Can you Crit Fish with Archery?

[Edgerunner]

3rd lvl Elven Ranger(2)/Rogue(1), Archery fighting style, 19DEX and 18CON while using a Heavy Crossbow.

Was going to go Rogue to 4 and then Ranger to 5 so 2x ASI and an Extra attack by LvL 9.

For the 1st Feat I am looking @ Elven Accuracy and the extra d20 on DEX attacks. For the 2nd Feat Crossbow Master to get the Bonus Action hand crossbow attack.

Is this conducive to Crit Fishing or should I be going about this differently?

[PeteNutButter]

3rd lvl Elven Ranger(2)/Rogue(1), Archery fighting style, 19DEX and 18CON while using a Heavy Crossbow.

Was going to go Rogue to 4 and then Ranger to 5 so 2x ASI and an Extra attack by LvL 9.

For the 1st Feat I am looking @ Elven Accuracy and the extra d20 on DEX attacks. For the 2nd Feat Crossbow Master to get the Bonus Action hand crossbow attack.

Is this conducive to Crit Fishing or should I be going about this differently?

You'll need some way to get advantage with your attacks regularly. In your case that'll be likely relying on teamwork.

[Temperjoke]

Is it weird that my mind went to "Why are you trying to shoot fish in a barrel?"

[strangebloke]

obligatory:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?551329-Terrible-Terrible-Damage-A-Crit-Fishing-Mini-Guide

With that out of the way, the short answer is... yes. Rather, you can make a crit focused build.

Champion with Elven accuracy and a teammate will to help him will get all the crits anyone can be expected to get. His crits won't deal much damage though, so in all reality, I would recommend he get out of the class sometime after level three to explore options like the rogue and ranger.

Hexblade archer works, and has a decent crit chance, and can get advantage from range. You won't be able to eldritch smite from range, but otherwise this works pretty much fine. (why wouldn't you just go eldritch blast though?) A high-level build like vBard 10 / Hex 2 is really the way to go, but won't get good until late.

My favorite crit-focused build is a bugbear gloomstalker 5/assassin x. You are a master of stealth, and if you get the first round of attacks off, you just murder everything. Free crits, extra damage, and extra attacks.

2d8l(longbow)+2d8(dread ambusher)+4d6(ambush)+2d6(hunter's mark)+Xd6(sneak attack) +10 (sharpshooter) +5(Dexterity), with all three attacks being made at advantage from 300 feet away is just tasty.

[ImproperJustice]

Is it weird that my mind went to "Why are you trying to shoot fish in a barrel?"

I had the exact same though ans was going to recommend using a hold spell which affects aquatic life or going asassin and studying the fish closely.

[MadBear]

You'll need some way to get advantage with your attacks regularly. In your case that'll be likely relying on teamwork.

I think he'll be trying to rely on the rogues hiding using his bonus action.


I don't think this will be the most effective character, but it would be a fun character to play. I might suggest the revised rangers Deep Stalker ability. This will allow you at 3rd level to have an extra attack in the first round of combat. It's not as good as the full extra attack feature, but it will come online 2 levels earlier, and help make up for the deficit in your number of attacks.

Between this, natural explorer granting you advantage on initiative in the first round of combat, the assassins advantage on anyone you go before, the 2 attacks in the first round (or three with crossbow expert), and elven accuracy, you should get crits pretty often.

[strangebloke]

3rd lvl Elven Ranger(2)/Rogue(1), Archery fighting style, 19DEX and 18CON while using a Heavy Crossbow.

Was going to go Rogue to 4 and then Ranger to 5 so 2x ASI and an Extra attack by LvL 9.

For the 1st Feat I am looking @ Elven Accuracy and the extra d20 on DEX attacks. For the 2nd Feat Crossbow Master to get the Bonus Action hand crossbow attack.

Is this conducive to Crit Fishing or should I be going about this differently?

Just realized that I didn't answer your post.

You're doing great on crit-fishing! Granted, you don't have a crit-range-expansion ability, but those are pretty rare. I would recommend assassin and gloomstalker. Be very stealthy, have lots of places to hide, crit when you get the drop on the enemy and get lots of extra damage.

[CantigThimble]

Might champion fighter be better than ranger for this build?

[Edgerunner]

Might champion fighter be better than ranger for this build?

Already LvL 3 so....

[strangebloke]

Might champion fighter be better than ranger for this build?

Champion is a staple of any dedicated crit-fishing build, yeah. But assassinate is a good method of proccing crits as well.

[CantigThimble]

Already LvL 3 so....

Ah, you're already playing the character. I thought you were proposing a build while still in character creation.

[Temperjoke]

I had the exact same though ans was going to recommend using a hold spell which affects aquatic life or going asassin and studying the fish closely.

Okay, at least I'm not the only one who read the title that way! :smallbiggrin:

[DrowPiratRobrts]

The biggest problem I see here is the issue of light refraction. Dip a pencil halfway in a glass of water. Notice how the pencil appears to be somewhere it isn't. That said, I would rule that a fisherman could account for this after years, or even months, of practice. So there's no reason RAW that you couldn't go bow fishing and score a crit. Even if you've never done this before you still have an off chance of shooting right through the fish's head or heart. My biggest question is, how many hitpoints does this fish have that you're trying to crit? Surely one bolt from a crossbow should do the trick to even a large bass.

[djreynolds]

Yes, 2 levels of rogue gives you cunning action. So you can use your bonus action to hide, and as an archer you often have this open to you. Maybe a ranger has hunter's mark up and running, might need their bonus action for that.

So I would use a longbow. Your bonus action will be needed for cunning action and this will eat up your BA from crossbow expert

I would shoot and then hide, and next round shoot with advantage and then hide again. Rinse and repeat

Another idea is to have pass without a trace up and running to make this even easier to accomplish, you can't use hunter's mark though.

[Specter]

Yes, it's doable. Are you set on both Ranger and Rogue, or just spitballing? Because Champion 3 would be a nice addition to both classes who are looking to crit.

[Edgerunner]

Yes, it's doable. Are you set on both Ranger and Rogue, or just spitballing? Because Champion 3 would be a nice addition to both classes who are looking to crit.

Already 3rd lvL so... yea kinda set Ranger2 / Rogue1

[Xihirli]

Samurai allows you to get advantage with all weapon attack rolls for one turn as a bonus action a few times a day. Of course, you can't MC Champion and Samurai. Still, if you Action Surge every time you do that it should get you a lot of crits.

[djreynolds]

Wood elf?

Even better.

2 levels of rogue, cunning action, BA hide.

Forget crossbow expert for now, competing bonus actions, grab a bow instead

Grab sharpshooter instead of crossbow expert, the increase in your range will allow you to pick hiding spots that might be out of range.

Also invisibility from a friend is an example

Good luck

[PeteNutButter]

I think he'll be trying to rely on the rogues hiding using his bonus action.


I don't think this will be the most effective character, but it would be a fun character to play. I might suggest the revised rangers Deep Stalker ability. This will allow you at 3rd level to have an extra attack in the first round of combat. It's not as good as the full extra attack feature, but it will come online 2 levels earlier, and help make up for the deficit in your number of attacks.

Between this, natural explorer granting you advantage on initiative in the first round of combat, the assassins advantage on anyone you go before, the 2 attacks in the first round (or three with crossbow expert), and elven accuracy, you should get crits pretty often.


Wood elf?

Even better.

2 levels of rogue, cunning action, BA hide.

Forget crossbow expert for now, competing bonus actions, grab a bow instead

Grab sharpshooter instead of crossbow expert, the increase in your range will allow you to pick hiding spots that might be out of range.

Also invisibility from a friend is an example

Good luck

Hiding only helps with one attack a round and as you mention precludes a potential 3rd attack with hand crossbow. It's a decent solution, but not as optimal as other classes might offer. Advantage half the time is much better than nothing.

[djreynolds]

Hiding only helps with one attack a round and as you mention precludes a potential 3rd attack with hand crossbow. It's a decent solution, but not as optimal as other classes might offer. Advantage half the time is much better than nothing.

Its good for a rogue archer who wants to crit with their sneak attack damage

My build would be 3 champion and maybe 17 rogue, take wood elf and grab wood spells for pass without a trace and elven accuracy

But for a ranger/rogue, IMO, just run crazy all over the battlefield, shoot and hide.

The OP could grab a familiar as well, owl for fly-by

[xen]

obligatory:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?551329-Terrible-Terrible-Damage-A-Crit-Fishing-Mini-Guide

With that out of the way, the short answer is... yes. Rather, you can make a crit focused build.

Champion with Elven accuracy and a teammate will to help him will get all the crits anyone can be expected to get. His crits won't deal much damage though, so in all reality, I would recommend he get out of the class sometime after level three to explore options like the rogue and ranger.

Hexblade archer works, and has a decent crit chance, and can get advantage from range. You won't be able to eldritch smite from range, but otherwise this works pretty much fine. (why wouldn't you just go eldritch blast though?) A high-level build like vBard 10 / Hex 2 is really the way to go, but won't get good until late.

My favorite crit-focused build is a bugbear gloomstalker 5/assassin x. You are a master of stealth, and if you get the first round of attacks off, you just murder everything. Free crits, extra damage, and extra attacks.

2d8l(longbow)+2d8(dread ambusher)+4d6(ambush)+2d6(hunter's mark)+Xd6(sneak attack) +10 (sharpshooter) +5(Dexterity), with all three attacks being made at advantage from 300 feet away is just tasty.

5 levels of hexblade would get him bow smites with improved pact weapon invocation + eldritch smite. Plus another way to crit fish with Hexblade's Curse if he doesn't want to go champion.

Edit: Plus of course darkness/devil's sight shenanigans are great on an archer.

[Asmotherion]

Is it weird that my mind went to "Why are you trying to shoot fish in a barrel?"

At least it makes more sence than me, trying to imagine how on earth could a Fish become an Archer, who would somehow be very good at rolling natural 20s for one reason or the other XD

[2D8HP]

....Champion with Elven accuracy and a teammate will to help him will get all the crits anyone can be expected to get. .


"Teammate"?

Since Elven accuracy only works when one has advantage, I assume that the teammate is granting advantage somehow, how?

From reading the Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?551329-Terrible-Terrible-Damage-A-Crit-Fishing-Mini-Guide) I'm guessing some of the spells listed?

[strangebloke]

"Teammate"?

Since Elven accuracy only works when one has advantage, I assume that the teammate is granting advantage somehow, how?

From reading the Terrible, Terrible Damage: A Crit-Fishing Mini-Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?551329-Terrible-Terrible-Damage-A-Crit-Fishing-Mini-Guide) I'm guessing some of the spells listed?

I actually don't go through ways to get advantage in that guide, simply because there are so many.

Mastermind grants Advantage via help, various spells give advantage like the web spell, the wizard can send his familiar to help you, or cast greater invisibility on you, or blind the target. There's a few ways to get advantage at range but it's a little finicky. There are lots of ways to get advantage of you have a friend's help you.

If you want to hide, a rogue/gloomstalker can hide in lots of places, especially if a wood elf.

[2D8HP]

I actually don't go through ways to get advantage in that guide, simply because there are so many.

Mastermind grants Advantage via help, various spells give advantage like the web spell, the wizard can send his familiar to help you, or cast greater invisibility on you, or blind the target. There's a few ways to get advantage at range but it's a little finicky. There are lots of ways to get advantage of you have a friend's help you.

If you want to hide, a rogue/gloomstalker can hide in lots of places, especially if a wood elf.


Unfortunately, getting advantage from hiding is the only one I'm familiar with.

[Submortimer]

So, yes, you can crit fish, but really...why?

With 1 fighter (for archery) and everything else Hexblade (blade pact) you can pretty easily get upwards of +21 to a given hit, none of which is increased by critical hits.

With Vhuman (taking sharpshooter), by level 13 you're doing 1d8 + 5(charisma) + 5(lifedrinker) + 10(sharpshooter) + 1(improved pact weapon) twice, or 51 avg, with a +7 to hit, and the ability to easily get advantage on those shots. By contrast, EB would be 3d10+15, or 31.5 avg, with a +9 to hit.

[2D8HP]

.....
With 1 fighter (for archery) and everything else Hexblade (blade pact) you can pretty easily get upwards of +......


Yes, but then instead of Robin Hood I'd be playing Faust, or at best James Bond (with "M" as a Patron), which just isn't my jam.

[strangebloke]

Unfortunately, getting advantage from hiding is the only one I'm familiar with.

AFB, but of the top of my head:

Without help:
Hiding(easy if you're invisible)

Samurai fighting sprit.

Vengeance Paladin abjure enemy

True strike (don't do this)

With help:
Anything that imposes 'restrained' or 'paralyzed' condition. Grappler feat, web spell, hold person, etc.

Help action, usually taken by a familiar or Mastermind rogue.

Imposing the binded condition to an enemy. Blindness, the spell, works, but so does putting out the human's campfire. Illusion magic is stellar at effectively blinding folks. Were I your DM, I'd let you blind someone for a turn by throwing sand in their eyes. Invisibility also works.


So, yes, you can crit fish, but really...why?

With 1 fighter (for archery) and everything else Hexblade (blade pact) you can pretty easily get upwards of +21 to a given hit, none of which is increased by critical hits.

With Vhuman (taking sharpshooter), by level 13 you're doing 1d8 + 5(charisma) + 5(lifedrinker) + 10(sharpshooter) + 1(improved pact weapon) twice, or 51 avg, with a +7 to hit, and the ability to easily get advantage on those shots. By contrast, EB would be 3d10+15, or 31.5 avg, with a +9 to hit.

Check the guide I linked.

Crits are great if you build towards using them. A crit deals a little less than double the base damage of an attack. So a +1 to crit range is, both proportionally and absolutely, approximately equivalent to a +1 to attack rolls (ignoring sharpshooter for the moment).

If you get advantage, you are approximately doubling your crit chance. If you get EA advantage, you're nearly tripling it. Remember how I said a +1 to crit range is functionally a +1 to attack? A +1 to crit range with EA is (ignoring sharpshooter) functionally a +3 to attack, on top of the +5 from EA.

Sharpshooter also doubles your base damage on a hit, but it comes at a cost, and that cost is best offset by the same things that you put in a crit fishing build.