Flashpoint (2011) and the fragility of the superhero psyche [SPOILERS]

[SilverCacaobean]

So, I know, I know, "not topical at all" but I watched flashpoint, the 2011 animated movie. It was enjoyable so I decided to start a thread trashing it.



Why did Flash have Zoom's costume if it wasn't Zoom who changed the timeline?
Why was Zoom unaffected by the change? Everyone else except Flash, who did this, had no recollection of the other timeline. He not only had a recollection of the other timeline, he knew that Flash changed it before Flash himself did.
Damn it Batman! At the climax of the movie, you bat in out of nowhere and kill Flash's archenemy! This was Flash's story, you can't just do that! We get it, you're bad-ass, but if you do stuff like that, you look needy!
Is it me or is Hal Jordan terrible at flirting? He makes me wince every JL animated movie I've seen him in. (I've also seen the new frontier and the one where superman was raised by Italians so he was evil.)
Was alternate Barry gay? Did the movie imply the death of his mother somehow made him straight?
Where's Hawkgirl, John and Wally? Aren't they in any non DCAU animated movie? Also, there's a disturbing lack of Martian Manhunter in this movie.
Don't expect any deep comics knowledge from me, I only know any of these people because of the DCAU (which I love)


If I got it correctly, the whole time travel thing only changed a few things in the past, what with the time boom scientific mumbo jumbo. So, all characters depicted were the same people with slightly different pasts. This implies some pretty messed up stuff.

For one, batman doesn't look so much like a kid who lost his parents and dedicated his life to fighting crime anymore. It looks more like he's part of a family with mental issues that deals with personal tragedy by dressing in spandex and engaging in violence with or without purpose. His dad actually dressed the same as him. Dressing as a bat looks less like an inspiration of the moment now, more like he was genetically predisposed to deal with loss by dressing as a bat. He wants to scare superstitious criminals, my ass. He was doomed to dress as a bat as soon as he faced tragedy. It wasn't even because the trauma was when he was a kid if his father is any indication. I don't know what his dad told him in that letter, but unless it was "Son, I'm also Batman. Low-tech gun-slinging murderous Batman. You'd better go see a psychiatrist.", he's irresponsible. And holy ****, did I get that right? Did his mother become the Joker? Damn, the only thing stopping her from going on a killing spree was her son? Those are the parents Bruce lost? He's better off with Alfred.

But mostly I wanted to talk about WW and Aquaman and how incredibly petty they both were. I'm not even sure petty is the right word. More like violently deranged with Aquaman having a good dose of hypocrisy on top of that. Aquaman literally destroyed the world because of the "murder" of his wife! WW slaughtered people left and right because Aquaman didn't love her, if her "you never loved me" line she gave him when they were fighting and her hugging his corpse is any indication. Her triumphantly displaying Aquaman's wife's severed head and wearing her helmet are also pretty messed up. I understand self defense, but these were unnecessary. But even though I saw her killing a kid without a second thought, nothing can top Aquaman's completely unhinged insanity.

The important thing and the main reason I posted is that these two(Aquaman and WW) are supposed to be the same people who, in the other timeline, refuse to kill anyone at all. They saved the people who were trying to murder Flash just at the beginning of the film. But look how little it took for them to destroy the goddamned world! They just haven't snapped yet in the original timeline. If their fragile egos or emotions break at some point, everyone's screwed.

That's more or less all I wanted to post originally, but maybe there's a greater point to be made about superhero emotional stability. I've seen this kind of "hero having extreme and violent emotional reaction to tragedy" thing way too many times. I think. I mean, how about the justice lords? Flash dies, they become tyrants. The injustice video games? Lois dies, Superman loses it. I think I remember reading about Hal Jordan destroying the world at some point? Or, let's not only look at DC. How about Spiderman? He sold his marriage to the devil! Damn it, when I was a kid he was my favourite, the only superhero comics I've ever had were some Spiderman comics and what an ******* he turned out to be. Spiderman's marriage was about half the reason I liked him (though I don't know how MJ had been written in later issues. Maybe they'd made her unlikable before they got rid of the marriage, I don't know) and the other half evaporated when he proved himself to be an emotionally stunted selfish man-child. Even Darkwing Duck had an episode of an alternate timeline where he's a tyrant because he lost his daughter. :smalltongue:

I may be jumping to conclusions but I think I see a pattern there. Superheroes, even bad-ass normals, seem to be more unstable than other human beings. The superhero morality of never killing anyone rings hollow when they have to destroy/take over/rewrite the world every time a loved one dies (that is, a loved one that the writers don't want to get rid of).

Just wanted to say all this. Sorry about the big rant-y post. Got it out of my chest now. I don't know, this movie's been bothering me unreasonably much. :smalltongue:

Going to sleep now. Hope I didn't insult anyone's favourite superhero too much :smallwink:

[Sinewmire]

Going to sleep now. Hope I didn't insult anyone's favourite superhero too much :smallwink:

You leave Darkwing Duck alone! :smallfurious:

[SilverCacaobean]

You leave Darkwing Duck alone! :smallfurious:

Sorry, that was out of line :smallfrown:

[khadgar567]

well i dont know if its spoiler or not but the only think zoompoint did was resurrect one of the bi*chest characters in dc universe and harley and deadshot needed to fix flashes idiocity.

[Reddish Mage]

So, I know, I know, "not topical at all" but I watched flashpoint, the 2011 animated movie. It was enjoyable so I decided to start a thread trashing it.



Why did Flash have Zoom's costume if it wasn't Zoom who changed the timeline?
Why was Zoom unaffected by the change? Everyone else except Flash, who did this, had no recollection of the other timeline. He not only had a recollection of the other timeline, he knew that Flash changed it before Flash himself did.
Damn it Batman! At the climax of the movie, you bat in out of nowhere and kill Flash's archenemy! This was Flash's story, you can't just do that! We get it, you're bad-ass, but if you do stuff like that, you look needy!
Is it me or is Hal Jordan terrible at flirting? He makes me wince every JL animated movie I've seen him in. (I've also seen the new frontier and the one where superman was raised by Italians so he was evil.)
Was alternate Barry gay? Did the movie imply the death of his mother somehow made him straight?
Where's Hawkgirl, John and Wally? Aren't they in any non DCAU animated movie? Also, there's a disturbing lack of Martian Manhunter in this movie.
Don't expect any deep comics knowledge from me, I only know any of these people because of the DCAU (which I love)

Did you notice at the very beginning what Zoom was doing? He was egging Barry on. Its clear he planned the whole thing and was prepared when Flashpoint happened. Barry, on the other hand, was not



If I got it correctly, the whole time travel thing only changed a few things in the past, what with the time boom scientific mumbo jumbo. So, all characters depicted were the same people with slightly different pasts. This implies some pretty messed up stuff.

For one, batman doesn't look so much like a kid who lost his parents and dedicated his life to fighting crime anymore. It looks more like he's part of a family with mental issues that deals with personal tragedy by dressing in spandex and engaging in violence with or without purpose. His dad actually dressed the same as him....Did his mother become the Joker? Damn, the only thing stopping her from going on a killing spree was her son? Those are the parents Bruce lost? He's better off with Alfred.

I think you are making light of personal tragedy by suggesting the tragedy that spurred Batman to become Batman isn't serious enough to motivate his parent's simiarly.

Batman was personally motivated by that tragedy to become a crime fighter. Perhaps that makes him more unstable but it is a great and rare tragedy in a child's life to see their parent's murdered before their eyes. Is that really so crazy that his parents do the same (instead of...I dont know alcoholism or something), they must be unusually unsuited to be parents (or productive people)?


But mostly I wanted to talk about WW and Aquaman and how incredibly petty they both were...Aquaman literally destroyed the world because of the "murder" of his wife! WW slaughtered people left and right because Aquaman didn't love her...even though I saw her killing a kid without a second thought, nothing can top Aquaman's completely unhinged insanity.

The important thing and the main reason I posted is that these two(Aquaman and WW) are supposed to be the same people who, in the other timeline, refuse to kill anyone at all. They saved the people who were trying to murder Flash just at the beginning of the film. But look how little it took for them to destroy the goddamned world! They just haven't snapped yet in the original timeline.

I'm not sure everyone was turned villain by a single act of tragedy. Superman, who has his own personalty change, has an entirely different upbringing in Flashpoint.

I don't recall seeing how Wonder Woman and Aquaman developed into their alternative personalties. There is a suggestion that maybe a single tragedy motivated them to specific acts of evil, but they would have very different histories (apparently they had a relationship at some point), and may have developed into cruel types long before they met (or while they were together). Atalantians and Thymiscean civilizations are aloof and distrustful of the rest of the world even in the main storyline. Its not such a leap that they would produce or welcome a Tyrant with an us against the world attitude.


...maybe there's a greater point to be made about superhero emotional stability. I've seen this kind of "hero having extreme and violent emotional reaction to tragedy" thing way too many times...

I may be jumping to conclusions but I think I see a pattern there. Superheroes, even bad-ass normals, seem to be more unstable than other human beings. The superhero morality of never killing anyone rings hollow when they have to destroy/take over/rewrite the world every time a loved one dies (that is, a loved one that the writers don't want to get rid of).

I think the "never killing anyone" morality becomes problematic and even appear petty when you see what some of the supervillains do He's not the only supervillain to commit genocide. and it can be very inconsistently applied. However, I don't see its relevance to this story.

You may not like the cliche that superheroes turn supervillain if some tragedy happens but its a alternative-universe story staple. Superheroes are for the most part much more unstable than typical people. There lives are filled with drama that make the struggles of mythological heroes seem quaint. Moreover, takes a certain type of person to run towards explosions, take on impossible odds, while adhering to comic-code morality...and they put on an elaborate colorful costume while they are doing it.

Clearly there's a lot about superhero comics that are unrealistic, but there is an expected rhythm to these stories. Tragedy can motivate ordinary people to do great and terrible things, why can't it motivate supers?

[SilverCacaobean]

I think you are making light of personal tragedy by suggesting the tragedy that spurred Batman to become Batman isn't serious enough to motivate his parent's simiarly.

Batman was personally motivated by that tragedy to become a crime fighter. Perhaps that makes him more unstable but it is a great and rare tragedy in a child's life to see their parent's murdered before their eyes. Is that really so crazy that his parents do the same (instead of...I dont know alcoholism or something), they must be unusually unsuited to be parents (or productive people)?

Yes, they must. I'm not making light of anything. Real people have to go to court and see the perpetrator of the crime many times, even see the perpetrator get acquitted sometimes and they don't go crazy. Some, though it's, as far as I know, pretty uncommon, might try to kill the perpetrator. But learning acrobatics and murdering people you judge to be criminals (his dad) or for no particular reason(his mom)? Unstable. Weird too.


I'm not sure everyone was turned villain by a single act of tragedy. Superman, who has his own personalty change, has an entirely different upbringing in Flashpoint.

I don't recall seeing how Wonder Woman and Aquaman developed into their alternative personalties. There is a suggestion that maybe a single tragedy motivated them to specific acts of evil, but they would have very different histories (apparently they had a relationship at some point), and may have developed into cruel types long before they met (or while they were together). Atalantians and Thymiscean civilizations are aloof and distrustful of the rest of the world even in the main storyline. Its not such a leap that they would produce or welcome a Tyrant with an us against the world attitude.

It doesn't show much about either of them. The film implied that it showed us everything that went differently from the other timeline when flash's memories changed. Superman crash-landed elsewhere, Bruce Wayne died, Wonder Woman and Aquaman met under different circumstances, fell in love (at least for WW), Aquaman cheated on his wife etc. I don't see why I would assume more than that.


I think the "never killing anyone" morality becomes problematic and even appear petty when you see what some of the supervillains do He's not the only supervillain to commit genocide. and it can be very inconsistently applied. However, I don't see its relevance to this story.
Why the Hel did they give a giant purple bald space monster a common Greek name?
This story? I was talking generally at that point. The relevance to the OP is that these same people have stopped so many others from killing for revenge but it seems their own rules don't apply to them.

The "never killing anyone" came mostly, I think, from a combination of the Comics Code Authority and the need to have recurring villains, which is why it doesn't make sense. Though, I assume the original message (that got corrupted after the joker escaped for the millionth time killing thousands) was more like "apprehend them and hand them over to the law, don't be judge, jury and executioner", not "never kill under any circumstances while the law proves incapable of handling the situation again and again". The weird thing is, in my opinion, not their own morality but more like the question as presented. Like the life or death of the villains depends entirely on the heroes' actions. What are the rest of the people doing? I find it very hard to believe that any of these supervillains, whose schemes are often ridiculously destructive, don't cause society to reinstate the death penalty everywhere. If not immediately, after the aforementioned millionth escape.


You may not like the cliche that superheroes turn supervillain if some tragedy happens but its a alternative-universe story staple. Superheroes are for the most part much more unstable than typical people. There lives are filled with drama that make the struggles of mythological heroes seem quaint. Moreover, takes a certain type of person to run towards explosions, take on impossible odds, while adhering to comic-code morality...and they put on an elaborate colorful costume while they are doing it.

Clearly there's a lot about superhero comics that are unrealistic, but there is an expected rhythm to these stories.

I have no problem with the cliche or being unrealistic. Colourful worlds with costumed weirdos running around are fun! I'm just stating that these worlds full of unstable costumed superhuman weirdos are highly volatile for more reasons than just because they're more powerful than normal humans and they're unrealistic not only in their butchery of physics but also in the characters' personalities themselves.

Since you mentioned mythological heroes, I have noticed the similarities of superhero mythology with classical mythology, too. Superpowered or hyper-competent beings ruled by their passions. Inconsistent portrayals, possibly due to the fact that multiple people of multiple eras write the stories that the mythology consists of. Seems like humanity can't go long without mythology.


Tragedy can motivate ordinary people to do great and terrible things, why can't it motivate supers?

I didn't say it can't motivate them. I said their neurotic reactions to it are far from normal, almost alien.

[Cheesegear]

I didn't say it can't motivate them. I said their neurotic reactions to it are far from normal, almost alien.

Yes. Kyle Higgins, the author of most of the New 52 Nightwing, and a ****-ton of the Bat-Family series asked the questions right off the...Bat;
"What makes someone jump off of a five-storey roof, to fight armed assailants?"
How do you go from, 'regular dude', to 'jumping off buildings'? Some kind of adrenaline rush? Do people eventually become addicted to being heroes? Why do they even need that in their lives in the first place? Why don't they quit, the instant it gets 'too hard'?

Avengers: Age of Ultron said the same thing; You can hide if you want, that's cool. Most people would. But step outside that door, and you're a super-hero. And the person it was being said to, actually has super-powers already, and still wont fight.

Same thing with the latest incarnation of Power Rangers Breakfast Club X-Treme. How do you get teenagers, to get into giant robots to fight aliens? They can't be 'Teenagers with Attitude!', they have to be narcissistic, manic, risk-taking delinquents with nothing to lose, who would probably just fight people anyway. Giving them access to Suits, and giant robots, only enables them to fight stronger people.

[TeChameleon]

Eh. It's an unfortunate truism of superhero comics that in What If? stories, any changes mean that the entire universe goes straight down the crapper, often regardless of how little sense it might make.

To be honest, I kind of hated Flashpoint. It was grimdark and pointlessly depressing, and slaughtered characters by the boatload for no reason other than because it could. It also didn't make a lot of sense that none of the established DC Universe time-cop-types turned up to kick the Reverse Flash's teeth in before he buggered up the entire universe. The comics mentioned that Booster Gold (semi-secret time-traveller and the greatest hero you've never heard of) got sidetracked by a bunch of nonsense involving Flashpoint!Doomsday, but that doesn't explain why, say, the quasi-omnipotent Time Trapper didn't take exception to the Reverse Flash mucking about in his toybox.

Er, yeah. Pointless whinging asides... aside, in my opinion Flashpoint was a grimdark mess less because 'superheroes be crazy', and more because comic book writers and editors don't seem to know how to do 'different from the status quo' without turning every character ever into either murderers or murder-ees.

[Pex]

I know the movie is based on the comic, but even for the comic I think the whole story is stupid. I have no problem with the concept of Flash going back in time changes history, but I cannot accept that Flash saving his mother means Wonder Woman and Aquaman lead two sides of a Great War that kills half the planet. They have no relation to each other I cannot accept the ripples in time explanation. They don't suddenly join Team Evil. Bruce Wayne being killed instead of his father I could accept. Superman's pod goes off course changing his story but not to Supervillain status I could accept. Those are in the realm of verisimilitude. The war is preposterous.