AOE Blasting, is it worth it?

[ttchong]

Hi everyone,

I picked a tempest cleric to specialize in AOE blasting, thinking that as a party of 5, we would get a lot of monsters coming at us.

However, after playing many games, I feel underwhelmed, and I was hoping to find out what other people's experiences are and to see what I am doing wrong.

My main issue is this, to maintain concentration on AOE concentration blasting spells (like call lightning), you need warcaster, resilient (con) and a high con to start with. After putting in all that effort, I find little chances of casting call lightning that blasts a large number monsters, while not hurting your teammates. The monsters spread out after the first round of combat and in most rounds, I only hit 2 monsters, which is definitely not worth the effort. Martials easily do more damage (albeit to one enemy) without investing much in terms of feats.

I can of course cast spiritual guardians as a cleric, but does that mean AOE blasting is only effective with spells that don't hurt your teammates? If that's the case, it severely limits AOE blasting, leading it (and the tempest cleric with it) to be underwhelming.

Any help/advice would be great, thanks!

[sophontteks]

AOE casting is good but its probably not the only thing you should be focused on. Warcaster isn't nessesary. What is truely nessesary is high initiative. You need to hit them before they spread out. AOE spells aren't just about damage, they also do wonders with battlefield control, forcing the enemy to spread out and preventing them from focusing a target.

[hymer]

I think the right lesson to learn here is that you need to learn the quirks of individual spells, and use them accordingly.
Spirit Guardians is one of the most celebrated cleric spells in 5e, and for good reason. But it isn't good in every situation. It requires you to be very close to the enemy, and it puts a large, neon 'hit-me-first' sign on your helmet. If you are in a position where you can't get away from the enemy anyway, Spirit Guardians is a no-brainer.
But Call Lightning definitely has its place as well. It has far better range, it works with your 'max lightning damage' thing, and it plays to your mobility. If an encounter starts at considerable distance, and if you have your full manoeuvrability, you can stay much safer while dealing your damage. Especially so if you can get cover, and just pop out from behind it to call down a lightning bolt once per round.

It may be that the way your DM designs encounters (type and number of enemies, terrain, distance, etc.) - or the way your group usually handles encounters - means that one option is going to come into play a lot more than the other. In that case, you at least still have options. Your ASI choices support SG even better than CL.

Finally, not having run the numbers for clerics, I wouldn't expect to outdamage the melee, except when you can hit quite large numbers with one spell. Your spells allow you to do so much more than deal damage, while the melee guys generally can hit enemies and little else. If you could out-damage the melee as well as being far more versatile in general, it wouldn't be fair to them.

[Aett_Thorn]

If you've got a 5-person party, and still have nobody blocking attackers from getting to you such that you feel you need Warcaster AND Resilient(Con), I don't know what to tell you. One of those should be decent enough to get you through. Call Lightning is a great spell, but I wouldn't necessarily consider it a bursty AoE blast spell. It's a 5' radius targeting spell that does 3d10 damage per round. It's a great over time spell that you can move around and hit different groups or individuals each round, though, which is fantastic. And paired with the Tempest's abilities, it can work fantastically. However, you should be staying in the back lines while doing it, and it's never going to cover the same ground as a Fireball, because it's not meant to directly compete with that.

Other than that, yes, like the poster above said: having a decent Initiative is also very helpful. Hitting the enemies with a blast spell before they can spread out, or before your party can engage in melee can be a big help. That way you don't accidentally hit them.

[Tanarii]

Call Lightning isn't really a full on AoE. It's an AoE-light. An anti-line-of-combat spell, or an anti-ganging-up-on-my-allies spell. It's only going to be a multi-enemy AoE if you're facing an enemy army. Even the normal "good against bunched enemies in narrow spaces in dungeons" clause for AoE-light spells doesn't really apply, because you can't use it in indoors.

-----------------

As an aside, do y'all's DMs really start enemies all bunched up and vulnerable to AoEs? Especially outdoors, that just seems weird.

[Aett_Thorn]

As an aside, do y'all's DMs really start enemies all bunched up and vulnerable to AoEs? Especially outdoors, that just seems weird.

Well, not exactly. But at the beginning of combat, especially if we sneak up on a group, there may be certain bunches of enemies. For instance, if we sneak up on a camp of Orcs, there might be several around the campfire, several in tents spread around the site, and a few guards at different points. A well-placed AoE in this case might get all of the ones sitting around the campfire, for instance.

Other times, an AoE might get a few enemies at the start of combat, but then once we're a round or two in, the fighter and rogue might be engaged with enemies, meaning that AoEs are trickier to place, and casters need to go to single-target spells instead.

[sophontteks]

With each hex representing 5 feet of space I think its pretty common for combat to start off with both sides bunched up unless one was ambushing the other, or if one was expecting to be ambushed themselves. And even then, proper tactical cohesion would naturally have melee combatants adjacent to one another in order to hold a position, prevent one of them from getting surrounded, and to prevent the enemy from running by them.

The risk of AOE spells is a bit overshadowed by the risk of the enemy engaging the backline in melee. Most casters wouldn't need two feats just to maintain concentration. That makes me worry about your party's own tactics if the enemy is able to so easily push past your front line so regularly.

[Tanarii]

Well, not exactly. But at the beginning of combat, especially if we sneak up on a group, there may be certain bunches of enemies. For instance, if we sneak up on a camp of Orcs, there might be several around the campfire, several in tents spread around the site, and a few guards at different points. A well-placed AoE in this case might get all of the ones sitting around the campfire, for instance.I agree it's reasonable if you're ambushing, or walking down a trail and bump into some enemies.


Other times, an AoE might get a few enemies at the start of combat, but then once we're a round or two in, the fighter and rogue might be engaged with enemies, meaning that AoEs are trickier to place, and casters need to go to single-target spells instead.Not disputing that. Initiative is valuable for AoE casters just for this. It's the assumption of bunching in an outdoor setting (because Call Lightning under discussion) that seemed off to me.


With each hex representing 5 feet of space I think its pretty common for combat to start off with both sides bunched up unless one was ambushing the other, or if one was expecting to be ambushed themselves. And even then, proper tactical cohesion would naturally have melee combatants adjacent to one another in order to hold a position, prevent one of them from getting surrounded, and to prevent the enemy from running by them.Fairly uncommon in outdoor combat scenarios, because missile fire is far more powerful with outdoor skirmish-size units, and most groups generally assume in-game people know magic exists and punishes grouping. An army might stay grouped, but a small group of 3-6 skirmishers wouldn't. And IMX most DMs set up battles appropriately. If we were talking about army platoons or dungeons I'd expect different.

[strangebloke]

I think how good or bad AOE blasting is is mostly dependent on how your GM runs encounters. Hordes of little guys? AOE is neccesary. One big dragon? Waste of time.




As an aside, do y'all's DMs really start enemies all bunched up and vulnerable to AoEs? Especially outdoors, that just seems weird.

Sometimes. I mean, a twenty foot radius is a big area. It's big enough that if a wolf is attacking soldier 1 on one side of the circle, soldier 2 on the other side can't get to him and help him in one round.

In most setting's I've worked in, magic is reasonably common but you're still less likely to run into a fifth level wizard than you are to run into an owlbear or similar sort of monster. With the wizard you want to be spread out. With the owlbear (or if you're up against a force of non-magical troops) you want to be packed together.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I think how good or bad AOE blasting is is mostly dependent on how your GM runs encounters. Hordes of little guys? AOE is neccesary. One big dragon? Waste of time.



Sometimes. I mean, a twenty foot radius is a big area. It's big enough that if a wolf is attacking soldier 1 on one side of the circle, soldier 2 on the other side can't get to him and help him in one round.

In most setting's I've worked in, magic is reasonably common but you're still less likely to run into a fifth level wizard than you are to run into an owlbear or similar sort of monster. With the wizard you want to be spread out. With the owlbear (or if you're up against a force of non-magical troops) you want to be packed together.

Party makeup changes this equation, too. Parties with smaller characters are a bit less mobile. Some parties might be tilted more towards heavy armor and lose mobility that way. Others might use buffs that require the party to stay together. As the party packs more tightly together, non-ranged enemies will have to clump together to attack them, especially if one or more party members have abilities that can close off particular paths or fronts and create choke points.

[Xheotris]

We had a tempest cleric in CoS who was absolutely legendary. His maxed thunderwave and spirit guardians turned the tide on multiple occasions. Moonbeam from the druid was also situationally helpful, when we could get the enemies to climb up after us, so we could stack them in a column and knock them down.

[sophontteks]

Fairly uncommon in outdoor combat scenarios, because missile fire is far more powerful with outdoor skirmish-size units, and most groups generally assume in-game people know magic exists and punishes grouping. An army might stay grouped, but a small group of 3-6 skirmishers wouldn't. And IMX most DMs set up battles appropriately. If we were talking about army platoons or dungeons I'd expect different.
I'm just pointing out that there are valid reasons to bunch up. AOE spells aren't so common in most places that creatures are scared to stand within 5 feet of one another. And there are a host of other things that can pick off isolated targets just as easily.

[krazedkoi]

I agree with a lot of what's been said in the thread

1) initiative is more important than making those concentration saves (unless you're taking a lot of ranged/magic hate that's forcing you to save all the time
2) Spirit Guardians and Thunderwave are going to be epic spells for you once combat has gone on for a round or two
3) Call Lightning is "hybrid AoE" or "AoE light" - it does decent damage per hit and hits at MOST 4 enemies, but has good range and is a small enough radius that its easier to thread in combat once your frontline is engaged
4) your frontline should be blocking for you OR you should be throwing out Thunderwave more often. Just because you start Call Lightning doesn't mean it should be the only spell you cast in a combat

[Xetheral]

As an aside, do y'all's DMs really start enemies all bunched up and vulnerable to AoEs? Especially outdoors, that just seems weird.

In my campaigns the PCs usually try to parley first, and that naturally leads to grouping so that everyone can participate. Alternatively, groups of travelers on a road are likely conversing as they travel, so they will also be grouped up.

Just about the only (outdoor, non-ambush) situation where people wouldn't start grouped up is when moving through hostile territory and expecting to be attacked. Sure, that situation comes up regularly, but it's still a minority of such encounters in my games.

[Merudo]

My main issue is this, to maintain concentration on AOE concentration blasting spells (like call lightning), you need warcaster, resilient (con) and a high con to start with. After putting in all that effort, I find little chances of casting call lightning that blasts a large number monsters, while not hurting your teammates. The monsters spread out after the first round of combat and in most rounds, I only hit 2 monsters, which is definitely not worth the effort. Martials easily do more damage (albeit to one enemy) without investing much in terms of feats.


Call Lightning is often a trap for Tempest Clerics.

Unless enemies stay at about 60+ feet away from you for a significant portion of the fight, it's rather inefficient to cast it.

Call Lightning does 3d10 damage, while Spirit Guardians does 3d8. That's on average a mere 3 damage less (1.5 if they make the save).

Usually, you can hit more enemies with Spirit Guardians than with Call Lightning, because Spirit Guardians has both a much greater area of effect than Call Lightning, and is party friendly as well. So right off the bat, unless you face spread out archers or something, Spirit Guardians will hit more targets and end up doing more damage.

On top of that, Spirit Guardians doesn't take an action to activate once cast, so you're free to keep smashing enemies or casting spells.

95%+ of the time, Spirit Guardians comes far ahead of Call Lightning, it's not even funny.

If you want to do some AoE blasting, you should cast the excellent Shatter instead. Still, you'll have to wait until the almost OP Destructive Wave before you can truly compare to the Wizard & Light Cleric.

[Strangways]

Hi everyone,

I picked a tempest cleric to specialize in AOE blasting, thinking that as a party of 5, we would get a lot of monsters coming at us.

However, after playing many games, I feel underwhelmed, and I was hoping to find out what other people's experiences are and to see what I am doing wrong.

My main issue is this, to maintain concentration on AOE concentration blasting spells (like call lightning), you need warcaster, resilient (con) and a high con to start with. After putting in all that effort, I find little chances of casting call lightning that blasts a large number monsters, while not hurting your teammates. The monsters spread out after the first round of combat and in most rounds, I only hit 2 monsters, which is definitely not worth the effort. Martials easily do more damage (albeit to one enemy) without investing much in terms of feats.

I can of course cast spiritual guardians as a cleric, but does that mean AOE blasting is only effective with spells that don't hurt your teammates? If that's the case, it severely limits AOE blasting, leading it (and the tempest cleric with it) to be underwhelming.

Any help/advice would be great, thanks!

Cleric is a very versatile class. The real specialist in AoE blasting is the Evocation Wizard, or a Sorcerer with certain metamagic selections. The major selling point of the Evocation Wizard is the ability to fireball a crowded melee situation, hitting only enemies while sculpting allies out of the impact.

As a Cleric, you can certainly do AoE blasting, but you're selling your class short if you concentrate on that to the exclusion of other things the cleric can do, like single target attacks, buffing your allies, healing your allies, and using whatever your subclasses's channel divinity can do. Save the AoE for the fights where it's useful and concentrate on other stuff when it's not.

[CTurbo]

Tempest Clerics are AWESOME. If you're feeling underwhelmed I have to wonder if you went wrong somewhere in the character building.

Can you tell us about your character?

Also, there is a certain learning curve needed for your teammates to understand how to utilize your talents the best. They can learn to help wrangle the enemies together sometimes instead of running in the middle of them and dividing them. I have to admit that I taught them the hard way as would not hesitate to drop a max Shatter right on top of them if it meant ending an encounter. I outright KOed some of my party members on several occasions knowing that I could just revive them afterwards with Spare the Dying, Revivify, etc...
Being able to max thunder/lightning spells was epic nearly every time I did it which was pretty much twice per encounter. In fact, it was so OP, I felt like I was stealing the show more times than not.

I didn't use Call Lightning very often. I viewed that as my far range Blaster spell only using it from far away. I much preferred upcasting Shatter or Thunderwave which both out damage Call Lightning from a 3rd level slot and hit more people. Shatter in particular was my go-to. It hits up to 12-16 people depending on how the DM rules it.


With Plate + Shield and a 20AC, you should't be getting hit so often that losing concentration is a huge concern even without Res(Con) or Warcaster. All of my Tempest builds have been front line tanky warriors. I decided to mix up my latest one as a Dex build just to be different. Of course Res or warcaster are both great and any class that relies on concentration spells should have one or the other.

The Tempest is so much more than just an AOE blaster too. There is a ton of control and utility built in. You can tank, heal, buff, support, control, and blast. I made a great use of Gust of Wind and Sleet Storm. I found Sleet Storm to be especially useful. 6 enemy knights approaching on horseback? Sleet Storm and now they're all prone

Anyway, give it more of a chance. You can literally just sit out in melee with Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, taking the dodge action and shocking enemies that do hit you with your reaction.

After seeing how strong this class was when played properly, I actually rolled up a melee focused Tempest and actually prioritized Str over Wis and tossed my shield in favor of a greatsword. Was still a ton of fun to play.

Also, even though I always had the usually healing spells, I rarely spent much time healing. Really only when I absolutely had to.

[Ding]

In most setting's I've worked in, magic is reasonably common but you're still less likely to run into a fifth level wizard than you are to run into an owlbear or similar sort of monster. With the wizard you want to be spread out. With the owlbear (or if you're up against a force of non-magical troops) you want to be packed together.

I think this idea is the root of the dispute, here. In the real world, it was almost always advantageous for medieval-era melee fighters to group up and stay close together, because as mentioned above they can gang up on enemies, block enemies from reaching the back line, prevent one another from getting surrounded, etc. If you have to defend against enemies on three or four sides, you're pretty screwed. But in D&D, magic is a thing, providing AoE damage that most of the time did not exist in the real medieval era and severely punishes compact formations. Our real-life common sense says it's fine or even expected for melee fighters to group up as a general strategy, but in terms of D&D combat, it's often not a good idea. I can understand DMs choosing to do it either way; one better simulates real-life tactics, while the other is better suited to avoiding the magical nukes of most D&D settings.

[Tanarii]

I didn't use Call Lightning very often. I viewed that as my far range Blaster spell only using it from far away.
Yeah, good point. Call Ligntning is definition more of a long ranged attack. It has a range of 120 ft, which is very far for what a Cleric (or Druid) can do with spells, are well beyond their cantrip range. Guiding Bolt is the only other Cleric spell list alternative at lower levels.


I think this idea is the root of the dispute, here. In the real world, it was almost always advantageous for medieval-era melee fighters to group up and stay close together, because as mentioned above they can gang up on enemies, block enemies from reaching the back line, prevent one another from getting surrounded, etc. If you have to defend against enemies on three or four sides, you're pretty screwed.
Actually, the point of dispute was we're talking outdoors, because call lighting. And in the real world, it's often far superior to spread out a bit and be ranged attacker skirmishers when it comes to small squads engaging in combat, not be bunched up melee attackers.

If you're traveling and getting ambushed in camp or suddenly from a nearby treeline, or standing in two groups talking to each other, it'd be different. Those are two situations where initiative and the beginning of combat line up with no prior pre-combat maneuvering appropriately situations. But IMX most D&D outdoors combats don't begin with enemies appearing out of nowhere while you're walking along a road, or combat erupting while you're talking to them. A DM should be placing enemies on a initial battlefield appropriately to what's going on, and bunched up isn't how most creatures or PCs will approach an outdoor combat situation.

[sophontteks]

Yeah, good point. Call Ligntning is definition more of a long ranged attack. It has a range of 120 ft, which is very far for what a Cleric (or Druid) can do with spells, are well beyond their cantrip range. Guiding Bolt is the only other Cleric spell list alternative at lower levels.


Actually, the point of dispute was we're talking outdoors, because call lighting. And in the real world, it's often far superior to spread out a bit and be ranged attacker skirmishers when it comes to small squads engaging in combat, not be bunched up melee attackers.

If you're traveling and getting ambushed in camp or suddenly from a nearby treeline, or standing in two groups talking to each other, it'd be different. Those are two situations where initiative and the beginning of combat line up with no prior pre-combat maneuvering appropriately situations. But IMX most D&D outdoors combats don't begin with enemies appearing out of nowhere while you're walking along a road, or combat erupting while you're talking to them. A DM should be placing enemies on a initial battlefield appropriately to what's going on, and bunched up isn't how most creatures or PCs will approach an outdoor combat situation.
Yes in ambushes units would spread out. In mutual encounters, they would all be travelling bunched up and they would spread out at first opportunity. Thats why high initiative is so good for AOE. Kill them before they can spread out.

[djreynolds]

Say what you want, but 2 levels of evocation wizard is awesome with tempest cleric

So do not dump intelligence, and snag evocation sculpt spell.... works with all evocation spells regardless of arcane or divine

I find it allows me to be even more "blastier"

[Tanarii]

Yes in ambushes units would spread out. In mutual encounters, they would all be travelling bunched up and they would spread out at first opportunity. Thats why high initiative is so good for AOE. Kill them before they can spread out.Why would combat begin with them all traveling? They'd spread out when hostile action looked imminent, before combat starts.

If you're starting combat the second two sides see each other while traveling along, something funky is going on. If they're traveling in a dangerous area where that's likely, they'll already be spread out to begin with. Otherwise, it's an ambush on one side.

[ttchong]

Sure. Campaign wise, we are combat heavy, so 2, sometimes 3 big fights in a day. Since we are a party of 5, I assumed we will have many enemies coming at us, which is true of our campaign.

Let me tell you more about the reasoning behind my Tempest Cleric choice and build. Our party did not have much AOE damage , so I was happy to go for it. Since we are fighting multiple big fights a day, I thought I needed AOE concentration spells, to save spell slots. Also, from an optimization perspective, it makes sense to cast a spell that could do damage multiple rounds (if you can hold concentration), rather than one off spells. When I built my character, I looked at the forums, and for AOE blasting wise, only a few classes suit. Among those few classes, I read that Tempest Clerics are generally one of the strongest Cleric class, and they do well with AOE blasting (For example: The Celestial Link Evoking Radiance Into Creation - CLERIC guide by mellored ). Most Cleric guides (including the above) also say Call Lightning is probably one of the best AOE spells, so my idea was to build the best Tempest Cleric that specializes on AOE concentration damage spells. I would also heal, cast bless, and cast single AOE damage spells like Shatter dependent on the situation, but my bread and butter would be to cast this one big AOE damage concentration spell to increase our team's overall damage output.

Hence, I built my character with this in mind, so choosing to stay at the back with Dex rather than Str (among the many reasons, my melee damage is going to fall off anyway, so I thought, no need to risk staying in front. In addition we already have 2 tanks in our party). Taking Resilient (Con) and Warcaster also fits into what I wanted to do. Many of you have spoken about going first in initiative to put that AOE blast in the first turn, and I did think about this when creating my character (part of the reason I went Dex, and took proficiency in stealth), but I thought that since I was doing multiple-round AOE concentration spells, that isn't as important as taking the two aforementioned feats.

So my character is a hill dwarf tempest cleric Level 8 (I rolled above average stats at level 1)

Current Stats after modifiers and feats
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 18
Int: 8
Wis: 18
Cha: 12

I wear a Breastplate and shield, giving me AC 18 while allowing me to stealth. First 2 feats I took are Resilient(Con) and Warcaster. Played for many sessions and getting more and more underwhelmed (see my first post), hence asking for all of your help/advice. Any help/advice would be very much appreciated!

Also, many of you suggest that I might be playing Tempest Cleric incorrectly, can you tell us what is the right way to play a tempest cleric then? Thanks!




Tempest Clerics are AWESOME. If you're feeling underwhelmed I have to wonder if you went wrong somewhere in the character building.

Can you tell us about your character?

Also, there is a certain learning curve needed for your teammates to understand how to utilize your talents the best. They can learn to help wrangle the enemies together sometimes instead of running in the middle of them and dividing them. I have to admit that I taught them the hard way as would not hesitate to drop a max Shatter right on top of them if it meant ending an encounter. I outright KOed some of my party members on several occasions knowing that I could just revive them afterwards with Spare the Dying, Revivify, etc...
Being able to max thunder/lightning spells was epic nearly every time I did it which was pretty much twice per encounter. In fact, it was so OP, I felt like I was stealing the show more times than not.

I didn't use Call Lightning very often. I viewed that as my far range Blaster spell only using it from far away. I much preferred upcasting Shatter or Thunderwave which both out damage Call Lightning from a 3rd level slot and hit more people. Shatter in particular was my go-to. It hits up to 12-16 people depending on how the DM rules it.


With Plate + Shield and a 20AC, you should't be getting hit so often that losing concentration is a huge concern even without Res(Con) or Warcaster. All of my Tempest builds have been front line tanky warriors. I decided to mix up my latest one as a Dex build just to be different. Of course Res or warcaster are both great and any class that relies on concentration spells should have one or the other.

The Tempest is so much more than just an AOE blaster too. There is a ton of control and utility built in. You can tank, heal, buff, support, control, and blast. I made a great use of Gust of Wind and Sleet Storm. I found Sleet Storm to be especially useful. 6 enemy knights approaching on horseback? Sleet Storm and now they're all prone

Anyway, give it more of a chance. You can literally just sit out in melee with Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, taking the dodge action and shocking enemies that do hit you with your reaction.

After seeing how strong this class was when played properly, I actually rolled up a melee focused Tempest and actually prioritized Str over Wis and tossed my shield in favor of a greatsword. Was still a ton of fun to play.

Also, even though I always had the usually healing spells, I rarely spent much time healing. Really only when I absolutely had to.

[CTurbo]

Sure. Campaign wise, we are combat heavy, so 2, sometimes 3 big fights in a day. Since we are a party of 5, I assumed we will have many enemies coming at us, which is true of our campaign.

Let me tell you more about the reasoning behind my Tempest Cleric choice and build. Our party did not have much AOE damage , so I was happy to go for it. Since we are fighting multiple big fights a day, I thought I needed AOE concentration spells, to save spell slots. Also, from an optimization perspective, it makes sense to cast a spell that could do damage multiple rounds (if you can hold concentration), rather than one off spells. When I built my character, I looked at the forums, and for AOE blasting wise, only a few classes suit. Among those few classes, I read that Tempest Clerics are generally one of the strongest Cleric class, and they do well with AOE blasting (For example: The Celestial Link Evoking Radiance Into Creation - CLERIC guide by mellored ). Most Cleric guides (including the above) also say Call Lightning is probably one of the best AOE spells, so my idea was to build the best Tempest Cleric that specializes on AOE concentration damage spells. I would also heal, cast bless, and cast single AOE damage spells like Shatter dependent on the situation, but my bread and butter would be to cast this one big AOE damage concentration spell to increase our team's overall damage output.

Hence, I built my character with this in mind, so choosing to stay at the back with Dex rather than Str (among the many reasons, my melee damage is going to fall off anyway, so I thought, no need to risk staying in front. In addition we already have 2 tanks in our party). Taking Resilient (Con) and Warcaster also fits into what I wanted to do. Many of you have spoken about going first in initiative to put that AOE blast in the first turn, and I did think about this when creating my character (part of the reason I went Dex, and took proficiency in stealth), but I thought that since I was doing multiple-round AOE concentration spells, that isn't as important as taking the two aforementioned feats.

So my character is a hill dwarf tempest cleric Level 8 (I rolled above average stats at level 1)

Current Stats after modifiers and feats
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 18
Int: 8
Wis: 18
Cha: 12

I wear a Breastplate and shield, giving me AC 18 while allowing me to stealth. First 2 feats I took are Resilient(Con) and Warcaster. Played for many sessions and getting more and more underwhelmed (see my first post), hence asking for all of your help/advice. Any help/advice would be very much appreciated!

Also, many of you suggest that I might be playing Tempest Cleric incorrectly, can you tell us what is the right way to play a tempest cleric then? Thanks!



You have an 18 Con, Res(Con), Warcaster, and you're STILL having trouble keeping concentration? That doesn't seem right. How often are you getting hit if you're staying in the back?

How often are you getting to use your Destructive Wrath? Are you using your other control spells or are you just going for all damage all the time?

I think you would benefit from the Alert feat. You could start off most encounters by nuking the enemies before they can disperse. Like I said before, make use of some upcasted Shatter whenever possible. The DM sent a pack of 22 Gnolls at us one time and a maxed Shatter killed 14 of them at once before they even got to us, and we were only at level 2 or 3.

Talk to your group about keeping the battlefield nuke friendly as in helping you keep enemies together instead of dividing them up. Don't be afraid to nuke your friends too if it means ending as encounter. You can always heal them back up afterwards.

With your stats and feats, your Tempest should be unstoppable. I would probably still stay on or near the front lines a lot if I was playing him. I still think Clerics are best down in the thick of things.

Medium Armor Master would get you +2 AC if you can get into HalfPlate and still be able to Stealth.

[djreynolds]

Are you alive? Check
Party Alive? Check

You are doing well.

My thing is some of your "cleric" spells are wasted.

Spirit Guardians is a fantastic type of "AoE" centered on yourself, it helps to create a possible haven for other party members. This radiant damage allows for you to move around the battlefield creating havoc on the enemy. Usually forcing them away from you creating chaos other party members can take advantage of.

Also it allows you to be in range to provide healing, unlike the wizard a mile off.

Your party may not need you to be the damage dealer, the great thing about the cleric is they can cover almost all aspects in battle.
Healing, buffing, de-buffing, AoE, single target, ranged spells, melee spells, and just straight up attacking. Very good saves.

So IMO, you are playing a cleric as a wizard might, and there is nothing wrong with this, as a cleric has the chops to do this, also land druids.

Do not be afraid of melee, plenty of finesse fighter types who do it. Here is where spirit guardians shines.

And yes you did roll very well, most observations here are based on standard array or point buy

[Laserlight]

I picked a tempest cleric to specialize in AOE blasting

That was your error right there. Tempest cleric is great at a number of things, but it's not the ideal AoE blaster. That said, when you do find 20 hobgoblins in formation outside the tomb you were looting, and they weren't expecting a caster, well, the fight was over when the cleric took her first action.

[Contrast]

You have an 18 Con, Res(Con), Warcaster, and you're STILL having trouble keeping concentration? That doesn't seem right. How often are you getting hit if you're staying in the back?

Yeah seriously, what?

You have +7 and advantage on concentration checks. That means you should pretty much be auto-passing anything up to 20 damage; getting up to 40-50 damage still gives you a half chance of maintaining. If you're consistently taking that much damage then you have other problems surely?

[ttchong]

I can keep my concentration easily, the problem I have is my concentration spells like call lightning is underwhelming (only hits 1 or 2 targets per round) after spending 2 feats and putting high stats into con. As I said before, as an example a fighter doesn't need much setup and can do that much damage per round.

Yes I am using control spells. My point is that going AOE Blasting with concentration seems underwhelming, and I hope to be proven wrong.



You have an 18 Con, Res(Con), Warcaster, and you're STILL having trouble keeping concentration? That doesn't seem right. How often are you getting hit if you're staying in the back?

How often are you getting to use your Destructive Wrath? Are you using your other control spells or are you just going for all damage all the time?

I think you would benefit from the Alert feat. You could start off most encounters by nuking the enemies before they can disperse. Like I said before, make use of some upcasted Shatter whenever possible. The DM sent a pack of 22 Gnolls at us one time and a maxed Shatter killed 14 of them at once before they even got to us, and we were only at level 2 or 3.

Talk to your group about keeping the battlefield nuke friendly as in helping you keep enemies together instead of dividing them up. Don't be afraid to nuke your friends too if it means ending as encounter. You can always heal them back up afterwards.

With your stats and feats, your Tempest should be unstoppable. I would probably still stay on or near the front lines a lot if I was playing him. I still think Clerics are best down in the thick of things.

Medium Armor Master would get you +2 AC if you can get into HalfPlate and still be able to Stealth.

[Tanarii]

What ranges do most of your outdoor encounters begin at? How quickly do they close to 60 ft or less?

[PhantomSoul]

I can keep my concentration easily, the problem I have is my concentration spells like call lightning is underwhelming (only hits 1 or 2 targets per round) after spending 2 feats and putting high stats into con. As I said before, as an example a fighter doesn't need much setup and can do that much damage per round.

Yes I am using control spells. My point is that going AOE Blasting with concentration seems underwhelming, and I hope to be proven wrong.

Are you targeting 1 or 2 creatures per round, or hitting 1 or 2 creatures per round? It may seem pedantic, but there's a big difference in potential scenarios: if you're fighting creatures that aren't bunched together and/or won't bunch together and/or are small in number, an AoE is probably not your best spell to cast at that moment. And Call Lightning is barely an AoE to begin with, since the range is so small (meaning the problem of targets being far apart is magnified). Compare it to the hallmark AoE of the same level: Fireball has an astonishingly area of effect, which is why it's much easier to position to hit lots of enemies (at the risk of friends, of course, depending on your [sub]class). The Fighter is expected to do more damage than Call Lightning in sub-optimal contexts for Call Lightning (Call Lightning is level 3, so multiattack), but won't do half damage at the worst of times. A 60-foot radius is massive, though, so you can also reach creatures way more spread out with that spell than a melee Fighter (because that Fighter won't have enough movement). Your ideal scenario for Call Lightning is probably scattered clumps of creatures (explicitly not scattered creatures, but acceptable a single big clump of creatures). If the context doesn't match Call Lightning, using another spell -- whether it's an AoE or not -- or attacking melee/ranged would be a better bet.

[CTurbo]

Well like I said, I rarely used Call Lightning. Go sit out in melee with Spirit Guardians and use Thunderwave and Shatter more often. The Tempest IS a great AoE blaster. I just think Call Lightning is not the best choice.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, definitely better to think of it as a way of giving yourself a Wis-based 120 ft ranged attack doing 3d10 (save 1/2) for up to 10 minutes. That's not nothing for a Cleric (or Druid), but it's not always what you're going to want to use your concentration on.

[Afrodactyl]

In my experience, if you're running a blaster and you want a ranged AOE spell, choose one that scales well, and just have the one. Fireball, shatter, whatever one you pick just keep it in your back pocket for when you need it. It may not be useful all of the time, but when you need it, you'll need it.

Spells like Spirit Guardians are different in my opinion because it's also huge control and area denial because mobs are likely to be actively trying to get away from the walking wall of murder-ghosts rather than staying in it.

[krazedkoi]

I think the crux of your problem is you expect Call Lightning to do more than it does.
It is a very good spell to use if the enemy are in small, tight groups at range, OR if you have lots of single targets spread out and need to be able to just drop 3d10 every round (like a super heavy crossbow).
It is NOT a great spell once combat has moved to melee range, Spirit Guardian, Shatter and Thunderwave all have better areas of effect.
With your AC, HP and your concentration bonuses you should have no fear about dropping Spirit Guardians and being in the mid-line or front line.

In one of my games my player party has a druid, a cleric and a sorcerer, so spirit guardians, call lightning and shatter/fireball/lightning bolt have all seen a lot of use.
Call Lightning proved to be most effective for hitting small groups or well covered single targets at range (nuking archers and casters in the back line) while the front line engaged. It disrupted concentration spells and does good damage to casters and often my archers are less than beefy mooks so the 3d10 was significant damage. The sharpshooting ranger and the druid had a thing where they'd focus fire threats to do 3d10+2d8+14 a round.

Shatter is still the most commonly cast damage spell in my game. it's small enough of a radius to not just hit your whole party, hits a big enough area that it'll usually catch a decent number of enemies, its a con save and can be up-cast for more deeps.

Spirit Guardians has been a game changer. The cleric mulches groups of lower level mooks with it. In one instance they used dimension door to drop the cleric into the middle of a group of undead. She frequently will charge the largest group of low-HP flunkies, even risking reaction attacks just to get into the best position and then act as area denial.

hope something here was useful to you

[Sigreid]

True AOE effectiveness requires one or both of two things. Understanding and coordination of tactics with your team and/or the Evoker spell sculpting power.

[ttchong]

Thanks krazedkoi,

This has been very helpful. Just out of curiosity, why don't you cast Fireball instead of Call Lightning to hit the back line? Also, why don't you cast Fireball instead of Shatter as well? Fireball does more damage.

My conclusion from all these wonderful posts is that maybe I should not have taken 2 feats to pump my constitution save since Fireball/Shatter seems much more useful than Call Lightning/Spirit Guardians. Perhaps it was better to get to 20 Dex and take the Alert Feat. What does everyone think?




I think the crux of your problem is you expect Call Lightning to do more than it does.
It is a very good spell to use if the enemy are in small, tight groups at range, OR if you have lots of single targets spread out and need to be able to just drop 3d10 every round (like a super heavy crossbow).
It is NOT a great spell once combat has moved to melee range, Spirit Guardian, Shatter and Thunderwave all have better areas of effect.
With your AC, HP and your concentration bonuses you should have no fear about dropping Spirit Guardians and being in the mid-line or front line.

In one of my games my player party has a druid, a cleric and a sorcerer, so spirit guardians, call lightning and shatter/fireball/lightning bolt have all seen a lot of use.
Call Lightning proved to be most effective for hitting small groups or well covered single targets at range (nuking archers and casters in the back line) while the front line engaged. It disrupted concentration spells and does good damage to casters and often my archers are less than beefy mooks so the 3d10 was significant damage. The sharpshooting ranger and the druid had a thing where they'd focus fire threats to do 3d10+2d8+14 a round.

Shatter is still the most commonly cast damage spell in my game. it's small enough of a radius to not just hit your whole party, hits a big enough area that it'll usually catch a decent number of enemies, its a con save and can be up-cast for more deeps.

Spirit Guardians has been a game changer. The cleric mulches groups of lower level mooks with it. In one instance they used dimension door to drop the cleric into the middle of a group of undead. She frequently will charge the largest group of low-HP flunkies, even risking reaction attacks just to get into the best position and then act as area denial.

hope something here was useful to you

[CTurbo]

Thanks krazedkoi,

This has been very helpful. Just out of curiosity, why don't you cast Fireball instead of Call Lightning to hit the back line? Also, why don't you cast Fireball instead of Shatter as well? Fireball does more damage.

My conclusion from all these wonderful posts is that maybe I should not have taken 2 feats to pump my constitution save since Fireball/Shatter seems much more useful than Call Lightning/Spirit Guardians. Perhaps it was better to get to 20 Dex and take the Alert Feat. What does everyone think?


Tempest doesn't get access to Fireball, and even if they did, they can't max the damage of it. A maxed Shatter with a 3rd level slot will out damage an average Fireball anyway.

I think you should use Spirit Guardians, Shatter, and Thunderwave more often.

[Deathtongue]

The problem with relying on Shatter long-term is that Constitution is generically the best save of monsters and it'll only get worse as the game goes on.

Hordes of monsters never really goes out of style in 5E (and CR 1/2 - 5 monsters are noticeably less likely to have good CON saves), so it'll never be useless, but if you're using Shatter as your AoE you should get used to the DM saying 'everyone but the mage takes 16 damage from your level 3 shatter'.