ToB question regarding swordsage

[jdizzlean]

in reading the most awesome Rogue's Handbook, a pile of d6's: It states that you can take swordsage at lvl 9 as a 1 lvl dip and get the assaissin's stance, which is a lvl 3 stance. How is it possible to take a lvl 3 stance w/ a 1 lvl dip?

ToB always makes me a little fuzzy, appreciate the ToB for dummies help :)

[ExLibrisMortis]

The level of maneuver or stance you can take depends on your initiator level (IL); IL required = maneuver level * 2 - 1. Your IL is the sum of your ToB class levels and half your non-ToB class levels. So a rogue 8/swordsage 1 has an initiator level of 1 + 8/2 = 5, which is enough for a third-level maneuver or stance.

[jdizzlean]

awesome, thanks :)

[Blu]

The level of maneuver or stance you can take depends on your initiator level (IL); IL required = maneuver level * 2 - 1. Your IL is the sum of your ToB class levels and half your non-ToB class levels. So a rogue 8/swordsage 1 has an initiator level of 1 + 8/2 = 5, which is enough for a third-level maneuver or stance.

You actually need 2 levels, since the first Swordsage stance is always 1st level but the swordsage receives a new stance on level 2.


You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you...

[Axel_Neco]

Got swordsaged while typing this, so expanding upon ExLibrisMortis' answer.

So, ToB characters have what's called an initiator level. This is similar in concept to a caster level. If you're a lvl 4 swordsage, you're a level 4 initiator. Easy so far. If your first 4 levels are swordsage, you are correct in assuming you can't take the stance yet due to being too low of a level. When you multiclass, things start getting ugly. The example given by ExLibrisMortis is correct that you take half you non-initiator levels and add them to your initiator class. Easy math when you have only 2 classes.

So the new info for you: when you have multiple initiator levels, like say warblade and swordsage on top of rogue. Let's say a lvl warblade 4/rogue 8/swordsage 6 (unrealistic, but works for the math). Each initiating class has its own initiator level, just like how a mystic thurge has an arcane caster level and a divine caster level. The rule of apply half the amount for the non-initiating levels apply with a twist: you treat your other initiating class as a non-initiator for the math. So back to the example:

Warblade initiator level: 4 warblade + (8/2 from rogue) + (6/2 swordsage) = 11
Swordsage: 6 swordsage + (8/2 from rogue) + (4/2 from warblade) = 12

Clear as mud, right?


Edit: And Blu is right, all three classes force you to take a lvl 1 stance. You could take a feat for one after that though, Martial Stance.

[Crichton]

You actually need 2 levels, since the first Swordsage stance is always 1st level but the swordsage receives a new stance on level 2.

That part is definitely up for debate. The author of the handbook the OP is referencing has this to say about it:


I disagree with that interpretation. By RAW, you don't "start play" if you multiclass into it at 9th level, so you aren't forced to take a 1st level stance. By RAI, there's no reason why you should be forced to take a 1st level stance, and the phrase "start play" has been used by WotC books often enough that I'm inclined to believe they just didn't think of multiclassing when they wrote that line.

[Blu]

That part is definitely up for debate. The author of the handbook the OP is referencing has this to say about it:

Honestly it could be an oversight for not considering multiclassing or it could be a measure against dipping, i can find arguments for both ways.
But i believe that RAW-wise your first stance must be 1st level.

[Venger]

Honestly it could be an oversight for not considering multiclassing or it could be a measure against dipping, i can find arguments for both ways.
But i believe that RAW-wise your first stance must be 1st level.

Nope.

You can take a stance of any level you qualify for. In the example, it's 3rd, so you could pick up assassin's stance if you wanted to.

[jdizzlean]

Warblade initiator level: 4 warblade + (8/2 from rogue) + (6/2 swordsage) = 11
Swordsage: 6 swordsage + (8/2 from rogue) + (4/2 from warblade) = 12

.

so if you come out with say a total of something like a 6.5 after the math, would you round up or round down?

going back to the original: lets say you had 9 lvls in rogue, and 1 in Swordsage, then you'd have 4.5+1

[ExLibrisMortis]

so if you come out with say a total of something like a 6.5 after the math, would you round up or round down?

going back to the original: lets say you had 9 lvls in rogue, and 1 in Swordsage, then you'd have 4.5+1
Down. You always round down, unless you're told not to.

[Kayblis]

This Initiator Level property also works for maneuvers, so the ToB classes are very dip-friendly later on. After level 8, you can pick 3rd level maneuvers, and after 12 you can get 4th level ones.

Also, IIRC, the ToB Prestige Classes advance Initiator Level on all initiator classes, so a Warblade 4/Swordsage 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 5 has Warblade IL 9 and Swordsage IL 7.

[Rijan_Sai]

Edit: And Blu is right, all three classes force you to take a lvl 1 stance. You could take a feat for one after that though, Martial Stance.

And here is the part that is funny/annoying/drives me guano loco regarding this interpretation: A non-initiator class could take Martial Stance at level 12 with very limited "training" in the Sublime Way,* and could pick up any 1st or 3rd stance they would qualify for (with regards to maneuver and IL prereqs.)
Under ^that interpretation, however, an 8th level Warblade that multiclasses into Swordsage would still only be able to take a 1st level Shadow Hand stance, despite having 8 levels of proper training in the way of maneuvers and stances, even though he would be qualified for a 3rd level one...

So yeah... my interpretation is in agreement with ExLibrisMortis, PId6, and Venger: You can take the 3rd level stance multiclassing into an initiator class at level 9.

*Martial Stance has the prereq of "One Martial Maneuver," so you could take it with either a 1 level dip, or taking the feat Martial Study at a prior level. Minor clarification edit: For the purpose of this rant, we are assuming Martial Study, as the dip bypasses all arguments. The point still stands.