Mid-level Swashbuckler/Battlemaster

[Speely]

Greetings, folks. I've enjoyed reading these forums for a while, but I am getting more heavily into 5e right now, and I am finally seeking advice about A Thing, because y'all have lots of well-thought-out perspectives. Long post, but:

TL;DR I want to know whether to go Swashbuckler 5/Battlemaster 6 or vice versa in a new group going to level 11 (ish) where I have to fill DPR and skill monkey roles. Feel free to just answer this question.

Our main group is doing a side mini-campaign that I am told should go till about level 11, but MIGHT extend beyond that. In our main campaign, I play a Lore Bard (11 atm) which is silly fun and just such a great subclass in a group where you are both the only main caster, face, and pseudo skill monkey (makes spell choices kinda hard, though.)

The new group includes a Vengeance Pally, an undecided-sub Warlock, a Spore Druid and me, a 100% decided Swashbuckler/Battlemaster. We are starting at level 3.

I am set on my concept, so I am not seeking advice about better combinations of classes/subclasses. My Tabaxi Swash/BM is locked for thematic AND mechnics reasons. My reasoning is as follows:

Thematics:
I love cat people and big cats (especially jaguars.) I also love the duelist archetype, and Swash/BM is the dueliest duelist to ever duel it. That is a fact. This is a no-brainer. Plus, I do a good Khajiit accent.

Mechanics:
The group is going to be skill-light. Starting as Rogue lets me at least start with decent skill proficiencies, and all the tools Rogues (esp Swashbucklers) get along the way are attractive to my concept (a sailor who uses her profession to take her to places where she can track down her obsessions while also feeding her need for attention, which can admittedly be a hindrance.) Battlemaster because I view her as scrappier than most and because it's so synergistic, feeding into a kind of tactical, mobility-based loop that is appealing to me. I like having tools and options as a scrapper.

That said, the group could use some consistent damage. The Paladin is tank-oriented but played by a long-time player so I know they will have a good DPR (and will be great for my SAs,) and the Warlock player is very new and more focused on RP/not at all interested in things like combat roles or group optimization. Which is 100% fine, but I kinda know our DM is a bit combat-oriented, and some decent (not top-tier, obv) DPR is going to help this group progress the story, so I am trying to do what I can to keep my concept clean but still get the things done so we don't wipe. I just have to have decent consistent damage. RP is king, but you can do more of it if you live long enough to do it with the same characters, imo.

So assuming level 11 tops and while dual wielding (with Dual Wielder and TWF for twin rapiers, which is a goal of mine) what is the best split in your opinion? Thematically, I am covered by any combo... I am just looking for mechanics advice as a probably-needed source of fair DPR while also doing all (some of) the rogue things.

My gut is to stop Battlemaster at 5 (extra attack) and take Swashbuckler to 6 for Expertise, especially since if the campaign goes on after that. I can get Evasion next level, which would be huge post-11. After that, I would absolutely take Swash to 9 then push Battlemaster to 11 for really good (in my eyes) synergy between the best parts of both classes.

The idea is to adhere to my concept but have 2 (3 via level 20) attacks + a Bonus Attack + SA, which I feel this kind of build facilitates. The BM's extra attacks and Maneuvers seem to work really well with the meaty parts of the SB playstyle. It also leaves me open for another Extra Attack in the future should the campaign continue.

By the way... Initial Maneuvers:
Riposte (duh)
Precision Attack (vs high AC)
Menacing Attack (pretty good +dmg and universally-useful debuff)

Thoughts on any and all? I am trying to get my folks through all the things.

My gut (again) says that an extra attack is better for DPR than 1 to 2 extra Sneak Attack d6s. However, Expertise is better for Exploration and Social stuff, which is a big part of why I am playing a rogue at all, so I am conflicted.

Happy to be part of the community now, and thanks for any and all advice! Muah.

[bid]

So assuming level 11 tops and while dual wielding (with Dual Wielder and TWF for twin rapiers, which is a goal of mine) what is the best split in your opinion? Thematically, I am covered by any combo... I am just looking for mechanics advice as a probably-needed source of fair DPR while also doing all (some of) the rogue things.
2 attacks is enough to reliably proc your SA, you don't need TWF at that point.
Usually, you'd get a shield to improve AC and keep your BA for CA (or shield bash if you took the feat).

Now, if you really want to go DW... the coolest offhand weapon is the whip. It gives you reach and still allows for SA. When you are landing 5d6 exta damage, missing 2 points is a drop in the bucket.

Fighter 5 or 6 is the same if you pick resilient(Wis). Keep fighter 6 in your back pocket until you need a feat. Fighter 11 offers better maneuvers/SD but has the same DPR overall. Since you plan on fighter 5 / rogue 9 before returning to fighter, you have all the time to pick a path.


Your blastlock friend has it easy: just pew pew with agonizing blast and you're golden.


Beyond that, you have the right gut feeling. Good breakpoint, best maneuvers or so.

[Speely]

2 attacks is enough to reliably proc your SA, you don't need TWF at that point.
Usually, you'd get a shield to improve AC and keep your BA for CA (or shield bash if you took the feat).

Now, if you really want to go DW... the coolest offhand weapon is the whip. It gives you reach and still allows for SA. When you are landing 5d6 exta damage, missing 2 points is a drop in the bucket.

Fighter 5 or 6 is the same if you pick resilient(Wis). Keep fighter 6 in your back pocket until you need a feat. Fighter 11 offers better maneuvers/SD but has the same DPR overall. Since you plan on fighter 5 / rogue 9 before returning to fighter, you have all the time to pick a path.


Your blastlock friend has it easy: just pew pew with agonizing blast and you're golden.


Beyond that, you have the right gut feeling. Good breakpoint, best maneuvers or so.

But TWF + DW gives you a better dmg avg than even an SA, if you are multiclassing. Free extra attack that has a chance to Sneak Attack. Right?

I 100% agree about the whip.

[thoroughlyS]

After doing some research and tooling with some concepts, I have some recommendations for your build.

Tabaxi Sailor
Swashbuckler 3/Battle Master 11/Swashbuckler +6

STR 10
DEX 16 (14 + 2)
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 14 (13 + 1)

If you want to begin the game dual wielding, Swashbuckler 3 is your best option, allowing you to make both attacks and still move out of reach. Starting as a Tabaxi Rogue will give you 8 total skills: Perception and Stealth from Tabaxi, Athletics and a freebie from Sailor, and four skills from the Rogue class skills. I recommend using the freebie from Sailor to pick up a skill not on the Rogue list: Animal Handling Arcana, History, Medicine, Nature, Religion, or Survival (try to cover skills your party doesn't have). From here, getting to Battle Master should be your main priority, followed by getting Extra Attacks. After you can reliably attempt Sneak Attack 4 times in one turn, you can start supplementing the damage even further.

You're probably going to be surprised, but I recommend taking the Defense Fighting Style at 4th level. In the long run, you'll appreciate the higher AC over the bonus damage, especially once you get Extra Attack. I also recommend spending your ASIs on increasing Dexterity instead of taking Dual Wielder. The only benefit Dual Wielder provides is allowing you to draw two weapons at once, which you can mitigate by carrying a weapon unsheathed. In comparison, +2 Dexterity gives a bonus to initiative, saving throws, and skills.


I 100% agree about the whip.
I actually disagree on this note. The main benefit of the whip is that you'll have reach, and therefore won't have to enter an enemy's reach to attack. But this benefit is superfluous given the Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork. On top of that, you'd have to take Dual Wielder (which I argue against taking) to even be able to use the Whip in your off-hand.

[bid]

But TWF + DW gives you a better dmg avg than even an SA, if you are multiclassing. Free extra attack that has a chance to Sneak Attack. Right?
Once per turn.
The only way to get a second SA out is to use your reaction. That's what makes riposte so nice on a rogue.
(in case that's what you were going for)

Ignoring crits which has little impact:
- R11 twf = (main=1d6+5) + (off=1d6) + (sa=6d6) ~ 5.5 + 2.3 + 18.4 = 26.2
- F5 R6 twf = (main=1d6+5)*2 + (off=1d6) + (sa=3d6) ~ 11 + 2.3 + 10 = 23.3
- F5 R6 shield = (main=1d8+5)*2 + (sa=3d6) ~ 12.3 + 9.2 = 21.5
Hit is .65, SA occurs on any hit (.88 or .96)
The twf DPR difference looks worse than it is because rogue 6 is half way to an extra SA d6.

Now, DW increases your weapon to 1d8 but reduces your hit (one less Dex ASI)
- R11 twf = (main=1d8+4) + (off=1d8) + (sa=6d6) ~ 5.7 + 2.7 + 17.6 = 26
- F5 R6 twf = (main=1d8+4)*2 + (off=1d8) + (sa=3d6) ~ 11.4 + 2.7 + 8.8 = 22.9
- F5 R6 shield = (main=1d8+4)*2 + (sa=3d6) ~ 16 + 10.2 = 26.2
If you prone your target with shield master and athletics expertise
Hit is .60 because of reduced Dex (rogue 11 has an extra ASI, but it's not used)

So... DW is actually a drop in DPR. You usually get Dex20 first if you only care about DPR.


With extra attack, your basic damage does the majority of the average damage until rogue 7-9. It's not that important a statistic, since you always do SA damage whenever you do any basic damage.
(I think that's what you were asking for validation)

[bid]

Athletics and a freebie from Sailor
Note that the backgrounds listed are samples, you can always pick whichever 2 skills and choice of tool/language along with a feature. The only thing that needs DM approval is if you want a feature different from those listed in the sample backgrounds.


You're probably going to be surprised, but I recommend taking the Defense Fighting Style at 4th level.
+1 on that. Defense is boring but hard to beat. Dueling is the other good one, but not for rogue.


I actually disagree on this note. The main benefit of the whip is that you'll have reach, and therefore won't have to enter an enemy's reach to attack. But this benefit is superfluous given the Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork. On top of that, you'd have to take Dual Wielder (which I argue against taking) to even be able to use the Whip in your off-hand.
Mostly true. If you need reach to attack a target hiding behind another, you'll be hard pressed to meet the SA requirements.
It's still a cool weapon if you manage to pull it off.

[thoroughlyS]

Ignoring crits which has little impact:
- R11 twf = (main=1d6+5) + (off=1d6) + (sa=6d6) ~ 5.5 + 2.3 + 18.4 = 26.2
- F5 R6 twf = (main=1d6+5)*2 + (off=1d6) + (sa=3d6) ~ 11 + 2.3 + 10 = 23.3
- F5 R6 shield = (main=1d8+5)*2 + (sa=3d6) ~ 12.3 + 9.2 = 21.5
Hit is .65, SA occurs on any hit (.88 or .96)
The twf DPR difference looks worse than it is because rogue 6 is half way to an extra SA d6.

Now, DW increases your weapon to 1d8 but reduces your hit (one less Dex ASI)
- R11 twf = (main=1d8+4) + (off=1d8) + (sa=6d6) ~ 5.7 + 2.7 + 17.6 = 26
- F5 R6 twf = (main=1d8+4)*2 + (off=1d8) + (sa=3d6) ~ 11.4 + 2.7 + 8.8 = 22.9
- F5 R6 shield = (main=1d8+4)*2 + (sa=3d6) ~ 16 + 10.2 = 26.2
If you prone your target with shield master and athletics expertise
Hit is .60 because of reduced Dex (rogue 11 has an extra ASI, but it's not used)

So... DW is actually a drop in DPR. You usually get Dex20 first if you only care about DPR.
I believe you're leaving out a few variables, and have overlooked a few details. Chiefly, Swashbuckler 11, Swashbuckler 5/Battle Master 6, and Swashbuckler 3/Battle Master 8 all have three ASIs and therefore can achieve 20 Dexterity and Dual Wielder if they want. Secondly, Fighters get a Fighting Style, which could be used for Two Weapon Fighting (although I recommend against it). Lastly, according to Kryx (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=2091322934), at level 11 the average monster AC is 16, so a character with 20 Dexterity will have a +9 attack bonus meaning they will hit on a 7 or higher (70% of the time).

Swashbuckler 11 (20 Dex, DW) = 0.7(1d8 + 5) + 0.7(1d8) + 0.91(6d6) ≈ 6.65 + 3.15 + 19.11 ≈ 28.91
Swashbuckler 11 (20 Dex) = 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6) + 0.91(6d6) ≈ 5.95 + 2.45 + 19.11 ≈ 27.51


Swash 6/BatMast 5 (20 Dex, TWF, EA) = 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.973(3d6) ≈ 5.95 + 5.95 + 5.95 + 10.2165 ≈ 28.0665
Swash 6/BatMast 5 (18 Dex, DW, TWF, EA) = 0.65(1d8 + 4) + 0.65(1d8 + 4) + 0.65(1d8 + 4) + 0.957125(3d6) ≈ 5.525 + 5.525 + 5.525 + 10.05 ≈ 26.625
Swash 6/BatMast 5 (20 Dex, EA) = 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6) + 0.973(3d6) ≈ 5.95 + 5.95 + 2.45 + 10.2165 ≈ 24.5665
Swash 6/BatMast 5 (18 Dex, DW, EA) = 0.65(1d8 + 4) + 0.65(1d8 + 4) + 0.65(1d8) + 0.957125(3d6) ≈ 5.525 + 5.525 + 2.925 + 10.05 ≈ 24.025


Swash 5/BatMast 6 (20 Dex, DW, TWF, EA) = 0.7(1d8 + 5) + 0.7(1d8 + 5) + 0.7(1d8 + 5) + 0.973(3d6) ≈ 6.65 + 6.65 + 6.65 + 10.2165 ≈ 30.1665
Swash 5/BatMast 6 (20 Dex, TWF, EA) = 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.973(3d6) ≈ 5.95 + 5.95 + 5.95 + 10.2165 ≈ 28.0665
Swash 5/BatMast 6 (20 Dex, DW, EA) = 0.7(1d8 + 5) + 0.7(1d8 + 5) + 0.7(1d8) + 0.973(3d6) ≈ 6.65 + 6.65 + 3.15 + 10.2165 ≈ 26.6665
Swash 5/BatMast 6 (20 Dex, EA) = 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6) + 0.973(3d6) ≈ 5.95 + 5.95 + 2.45 + 10.2165 ≈ 24.5665


Swash 3/BatMast 8 (20 Dex, DW, TWF, EA) = 0.7(1d8 + 5) + 0.7(1d8 + 5) + 0.7(1d8 + 5) + 0.973(2d6) ≈ 6.65 + 6.65 + 6.65 + 6.811 ≈ 26.761
Swash 3/BatMast 8 (20 Dex, TWF, EA) = 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.973(2d6) ≈ 5.95 + 5.95 + 5.95 + 6.811 ≈ 24.661
Swash 3/BatMast 8 (20 Dex, DW, EA) = 0.7(1d8 + 5) + 0.7(1d8 + 5) + 0.7(1d8) + 0.973(2d6) ≈ 6.65 + 6.65 + 3.15 + 6.811 ≈ 23.261
Swash 3/BatMast 8 (20 Dex, EA) = 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6 + 5) + 0.7(1d6) + 0.973(2d6) ≈ 5.95 + 5.95 + 2.45 + 6.811 ≈ 21.161

All told, your conclusion holds true for the Swashbuckler 6/Battle Master 5 (who has to choose between 20 Dexterity and Dual Wielder): Dual Wielder is a drop in expected DPR. This means that Dual Wielder should be taken last, if at all. This comparison also shows us that we can expect ~3.5 damage per turn from Two-Weapon Fighting in most cases, which is why I favor Defense. One element not accounted for is the maneuvers gained from the Battle Master. The Swashbuckler 3/Battle Master 8 has the lowest expected DPR (by ~1-3 damage), but has one additional superiority die available per short rest.






I 100% agree about the whip.
I actually disagree on this note. The main benefit of the whip is that you'll have reach, and therefore won't have to enter an enemy's reach to attack. But this benefit is superfluous given the Swashbuckler's Fancy Footwork. On top of that, you'd have to take Dual Wielder (which I argue against taking) to even be able to use the Whip in your off-hand.
Mostly true. If you need reach to attack a target hiding behind another, you'll be hard pressed to meet the SA requirements.
It's still a cool weapon if you manage to pull it off.
Because of Feline Agility, positioning is a non-issue for Tabaxi. This synergizes superbly with Rakish Audacity, because you will always have the movement necessary to meet the requirements. The climb speed even means single file hallways are not an issue, because you can skitter over the walls. That being said, the math above suggests that taking Dual Wielder can be worth it at higher levels, so a Whip is never truly out of the question.

[Speely]

Wow thanks for all the advice, y'all!

Soaking all these numbers and suggestions in. I 100% agree that 20 Dex is preferable to DW, and will drop DW from my plan if I have to choose between the two. I guess I should mention that we are rolling for scores and so that will inform a lot of my initial decisions. Max Dex is far more important to me than anything else, and so if I roll well I will be taking feats earlier. If not, I might not take them at all.

[Arial Black]

On a more general note re: Dual Wielder, it is true that whenever you have a choice between DW and +2 in your attack stat, +2 Str/Dex is the better choice, this means that you choose DW if you cannot increase your attack stat.

For this character (tabaxi), DW is viable once Dex is 20. For other characters, DW is viable once Str/Dex is 20.

But for variant humans DW is viable as their 1st level bonus feat, because you cannot choose +2 Str/Dex instead!

Variant humans for the win!

Of course, if your DM is giving out a free feat at 1st level for everybody....!

[djreynolds]

Wow thanks for all the advice, y'all!

Soaking all these numbers and suggestions in. I 100% agree that 20 Dex is preferable to DW, and will drop DW from my plan if I have to choose between the two. I guess I should mention that we are rolling for scores and so that will inform a lot of my initial decisions. Max Dex is far more important to me than anything else, and so if I roll well I will be taking feats earlier. If not, I might not take them at all.

Here's my build. 3 battlemaster and 8 rogue. Every turn, add 4d6 in damage from sneak attack

All day long, without a rest you add your sneak attack damage to one attack every turn. You only need the precision maneuver from battlemaster to ensure though attacks hits and you have 4 uses of this per short rest and you have your off-hand attack as well

That's it, you don't need an extra attack really

I would see if your DM allows the brute fighter archetype, this class works well for TWF, strength or dex based.

[bid]

Here's my build. 3 battlemaster and 8 rogue. Every turn, add 4d6 in damage from sneak attack
TWF vs extra attack is +2 (from rapier vs shortsword) and +4 (dueling vs TWF style). Of those, +3 are automatic when you manage to land SA.
You really don't gain anything with that extra 1d6 SA.

Having a free hand (or a shield) is a better deal.
Since he's starting at level 11, he won't have to suffer for ASI delayed by 2-3 levels.

[thoroughlyS]

Since he's starting at level 11, he won't have to suffer for ASI delayed by 2-3 levels.
They're starting at 3rd level; the campaign is expected to go to 11th.

[Speely]

Thanks for all the input. My plan (given the party) is to take Rogue/Swashbuckler to 5 straight off and then take Fighter/Battlemaster to 5 after. I will suffer a damage decrease during the increase in fighter/BM levels, but the maneuvers, fighting style (TWF 4 lyfe) and increased hit dice will prolly help a lot until I get to Extra Attack.

Just punching some simple numbers, it's apparent that 3 attacks that add my Dex to dmg (+3d6 SA) is superior to pretty much anything else. Assuming I have at least a +4 to hit/damage, that makes TWF very desirable, esp when I have Precision Attack.

The Dual Wielder feat is, imo, pretty great. Adds a +2 avg dmg per turn and increases AC by 1.

Edit: As a Tabaxi Swashbuckler, I have options that others don't for avoiding being attacked. Cat folks have SO much mobility, so I am less concerned with Bonus Actions than some other Rogues might be. It's nice to have options.

[Saggo]

The Dual Wielder feat is, imo, pretty great. Adds a +2 avg dmg per turn and increases AC by 1.

It's really not. 2 points in Dex does the same thing, plus +1 to Attack, Saves, and Skills. It is, at best, an ok feat if you have 20 Dex. Or for whatever reason have 2 magical Rapiers laying around, I guess. I say this with a TWF Swashbuckler/Battlemaster of my own.

[thoroughlyS]

My plan (given the party) is to take Rogue/Swashbuckler to 5 straight off and then take Fighter/Battlemaster to 5 after.
Once the switch has been made, I recommend sticking with Battle Master in case you make it to Extra Attack (2).

I will suffer a damage decrease during the increase in fighter/BM levels, but the maneuvers, fighting style (TWF 4 lyfe) and increased hit dice will prolly help a lot until I get to Extra Attack.

Just punching some simple numbers, it's apparent that 3 attacks that add my Dex to dmg (+3d6 SA) is superior to pretty much anything else. Assuming I have at least a +4 to hit/damage, that makes TWF very desirable, esp when I have Precision Attack.
It seems as though consistent damage output it your chief concern for this build. With this in mind, after crunching some numbers I concur that taking Swashbuckler to 5th level before making the switch to Battle Master is the best option. According to this article (http://anydice.com/articles/4d6-drop-lowest/), you'll have a 56% chance to roll a 16 for ability scores, giving you an 18 Dexterity after racial adjustments. If this is the case, and you take the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, you will be ahead of the curve relative to a straight Swashbuckler for most of the campaign. You will only fall behind at 8th and 9th levels. After that, you gain an edge with Extra Attack. If you are "unlucky" and start with a 16, you will also be behind at 7th level.


The Dual Wielder feat is, imo, pretty great. Adds a +2 avg dmg per turn and increases AC by 1.It's really not. 2 points in Dex does the same thing, plus +1 to Attack, Saves, and Skills. It is, at best, an ok feat if you have 20 Dex. Or for whatever reason have 2 magical Rapiers laying around, I guess. I say this with a TWF Swashbuckler/Battlemaster of my own.
It is most likely that this character will hit Dexterity 20 and still have ASIs to spare. Given the focus on consistent damage, Dual Wielder is a viable option afterwards (most likely at 9th level).

[djreynolds]

TWF vs extra attack is +2 (from rapier vs shortsword) and +4 (dueling vs TWF style). Of those, +3 are automatic when you manage to land SA.
You really don't gain anything with that extra 1d6 SA.

Having a free hand (or a shield) is a better deal.
Since he's starting at level 11, he won't have to suffer for ASI delayed by 2-3 levels.

I hear you, but IMO with the precision maneuver and maxed dexterity, he will not miss often. And he has uncanny dodge.

He can fighter rapier and shield, but you're right in terms of damage 8 levels of rogue gives you 4d6, as opposed to 6 rogue which 3d6.

I terms of leveling, I would start rogue 2 / fighter 3, I just really like riposte and sneak attack.

I might be inclined to go 6 fighter and 5 rogue for the 3rd feat, I see resilient wisdom or lucky as more powerful than 2 more skills with expertise just because of saves

I have a similar build, but a strength based swashbuckler battlemaster.

[Saggo]

It is most likely that this character will hit Dexterity 20 and still have ASIs to spare. Given the focus on consistent damage, Dual Wielder is a viable option afterwards (most likely at 9th level).

Viable, technically. Still not great. You get plenty of consistent damage from Sneak Attack, Battlemaster, and vanilla TWF style. Given that the focus is skill utility, character story/concept and then damage, I'd still recommend looking at other feats (like Lucky) or ASIs (like +2 to Charisma or even Con) before DW.

I wish it was great. TWF is my favorite style. It's just not. It's ok at best.

[thoroughlyS]

Viable, technically. Still not great. You get plenty of consistent damage from Sneak Attack, Battlemaster, and vanilla TWF style. Given that the focus is skill utility, character story/concept and then damage, I'd still recommend looking at other feats (like Lucky) or ASIs (like +2 to Charisma or even Con) before DW.
Speely seems to be focusing on damage first. I personally would probably take Martial Adept at 4th level for earlier access to maneuvers, and probably Magic Initiate at Battle Master 4th. But I've always been one to diversify.