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View Full Version : Help with an Exalted Player (2E)



Kevka Palazzo
2007-09-03, 04:22 AM
'lo, all, hope there're enough Exalted fans to help me out here. :smallwink:

Let's not beat around the bush. I'm designing my first Exalted campaign and I've started gathering together players and characters. One of my players is already done, and he's taken a role that I've never had to deal with as a DM before in any game*: the Conqueror of Wills, as I've christened it.

He's a Zenith caste who excels in getting people to listen to him and get them to obey him pretty much utterly (unless of course it goes against their motivation).

Now I have several methods lined up for dealing with his ability to drive people to his side, but the problem lies in being able to do it effectively. He built his character around social combat, so it'd be wrong of me to deny him the use of it. However, there are several problems that he could cause that I need to take care of.

The campaign takes place in the far Northeast, in the Linowan forests, pretty far from the Realm, so pretty far from a lot of major problems (at least problems not particularly covered in the core rulebook). The only thing I've got working for me right now is the peoples' collective mistrust of the Solar Exalted, but this guy could convince people otherwise fairly easily.

Another idea was to bring a Wyld Hunt near enough to put him on edge, and this might be fine, but I'd have a hard time explaining why there's a Wyld Hunt happening at the time in which Exalted 2E starts, especially so far from the Blessed Isle.

If someone could help me with the ideas I have or explain a few others, that'd be awesome.

* Note that this would be my first time DMing an Exalted game, my only experience before this was playing in 1E, so I might not have covered the material fully enough

HidaTsuzua
2007-09-03, 10:01 AM
I'm not completely sure how social combat works in 2E (I assume that it's very similar to physical combat), but I'll try.

Firstly, people with power will have ways to defend themselves. Just like they have bodyguards, they will either have good social skills or someone around to talk for them. Now these will be nice normal mortal level defenses, but it should provide roughly the same challenge as a group of bodyguards should. Maybe he'll have to burn some essence, maybe not.

The big issue is that while you can get trouble for beating up a guy's bodyguard, it isn't likely to be so for sweet talking his majordomo. Even if you fail, you can try again (assuming you can get access to him again). And honestly, it'll be silly to treat conversation as a fight in a legal sense.

It looks like you're trying to find NPCs who can reasonably resist his social graces. I would suggest spirits. I recall they are suppose to be more common in that area of Creation and they can be resistant to persuasion.

Kevka Palazzo
2007-09-03, 12:23 PM
Fortunately, his intentions are to get people to stop following the Immaculate Order. Since for most people, even in Linowan, the Immaculate Order is either a Motivation or at least an Intimacy, he'll have trouble right there even against the average mortal Joe.

As for the Social Combat, it works exactly like normal combat except for some switches with the stats used. For example, Charisma instead of Strength, Performance instead of Martial Arts, depending on the "attack" you want to make. And, of course, instead of taking damage, the "defending" character consents to the demands or persuasions of the "attacker" or refuses and spends a Willpower, and if it's a Motivation or Intimacy that they're being convinced to somehow harm then they have to spend Willpower.

Another difference is that the ticks in Social Combat represent a minute instead of a single second. So a group of Immaculate Monks that were close enough to hear about the Anathema spreading lies and spouting heresy can come in and try to take him out halfway through one of his speeches. They'll never hit him, but he's not good enough at attacking to fight back. Granted, he'll likely not be alone.

Because of this problem alone, I might have to relocate them closer to the Blessed Isle, so they won't try anything for fear of a really quick Dragon-blooded response. Right now if they try anything all they'll have to deal with are Immaculate Monks. Mortal ones at that.

Mortal demagogues are a good counter to him, like you said. It seems more and more I'll have to go that way.

One of the things that bothers me about his companions is that one of them is a Sidereal :smalleek: . But I've got ways to deal with him already.

smellie_hippie
2007-09-11, 11:50 AM
Social Combat with charms can get pretty blatant pretty quick.

A well placed subtle comment might make someone, or a small group of people, question the true motivations of the Immaculate Order. but on a larger scale, it's getting into "obvious" displays of essence.

He sounds like he's set himself up to be able to convince Eskimoes to buy Ice. :smallamused: That's just not something you can do quietly. If he wants to convince the populace to follow him, he'll need to build slowly.

You can also use the fact that if peopel are starting to sway their opinions, they will be talking about it with others. That in and of itself would drawn the attention of the monks, or a Threshold Dynast. Ever try to cover a lie with a lie that you have to hope others will hold to your story and not talk to someone else you lied to? There you go. :smallamused:

Jerthanis
2007-09-11, 01:07 PM
Alternatively, don't bother stopping him. Exalted isn't D&D, where you're expected to fail any roll roughly 50% of the time, and use up resources to overcome significant challenges. Exalts, particularly Solars, aren't expected to fail at anything they really set their minds to, and the only forces that can mount a successful defense is other exalts, and some higher powered elementals/gods/demons. If he's a social build who can talk his way past anyone and convince anyone of anything... it's no different than making a Solar who could wipe out a small city with a couple of thrown charms (I've seen it happen)

The factor that must balance solars is not that mortals can resist in any number, but that the consequences for their success can be far reaching, and doom them in the long run.

To put the fear in them, have someone tell them there's an immaculate monk of high standing, and a Dragonblooded exalt on top of that in the area, inspecting the monastery and so forth. If they are overt about their power and that monk sees them, it could spell a Wyld Hunt for them.

If you must have a situation where a Mortal needs to carry out an agenda, and you can't let the player roll over it, remember that once two willpower points are spent resisting social combat, mind control charms have to be used to continue social combat. If you have several guards with intimacies of keeping their jobs, each stationed at different parts of the compound that the exalts would have to go through to get all the way in to even talk to the leader, then the player will still have to earn his victory by using up a whole lot of essence. Alternatively, if the people he wants to talk to are an underground organization at all, the players could have to track the location down before being able to assault it with their words. Also, remember, Integrity is the Resistance of social combat, and presence/socialize is the parry. Making characters with high numbers in both will at least sometimes slow the exalt down a little bit.

Indon
2007-09-11, 01:39 PM
Now I have several methods lined up for dealing with his ability to drive people to his side, but the problem lies in being able to do it effectively. He built his character around social combat, so it'd be wrong of me to deny him the use of it. However, there are several problems that he could cause that I need to take care of.

The campaign takes place in the far Northeast, in the Linowan forests, pretty far from the Realm, so pretty far from a lot of major problems (at least problems not particularly covered in the core rulebook). The only thing I've got working for me right now is the peoples' collective mistrust of the Solar Exalted, but this guy could convince people otherwise fairly easily.

Another idea was to bring a Wyld Hunt near enough to put him on edge, and this might be fine, but I'd have a hard time explaining why there's a Wyld Hunt happening at the time in which Exalted 2E starts, especially so far from the Blessed Isle.

If someone could help me with the ideas I have or explain a few others, that'd be awesome.


I'm a 1E player, myself, but I say if he wants to build an empire, let him (and if he _doesn't_ want to build an empire but keeps using his ridiculous oratory abilities to convince people of things, he's gonna get a following, eh?). It's not like he wouldn't be absolutely surrounded by threats.

-The spirit courts probably have strong influence in the area. He'll need to establish peace with them.

-The Linowan tribes are awfully close to Lunar influence as well, and the Lunars might not appreciate the influence of another Solar (I seem to recall some sort of 'social experimentation' thing with the 2E Lunars).

-You aren't in the wyld, but it's very easy to be too close to the wyld for comfort.

Add to that threats from other nations (Haltans!), manipulation on a national scale (Sidereals!), the ever-looming threat of the Realm (What does it take to unite the scattered Dynastic factions against a common threat?), and of course the Great Curse, and you have plenty of hooks for interesting adventure; or at least, problems to throw at the party.

tainsouvra
2007-09-11, 02:40 PM
There are two very major things to remember when playing Exalted:
There is always a bigger fish. Although the players are often demigods, there are actual gods out there who could easily best them at their own game. This is one of the reasons for the Solars, who are designed as solo powerhouses, to still want to flock together into small groups. There is always a bigger fish out there. This is not D&D. A newly-created character is still more powerful than any mortal and most lesser gods. Do not seek to keep your players from doing utterly insane and overpowered things--that's the entire reason the Exalted exist, to meld Creation to their will. The game is built for over-the-top heroic fantasy. Don't worry too much about keeping his power in check. When he starts doing world-shaking things, there are powers in the world who can (and will) go out of their way to keep him in line. If he's not doing something world-shaking, merely taking over a city-state or a region, he's actually well within what is expected of a young Solar--so present him with challenges, but don't even try to stop him from doing it.

Also bear in mind that, at the beginning of a story, a young Solar is much weaker than the average Terrestrial--"weaker exalt" is a term most Storytellers take out of context. If you give a Dragon-Blood and a Lawgiver the same (large) amount of experience, the Solar will have a small-but-noticeable advantage over the Terrestrial (often 23 dice to a roll instead of 21), somewhat better charms, and significantly better sorcery. However, the PC's aren't starting with a large amount of experience, while many of the Dragon-Bloods are! Most Storytellers forget that the players just exalted recently, while the Dragon-Blooded have been practicing skills and gathering arms for longer than the PC's have been alive--experienced Dynasts will have been fighting off supernatural threats like the Fair Folk, rogue gods, and the occasional Anathema for a century or two...gathering experience points the whole time. The PC's would do well to not attract the attention of such foes, "weaker exalt" or not. Encourage your players to use unsubtle methods only at their own peril.

Now, about social combat--don't fear it. Because of the mechanics themselves, most creatures more adept than he is--that's many of the gods, Exalted with higher Essence than his, and heroic mortals who specialized in social skills--will not have a reasonable chance of being bested by him in social combat. Indeed, he needs to watch out for such individuals, because they stand a good chance of getting the better of him!

Remember a few key quirks of the system: Motivations take days or weeks of concentrated effort to bypass, and even then they aren't changed, just bypassed until the target gets a point of willpower back. Under most circumstances, you simply cannot change a Motivation, period. Intimacies take several scenes, possibly even days, to change by a single point unless we're talking about an extra with low conviction, low willpower, and weak Intimacy ratings (ie, a born follower). Social combat can only cause an opponent to spend two points of temporary willpower in a scene, after which the target is too jaded to listen to the character and will blow off anything but an unnatural mental influence that happens to suit the right purpose. When facing an Exalt that is known to be able to use unnatural mental influences, most characters will either run away or begin physical combat rather than listen to anything he has to say. This is a major limiting factor--once a character is known as a social magnet of titanic proportions, most humans and unprotected essence-users will not give him a chance to speak to them. Most unnatural mental influence is either very limited in application or fails against any creature with a higher Essence rating than the Exalt. This means that a new character is often unable to affect anything with an Essence of 4 or higher, since it takes months to raise his own Essence that high. The combination of these factors tends to ensure that a young Solar isn't gaining allies more powerful than himself, and usually can only manage to amass a lot of extras.

Also, bear in mind that once opinions of entire city-states, regions, alliances, etc start to change...people start to come to investigate. Generally speaking, many of these investigators are accustomed to dealing with supernatural threats and are practiced in setting things back the way they were. The PC's are not the first Exalts to try to change the world, it's been going on for centuries uncounted, and for the last 800 years nobody has succeeded in any meaningful way...that means the countermeasures investigators can bring are anything but trivial. They will have multiple social powerhouses of their own, in addition to crack assassin squads, and even specially-equipped Wyld Hunt squads.
Another idea was to bring a Wyld Hunt near enough to put him on edge, and this might be fine, but I'd have a hard time explaining why there's a Wyld Hunt happening at the time in which Exalted 2E starts, especially so far from the Blessed Isle. The Wyld Hunt is mentioned in the core book primarily as an opponent to the hated Anathema, but actually that's a small part of their job. Their major reason for existing is, in reality, to defend Creation against the Wyld. Thus the name :smallsmile: Killing Anathema is more something they do along the way, because they're the best-suited to doing so, but they mostly fight the creatures of the Wyld. Any Wyld Hunt that a Storyteller wants in an area, but doesn't want to specifically be hunting the players, could very easily be explained as tracking down a Wyld raiding party, or patrolling a known Wyld zone, or even just journeying to the edge of creation to monitor the enemy. That's what Wyld Hunts were created for, and there are few areas where it is unreasonable for one to happen by...Celestials need to be on their toes.

Edit:
One of the things that bothers me about his companions is that one of them is a Sidereal :smalleek: . But I've got ways to deal with him already. I would highly recommend against a Sidereal PC at the beginning of your first campaign. They're tricky.

Hope that helps a bit.

smellie_hippie
2007-09-11, 05:33 PM
Edit: I would highly recommend against a Sidereal PC at the beginning of your first campaign. They're tricky.


Why's that? I'm already in the midst of a campaign, and will be trying to re-incorperate a Sidereal into the campaign. The player's been absent for a while, so I'll have to beef up the Sidereal to be on near-equal footing (without the 2E book). Basically I'm winging it at this point with him... any chance you'd be willing to engage in som PM to help with some steering?

p.s. I'm thrilled there's an Exalted thread alive on this Forum. I'd love to keep it going on any Exalted topic... just for more feedback and perspective. :smallbiggrin:

tainsouvra
2007-09-11, 06:31 PM
Why's that? A few reasons.

First, and this is a very large reason, The Manual of Exalted Power: Sidereals is not set to come out until September 26, so presumably it has not been used to design his character. The Exalted core book only has a short section on using them as antagonists. There is simply not enough information presented to play one as a protagonist with the level of integration you can use for a Solar, Terrestrial, or Lunar. If you have managed to grab an advance copy, and have thoroughly read it and used the information to design his character and the rest of your campaign, you can safely ignore this point.

Second, if one character is Sidereal and the rest are Solar, that creates a power imbalance. The Solar are generally more powerful and more free to use their power, once they come into it. The Sidereal generally begin play fully trained and outfitted, as a newly-exalted Sidereal is stolen away and trained extensively before he is permitted to return to Creation. If the players are expecting equality, they won't find it here--the Sidereal would begin vastly more powerful, but eventually become eclipsed by the Lawgivers. If power isn't a concern, you can skip this one.

Third, the inclusion of a Sidereal character leaves you with two options: either ignore any sense of continuity and let him function alone in Creation, or expect to see a large number of fairly powerful Sidereal friends/foes come after him and his comrades. Remember, the Sidereal are split into three factions, two of which are very powerful, entrenched in Creation's politics, and have extreme views on the re-emergence of the Solar. The presence of a Sidereal among a Solar group is a loud political statement, and certain to be heard and answered with enthusiasm. If consistency isn't a concern, you can skip this one too.

Fourth, and possibly quite irksome, the fact that Sidereal operate outside of fate in the sense that all other characters perceive it. This is an extremely powerful ability, easily plot-changing, and inherent to every Sidereal. For example, seconds after a Sidereal leaves the room, most creatures in Creation will automatically forget that it had ever been there. Additionally, the Sidereal can appear anywhere at any time without seeming out of place, as it is within their power to change their stars so as to weave themselves into destiny as they see fit. The combination of those two factors alone makes for a potentially very frustrating Solar game, but they are not the limit of the effect of a Sidereal's special Fate. Honestly I think the only way to ignore that point is to pretend the Sidereal is just a Solar with different stats, otherwise there are going to be two very different games running concurrently.
any chance you'd be willing to engage in som PM to help with some steering? I don't mind giving some perspective, but my experience with Exalted is not as expansive as with D&D.

I was pleasantly surprised to see an Exalted thread here too, by the way :smallsmile:

smellie_hippie
2007-09-11, 06:59 PM
How's about a game with 3 Solars and an Abyssal (with only the PDF 1E manual), and now I'm folding in another 2 Solars, a Lunar (with 2E PDF) and a Sidereal (1E PDF)?

Yeah... I'm that sick. :smallamused: But I follow the WhiteWolf Mantra of "If the rules don't work, bend them".

tainsouvra
2007-09-11, 07:44 PM
Essentially, you have a group of 8 Celestials encompassing wholly different and mutually-exclusive goals and roads to power, based on two entirely different editions of the game.

You're welcome to do so, and probably will have fun, but you're pretty much on your own as far as setting goes--anyone else's idea of how it should work is likely to be incompatible with your house-ruling. White Wolf even changed the history of the world between 1E and 2E, so you're going to do a heck of a lot of writing from scratch and glossing over inconsistencies to keep that group in play.

It'll probably be a fun game, but that group would self-destruct in a bloody fashion if there were any consistency to it :smallsmile:

Ravyn
2007-09-11, 07:50 PM
Make sure your Sidereal is running a resplendent destiny. It'll save you a lot of hassle and Arcane Fate rolls.

Sid among Solars can be done--heck, DB among Solars can be done. I've done both. It just takes a bit of a delicate hand, is all, and a willingness to step out of the spotlight (necessary for a Sidereal player anyway.)

smellie_hippie
2007-09-11, 08:20 PM
Yeah... I'm up to the challenge I think. A lot of the rules have been "in my head" for a while, and it might require character revamps when the actual sourcebooks come out.

All in all, it does make for some interesting inner-party conflicts. :smallamused: