.

You've missed the point. I said that wizards -can- do it as well as sorcerers but it costs them things. 3 schools of magic is a -very- non-trivial cost just to match the number of blasts the sorc can belt out without giving up anything at all. That half of those are locked into either evocation or conjuration is also a pretty big deal.

[Selene Sparks]

Blasting spells are still one of the most efficient damage delivery methods around. There's a pretty good chance you'll be better at dealing damage than anyone else. A blasting spell that deals only 1d6 damage per level is already hitting for about as much as two sneak attacks from a Rogue of the same level, while also being more accurate.No, it really isn't. A charger will always do more damage, and that's where damage is really at. Comparing it to rogues is actually a good point, though, because, like basic blasting, rogues don't work. Everything's immune to them, and they almost never do level-appropriate damage even then.

On the other hand, it's pretty simple to put together a barbarian or the like that puts out over 100 damage on a charge by level 6.

Not if you're dealing with groups of enemies. Fireball might only roll an average damage of 35, but if you hit four enemies with it, that's 140 damage in a single standard action, and even if you "miss," it still deals half. Yes, and CR10 things have, on average, 136.5hp. Even CR7 things, four which would be a basic CR10 encounter, have 87HP on average. In other words, your fireball has absolutely no chance of taking anyone out of the fight. HP, on average, up until level 15~, goes up by around 12.5HP per CR increase. Damage goes up by 3.5 per CL. It's pretty obvious that direct damage, without building yourself around it, is a losing proposition for casters.

Now compare what happens if you had, instead of wasting a spell on fireball, threw out something like Stinking Cloud, instead. Assuming, at level 10 with no special investment, you're looking at a save DC of 20. Monsters have a fort save of 8.67 at this level, so you're going to take out roughly half of this fight against 4 creatures with a single spell slot, rather than doing nothing relevant to prevent the enemies from killing your party.

On the other hand, pretty much every enemy in the game will go down if you hit it with enough damage, which makes it a pretty universal strategy. And few conditions disable an enemy more effectively than the "Dead" condition. Besides, it's not like every archer and beatstick doesn't have the exact same problem.Except they don't because they do damage better, and also don't have options for things like Stinking Cloud or Evard's Kinky Tentacles. A barbarian will always want to charge, because a barbarian doesn't have the option of just skipping that and going straight into the "you lose" phase.

Reserve feats are actually very good if you're blasting because you get a lot of mileage out of the CL boost.No, they super aren't. If you're blasting, your focus needs to be on metamagic. +1CL and an ability you don't care about is flatly worse than Practical Metamagic or Arcane Thesis at every point, especially since there are very, very few uncapped damage spells.

At the cost of 3 shools of magic, which is arguably pretty rough.

Also 3 spell slots reserved only for one school of magic.One school, which is almost certainly conjuration and thus contains basically every spell you actually care about.

And a kobold sorcerer can use the greater draconic rite of passage to close that half-level gap without giving up schools of magic. Point; sorcerer.

You've missed the point. I said that wizards -can- do it as well as sorcerers but it costs them things. 3 schools of magic is a -very- non-trivial cost just to match the number of blasts the sorc can belt out without giving up anything at all. That half of those are locked into either evocation or conjuration is also a pretty big deal.You're incorrect on both counts, I'm afraid.

Even if a kobold has the level booster, they're still a sorcerer, and thus stuck on their spell list, whereas a wizard can take the day off and raise a bunch of zombies, divine, or whatever, with essentially no character cost. Second of all, if you're blasting well, you're pretty much going to be using the same spell non-stop because Arcane Thesis is good, so it really makes no difference at all.

More at the OP, a wizard is bad at blasting because they have better things to do. Yes, the loss of Arcane Fusion is a sadness, but the real fact of the matter is that a wizard can end an encounter in a single spell, and it's very difficult to have blasting reach that level of efficiency.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

So what im seeing is wizard are the better choice for Battle control/debuffing (general census) vs a sorcerer. Mainly due to the Specialization a wizard can do and the tweaks they can do to the spells via class feature trading/swaping. while a sorcerer is better for blasting due to the free "floating" Spells of the day.

[Deophaun]

It's pretty obvious that direct damage, without building yourself around it, is a losing proposition for casters.
Direct damage is a losing proposition for most anyone who doesn't build themselves around it. Your ubercharger generally doesn't have much in the way of alternatives.

And even though uberchargers are the damage kings, they can also be shut down rather trivially. A magic missile volley from a Force Missile Mage that does 500+ damage is a bit harder.

[Oracle71]

It is actually possible to be a good wizard blaster, but it requires a LOT of resources to do so. IF you devote all of your feats to metamagic and metamagic reducers, IF you can take flaws to get even more of those feats, and IF you decide to spend a load of gold and XP to make scrolls of all of those control/buff/debuff spells you probably should have devoted your actual spell slots to instead of your super heavily tricked out fireball spells, then you could probably make a good blaster.

If you decide to do all of those things, blasting CAN be an effective tactic, but it will be a terribly inefficient use of your available character resources.

[Anthrowhale]

Uncanny Forethought is the obvious answer to lack of versatility by a wizard. Taken at level 1, you are a sorcerer with fewer spells but a much broader selection. Taken at level 30, you are a wizard able to always come up with the right spell in a pinch.

[Zanos]

Wizard, very generally speaking (and this is more true for low/mid op than high-op) is good in two situations:

1) When they have prepared versatile spells that are useful and powerful in a variety of circumstances.

2) When they have had the time and resources to determine the challenges they will face in the immediate future and have prepared their spell slots to deal with those challenges.
I'd like to also add to this that their nearly unlimited spell knowledge allows them to pretty trivially learn spells that are useful only once, or only out of combat. Pretty much any wizard can benefit from learning animate dead, dominate person or planar binding and using downtime to acquire minions. Likewise with tricks like wall of stone and stone shape to build a fortress, guards and wards, dimensional lock, etc. Spells with very useful effects, but almost never worth a precious spell known for a sorcerer.


Uncanny Forethought is the obvious answer to lack of versatility by a wizard. Taken at level 1, you are a sorcerer with fewer spells but a much broader selection. Taken at level 30, you are a wizard able to always come up with the right spell in a pinch.
Uncanny Forethought + Practiced Spellcaster + Arcane Spellsurge = hilarity.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, it really isn't. A charger will always do more damage, and that's where damage is really at. Comparing it to rogues is actually a good point, though, because, like basic blasting, rogues don't work. Everything's immune to them, and they almost never do level-appropriate damage even then.

LOL no. You don't compare an optimized character's ability to another character's basic ability. Ubercharger damage doesn't get compared to basic spells, it gets compared to mail-man damage... Where it loses. Quite handily.


On the other hand, it's pretty simple to put together a barbarian or the like that puts out over 100 damage on a charge by level 6.

If you know how, sure. But it's not really any harder to get the same out of a blaster caster if you know how.


Yes, and CR10 things have, on average, 136.5hp. Even CR7 things, four which would be a basic CR10 encounter, have 87HP on average. In other words, your fireball has absolutely no chance of taking anyone out of the fight. HP, on average, up until level 15~, goes up by around 12.5HP per CR increase. Damage goes up by 3.5 per CL. It's pretty obvious that direct damage, without building yourself around it, is a losing proposition for casters.

That's rather the point of this exercise. It's also true for martials, btw. A lockdown fighter's damage is nothing to write home about.


Now compare what happens if you had, instead of wasting a spell on fireball, threw out something like Stinking Cloud, instead. Assuming, at level 10 with no special investment, you're looking at a save DC of 20. Monsters have a fort save of 8.67 at this level, so you're going to take out roughly half of this fight against 4 creatures with a single spell slot, rather than doing nothing relevant to prevent the enemies from killing your party.

No one is arguing that blasting is the ideal use of spells. The question was why it's generally considered better on a sorcerer than a wizard. You're having a different argument and, intentionally or not, weighting how you frame it to favor your presupposed conclusion.


Except they don't because they do damage better, and also don't have options for things like Stinking Cloud or Evard's Kinky Tentacles. A barbarian will always want to charge, because a barbarian doesn't have the option of just skipping that and going straight into the "you lose" phase.

Unless the GM is intentionally getting in the way of the charger's ability to acquire and apply damage multipliers, hitting the "no save, just die" realm of damage isn't that hard. No harder than doing the same on a blaster-caster either, for that matter.

Every character uses his character options to expand upon or build up their basic options. If your hypothetical wizard isn't spending build resources on blasting, what is he spending them on? The point I'm trying to get across here is that it's trivially, almost tautologically, true that an optimized combat option is more effective than a basic one. Comparing the former to the latter isn't a particularly compelling argument.




No, they super aren't. If you're blasting, your focus needs to be on metamagic. +1CL and an ability you don't care about is flatly worse than Practical Metamagic or Arcane Thesis at every point, especially since there are very, very few uncapped damage spells.

This is largely true. Reserve feats are good for having an option that doesn't waste spell-slots on trivial targets but the +1CL isn't worth a feat if maximum damage is the goal.


One school, which is almost certainly conjuration and thus contains basically every spell you actually care about.
You're incorrect on both counts, I'm afraid.

While conjuration is certainly the most powerful school of magic, even it isn't really worth sacrificing three others for a more general caster. For a dedicated blaster, evocation is a contender for that specialization choice though you certainly wouldn't make conjuration one of the three you drop if you go that way.


Even if a kobold has the level booster, they're still a sorcerer, and thus stuck on their spell list, whereas a wizard can take the day off and raise a bunch of zombies, divine, or whatever, with essentially no character cost. Second of all, if you're blasting well, you're pretty much going to be using the same spell non-stop because Arcane Thesis is good, so it really makes no difference at all.

Arcane thesis is nice for a signature spell, to get just that little extra oomph. It's hardly the center of the build though. Maybe on a force missile mage.

That said, you are right about a blaster largely using the same handful of spells over and over, which is why spontaneous casters are better for it.

Again, the question was why sorcerers make better blasters than wizards not which is the more powerful/ versatile class overall.


More at the OP, a wizard is bad at blasting because they have better things to do. Yes, the loss of Arcane Fusion is a sadness, but the real fact of the matter is that a wizard can end an encounter in a single spell, and it's very difficult to have blasting reach that level of efficiency.

Wizards are worse at blasting (at most levels of optimization) because their casting mechanic is better suited to casting a variety of spells rather than the same few over and over. That's it in a nutshell anyway.

[Ramza00]

At the cost of 3 shools of magic, which is arguably pretty rough.

Also 3 spell slots reserved only for one school of magic.

Lets pick an arbitrary level, let's say Level 8.

I am excluding 1st level spells for they are weak sauce and you can afford 1st level spell effects by magic items, wealth, fellow party members, etc. It makes the math far easier to comprehend by removing 1st level spells.

---

At level 8 a Sorcerer knows a total of 6 spells known that are 2nd level (3), 3rd level (2), and 4th level (1). She has a total of 14 spell slots of 2nd (6), 3rd (5) and 4th (3) level + bonus spells so maybe an additional 3 spell slots if her charisma is 20 after items (+1 2nd level, +1 3rd level, +1 4th level) so 17 spell slots of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level at level 8 sorcerer but you are only casting 6 different spells known.

By contrast a focused specialist wizard at level 8 would have these amount of spell slots with a Int of 20 (bonus spells +1 2nd level, +1 3rd level, +1 4th level)

3 Spells of Level 2, any school
3 Spells of Level 3, any school
2 Spells of Level 4, any school

3 Spells of Level 2, specialist school
3 Spells of Level 3, specialist school
3 Spells of Level 4, specialist school

So the same 17 spell slots of levels 2, 3, and 4 at level 8 but you know can choose 17 different spells to fill those slots not 6. 9 of these spell slots must come from your favored school, but 8 of them can be from the 4 other schools besides your favorite (there are total of 8 schools, plus universal).

Remember a Sorcerer only knows 6 spells of level 2, 3, and 4 at sorcerer level 8 so while they can learn 6 spells from the 8 different spell types+universal in effect their limited spells known has forced them to pseduo specialize. You can't even pick all 8 schools, and you only know 1 more spell school than the Focus Specialist with its 4 non specialist schools+its specialist school.

Now Focused Specialist does have its downsides, but if you have a party member who will cooperate you either divine, psionic, or other arcane your party itself will be able to fill all the roles that you need all 8 schools of magic to do. And you will actually bring far more real world flexibility to the party table for your wizard will have the right spell prepared for she / he is not limited to the very low amount of spells known that a sorcerer possess. My point is the benefits outweigh the tradeooffs in most scenarios.

------

Oh also Spell Mastery+Uncanny Forethought also gets rid of most of the downsides of prepared spellcasting but I pretend these feats do not exist for not all people play with the awesomeness / silliness that is Uncanny Forethought. (Uncanny Forethought allows you to prepare Int Modifier of spells as blanks and then sub a spell from your spellbook into that blank and cast the spell as a full round action and at -2 caster level, Spell Mastery which is a prerequisite of Uncanny Forethought will remove the downside of -2 caster level and make the action a standard action again if the spell is one of them you forever memorized with spell mastery.)

[Selene Sparks]

Direct damage is a losing proposition for most anyone who doesn't build themselves around it. Your ubercharger generally doesn't have much in the way of alternatives.

And even though uberchargers are the damage kings, they can also be shut down rather trivially. A magic missile volley from a Force Missile Mage that does 500+ damage is a bit harder.Not really, though. Forceward. Spell Resistance. Shield. I mean, yes, chargers are easy to shut down, but magic missile isn't much better.

LOL no. You don't compare an optimized character's ability to another character's basic ability. Ubercharger damage doesn't get compared to basic spells, it gets compared to mail-man damage... Where it loses. Quite handily. First of all, I was referring to a basic charger, not the specific ubercharger. And, in either case, that's flatly incorrect. Mailman damage doesn't scale like charge damage does.

If you know how, sure. But it's not really any harder to get the same out of a blaster caster if you know how.So, please, walk me through exactly how you're putting out over 100 damage on a target with a single spell at level 6, reliably and more than once.

That's rather the point of this exercise. It's also true for martials, btw. A lockdown fighter's damage is nothing to write home about. That's because a lockdown fighter itself is nothing to write home about, not anything to do with scaling.

No one is arguing that blasting is the ideal use of spells. The question was why it's generally considered better on a sorcerer than a wizard. You're having a different argument and, intentionally or not, weighting how you frame it to favor your presupposed conclusion.That particular statement was aimed, not at the OP, but at the idea that an unenhanced fireball is ever a worthwhile spell to cast. You'll note, I responded to the OP on the subject later.

Every character uses his character options to expand upon or build up their basic options. If your hypothetical wizard isn't spending build resources on blasting, what is he spending them on? The point I'm trying to get across here is that it's trivially, almost tautologically, true that an optimized combat option is more effective than a basic one. Comparing the former to the latter isn't a particularly compelling argument.The hypothetical wizard is almost certainly spending resources on options more efficient than blasting. In other words, yes, it's true that an optimized character is better than an unoptimized character, but focusing on blasting is simply not optimal.

While conjuration is certainly the most powerful school of magic, even it isn't really worth sacrificing three others for a more general caster. For a dedicated blaster, evocation is a contender for that specialization choice though you certainly wouldn't make conjuration one of the three you drop if you go that way. No, it really isn't. Arcane Thesis is the most efficient way to elevate damage enough, and there aren't good options in evocation.

Arcane thesis is nice for a signature spell, to get just that little extra oomph. It's hardly the center of the build though. Maybe on a force missile mage. No, you choose Orb of Fire every time, because that's the best base spell bar none.

Again, the question was why sorcerers make better blasters than wizards not which is the more powerful/ versatile class overall. Which I answered. Any time a wizard is wasting spells on blasting, they could be spending those slots on something more efficient. A sorcerer doesn't have that luxury. Therefore, a sorcerer is better at blasting because a wizard is bad at blasting because blasting is worse than other options wizards have, and so they shouldn't be blasting if you're trying to optimize.

Wizards are worse at blasting (at most levels of optimization) because their casting mechanic is better suited to casting a variety of spells rather than the same few over and over. That's it in a nutshell anyway.Not really. I mean, it's theoretically true, but not relevant to the broader point that, anything a sorcerer could do, a wizard could be doing just as well with only minimal work. The thing is that wizards can also do other things that can take up resources, like being a persistomancer for example, whereas a sorcerer can't, and a persistent-abusing party buffer is probably better for your party.

[Troacctid]

No, it really isn't. A charger will always do more damage, and that's where damage is really at. Comparing it to rogues is actually a good point, though, because, like basic blasting, rogues don't work. Everything's immune to them, and they almost never do level-appropriate damage even then.

On the other hand, it's pretty simple to put together a barbarian or the like that puts out over 100 damage on a charge by level 6.
Okay, so who besides a charger is competitive with blasting spells for damage?

[Ramza00]

Okay, so who besides a charger is competitive with blasting spells for damage?

Summons, Polymorph, Archers, Tome of Battle.

Also Attack of Opportunty users are as well but with AoO users are not damage makers in a in the same number of rounds as blasters. But effectively they are for they have action superiority, use stand still or your favorite AoO feat chain, you use your AoO to reduce the enemies actions during their rounds while still using your main attack during your rounds or after the improved trip activates.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

I did not expect this thread to go so deep into the "code" if you will of wizard vs sorcerer/ Wizard for non blasting ethics and design.

Good part is amazing thoughts and ideas for wizard to be done and shenanigan with as well besides "i shoot scorching ray/Magic missile/(insert evocation spell).


Bad part.

Still not sure if i should be a wizard or a sorcerer. lol

If there is anyone who knows wizards good and willing to lend me a hand i would greatly appreciate it. Since I apparently make better sorcerers then wizards.

[Vizzerdrix]

Why not just play sorc into mage of the arcane order? Sure, you have to light a few of your feats on fire but it is a fun build and you only have to worry about book keeping beyond your base spell list when you choose.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Im honestly "pre set" for level and stats. My big issue is feats and spells to run with and if i should be a specialist wizard or not. I did all the work and hunting for proper levels to class and some cheese grinding (factotum/able learner level 1) So i can be slightly "specal snow flake" Just need the finishing touches esstinally

Its to level 37
Factotum 1
Human paragon 3
mind bender 1
Wizard 20
Effigy master 5

i need to find 7 more levels and finish off the build

Plus its a bit easier to Boost INT via template then it is to boost cha. @.@

[Fearan]

i need to find 7 more levels and finish off the build
Incantatrix?
Recaster?
Escalation mage?

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Not using Faurn :(
Not using Ebberon

[Eldariel]

And a kobold sorcerer can use the greater draconic rite of passage to close that half-level gap without giving up schools of magic. Point; sorcerer.

AT the cost of 3 of their first feats, locked race, and still having only 1 spell known on 3rd level on level 5. I don't think the Sorc wins out on versatility.


You've missed the point. I said that wizards -can- do it as well as sorcerers but it costs them things. 3 schools of magic is a -very- non-trivial cost just to match the number of blasts the sorc can belt out without giving up anything at all. That half of those are locked into either evocation or conjuration is also a pretty big deal.

No, it's not worth it optimisation wise. That just comes back to blasting being a poor focus for a Sorc or a Wizard alike unless you focus on it to become the primary damage dealer, but if you're building a damage dealer, then it's an easy pick-up since you'd be casting 3+ damage spells of your highest level every day anyways so focused specialisation is not even much of a drawback. Then you can use Uncanny Forethought (Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought, Practiced Spellcaster is also 3 feats as it turns out) to turn those slots into whatever spell you want if you want to play a Wizard that just makes a Sorc feel bad. This way you are a spontaneous caster for your best slots while also having as many slots as a Sorc and infinite spells known.

Sorc just really isn't better than a Wizard at anything at any point before the samism level optimisation kicks in (free spell relearning/access to all spells, spell slot regeneration, action loops and things of that nature). Apply an equal amount of work to both and the Wizard practically always comes out ahead before that point though. The only real exception are the Sorc-only spells (Arcane Fusion in particular is pretty awesome to the point that it's reasonable for a Wizard to take levels in a class granting off-list spells known for it), but again even with all the wealth in the world a Sorc's spell list tends to only be a pale shadow of a Wizard's.


But yes, Sorc is comparatively better at blasting than many other things so there's truth in it - people just make the false equivalency of "Sorc vs. Wizard" when it should be "A kind of Sorc vs. a different kind of Sorc".

[Anthrowhale]

Not using Faurn :(
Not using Ebberon

If you want to make a wizard blaster and you have ridiculously many levels, then 4 levels of Wyrm Wizard grants Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion.

[King of Nowhere]

On the other hand, it's pretty simple to put together a barbarian or the like that puts out over 100 damage on a charge by level 6.


+7 to STR means +10 damage. All BAB to leap attack, it's another +18 damage. Add the dice and some magic from the weapon, I am stuck at 40 damage, and I've been playing for years. I think you are at a level of optimization vastly superior to that of the OP. And advice tailored to different optimization level is bad advice, generally. One can't really apply them effectively, and will end up with some mismatched strategy that he won't understand anyway.

In my table experience (which is much closer to the OP level) blasting is effective against groups of opponents, because it helps the fighters just that much. maybe it won't kill the enemies outright, but it may drop them just enough to let the ffighter kill them all in one round with great cleave. against a single target, especially one with good resistancies, it is less effective than whacking it with metal sticks. Generally speaking, doing things other than blasting is more useful, but blasting is still effective in several situations.
By the way, not blasting is good if you have reliable party members who can finish the disabled enemies. If a wizard is going alone (may be the case of a villain) then pinning down the enemies for some rounds is all well and good, but you still need either damage or save-or-die (which, if someone invested in saving throws, aren't very reliable) to finish the job. I once threw a high level wizard against the party who stuck them down in the surprise round with quickened black tentacles and sunburst, but failed to finish the job afterwards because he had no fast way of killing those disabled enemies. who gradually managed to luck grapple checks and/or get healed.


I did not expect this thread to go so deep into the "code" if you will of wizard vs sorcerer/ Wizard for non blasting ethics and design.

Good part is amazing thoughts and ideas for wizard to be done and shenanigan with as well besides "i shoot scorching ray/Magic missile/(insert evocation spell).


Bad part.

Still not sure if i should be a wizard or a sorcerer. lol

If there is anyone who knows wizards good and willing to lend me a hand i would greatly appreciate it. Since I apparently make better sorcerers then wizards.
Asking about optimization in this forum is always like opening a pandora's box. I am often reluctant to do it because I generally get too much information, most of which is unusable at my optimization level / in my campaign world, and/or just plain confusing. takes practive to telll apart what you can/want to actually use and what you don't.
I suggest you jusst stumble a bit along the way, I don''t know any better way to learn

[Deophaun]

Not really, though. Forceward. Spell Resistance. Shield. I mean, yes, chargers are easy to shut down, but magic missile isn't much better.
Shield against a Force Missile Mage? Your funeral.

Spell resistance isn't all that common and it's not far from being a hard counter. Even if you're throwing golems, all that you're doing is telling the FMM to fall back to an orb spell, and a magic missile build isn't all that different from a mailman.

And the chief issue with forceward is that the DM needs to know it exists. Second, it needs to be a prepared spell for a wizard or a precious known spell for a sorcerer. Third, you're stuck in that 15' radius unmoving sphere unless you want a magic missile to the face, which means it's not something you're going to have up before hand. That first 500 damage volley is free for the attacker. And finally, even if it's up, nothing says the FMM has to cast magic missile to deal twice your HP in damage.

Uberchargers, on the other hand, can be shut down accidentally.

[Mordaedil]

So the same 17 spell slots of levels 2, 3, and 4 at level 8 but you know can choose 17 different spells to fill those slots not 6. 9 of these spell slots must come from your favored school, but 8 of them can be from the 4 other schools besides your favorite (there are total of 8 schools, plus universal).

Total of 8 schools, minus 3 that you can cast from. So 5 schools you have access to, possibly 6 if you picked divination as your focus. But if you are a focused specialist, divination isn't likely what you want to focus on, as good as divination spells are, there is a thing as too much of a good thing. Don't forget you also lose a spell slot from being a focused specialist, to get 2 specialized slots, so you actually have 2 level 2 spells, 2 level 3 spells and 1 level 4 spell, before you add your intelligence bonus.

[Deophaun]

So, please, walk me through exactly how you're putting out over 100 damage on a target with a single spell at level 6, reliably and more than once.
You know, I like this challenge. Let's do it. With magic missile.

Human Wizard 6
1st: Searing Spell (Necessary because we need a single metamagic feat for prereqs for our other metamagic feats)
Human Bonus: Invisible Spell
3rd: Knowledge Devotion
5th Wizard Bonus: Twin Spell
6th: Arcane Thesis (magic missile)

We'll assume a starting Int of 16, giving us 6 skill ranks which we will put into the Big Six knowledge skills, save for (the planes), where we will save two points for the Collector of Stories skill trick, for a skill mod of +12 in arcana, dungeoneering, local, nature, and religion and +10 in the planes. Collector of Stories will let us get up to +17/+15, and as we're obviously dealing with cheese (this whole thing assumes maximum cheese, so most generous interpretations of the rules) if we're trying to get 100 damage at level 6, unspecified masterwork tools of knowledge are most likely a thing, so +19/+17, letting us hit an average of +3 on Knowledge Devotion (reliably if we're allowed to Take 10).

At this stage we can cast a CL 8 Twinned Invisible magic missile out of a third level slot, which we have three of, with each missile gaining +3 on the damage roll from Knowledge Devotion, giving us 8d4+32 damage, or an average of 52. Half way there!

We've got some gear to buy.
We're going to spend 1,500 gp on an empowered spellshard (magic missile). Three times per day, we can use Empower Spell on our magic missile for an extra 50% damage. 75% the way there!
We're going to spend 647 gp on a +1 earthbound collision arrow, which we can wield as an improvised weapon, giving us an extra 5 damage to anything we hit, or 7 if we and the target are both on the ground. Which, we're going to assume because we're competing with an ubercharger that is going to have issues with flying creatures at level 6.

That gives 8d4+88, an average of 108 damage, or when Empowered 12d4+132 damage, average 162 damage, three times a day. We are overachievers.
Of course, if we don't use any metamagic and cast out of our 1st level slots, we are only dealing a pathetic 4d4+44 damage. From 180 feet away.

[Kelb_Panthera]

+7 to STR means +10 damage. All BAB to leap attack, it's another +18 damage. Add the dice and some magic from the weapon, I am stuck at 40 damage, and I've been playing for years. I think you are at a level of optimization vastly superior to that of the OP. And advice tailored to different optimization level is bad advice, generally. One can't really apply them effectively, and will end up with some mismatched strategy that he won't understand anyway.

You forgot pounce and whirling frenzy. That^ times 3.

You're almost certainly right about that being on a deeper level of optimization than the OP is aware of and, like I said, the quoted poster is weighting his assumptions a bit. "Can put out on a charge" and "will put out on a charge" aren't quite the same thing.

[Selene Sparks]

Okay, so who besides a charger is competitive with blasting spells for damage?Against basic blasting? Anyone that even bothers in the slightest. Power attack>a handful of d6s.

+7 to STR means +10 damage. All BAB to leap attack, it's another +18 damage. Add the dice and some magic from the weapon, I am stuck at 40 damage, and I've been playing for years. I think you are at a level of optimization vastly superior to that of the OP. And advice tailored to different optimization level is bad advice, generally. One can't really apply them effectively, and will end up with some mismatched strategy that he won't understand anyway.My math was including Pounce for three attacks, but you'll also be wanting Headlong Rush and a Valorous weapon. Also, your strength count is a bit low.

And, as for the advice, you'll note that, while that specific point was aimed at someone other than the OP, I did go into the theory of why blasting is bad, with the charger damage as a mere side-point.

Still not sure if i should be a wizard or a sorcerer. lolBe a sorcerer. Wizards can be a real hassle, especially if you're not used to them. Sorcerers can function just fine so long as you pick good spells, and rarely run into the problem of making an error in prep and being basically useless for a day.

If there is anyone who knows wizards good and willing to lend me a hand i would greatly appreciate it. Since I apparently make better sorcerers then wizards.Gladly. What, specifically, are you wanting to do? Wizards can do basically anything, but it's still a good idea to have a specific goal in mind.

Shield against a Force Missile Mage? Your funeral.You really think a wizard with some lost caster levels is going to beat the CL of something cast during a daily buff setup?

Spell resistance isn't all that common and it's not far from being a hard counter. Even if you're throwing golems, all that you're doing is telling the FMM to fall back to an orb spell, and a magic missile build isn't all that different from a mailman.You mean you're telling the FMM to not use the spell they've built themselves around and instead use a dramatically worse spell for them that's unlikely to do level-appropriate damage. That's a problem for the FMM.

And the chief issue with forceward is that the DM needs to know it exists. Second, it needs to be a prepared spell for a wizard or a precious known spell for a sorcerer. Third, you're stuck in that 15' radius unmoving sphere unless you want a magic missile to the face, which means it's not something you're going to have up before hand. That first 500 damage volley is free for the attacker. And finally, even if it's up, nothing says the FMM has to cast magic missile to deal twice your HP in damage.So now you're changing your asserion.

Uberchargers, on the other hand, can be shut down accidentally.Not disagreeing on this, but FMMs are also shut down as a side effect of basic buffing anyways, so it's not like they're holding too much high ground.

We'll assume a starting Int of 16, giving us 6 skill ranks which we will put into the Big Six knowledge skills, save for (the planes), where we will save two points for the Collector of Stories skill trick, for a skill mod of +12 in arcana, dungeoneering, local, nature, and religion and +10 in the planes. Collector of Stories will let us get up to +17/+15, and as we're obviously dealing with cheese (this whole thing assumes maximum cheese, so most generous interpretations of the rules) if we're trying to get 100 damage at level 6, unspecified masterwork tools of knowledge are most likely a thing, so +19/+17, letting us hit an average of +3 on Knowledge Devotion (reliably if we're allowed to Take 10).First of all, basic rule of optimization should be that you assume more conservative rulings, rather than more generous ones. Second, Collector of Stories doesn't interact with Knowledge Devotion, which puts you at +2 at best. I'm also not convinced that Knowledge Devotion works with Magic Missile in the way you seem to think it does, but that's neither here nor there at the moment, as it doesn't matter.

At this stage we can cast a CL 8 Twinned Invisible magic missile out of a third level slot, which we have three of, with each missile gaining +3 on the damage roll from Knowledge Devotion, giving us 8d4+32 damage, or an average of 52. Half way there!Even if we take your most charitable possible interpretation here, that's still only 8d4+24, or 44.

We've got some gear to buy.
We're going to spend 1,500 gp on an empowered spellshard (magic missile). Three times per day, we can use Empower Spell on our magic missile for an extra 50% damage. 75% the way there!
We're going to spend 647 gp on a +1 earthbound collision arrow, which we can wield as an improvised weapon, giving us an extra 5 damage to anything we hit, or 7 if we and the target are both on the ground. Which, we're going to assume because we're competing with an ubercharger that is going to have issues with flying creatures at level 6.

That gives 8d4+88, an average of 108 damage, or when Empowered 12d4+132 damage, average 162 damage, three times a day. We are overachievers.
Of course, if we don't use any metamagic and cast out of our 1st level slots, we are only dealing a pathetic 4d4+44 damage. From 180 feet away.You've made two additional errors here. First of all, you're applying Collision, which even in the most charitable possible interpretation, cannot be applied to Magic Missile as it explicitly says it applies on a hit, which magic missile cannot do. Second, you're multiplying things that are not variable numeric effects of the spell, something you cannot do.

So, even in your most absurdly charitable interpretations, you're looking at 66 damage by my calculations, or 44 in a more conservative view. Either way, far short of what you were trying.

[death390]

my go-to is always shadowcraft mage with arcane thesis(silent image), metamagic reducers on heighten (i cast a 8th level spell out of a 2nd level slot!), and if i am really feeling like a **** make my shadow spells more deadly than reality (don't peer behind the veil, just don't).

the thing is that wizard has the inherent flaw of being less flexible than others, SCM get around this because using Heighten on Silent Image gets you ANY Conjuration(summoning/creation) or evocation spell. here is one for you, CONTINGENCY is a evocation spell. mind you that it only has your reality% to occur but if you have 120% reality... hmm does that mean it always activates 1 time but possibly twice? eh ask about that in another thread.

mind you this gets 100000x worse when you realize that it is possible to get Silent Image as a 0 level spell (gnome illusionist levels) which means it is possible to spell research it (DM permitting) giving you and entire new spell level to abuse. best part is you only need a ring of wizardry (or two) to get even more bang for your buck. hell with epic level spellcasting Heighten is no longer bound to the same restrictions of lvl 9 max heighten level (ahahahahahha you can technically get lvl 11 with right feats or higher with thamaturge spell circle) and not lets add metamagic to the insanity. twinned, chained, repatriating, energy admixture, ect ect.

[Deophaun]

Not disagreeing on this, but FMMs are also shut down as a side effect of basic buffing anyways, so it's not like they're holding too much high ground.
What basic buffing shuts down FMM?

First of all, basic rule of optimization should be that you assume more conservative rulings, rather than more generous ones.
Have you been on this forum before?

Second, Collector of Stories doesn't interact with Knowledge Devotion, which puts you at +2 at best.
This depends on what "as described on page 78 in the Player's Handbook" means. If it's just something like arcana checks concern dragons then you're correct. If it's "you can use this skill to identify monsters" then you're not.

I'm also not convinced that Knowledge Devotion works with Magic Missile in the way you seem to think it does
It gives a bonus to damage rolls. Are you saying magic missile does not have damage rolls?

You've made two additional errors here. First of all, you're applying Collision, which even in the most charitable possible interpretation, cannot be applied to Magic Missile as it explicitly says it applies on a hit, which magic missile cannot do.
i'll give you that. We'll go with illithidwrought instead. We'll lose 4 points per missile.

Second, you're multiplying things that are not variable numeric effects of the spell, something you cannot do.1d4+x is a variable effect. Empower Spell even uses magic missile as an example. And I get to apply modifiers in the most beneficial order. That means 1d4+7 per missile, then Empowered.

12d4+84 damage. Still an average of 114 damage, which is actually the opposite of "way short."

[Nifft]

Its to level 37
Factotum 1
Human paragon 3
mind bender 1
Wizard 20
Effigy master 5

i need to find 7 more levels and finish off the build

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is exactly 7 levels.

Also it's pretty spiffy.

[ViperMagnum357]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is exactly 7 levels.

Also it's pretty spiffy.

I second this-immediate action abilities that can cancel or negate attacks are nothing to sneer at.

[Ramza00]

Total of 8 schools, minus 3 that you can cast from. So 5 schools you have access to, possibly 6 if you picked divination as your focus. But if you are a focused specialist, divination isn't likely what you want to focus on, as good as divination spells are, there is a thing as too much of a good thing. Don't forget you also lose a spell slot from being a focused specialist, to get 2 specialized slots, so you actually have 2 level 2 spells, 2 level 3 spells and 1 level 4 spell, before you add your intelligence bonus.

You actually gain 3 specialists slots, not 2. You gain 1 from just being a specialist and you gain 2 more for a total of 3 specialist slots of each level for being a focused specialist. In other words this

http://sagaofsteverogers.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/3_wishes-300x221.jpg

Let me quote



Focused Specialist Wizard

This class advances as the Wizard normally does, except as listed below:

Every wizard who calls himself a specialist takes pride in wielding his preferred form of magic. Those who are exceptionally pure of purpose take this specialization to an entirely new level, disdaining breadth of skill in favor of even greater focus.

Special Requirement: You must be a specialist Wizard, 1st Level

Replaces:

* You lose one spell slot from each level of wizard spells you can cast. if you later gain the ability to cast higher-level spells, you lose one spell slot from each new level of spells you can cast.
* You must also choose another prohibited school of magic, which can't be divination.

Benefits:

* You can prepare two additional spells of your specialty school per spell level each day. These extra spells are in addition to those normally granted to a specialist wizard. This benefit doesn't apply to spells gained from classes other than wizard.

So a level 8 wizard that is a generalist would have these amount of spells from class levels and bonus spells from Int of 20.


———1234
Generalist Baste at LVL 84332
Bonus Spells with 20 INT2111
Total Spells6443

Contrast this with a Focused Specialist. Now to make it easier to understand I am used Focused Specialist Slots with this ❸ symbol to represent 3 slots contrasted with normal numbers for universal slots.


———1234
Focused Specialist Base at level 83221
Bonus Spells with 20 INT2111
Focused Specialist Slots❸❸❸❸
Total Spells5+❸3+❸3+❸2+❸

Focused Specialist is a net gain of +2 spell slots of every level compared to a generalist, but a gain of 3 specialized slots and a loss of 1 generalist slot.

Remember most people will have a high enough INT to gain a bonus spell of their highest level, so instead of having 2 generalist spell slots of the highest level you can cast when you gain a new spell levels on the "odd character levels", you have 1 generalist spell slot of the highest level you can cast but you have 3 focused specialist school slots for a total of 4 spells of the highest level you can cast on the odd levels contrasted with the Generalist can only cast 2 spells of the highest level on the odd levels.

[Selene Sparks]

What basic buffing shuts down FMM?As I said, shield.

This depends on what "as described on page 78 in the Player's Handbook" means. If it's just something like arcana checks concern dragons then you're correct. If it's "you can use this skill to identify monsters" then you're not.No, it really doesn't. You make a knowledge check based on its type. This is an entirely distinct thing from the basic skill usage, as seen by the different DC, so Collector of Stories, which explicitly only gives you the bonus to "identify a creature or to learn its powers or vulnerabilities," which Knowledge Devotion is not.

It gives a bonus to damage rolls. Are you saying magic missile does not have damage rolls?Yes. I am questioning the number of damage rolls in magic missile.

1d4+x is a variable effect. Empower Spell even uses magic missile as an example. And I get to apply modifiers in the most beneficial order. That means 1d4+7 per missile, then Empowered.No, d4+1 is a variable effect from the spell, for the same reason that Blistering damage isn't multiplied. The extras, added on top of a damage roll, rather than a per die basis, are not, in fact, variable and therefore are not multiplied.

12d4+84 damage. Still an average of 114 damage, which is actually the opposite of "way short."Nope. Still short.

[death390]

As I said, shield.
No, it really doesn't. You make a knowledge check based on its type. This is an entirely distinct thing from the basic skill usage, as seen by the different DC, so Collector of Stories, which explicitly only gives you the bonus to "identify a creature or to learn its powers or vulnerabilities," which Knowledge Devotion is not.
Yes. I am questioning the number of damage rolls in magic missile.
No, d4+1 is a variable effect from the spell, for the same reason that Blistering damage isn't multiplied. The extras, added on top of a damage roll, rather than a per die basis, are not, in fact, variable and therefore are not multiplied.
Nope. Still short.

yeah no, " In addition, a force missile mage's Magic Missiles might penetrate Shield spells and Brooches of Shielding. Against such protections, the force missile mage makes a caster level check with a DC equal to the caster level, in the case of Shield, or DC 20, in the case of a brooch.?"

[Selene Sparks]

yeah no, " In addition, a force missile mage's Magic Missiles might penetrate Shield spells and Brooches of Shielding. Against such protections, the force missile mage makes a caster level check with a DC equal to the caster level, in the case of Shield, or DC 20, in the case of a brooch.?"Yes, it's an opposed caster level check against a persistable buff. As such, the CL of shield will always be dramatically above that of Magic Missile, because jacking up the CL for persisting is SOP.

[Mordaedil]

You actually gain 3 specialists slots, not 2. You gain 1 from just being a specialist and you gain 2 more for a total of 3 specialist slots of each level for being a focused specialist. In other words this

I literally said that. You don't need to nerd out to show off your first grade math.

[Deophaun]

Yes, it's an opposed caster level check against a persistable buff.
A: Persist is more of a thing for clerics using DMM, which don't get shield. Wizards are more likely to use a free action for this. Wizards that do Persist are going to use better spells than shield.
B: You're now resorting to a CoDzilla to beat a FMM.
C: It's CL versus CL+d20, not CL+10 versus CL+d20. The FMM starts +10 up.

Now, as you've got nothing else, challenge has been met. Good day.

[Ramza00]

I literally said that. You don't need to nerd out to show off your first grade math.

Why then did you say my math was wrong, when my math was right then? You old self said my math was wrong, when your new self is saying my math is right. Pick which one you want to argue.

[PersonMan]

Why then did you say my math was wrong, when my math was right then? You old self said my math was wrong, when your new self is saying my math is right. Pick which one you want to argue.

By my reading, it looks like what he meant with his earlier post was referring to the additional gain from Focused Specialist (so, "gain two spell slots from Focused Specialist" is referring specifically to those two, rather than being a reference to total extra slots, and potentially meaning the net spell slot gain +1 -1 +2 -> +2).

[Ramza00]

By my reading, it looks like what he meant with his earlier post was referring to the additional gain from Focused Specialist (so, "gain two spell slots from Focused Specialist" is referring specifically to those two, rather than being a reference to total extra slots, and potentially meaning the net spell slot gain +1 -1 +2 -> +2).

I want to hear it from Mordaedil what he meant for I bet this is all a big misunderstanding, but I got something in my craw for he did (from the middle of the conversation)


so you actually have 2 level 2 spells, 2 level 3 spells and 1 level 4 spell, before you add your intelligence bonus.

"You actually" is oftenbut not always rude, and condescending. I showed all my math and explained in detail because I was "you actually" when my math was right and it was always right for I was adding my intelligence bonus which I stated at the very beginning of the conversation. This is from the very beginning of the conversation.



By contrast a focused specialist wizard at level 8 would have these amount of spell slots with a Int of 20 (bonus spells +1 2nd level, +1 3rd level, +1 4th level)

So either it was a misunderstanding, or he said my math was wrong. So I showed my math after the "you actually comment", and then this happened.


I literally said that. You don't need to nerd out to show off your first grade math.

I bet Mordaendil is a very nice guy who made a mistake with his first grade reading comprehension. I bet he did not intend to be mean, rude, or condescending. I do not know though

I can't speak about what goes on with Mordaendil's head.

I can speak for myself though, I am both a person who is extremely petty and extremely kind and forgiving and these things go together. I get petty when a person feels like they are being rude and when you try to understand where they are coming from they just escalate the rudeness, aka the pettiness is kind of a defense mechanism that is sometimes a good thing and somethings is counter productive for it can be taken to far. But yeah both kind and petty I am.

I am still curious what Mordaendil has to say. Did he make a mistake with his math, did I make a mistake with my math, I think the mistake was in his reading comprehension and if it was that a reading or math error it is forgivable and understandable.

It doesn't mean you have to be a jerk about an error though, and I can be a little less petty :smallcool: (but being petty is so much fun, and that is why I use the blue text like a certain blue fictional character)

Aka I want to know which of us deserves this Genie gif.

https://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/sheepish_aladdin.gif

[ericgrau]

Im used to playing sorcerers and this time around i figured id roll a wizard. First thing that hit me in the face was Book keeping. The pages are real. I was so used to "oh i'll cast this and this with these meta magics". As a wizard? " i need a debuff and a control and a etc. etc." it was mind boggling. Never mind keeping proper count of spells per level and what i had and spells to cast.

Then the specializations and what schools to drop and what schools to never ever ever drop.

And the one thing i have seen in all "unoffical and offical" Wizards arent meant to be blasters. you want to be a blaster go roll a Sorcerer or X class.

After reading the guides i can see why. wizards are great Battle control/debuff or even mass summoning. But they also have some of the best Aoe/Blast spells. Did I miss something that makes "blaster wizards" terrible?
That's just a way to nerf sorcerers or X class for no reason. I've played sorcerer BFCers more than anything else. When I did play a wizard after a while I went blaster for the higher spell level. Though with other spell types on the side too. Blasting spells are more sensitive to spell level than BFC is. Spells per day or spells known OTOH has no effect whatsoever on the spell type you pick for a normal day. Being able to spell swap does affect what spells you pick on an unusual day, as you can use more niche spells on those days. But not on most days. That's it. For the most part there's no reason to play wizards any different from the sorcerer. They're just talking about popular forum builds for each class but restricting either one to a specific class makes no sense at all.

Encounters take roughly the same number of rounds either way, even when a little less effective. And either way a wizard is unlikely to run out of even half his spells per day.

If anything wizard blasters are the classic and most overdone wizard build outside of internet forums.



Now, most games at the table won't see the wizard waking up in the middle of the night to prepare a hundred divination spells to find out what we're fighting today so he can prepare his real spells for the day accordingly; most games, the wizard will have a vague idea of the adventure of the week (or a slightly better idea of the dangers to come, if this is more of a themed campaign/adventure path), so they won't be able to have the exact perfect combat spells prepared - at least, not the blasting ones. I'm currently playing a Wizard 8 for a RL game, and while my lists of possible spells are quite vast, I have thus far mostly ended up preparing the same spells quite frequently, and using them in combat in various combinations (Greater Invisibility on the Rogue, Stinking Cloud/Obscuring Mist/Black Tentacles on the group of enemies/in the chokepoint, Haste on my whole team, Enlarge Person on the Paladin, etc). This is because those spells are useful in most combats, partially by working off my teammates, and partially by being powerful Battlefield Control spells. Most fights, as long as my allies are semi-competent, I can buff them up and let them whack the enemy with sticks until we win. In fights with large groups my friends can't deal with super-quick, I lock them down, or make it so they can't do much, even if there's a whole bunch of them. This is a surprisingly effective combination in most games, because the DM isn't a **** that tries to negate tactics via Fiat and perfect planning.

On a related note, blasting has two general issues:

1) Poorly-scaling damage (both CL-scaling and spell level scaling)

2) Requires two successes on your part to deal the damage (general SR+save fail or SR+touch attack)

...which metamagic adds three problems to:

3) Low save DCs

4) Even worse damage-scaling

5) Metamagic is far too expensive for the effect it gives, almost across the board

Okay, 4 and 5 are kinda due to the same thing, but you get the point. That's not to say metamagic isn't worth taking, just that it's not something you decide ahead of time that you're absolutely for sure using unless it's a really good metamagic on a spell that pairs well with it...and blasting spells aren't "generally good" enough on their own to be worth metamagicking first thing in the morning just on general principles. Let's take an insultingly simple example: you're a wizard with Fireball and Energy Substitution (Cold). Do you prepare a Fireball, or a Coldball in that 3rd lvl slot? The sorcerer takes slightly longer to cast the latter than the former, but if the wizard prepares the wrong one, he needs either 15 minutes or 8 hours to fix that...and since that's not gonna happen in the middle of a fight, he's effectively just completely wasted a slot on bad guesswork.

If you made a sorcerer who had every metamagic feat in existence, he could create just about any spell you could imagine on the fly, as long as he had the slots for it. If you made a wizard who had every metamagic feat in existence, it wouldn't change much because you as the player had to choose which metamagic to apply to which spell first thing in the morning, and only have so many slots to prepare options in (slots which are competing with all your non-blasting spells as well). Choose wisely!
You should really play a sorcerer with the same spells readied instead then if your spell list hasn't changed yet. But OTOH let's see how the campaign turns out and see if that changes later. For example what if you want a 2nd black tentacles but prepared something else? Then it would be nicer to be a sorc. Also helps you spam more low level hour/level, swift or immediate action buffs. But what if a plot thing comes up and you want to swap in a niche spell? Then you'll be wishing you played a wizard again.

As for energy type, it's simple. You always choose scintillating sphere from spell compendium and don't burn a feat. Because 99% of the time the monster won't even be fire immune (let alone electricity immune). He might be fire resistant, but you will still do decent damage. And this is even less common with electricity, so why not. For the rare times that you do fight a fire/electricity immune foe, or don't want an AOE damage spell, or you got up on the left side of the bed this morning, you cast black tentacles. Because you should never ever have only one type of spells on a wizard or a sorcerer, that's just redundant and pointless. And it's trivially easy to cast something else so you'll never say "Oh no, a fire/electricity immune foe! Now there's nothing I can do!" Instead "Oh, wait, I know 3 other spells just about as powerful. Um, how about this one?" Energy type is way overhyped. SR OTOH, yes, that's a real problem. So then as you get into high level you use more SR: no spells. But you still keep some SR:yes spells for foes that don't have SR. Because again, picking one or the other mid fight is trivial.

Though yes metamagic is nicer on sorcerers for effectively giving you even more options. I like empower more for ray of enfeeblement and so on more than damage spells, though you can use it for your backup damage spell too. So now it's like knowing additional high level spells and you may have 5 or 6 powerful options instead of 3. There's other good splatbook metamagic like fell drain too of course.

[Mordaedil]

"You actually" is oftenbut not always rude, and condescending. I showed all my math and explained in detail because I was "you actually" when my math was right and it was always right for I was adding my intelligence bonus which I stated at the very beginning of the conversation. This is from the very beginning of the conversation.
The "you actually" is merely a correction to some numbers I saw that didn't align, nothing more, nothing less. It isn't a personal attack, like you do here.


So either it was a misunderstanding, or he said my math was wrong. So I showed my math after the "you actually comment", and then this happened.
I saw your math, it didn't seem accurate, I tried to correct it with a simple statement.


I bet Mordaendil is a very nice guy who made a mistake with his first grade reading comprehension. I bet he did not intend to be mean, rude, or condescending. I do not know though

I can't speak about what goes on with Mordaendil's head.
You complain about my reading comprehension, but you can't even spell my name right. That's really bloody rude, Ramza00.


I can speak for myself though, I am both a person who is extremely petty and extremely kind and forgiving and these things go together. I get petty when a person feels like they are being rude and when you try to understand where they are coming from they just escalate the rudeness, aka the pettiness is kind of a defense mechanism that is sometimes a good thing and somethings is counter productive for it can be taken to far. But yeah both kind and petty I am.
You do realize 'petty' isn't a very flattering thing to call yourself, right? It means you basically are a person who is not worth conversing with.


I am still curious what Mordaendil has to say. Did he make a mistake with his math, did I make a mistake with my math, I think the mistake was in his reading comprehension and if it was that a reading or math error it is forgivable and understandable.
You made a mistake with your math, I tried to give you a one-up that it was off and you decided to show your additions and they were still off and you got really mad about it.


Aka I want to know which of us deserves this Genie gif.
PersonMan's reading was right, by the way.