Simplest houserule to make Tippyverse impossible?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

What's the simplest houserule that could be put in place to prevent the existence of a Tippyverse post-scarcity setup? I know that a GM could just say "oh, this specific case does or doesn't work", but I'm trying to avoid that. And most reasons why the Tippyverse doesn't exist seem to revolve around Gods or archdevils and whatnot, but in my settings I like to have them all dead/mostly silent.
I thought of banning magic traps, but that isn't enough. Or banning at-will magic items, but those are often nice and fun (ring of Invisibility for example).

I want to prevent the players creating a Tippyverse, and to explain why there isn't already a post-scarcity area somewhere in the setting.

So far I had "Disjunction (the level 9 spell) is even more powerful, and powerful people weaponise it heavily". But then the PCs could just try to kill those people when they reach high levels.
Or maybe "item crafting is rare, the feats are very hard to develop and require special training that's very hard to get, and all XP costs are increased" could work. But that would affect all their gear...

[Cosi]

You can just not set your game in the Tippyverse. In the real world, we spent thousands of years not having modern technological civilization. We have it now, but that isn't because the laws of physics spontaneously changed in the 1700s to allow industrialization. If your group doesn't want to play in a high-magic civilization, you can just not do that, just as you can not play in a civilization inspired by medieval japan or one ruled by Storm Giants.

[Chronikoce]

In general my opinion is that the tippyverse is unsustainable and really quite a stupid assumption to use for the status quo. It seems to basically be a cold war with constant unending vigilance required to maintain the status quo for all existing utilities.

As such it seems far more likely that the tippyverse could exist for a decade or two, then someone slips up, is assassinated, corruption takes hold, etc and boom, tippyverse over and we are back to 1,000 years of traditional d&d setting where everyone's life is rather terrible.

Look at the real world. Times of extreme prosperity tend to be unique points in history when compared to the total timeline of human existence.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

You can just not set your game in the Tippyverse. In the real world, we spent thousands of years not having modern technological civilization. We have it now, but that isn't because the laws of physics spontaneously changed in the 1700s to allow industrialization. If your group doesn't want to play in a high-magic civilization, you can just not do that, just as you can not play in a civilization inspired by medieval japan or one ruled by Storm Giants.

Okay, but then what's to stop a PC moving towards Tippyverse territory? Sure we could hash things out at the table, but that leads to disappointment.
And I love high-magic civilisations. A lot. I just don't want them to be outright post-scarcity ones.

In any case, your example isn't really comparable. Real-world industrialisation is crazily hard: it requires infrastructure, a certain type and degree of economic, political and social organisation... In D&D, spell traps can be created from level 3 onwards, and spell traps of "Create food and water" should be an obvious pick.
I love high magic settings, but I don't want a real Tippyverse.

Edit: To the last poster: sure, but I don't want history to be cycles leading up and down from Tippyverse.

[DeTess]

Okay, but then what's to stop a PC moving towards Tippyverse territory? Sure we could hash things out at the table, but that leads to disappointment.
And I love high-magic civilisations. A lot. I just don't want them to be outright post-scarcity ones.

In any case, your example isn't really comparable. Real-world industrialisation is crazily hard: it requires infrastructure, a certain type and degree of economic, political and social organisation... In D&D, spell traps can be created from level 3 onwards, and spell traps of "Create food and water" should be an obvious pick.




I think you've found your first house-rule: spell traps can't be reset without another casting of the relevant spell (or spell-traps can only use offensive spells, or whatever).

Honestly, I'd just rule that no spell can create a commodity that lasts for more than X days. This would remove the 'create food and water' line of spells, and makes it impossible to permanently 'cheat' items into existence using 'wall of X' and fabricate or whatever else your preferred trick is. At the same time you can still do a lot of things, such as creating a temporary bridge or the like.

[Cosi]

Okay, but then what's to stop a PC moving towards Tippyverse territory? Sure we could hash things out at the table, but that leads to disappointment.

If the PCs want to play in the Tippyverse, then the question you should be asking is "how to I facilitate playing in the Tippyverse". If the PCs don't want to play in the Tippyverse, this isn't a problem. If some but not all of the PCs want to play in the Tippyverse, then you have to hash things out at the table (though you should do so before the game starts).


In any case, your example isn't really comparable. Real-world industrialisation is crazily hard: it requires infrastructure, a certain type and degree of economic, political and social organisation... In D&D, spell traps can be created from level 3 onwards, and spell traps of "Create food and water" should be an obvious pick.

Building magical infrastructure takes time, casters, money and XP. It's not the same set of requirements as mundane industrialization, but it does exist.


Edit: To the last poster: sure, but I don't want history to be cycles leading up and down from Tippyverse.

I mean, isn't "there was lots of magic, but then everything blew up" part of the history of most settings already?

[ericgrau]

No houserules necessary. Only rarity of high level characters. And self resetting traps of beneficial spells are custom effects that should require DM approval. As for tactics using high level spells such as teleportation circles to transport armies: Yes, allow this. Encourage it. Interesting strategizing is good. The enemy should do the same. Frequently. Finding and dispelling or disabling such a circle should be part of strategy too. For every scry and dier, you have scry warding spells, anticipate teleport spell, and people who hide their presence and personal possessions from would-be scryers (+5 or +10 or auto pass save bonus).

And with rarity of high level characters, assassinating the person pulling tactics involving 9th level spells is a valid strategy as well. Heck, that could be the whole purpose of needing PCs when you already have an army.

[BowStreetRunner]

In D&D, spell traps can be created from level 3 onwards, and spell traps of "Create food and water" should be an obvious pick.
I've never quite understood this. Per the rules, "Spell traps have no reset element." "Short of completely rebuilding the trap, there’s no way to trigger it more than once." So building a trap for a one-off Create Food And Water spell seems far more wasteful than just casting the spell. I suppose because the rules go back and forth between terms like spell trap and magic trap, players try to argue they are not the same thing. Which may seem reasonable from their perspective, but doesn't help you avoid Tippyverse.

Regardless of whether someone in the Playground can point to where in the rules you can get around no reset element for spell traps, I would suggest that avoiding Tippyverse would include holding a hard line on this rule. Do NOT allow spell traps to have a reset element EVER. One spell trap, one casting of the spell. Apply this to all interpretations of the words 'spell trap' to affect all magic traps of every type conceivable. Make it clear that only mechanical traps can have a reset element.

Additionally, feel free to introduce a new feat: Craft Magic Device Trap (Prerequisite: Caster Level X and Y ranks in Craft (trapmaking). Craft Wondrous Item is modified to no longer include Magic Device Traps. Set Craft Magic Device Trap to whatever caster level and craft ranks you wish to introduce magical traps. This adds a bit more feat/skill tax (as they don't get traps and wondrous items together in one package) and pushed up the level you start to see these come online.

[Chronikoce]

Edit: To the last poster: sure, but I don't want history to be cycles leading up and down from Tippyverse.

Out of curiosity, why not? Real history follows cycles. Halting history at some fixed point you deem convenient seems far more arbitrary than a cycle of growth and decline dictated by human nature.

[InvisibleBison]

I've never quite understood this. Per the rules, "Spell traps have no reset element." "Short of completely rebuilding the trap, there’s no way to trigger it more than once." So building a trap for a one-off Create Food And Water spell seems far more wasteful than just casting the spell. I suppose because the rules go back and forth between terms like spell trap and magic trap, players try to argue they are not the same thing. Which may seem reasonable from their perspective, but doesn't help you avoid Tippyverse.

I think that "spell traps" refers to spells that produce trap effects, such as fire trap, while "magic device trap" refers to a magic item that acts as a trap and casts one or more spells when triggered. The former can't have a reset element, and the latter can.

[BowStreetRunner]

I think that "spell traps" refers to spells that produce trap effects, such as fire trap, while "magic device trap" refers to a magic item that acts as a trap and casts one or more spells when triggered. The former can't have a reset element, and the latter can.This is a broad interpretation perfectly acceptable to someone not concerned about Tippyverse taking over his game. In this case however, I would recommend using the far more narrow interpretation that completely restricts all magic item traps to the no-reset rule.

In the end, you can have a fun game with either interpretation of the rules. It's simply important to set everyone's expectations on what interpretation is being used at the beginning of the game so that conflicting interpretations don't ruin the game later on.

[The Insanity]

Could spell clocks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a) be of any use as a replacement for spell traps?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner
In this case however, I would recommend using the far more narrow interpretation that completely restricts all magic item traps to the no-reset rule.

Are self-resetting magic traps the linchpin on which all the Tippyverse depends? I’ve seen it mentioned many times, but never really understood what makes the whole setting tick.

And on a related note, is there any sort of Tippyverse SRD that details the setting? People argue about it from time to time, but I’ve never seen a baseline reference document that spells out exactly what it is, and what assumptions are necessary to sustain it.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

This is a broad interpretation perfectly acceptable to someone not concerned about Tippyverse taking over his game. In this case however, I would recommend using the far more narrow interpretation that completely restricts all magic item traps to the no-reset rule.

In the end, you can have a fun game with either interpretation of the rules. It's simply important to set everyone's expectations on what interpretation is being used at the beginning of the game so that conflicting interpretations don't ruin the game later on.
That last sentence is exactly why I am asking this question (as well as my own nitpicky worldbuilding). Thank you for phrasing it so well!

In any case, magic traps aren't the problem. If I ban them, people could just make at-will items that provide the same effect. How do I solve that problem?

[Lapak]

Simplest houserule? Magic in your setting is the Force a la Star Wars. By which I mean it's an energy field that is both generated by living things and sustains them.

I've found this house rule does a lot that's useful to the campaign, but most particularly solves your problem, because it explains where permanent magical objects are drawing their power from in a way that has consequences. Put too many in one place and use them constantly? You start over-drawing on the energy bank and literally sapping the life out of the area. Plants start to die, food stops nourishing the body, fertility rates drop, people start to waste away from an unexplained malaise, and eventually you find yourself in a ruin surrounded by lethal wastelands. Why do you think all those Great Magical Empires fell to ruin, and how those abandoned dungeons came to be?

(It's also handy for explaining why necromancy has such a bad rap; undead are double-drains on the life energy pool. They use magic from it to stay animate and give nothing back. An epic lich slinging spells is about as bad as a Permanent Gate shipping thousands of tons a day when it comes to bringing down the neighborhood.)

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Out of curiosity, why not? Real history follows cycles. Halting history at some fixed point you deem convenient seems far more arbitrary than a cycle of growth and decline dictated by human nature.
Medieval stasis?
Honestly I don't really want to halt history. I just want more than a 100-year cycle of "golden age/post-apocalyptic", which is what happens when every level 5 cleric can feed thousands and you're in a high magic setting where major wars involve druids (druids are WMDs in 3.5, if you hadn't noticed. They're not the only WMDs, mind! But they're very good at it right out of the box) and people level relatively fast.


No houserules necessary. Only rarity of high level characters. And self resetting traps of beneficial spells are custom effects that should require DM approval. As for tactics using high level spells such as teleportation circles to transport armies: Yes, allow this. Encourage it. Interesting strategizing is good. The enemy should do the same. Frequently. Finding and dispelling or disabling such a circle should be part of strategy too. For every scry and dier, you have scry warding spells, anticipate teleport spell, and people who hide their presence and personal possessions from would-be scryers (+5 or +10 or auto pass save bonus).

And with rarity of high level characters, assassinating the person pulling tactics involving 9th level spells is a valid strategy as well. Heck, that could be the whole purpose of needing PCs when you already have an army.
While I love that kind of game, I specifically want to avoid the sentence that I bolded in your quote. Once that issue is resolved by a general rule, then the rest of the game will be in a high magic setting where level 5 casters are commonplace and ever major city has an lv15 wizard, cleric and druid or two. These are just the ones willing to help in a war, mind!


Honestly, I'd just rule that no spell can create a commodity that lasts for more than X days. This would remove the 'create food and water' line of spells, and makes it impossible to permanently 'cheat' items into existence using 'wall of X' and fabricate or whatever else your preferred trick is. At the same time you can still do a lot of things, such as creating a temporary bridge or the like.
That is very clever, and I will keep it in mind. Thank you!
I do like the Create Food and Water line of spells though, but axing it outright is better than nothing I suppose.

To be clear: this is a high magic setting. Spellcaster over level 15 are rare and powerful, but level seven and lower spells are relatively easily availability.

[Troacctid]

The Tippyverse is an extrapolation of the impact of the Teleportation Circle spell on a setting. It will not develop without that spell. The obvious way to make it not happen is to not allow access to that spell.

The Tippyverse also assumes that there are no deities taking a direct hand in the affairs of the world beyond granting spells to clerics. If your setting includes deities, then it only takes one god with an interest in maintaining the status quo and the willingness to take a firm hand, and the conditions are no longer present for a Tippy economy to develop.

[DarkSoul]

As Troacctid just said, it's all about teleportation circle. The absolute simplest house rule would be to ban that one spell. If you don't do that, make two changes to that spell and you should be ok:


Don't ever let it be made permanent.
Make it function as Teleport, rather than Greater Teleport, in that you have to know where you're going and there's a chance of missing your target.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Troacctid
The Tippyverse is an extrapolation of the impact of the Teleportation Circle spell on a setting. It will not develop without that spell. The obvious way to make it not happen is to not allow access to that spell.

Obvious to you, perhaps, but I didn’t know that.

My other question still stands—is the Tippyverse described or detailed anywhere? Is there a campaign setting document, or something else that everyone is working from? And if not—then how are people getting their information about what the Tippyverse is?

[King of Nowhere]

Quite simple to do. The tippyverse relies on two assumptions: permanent teleportation circles rendering traditional trade routes obsolete, and self-resetting traps producing all commodities. Just remove those elements and the whole tipppyverse collapse.

Possible things to do regarding the teleportation circle
- teleportation circle does not exist
- teleportation circle exist but cannot be made permanent
- teleportation circle can be made permanent but it has a hard (and low) limit of how many times can be used in a day and how many wares it can carry. It could be used to trade gemstones or silks, but not iron or grain.

Possible things to do regarding the traps
- traps cannot be reset wihout expenditure of resources
- traps can only produce istantaneous or short term effect (as in, they explode and then they're gone, not in the "the spell takes place istantaneously and leaves behind something permanent" way)
- magic cannot produce anything permanently. Food made with magic will just fade away when it's in your body, so you better not eat it (this requires to change several other spells, but it also fixes the infamous wall of iron)
- too much magic will cause bad stuff to happen (this requuires no houserule, as the requirement is left vague and up to the DM)

Just pick your flavor.

[Troacctid]

Obvious to you, perhaps, but I didn’t know that.

My other question still stands—is the Tippyverse described or detailed anywhere? Is there a campaign setting document, or something else that everyone is working from? And if not—then how are people getting their information about what the Tippyverse is?
Here you go! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy

[Kelb_Panthera]

Obvious to you, perhaps, but I didn’t know that.

My other question still stands—is the Tippyverse described or detailed anywhere? Is there a campaign setting document, or something else that everyone is working from? And if not—then how are people getting their information about what the Tippyverse is?

Have a link.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy

[tiercel]

Okay, but then what's to stop a PC moving towards Tippyverse territory? Sure we could hash things out at the table, but that leads to disappointment.
And I love high-magic civilisations. A lot. I just don't want them to be outright post-scarcity ones.

What I’m seeing is that “a PC moving toward the Tippyverse” would seem to me to require some pretty specific assumptions:

1) The campaign world actually works by RAW. This is problematic for reasons beyond “the world is the Tippyverse,” stretching from infinite combos of various sorts all the way down to arguing that monks aren’t proficient with unarmed strikes. This is an issue for anything Tippyverse, but for PCs to move the world this way implies

2) Only the PCs are aware of how RAW works. If the world is RAW and the rules of the campaign world, and specifically magic, are generally known (or at least to those who can manage, say, relevant Spellcraft and/or Knowledge-Arcana checks), then why wouldn’t the world already be Tippyverse-ish, given that the campaign world almost certainly contains, and has contained throughout history, NPCs of higher level than the PCs — much less at least some of whom are less morally constrained than even PCs from exploiting the rules to remake the world, particularly for their own ultimate benefit.

This second point moves beyond “PCs are special” to something closer to “only PCs are awake” to the way the world works.

As other folks have already said, the question is really do you and your players really want to play in a Tippyverse-like setting, because a setting that your PCs are rules-exploiting for the first time is arguably more contrived than “just” a RAW campaign world. If your players aren’t looking to do so, you don’t have a real problem; if they are and you’re not comfortable running that world, it’s like telling them you don’t want to run a Ravenloft/Dragonlance/Spelljammer/whatever campaign.

And if you feel like the rules really need a tweak, then something like “no infinitely renewable magic effects with more than a personal/individual effect, and even those not freely transferrable between individuals on a given day” sounds like a reasonable rule even Tippyverse aside.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

2) Only the PCs are aware of how RAW works. If the world is RAW and the rules of the campaign world, and specifically magic, are generally known (or at least to those who can manage, say, relevant Spellcraft and/or Knowledge-Arcana checks), then why wouldn’t the world already be Tippyverse-ish, given that the campaign world almost certainly contains, and has contained throughout history, NPCs of higher level than the PCs — much less at least some of whom are less morally constrained than even PCs from exploiting the rules to remake the world, particularly for their own ultimate benefit.

This second point moves beyond “PCs are special” to something closer to “only PCs are awake” to the way the world works.


Yes, that is exactly the problem. We want a high-magic setting that works (mostly) by RAW (most people can't reach epic levels, Gods are mostly silent) where casters are numerous and "awake", and where early entry to PrCs and such is taught in magical colleges. Locate City bomb and such crazy stuff are "too improbable and niche to have been discovered", but somehow not discovering at-will items of Create Food and Water stretches credibility a lot.
My problem is "why doesn't Tippyverse already exist".

Well, limiting what can be created by magic will have to do, I suppose.
And I'll have things that were created by magic seem (to detect magic) imbued with gradually lowering amounts of magic until they vanish, to stop people from selling large amounts of iron from wall of iron for example.

[Palanan]

I appreciate the link(s), thanks.

:smallsmile:

[Kelb_Panthera]

What I’m seeing is that “a PC moving toward the Tippyverse” would seem to me to require some pretty specific assumptions:

1) The campaign world actually works by RAW. This is problematic for reasons beyond “the world is the Tippyverse,” stretching from infinite combos of various sorts all the way down to arguing that monks aren’t proficient with unarmed strikes. This is an issue for anything Tippyverse, but for PCs to move the world this way implies

There are a few problems with that presumption but fewer than some people think. RAW, highly-optimized play is pretty different from the presumptions of the game as-presented but it's also perfectly viable. It's just not to everyone's taste.


2) Only the PCs are aware of how RAW works. If the world is RAW and the rules of the campaign world, and specifically magic, are generally known (or at least to those who can manage, say, relevant Spellcraft and/or Knowledge-Arcana checks), then why wouldn’t the world already be Tippyverse-ish, given that the campaign world almost certainly contains, and has contained throughout history, NPCs of higher level than the PCs — much less at least some of whom are less morally constrained than even PCs from exploiting the rules to remake the world, particularly for their own ultimate benefit.

This second point moves beyond “PCs are special” to something closer to “only PCs are awake” to the way the world works.

As other folks have already said, the question is really do you and your players really want to play in a Tippyverse-like setting, because a setting that your PCs are rules-exploiting for the first time is arguably more contrived than “just” a RAW campaign world. If your players aren’t looking to do so, you don’t have a real problem; if they are and you’re not comfortable running that world, it’s like telling them you don’t want to run a Ravenloft/Dragonlance/Spelljammer/whatever campaign.

And if you feel like the rules really need a tweak, then something like “no infinitely renewable magic effects with more than a personal/individual effect, and even those not freely transferrable between individuals on a given day” sounds like a reasonable rule even Tippyverse aside.

This, on the other hand, I disagree with. Here's why from another thread:



If I'm allowed to interject, I always thought that solving the problem with a "gentlemen's agreement" is a bit silly. It works in practical terms, sure, but these NPCs that live in your fantasy world literally have to find these high powered loopholes and abuse them as best they can if they are to survive. These overpowered options exist, and someone is going to use them eventually, even if the PCs agree not to use them. It's too much verisimilitude for me. Why not just ban the spells/game material and be done with them?

The loopholes in the rules aren't at all intuitive from our position of relative omniscience. It's not at all implausible that no particular character or even cabal of characters within the game world has all the components of any given combo on their radar, much less at their disposal, before you even consider actually putting the pieces together.

Obvious, easy example; specialist wizard that bans conjuration. We, as players, know that this is a bad idea if your goal is ultimate powerTM but that's because we know all of the things of which conjuration is capable. We know that it can create healing effects, teleport creatures through space, and even punch holes in the fabric of reality to realms beyond the material.

Tim the neophyte wizard-in-training knows none of this with certainty and has no idea if -he- will be able to learn any of it if it -can- be done (remember that the automatic spells on level up are an abstraction of the normal learning process auto-succeeding for game purposes). As was pointed out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22987925&postcount=19), spellcasters capable of even mid-level spells are quite rare. Tim has likely never seen anyone or anything teleported unless he's lived a fairly eventful life. Maybe he has an ethical problem with snatching creatures from elsewhere to do his bidding (summon monster). Maybe, like Scotty from star trek, he finds the theoretical process of teleportation disturbing. From his perspective, forgoing conjuration as a school of magic could make perfect sense.

Between the above factors, the oft-glossed-over barriers to entry for PrCs, and the sheer amount of luck involved in reaching the highest levels of power; getting all the pieces of any combo together is actually incredibly unlikely. It's not unreasonable for a PC to be the first to do so at all and its replicability from within the game world can be staggeringly difficult.

TL;DR: the high-op loops are only necessary in a very competitive game environment and almost not at all within the world in which the game takes place.

[GrayDeath]

In general my opinion is that the tippyverse is unsustainable and really quite a stupid assumption to use for the status quo. It seems to basically be a cold war with constant unending vigilance required to maintain the status quo for all existing utilities.

As such it seems far more likely that the tippyverse could exist for a decade or two, then someone slips up, is assassinated, corruption takes hold, etc and boom, tippyverse over and we are back to 1,000 years of traditional d&d setting where everyone's life is rather terrible.

Look at the real world. Times of extreme prosperity tend to be unique points in history when compared to the total timeline of human existence.


Out of curiosity, why not? Real history follows cycles. Halting history at some fixed point you deem convenient seems far more arbitrary than a cycle of growth and decline dictated by human nature.

The 2 above are good ways on a meta-fluff houserule way.

Let me expand on how we did it for our long running high magic setting:

Once there WAS soemthing very much like the Tippyverse. It created the perfect magical Society, and produced immortals who became powerful enough to challenge the Gods (or some of them, as others actually helped this society develope, the gods of Magic, Sercrets, Chaos and Innovation in my setting).

The unavoidable hybris set in, the war happened, and both sides lost. 7 Gods died, the world lost all its Level 6+ Casters, and around half it spopulation.

Now, roughly 700 years later, both the gods and some survivors (who by now are Epic+ Casters) made sure that cannot happen again by VERY closely monitoring certain ... Key Spells. Once yous tart using them more than once, you receive a missive of one sort or other,w arning you to stop.
If you do not, a Level 30+ Caster visits you and makes sure you understand the situation, or die.

As long as you dont follow the prohibited direction, youa re free to do anything you like, even challenge demigods and such, as long as "That Era never comes back.



No another really good solution for this is to change the way magic works.

Make it work like in Dark Sun, or giver it another clearly limited ressource. That makes permanent Artefacts a permanent draw on the Source of Magic, and hence something that with time diminishes the power of Magic as a whole.
Single use applications of even Level 9 Spells are no problem, magic recovers if it has the time to do so, but (lets assume a world population of around 250 million) 50 Million Magic actions for each meal WILL deplete it quickly, as will Teleport Circles used a few hundred thousand times a day.







Quite simple to do. The tippyverse relies on two assumptions: permanent teleportation circles rendering traditional trade routes obsolete, and self-resetting traps producing all commodities. Just remove those elements and the whole tipppyverse collapse.

Possible things to do regarding the teleportation circle
- teleportation circle does not exist
- teleportation circle exist but cannot be made permanent
- teleportation circle can be made permanent but it has a hard (and low) limit of how many times can be used in a day and how many wares it can carry. It could be used to trade gemstones or silks, but not iron or grain.

Possible things to do regarding the traps
- traps cannot be reset wihout expenditure of resources
- traps can only produce istantaneous or short term effect (as in, they explode and then they're gone, not in the "the spell takes place istantaneously and leaves behind something permanent" way)
- magic cannot produce anything permanently. Food made with magic will just fade away when it's in your body, so you better not eat it (this requires to change several other spells, but it also fixes the infamous wall of iron)
- too much magic will cause bad stuff to happen (this requuires no houserule, as the requirement is left vague and up to the DM)

Just pick your flavor.


Or use the above clearly mechanically sound suggestions. All of them will work and NOT make your setting less High Magic, just much less "Commonplace Magic".

[BWR]

Easiest solution:
"I don't want X in my game, so let's not try to game the rules to break the setting, mmmkay?"
If the players don't take a hint, feel free to smack them down.

[Cosi]

Easiest solution:
"I don't want X in my game, so let's not try to game the rules to break the setting, mmmkay?"
If the players don't take a hint, feel free to smack them down.

Yes, if the other people engaged in a cooperative social activity with you have slightly different preferences, you should punish them. As DM, you alone deserve to have the kind of fun you want. Everyone else must have the kind of fun you want them to have. This is good DMing.

[death390]

i never understood banning create food/water it a 24 hour duration for 3 people AND it is bland and not delicious, you know what is worse than that? DC 14 survival check, gather/hunt actual food/water. its is DC 10 to move at HALF SPEED (IE about how fast a laden caravan moves) and get enough food/water (hunting or gathering DM choice technically) for 1 person +1 person for every 2 points above that. soooo your saying that if i hire a ranger to go with my caravan and just forage alongside us we get free commodities (pelts/ food/ ect) once a day? a lvl 2 ranger with an ok wisdom (lets say 12) and max ranks (due to tracking) 1+5=6. so if we just have him take 10 (it is allowed, no threats, only possible distraction is keeping track of caravan) that's a 16 total, enough to get a days ration (3 meals) for 4 people (10+2+2+2) assuming a small rabbit is enough for 1 meal per person that's up to 16 rabbits a day, 1 deer or large animal, or a couple pounds of fruit/veggies.

That's PER DAY mind you, and looking at arms and equipment guide that could be sold to PCs for 1-5gold per 20lb (might get that out of a single deer?dunno not a hunter), and fruits/veggies/nuts are so insane that depending on what is found pricing could be insane.
Nuts for example are MINIMUM 3silver a lb, but can go up to 20g/lb for cashews.
Fruit/veggies (mind you listed as dried): [16ounces to 1lb) least costly veggie 2s/lb (peas), most: 1g/oz [16g/lb](Carrots). for Fruit least costly 1g/lb (apples/raisins), Most: 5s/oz [80g/lb](cherries).
God help you if you find anything in the spices section or god forbid exotic.
Spices: min: 1c/oz, garlic/ horseradish/ salt, mind you won't probably find that foraging but god if you find a salt deposit in a cave? Max: 65g/oz (saffron), Avg: ~1 silver- a couple gold.
Exotic: MINIMUM: 25g/lb (chillies), Max: 100g/oz (lotus) another big one 75g/oz (vanilla). average is 10-40g/lb.

[Troacctid]

Yes, if the other people engaged in a cooperative social activity with you have slightly different preferences, you should punish them. As DM, you alone deserve to have the kind of fun you want. Everyone else must have the kind of fun you want them to have. This is good DMing.

How is establishing the parameters of the setting a punishment? I get if you like collaborative world building, but that's far from the default in D&D. Most of the time the DM decides what the world will be and that's 100% fine.

[ericgrau]

While I love that kind of game, I specifically want to avoid the sentence that I bolded in your quote. Once that issue is resolved by a general rule, then the rest of the game will be in a high magic setting where level 5 casters are commonplace and ever major city has an lv15 wizard, cleric and druid or two. These are just the ones willing to help in a war, mind!

...

To be clear: this is a high magic setting. Spellcaster over level 15 are rare and powerful, but level seven and lower spells are relatively easily availability.

To be clear I meant that the create food and water traps are custom rules and not the default.

If level 7 and lower spellcasters are commonplace I think you should have an intentional semi-tippyverse:

While common, I assume there are several mid level casters per city but they are still 1 in 1000 people. So they could only feed 5-10% of the population with create food and water and it's probably still cheaper to buy gruel than to buy the magic bland food. You could look at Eberron for inspiration.

If you want a high level caster in every major city then that is a bit much. It still takes 1-10 hours to transport a large army via teleportation circle. More than the Tippyverse but still not long.

I suspect you'll end up with something partway in between unless you reduce the casters. A strong caster in every capital or metropolis isn't so bad, especially if they're not all level 17+. Even if you remove permanent effects there are still benefits like the eradication of disease.

[Cosi]

How is establishing the parameters of the setting a punishment? I get if you like collaborative world building, but that's far from the default in D&D. Most of the time the DM decides what the world will be and that's 100% fine.

It's the part where he says "If the players don't take a hint, feel free to smack them down.". He has already presupposed that the players are not fine with a non-Tippyverse setting by suggesting that they have not taken the hint (also, saying "take a hint" is an implied level of passive-aggressiveness that is bad even if it works). If you don't want to run a Tippyverse game, and the players don't want to play a Tippyverse game, that is the end of the conversation. The problem only arises if your preferences aren't the same.

It is a game you are playing with other people. It should not be as controversial as it apparently is to suggest that the other people might deserve some influence in how the game is played. If you want to tell the story you want in the setting you want with no input from anyone else, you can write a book. If you are going to play a cooperative storytelling game, it is incumbent on you to engage in some cooperation with your co-authors.

[Kelb_Panthera]

i never understood banning create food/water it a 24 hour duration for 3 people AND it is bland and not delicious, you know what is worse than that? DC 14 survival check, gather/hunt actual food/water. its is DC 10 to move at HALF SPEED (IE about how fast a laden caravan moves) and get enough food/water (hunting or gathering DM choice technically) for 1 person +1 person for every 2 points above that. soooo your saying that if i hire a ranger to go with my caravan and just forage alongside us we get free commodities (pelts/ food/ ect) once a day? a lvl 2 ranger with an ok wisdom (lets say 12) and max ranks (due to tracking) 1+5=6. so if we just have him take 10 (it is allowed, no threats, only possible distraction is keeping track of caravan) that's a 16 total, enough to get a days ration (3 meals) for 4 people (10+2+2+2) assuming a small rabbit is enough for 1 meal per person that's up to 16 rabbits a day, 1 deer or large animal, or a couple pounds of fruit/veggies.

That's PER DAY mind you, and looking at arms and equipment guide that could be sold to PCs for 1-5gold per 20lb (might get that out of a single deer?dunno not a hunter), and fruits/veggies/nuts are so insane that depending on what is found pricing could be insane.
Nuts for example are MINIMUM 3silver a lb, but can go up to 20g/lb for cashews.
Fruit/veggies (mind you listed as dried): [16ounces to 1lb) least costly veggie 2s/lb (peas), most: 1g/oz [16g/lb](Carrots). for Fruit least costly 1g/lb (apples/raisins), Most: 5s/oz [80g/lb](cherries).
God help you if you find anything in the spices section or god forbid exotic.
Spices: min: 1c/oz, garlic/ horseradish/ salt, mind you won't probably find that foraging but god if you find a salt deposit in a cave? Max: 65g/oz (saffron), Avg: ~1 silver- a couple gold.
Exotic: MINIMUM: 25g/lb (chillies), Max: 100g/oz (lotus) another big one 75g/oz (vanilla). average is 10-40g/lb.

You're thinking on the scale of a single adventuring group or caravan. The banning of the CFaW traps comes from thinking on the scale of entire civilizations. The biggest limiter on population growth is food supply and the biggest limits to food supply are arable land under human(oid) control and the time it takes to produce.

The CFaW trap produces enough food to feed 432 people every day (asking the 10 min casting time is preserved) and, since we're talking tippyverse, it can be stored indefinitely in quintessence, the production of which can be automated in the same way. This takes a small room instead of the dozens of acres of land needed to make a similar amount of food in a mundane way. The on-going cost can be reduced to nothing by using invisible helpers (SBG 79) to combine the created food and quintessence and place it in long-term storage. Taste can be adjusted with a prestidigitation device either before storage or before use. Not much help for texture though.

A dozen such setups can feed an entire city (small city, as described in the DMG); indefinitely, at no ongoing cost, in less real estate than takes to build an inn, with no concern about the quality of the land it's on. This basically uncaps the size of cities completely.

[King of Nowhere]

i never understood banning create food/water it a 24 hour duration for 3 people
The problem is not with the spell by itself. The problem is with its abuses. If somebody can create water and food a few times per day, it's all fine and good, but if you can create items that cast the spell all the time with no drawback (like the murlind spoon) then it completely changes every economic assumption about the society. If you don't want to deal with those implications, or don't like where they point, you must ban every attempt to mass-produce the spell.

[martixy]

Seeing as how the tippyverse isn't a singular phenomenon, but a collection of consequences and implications, you won't fix anything with a single rule. You need a collection of houserules to address the constituents that define the tippyverse.

Other than that, the single biggest offender I see is the self-resetting traps.

[Fouredged Sword]

I had a DM float the idea of magical pollution. Why do wizards retreat to distant towers to study magic when there are perfectly good cities to work in?

Because magic is passivly corrosive to the barriers between dimensions. This is weak enough of an effect to not require mechanical effect on a player level. But on a societal level frequent large and or permenant magical effects increase the tendancy for the area to form natural gates to other plains.

So this is generally bad. Nobody wants a portal to the shadow plane opening up in the city sewers and unleashing shadows into the city without warning. Low level (read under 7th) is generally fine, even encouraged, but higher level magics are encouraged to be done... Elsewhere than a population center.

Conjuration spells have the greatest effect with necromancy a close second notable for almost always causing portals to BAD places rather than some random elemental plane. Illusion, abjuration, and divination spells are all but exempt from this effect (but not completely).

Different cultures have different "acceptable" baseline magic they allow in their cities rangeing from "none" to "just no tippyverse, we will just deal with problems that arise from anything less."

[Duke of Urrel]

You can't make the Tippyverse impossible, but you can make it unlikely enough that the spellcasters of the world fail to create it for centuries, if not forever. There are some good reasons for this failure, too.

1. Spellcasters are a small minority. Not everybody who has a score of 10 or higher in the requisite mental ability necessarily becomes a spellcaster. You also have to have a special talent or be specially chosen by the gods for this to happen. The population of the world needs food, goods, and services far in excess of what the tiny minority of spellcasters can provide. This is why it is possible to make a living without being a spellcaster.

2. Most spellcasters are NPCs who don't advance beyond the first level of experience, so that they never develop god-like super powers. Mostly, spellcasters are lazy and don't want to risk their lives adventuring or even drawing too much attention to themselves (because of Reason Three, which I'll discuss below). Even if all the magic you know how to do is the Ray of Frost spell, you can make a decent living preserving food by freezing it or by creating ice to fill ice boxes. Most spellcasters aren't very ambitious and therefore don't break the game.

3. Most importantly, spellcasters do not get along with other spellcasters. The biggest problem that a wizard has in acquiring unlimited wealth and power is the jealous opposition of other wizards. The biggest problem that a cleric has in acquiring unlimited wealth and power is other clerics of opposite alignment. And so on. The reason why the world is not ruled by spellcasters is that spellcasters are not organized as a group and do not co-operate with each other. On the contrary; some of the most ambitious spellcasters are bitter rivals or deadly enemies of other spellcasters, and they frequently kill each other off. This is perhaps the biggest reason why the world is not ruled by them.

[Elkad]

Stopping auto-resetting spell traps are one.

Requiring truenames for planar ally/binding, gate, etc is another. So you can't summon an endless string of efreeti without research costs, you just get the same one over and over and over, and he's going to get very angry if you keep bothering him. The ability to grant wishes to mortals means he can pay a pretty high price to someone else to get you to stop pestering him. Like "several thousand efreeti are hunting you" high price.

Having a functional economy (so flooding the market with Wall of Iron makes the price crash. And then the Iron Miners Guild puts a price on your head...)

[tiercel]

This, on the other hand, I disagree with. Here's why from another thread:

I suppose I assume that “relative omniscience” on the part of NPCs is a safe assumption in an optimized RAW setting for a few reasons:

1) Even mildly optimized casters are going to have “superhuman” mental stats. Yes, maybe we players in the real world have to do some work to break the system even from our point of view, but (at least from my understanding of the vague guidelines of “what stats mean”) I’m going to guess that even the smartest people in real life are unlikely to be considered to have much more than a 20 Int (or Wis) in D&D terms. Your “average” even semi-optimized wizard’s Int is arguably going to look less like Albert Einstein’s and more like unlikely-feats-of-cogitation Sherlock Holmes’s.

2) If we are talking about a RAW world, then anyone in that world with arbitary amounts of +yes skill modifiers to Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana, etc should know anything they want or need to know within their fields (beyond the simple idea that presumably people who can cast spells know what their own spells do even without a specific skill check, if nothing else through direct experience).

Maybe an epic sorcerer won’t necessarily “crack the code” (discounting the potential of lateral thinking), but a 30 Int wizard who can make epic skill checks or a 30 Wis cleric who has the actual gods on Line Three should pretty arguably and even easily have effective in-game system mastery.

And if such NPCs don’t have such in-world system mastery, PCs (their players notwithstanding) arguably shouldn’t either.

——

Re: magic items, there are some items that have to be “attuned” to a given user before functioning; perhaps all constant-use or infinite-use items should work more like that, and/or magic that actually creates non-temporary items should simply not be able to be made truly “at will” at all. (Magic thermodynamics? *steps over twitching catgirl*). Being able to spam wall of iron from daily spell slots might create economic issues over time (because D&D doesn’t have true economics, arguably), but infinite at-will iron walls? If mixing physics with D&D kills catgirls, I hate to think what poor kawaii population suffers every time someone tries to mix economics with D&D.

(And in that vein, I’d argue that all D&D games necessarily involve “gentleman’s agreements” at least to the extent that “no we aren’t going to worry about the physics of this” also extends to “no we aren’t going to worry about developing a fully-fleshed-out high-fantasy economic model for our killing-bad-guys-and-taking-their-stuff game,” among other reasons that doing so, insofar as it is even possible, likely winds up getting associated political allegory of a particular stripe all over everything.)

[BowStreetRunner]

Someone in our world took something as simple as the transistor and it's ability to flip-flop and turned that into something so incredibly powerful that it has completely overtaken our entire society. People with these same skills get can take a few of the interesting properties inherent to the ruleset of a role-playing game and turn it on its head.

One of the underlying assumptions of Tippyverse is that people with these skill exist in the game and include some of the PCs. If you create a world without these types of NPCs then the PCs have a huge advantage over the rest of the world. If you tell the players that their characters do not have these skills you will need to remain vigilant to keep them from gaming the system and you will need a bit of diplomacy of your own to keep them happy at the same time.

So just remember that any effort you make to Tippy-proof your game isn't going to ensure that no level of Tippyness appears along the way.

[gogogome]

I think video games like Dota and Dota 2 prove that Tippyverse is impossible.

As others mentioned, high level spellcasters are rare to the point even getting access to a 9th level npc wizard is a quest unto itself.

In Dota, there are like 100 heroes, and the "meta" consisted only of 20 of them while 80 of them were considered too weak for competitive play. But throughout its history, one genius player discovers a never used hero's potential and destroys the tournament scene with it until that hero is nerfed to hell. The skill cap of that game is so high that low level games look incredibly different from high level competitive games. The strategies and tactics developed via years and years of endless practice and competition is crazy.

So how is this related to d&d? Well, if Dota had a player base of 100 people instead of a million, there is no way all of these highly competitive tactics and strategies could be developed. There's just no way. People will think their suboptimal noob strategy is the best strategy possible and that's where development will end.

Tippyverse is created by someone who has complete system mastery of the entire game. He knew every spell, every monster, every rule, every RAW loophole, etc., and he got them by studying and playing the game over years, and there's just no way in hell this is achievable in the world of d&d where high level spellcasters are super rare and no one, absolutely no one, will have as much information as 1 source book. Even just reading Book of Exalted Deeds once is more information than a normal d&d character could ever hope to gain.

Your first death on your first d&d character in your first d&d game is the strongest spellcaster that will ever exist.

[willoftheway]

Your first death on your first d&d character in your first d&d game is the strongest spellcaster that will ever exist.

Except that we clearly have people in professions that would be comparably rare to spellcasters in D&D. We have continuously built upon the knowledge of the past in science, and there's lots to suggest that wizards operate their magic in a sort of pseudoscientific method. They stand on the shoulders of the wizards of the past and eventually, just as Neil DeGrasse Tyson has a far greater sum total knowledge of physics than Isaac Newton, you eventually get to a point where Nel Dorgrimm Titanza knows more about magic than Ishim Nashtal. Even in your DOTA example, the knowledge of these obscure OP champions come quickly from the sheer volume of people involved. If there were only a few hundred players at a time I'm sure they could discover them over the course of a couple hundred years.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I think video games like Dota and Dota 2 prove that Tippyverse is impossible.

As others mentioned, high level spellcasters are rare to the point even getting access to a 9th level npc wizard is a quest unto itself.

In Dota, there are like 100 heroes, and the "meta" consisted only of 20 of them while 80 of them were considered too weak for competitive play. But throughout its history, one genius player discovers a never used hero's potential and destroys the tournament scene with it until that hero is nerfed to hell. The skill cap of that game is so high that low level games look incredibly different from high level competitive games. The strategies and tactics developed via years and years of endless practice and competition is crazy.

So how is this related to d&d? Well, if Dota had a player base of 100 people instead of a million, there is no way all of these highly competitive tactics and strategies could be developed. There's just no way. People will think their suboptimal noob strategy is the best strategy possible and that's where development will end.

Tippyverse is created by someone who has complete system mastery of the entire game. He knew every spell, every monster, every rule, every RAW loophole, etc., and he got them by studying and playing the game over years, and there's just no way in hell this is achievable in the world of d&d where high level spellcasters are super rare and no one, absolutely no one, will have as much information as 1 source book. Even just reading Book of Exalted Deeds once is more information than a normal d&d character could ever hope to gain.

Your first death on your first d&d character in your first d&d game is the strongest spellcaster that will ever exist.

No, no. Because schools exist, teachers exist, "arcane traditions" exist, and getting good system knowledge is easy enough for an institution. Bardic Knowledge, the crazy Knowledge scores that wizards can get (8 ranks + 4 Int + 2 masterwork tool (library) + 2 skill focus + 2 bonus from aid another + bonuses from buffs like Divine Insight (+8 minimum) or Fox's Cunning, ect. At level 5 only, that's easily +26 or more!) ... All of these things will quickly help figure out at least semi-competitive choices for the next generation. And so then when the wizard takes an apprentice, the first combat spell he teaches him won't be magic missile: it will be Grease, and then Magic Weapon.

Tippyverse happens as soon as someone sees Teleportation Circle and says "wow, I could become super rich and live comfortably from this!". Considering the mental stats of most casters, that will probably be the first time they prepare the spell.
You may argue that no-one will ever grow powerful enough to cast it, or that no-one would think to research the spell. My answer? Dragons. These babies get that spell pretty much for free just by waiting for it. And Dragons are good at waiting (and hard to kill), and they're greedy and have huge mental stats: they totally would set a Teleportation Circle up and then out a small toll on it to benefit from economies of scale. And then, bam! Tippyverse created as resources and knowledge concentrates around a few cities and humans start getting the reagents to make infinite magic traps of Create Food and Water or at-will items of Create Food and Water.
Those 2 things are enough for a Tippyverse, and in D&D unless a God intervenes they will happen eventually.

Of course, wars and such may destroy the Tippyverse. But one day, a new golden age will come and it shall rise again! [Now though, it's time for the PCs to loot some ruins!]

[death390]

hmm for an extra 1000g you could even alter the spell trap to be continuous prestidigitation to make it taste good theoretically.

[noob]

Simplest house rule: if anything is magical or supernatural it simply does not do anything.

[mabriss lethe]

From Tippy's comments about his guide to the Tippyverse.


I'm mildly annoyed at all the people who think it's nothing more than a mind rape setting. It was never that and was always as attempt to make a setting that allowed all forms of play across a broad spectrum of levels and play styles while still maintaining suspension of disbelief, verisimilitude, and an inability for the PC's to drastically redefine the world with even a modicum of common sense.


There's not that big of a need to make a Tippyverse style world impossible to create. The reason? All of the elements of a standard low level non-tippyverse D&D game still exist in the Tippyverse. That's what the Wilds are for. The largest cities are almost a world unto themselves really suitable only for high level play. They're concentrations of power that really only trade among themselves and have very little direct interest in what goes on outside their walls. They become distant and inaccessible fairy tale cities while petty kingdoms more reminiscent of typical D&D sprout up to fill the voids in the Wilds.

It's only a "problem" to cities and kingdoms that verge on joining the "Golden Circle" Those places would become hotbeds of intrigue when the Big Boys take notice. Half of them will want to see it destroyed, to keep the club elite, to deny opponents a new ally/pawn. The other half will work to get them invited in, either to groom them for a particular alliance, or just to spite the other side. Of course, neither side can act too openly, since all of the high power factions, ally and enemy alike, will be watching, waiting to capitalize on any change to the status quo.

Out in the wilds, the Cities will work through agents behind the scene, utilizing local resources and talent as much as possible. It's all a balance of risk vs reward. A network of agents keeping things lively in the petty kingdoms and roving warbands of the Wilds is a small enough expenditure, while even brief troop movements to pummel an up and coming city is likely to be more trouble than its worth, making that city more vulnerable to its peers.

[Feantar]

It's the part where he says "If the players don't take a hint, feel free to smack them down.". He has already presupposed that the players are not fine with a non-Tippyverse setting by suggesting that they have not taken the hint (also, saying "take a hint" is an implied level of passive-aggressiveness that is bad even if it works). If you don't want to run a Tippyverse game, and the players don't want to play a Tippyverse game, that is the end of the conversation. The problem only arises if your preferences aren't the same.

It is a game you are playing with other people. It should not be as controversial as it apparently is to suggest that the other people might deserve some influence in how the game is played. If you want to tell the story you want in the setting you want with no input from anyone else, you can write a book. If you are going to play a cooperative storytelling game, it is incumbent on you to engage in some cooperation with your co-authors.

I don't think D&D is a cooperative storytelling game - at least from a system perspective. Something like FATE based games, or maybe Nobilis, is closer to that.


[...] As others mentioned, high level spellcasters are rare to the point even getting access to a 9th level npc wizard is a quest unto itself. [...]

That is extremely dependant on the setting. In Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, that's blatantly untrue. In Eberron it's spot on. So it really depends on your setting.


Also, teleportation circle is not the issue. You can do the same with Craft Portal or even a combination of shrink item and ring gates. On creating food, even if you stop resetting traps, an eternal wand of plant growth (it is a Wu Jen spell, and thus arcane) can feed millions (it increases yields by 30% each time it's cast - assuming half a year until harvest, 2 casting per day from the wand, you'd have an increase of 5400%). In general, to stop the tippyverse you should limit magic items to, at most, be charge based only, and that changes the game. The "gods dissallow it" explanation is common because gods are one of the few sources that can block this.

For what it's worth, I like the Dark Sun model.

[tiercel]

I don't think D&D is a cooperative storytelling game - at least from a system perspective. Something like FATE based games, or maybe Nobilis, is closer to that.
.
Well, in general there seems to me to be a decidedly cooperative aspect to most D&D:

1) Between players. Unless the group has agreed on a PvP campaign, the general assumption tends towards the “adventuring party” as a rag-tag band of heroes/misfits/etc. who bond together against the threats to the world/their interests, and more to the point, players working together to have their characters defeat the challenges set before them/that they seek out. Unexpected PvP or large differences in interest in system mastery between players can lead to un-fun experiences.

2) Between players as a group, and the DM. Sure, players take delight in defeating challenges, even and especially in unconventional ways, but generally there is some respect for the DM’s prep work in terms of not deliberately derailing the entire campaign. Similarly, DMs may enjoy springing a nasty challenging surprise upon (especially overconfident) characters, but the goal is to challenge, not to TPK; DMs caring about CR (ad how much it might be/is off by) is one aspect of finding balanced encounters of an interesting level of challenge.

Yes, of course there are also competitive aspects, but in general the DM isn’t trying to “defeat” the players, nor the players to defeat the DM per se (the BBEG or at least the Evil Plan, sure), nor (outside of agreed upon PvP games) players striving to defeat each other, per se. Rivalry? Character conflict? Drama? Sure. But many of the threads on this and similar boards that start to the effect of “my group has a real problem....” very often boil down to a problem in communication/cooperation between players/DM, and in that sense cooperation is inherent to the game.

[Oracle71]

Personally, I don't think their is a need to houserule much, if anything, to prevent a Tippyverse. All you really need is a DM who says "no," or "yes, but this is going to be the consequences, and the consequences won't as awesome as you think."

"Can I make a bunch of self resetting magical traps that cast create food and water anytime someone walks by?"
"Yes, but that will taste like wet cardboard, so no one will ever willingly eat that when they can hunt/fish/forage/farm stuff with actual flavor. And they certainly won't pay money for it."

"Can I build a bunch of permanent teleportation circles to set up an widespread trading network that bypasses all of those dangerous trade routes?
"Yes, but since you are now the head of the the fastest growing trading coster in the history of the mutiverse, you are spending so much time administering it that you no longer have time to go adventuring. Please, turn your character sheet in now. And since you are swiftly putting every other trader out of business, all of your rivals have pooled their money to hire thousands of mercenaries to attack your outposts, which are connected to your base by teleportation circles, so your character is now dead."

[Cosi]

"Can I build a bunch of permanent teleportation circles to set up an widespread trading network that bypasses all of those dangerous trade routes?
"Yes, but since you are now the head of the the fastest growing trading coster in the history of the mutiverse, you are spending so much time administering it that you no longer have time to go adventuring. Please, turn your character sheet in now. And since you are swiftly putting every other trader out of business, all of your rivals have pooled their money to hire thousands of mercenaries to attack your outposts, which are connected to your base by teleportation circles, so your character is now dead."

If you do this, you are a bad DM. When a player has an idea that they think is interesting, the appropriate response is never "rocks fall, you die", and if you think it is, you should not be running games.

[Oracle71]

If you do this, you are a bad DM. When a player has an idea that they think is interesting, the appropriate response is never "rocks fall, you die", and if you think it is, you should not be running games.

It was an overly extreme example, but while interesting ideas are okay, intentionally and obviously world breaking ideas are not. The point was that with extreme ideas or requests like those, a DM should either just say "no, we are not doing that," or "that won't work out like you expect it will."

I would never just say "rocks fall, you die," unless of course someone actually caused a massive avalanche on purpose, and a million or so tons of rocks fell on them. Actions have consequences, after all.

[Cosi]

It was an overly extreme example, but while interesting ideas are okay, intentionally and obviously world breaking ideas are not. The point was that with extreme ideas or requests like those, a DM should either just say "no, we are not doing that," or "that won't work out like you expect it will."

"That won't work out like you expect it will" is absolutely fine. There are all kinds of interesting adventures that start out with "that didn't work out how you expected it would". What is emphatically not okay, and is what people always suggest for "that won't work out like you expect it will", is something like "you stop getting to play your character, and then the person who used to be your character gets arbitrarily murdered." The only reason to do that is because you lack the personal maturity to have an honest discussion with your players about what you expect out of the game.

To be absolutely clear, I'm not suggesting that you have to play a Tippyverse game, or that you have to let your players boot up their post-scarcity schemes immediately. But what I am suggesting is that if you don't want to do that, you talk to the players about it rather than saying "rocks fall, everyone dies" when they cross a line you didn't tell them was there. Also that if your players want to do something, your first impulse should be "how do I make this work" rather than "how do I punish them for doing something I don't like".

[Oracle71]

Apologies. I sometimes make extreme exaggerations to illustrate point, which unfortunately sometimes obscures the actual point I trying to make.

The point was, the DM is the arbiter of what is possible in your game, and they need no houserules to justify saying something is simply to much to allow in the game. And yes, players and DMs need to talk about expectations of the setting and gaming styles and level of optimization, preferably before the characters story begins.

[gogogome]

Except that we clearly have people in professions that would be comparably rare to spellcasters in D&D. We have continuously built upon the knowledge of the past in science, and there's lots to suggest that wizards operate their magic in a sort of pseudoscientific method. They stand on the shoulders of the wizards of the past and eventually, just as Neil DeGrasse Tyson has a far greater sum total knowledge of physics than Isaac Newton, you eventually get to a point where Nel Dorgrimm Titanza knows more about magic than Ishim Nashtal. Even in your DOTA example, the knowledge of these obscure OP champions come quickly from the sheer volume of people involved. If there were only a few hundred players at a time I'm sure they could discover them over the course of a couple hundred years.


No, no. Because schools exist, teachers exist, "arcane traditions" exist, and getting good system knowledge is easy enough for an institution. Bardic Knowledge, the crazy Knowledge scores that wizards can get (8 ranks + 4 Int + 2 masterwork tool (library) + 2 skill focus + 2 bonus from aid another + bonuses from buffs like Divine Insight (+8 minimum) or Fox's Cunning, ect. At level 5 only, that's easily +26 or more!) ... All of these things will quickly help figure out at least semi-competitive choices for the next generation. And so then when the wizard takes an apprentice, the first combat spell he teaches him won't be magic missile: it will be Grease, and then Magic Weapon.

Look at Martial Arts. So many different schools claim their arts are superior, then comes UFC and shows that Jujitsu is the best martial arts and other arts like Muay Thai and Sumo are total crap. Thousands of years everyone thought their art is superior and only through modernized competition did the truth finally come out.

I don't think, at least in Greyhawk, there are enough spellcasters to overcome this. Every spellcaster will think their own style is superior, such as Blaster wizards, and only very few will know Conjuration and Transmutation are the best schools.


Tippyverse happens as soon as someone sees Teleportation Circle and says "wow, I could become super rich and live comfortably from this!". Considering the mental stats of most casters, that will probably be the first time they prepare the spell.
You may argue that no-one will ever grow powerful enough to cast it, or that no-one would think to research the spell. My answer? Dragons. These babies get that spell pretty much for free just by waiting for it. And Dragons are good at waiting (and hard to kill), and they're greedy and have huge mental stats: they totally would set a Teleportation Circle up and then out a small toll on it to benefit from economies of scale. And then, bam! Tippyverse created as resources and knowledge concentrates around a few cities and humans start getting the reagents to make infinite magic traps of Create Food and Water or at-will items of Create Food and Water.
Those 2 things are enough for a Tippyverse, and in D&D unless a God intervenes they will happen eventually.

I don't think Dragons would waste their spell known on a teleportation circle and instead get some direct combat spell. Super intelligent dragons might, but in d&d dragons don't act like they have super high intelligence score.

Actually the true problem we need to deal with are Efreetis who go "If you make 2 wishes for me I'll grant you 1 free wish with no strings or deception".

[Yahzi]

looking at arms and equipment guide
Do not do that. The A&E clearly states that you can hire a 10th level Knight for less than price of a pound of flour a day. The A&E Guide is absurd. Try Merchants of Prime (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/218456/Merchants-of-Prime)instead (it's free).

I stop the Tippyverse this way:

1) XP is tangible and harvested from dead peasants (i.e. XP comes from a real-world source instead of DM fiat).
2) The XP requirement doubles at every level (i.e. very few high-level casters).
3) Everything costs XP (i.e. Shadows need XP to spawn new Shadows).

[Yahzi]

On creating food, even if you stop resetting traps, an eternal wand of plant growth (it is a Wu Jen spell, and thus arcane) can feed millions (it increases yields by 30% each time it's cast

Enrichment
This effect targets plants within a range of one-half mile, raising their potential productivity over the course of the next year to one-third above normal.

That does not look stackable to me.

[Avigor]

While zapping permanent Teleportation Circles and self-resetting beneficial traps gets the biggest pillars of the Tippyverse, it doesn't get everything.

If I wanted to prevent players attempting to implement the Tippyverse (assuming the players were munchkin enough to actually attempt to do this, wouldn't listen to me saying I didn't want them to do it, and/or my world-building couldn't hand-wave the lack of these implementations of magic as saying the campaign world hadn't thought of it or had cultural reasons for not doing it such as old legends of a fallen Tippyverse civilization or something), I'd set one big rules change: No magic can be permanent. Traps, non-Artifact/Relic magic items, Genesis demiplanes, golems, spells that in RAW have a "permanent" or "instantaneous" duration, you name it all have limits before they run out of juice and fizzle out of existence. I'd suggest basing it on the power of the magic in question, in game terms adapting the XP cost (or if there is none, the spell's innate level) into a number of hours or days for continuously active magics, and charges for everything else (keep the charge to XP ratio as close as possible to wands and the like, albeit giving it a "bulk discount" for spending more XP at once could be balance-able). I'd do similar limitations on matter created or transformed by magic, albeit with an allowance that you won't need to worry about conjured food vanishing in a way that could cause a Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality Transfiguration Sickness style biochemical freakouts (food created by a create food and water or purified with a purify food and drink just waits till it leaves your body to vanish or revert, regardless of how it leaves or what happens to it, even if it means waiting for a specific atom to be exhaled) and simply reshaping something that already existed into a new form won't have a reversion time limit (leaving fabricate completely unaffected).

Yes, that is a bit extreme, but the Tippyverse, and munchkinery in general, can be described in similar terms.

[Crake]

In general my opinion is that the tippyverse is unsustainable and really quite a stupid assumption to use for the status quo. It seems to basically be a cold war with constant unending vigilance required to maintain the status quo for all existing utilities.

As such it seems far more likely that the tippyverse could exist for a decade or two, then someone slips up, is assassinated, corruption takes hold, etc and boom, tippyverse over and we are back to 1,000 years of traditional d&d setting where everyone's life is rather terrible.

Look at the real world. Times of extreme prosperity tend to be unique points in history when compared to the total timeline of human existence.

I agree, in my campaign setting there were probably about 2 points in time where one could call certain parts of the setting tippyverse-esque, one eventually collapsed in upon itself, and resulted in significant magical fallout, permanently marring about a third of a continent in basically nuclear winter, the other time was just after all the gods in my setting died, and there was no divine management to balance the mortals. The world then shortly after fell into dark ages.

[willoftheway]

Look at Martial Arts.

Or, as has been suggested, look at the actual reasonable comparison in real life, scientific study. Mages are scholars above all in general, they open schools, they take on apprentices, they pass on what they know, and they keep meticulous records.

Like every other academic group what they know is known by only a small portion of the population. And it would only make sense that like every other academic group, over time their knowledge shared across multiple generations would grow and evolve to encompass a more thorough understanding of the subject at hand. We didn't turn rocks and dead ancient plankton into the Lamborghini through modern competition. We did it through building on previous generations understanding and pushing it forward.

[BWR]

It's the part where he says "If the players don't take a hint, feel free to smack them down.". He has already presupposed that the players are not fine with a non-Tippyverse setting by suggesting that they have not taken the hint (also, saying "take a hint" is an implied level of passive-aggressiveness that is bad even if it works). If you don't want to run a Tippyverse game, and the players don't want to play a Tippyverse game, that is the end of the conversation. The problem only arises if your preferences aren't the same.

It is a game you are playing with other people. It should not be as controversial as it apparently is to suggest that the other people might deserve some influence in how the game is played. If you want to tell the story you want in the setting you want with no input from anyone else, you can write a book. If you are going to play a cooperative storytelling game, it is incumbent on you to engage in some cooperation with your co-authors.

If players don't want to go along with the GM's vision of the setting and the parties cannot agree on a point, it's the players that have to back down. This isn't railroading, it's determining how the setting and rules work, y'know, the stuff that is explicitly the GM's job. I am strong believer in respecting the GM's vision for a game. GMs should be open to critique and suggestions of course, but the final word lies with them. Players insisting on ignoring the GM just leads to a mess, and is very disrespectful. So if the OP's players refuse to respect the GM, I see no problem with the OP just shutting them down hard.

[unseenmage]

Nothing should be infinitely or arbitrarily repeatable.

Meaning magic items should break down and eventually stop functioning and neverending effects will need an end.

Just put entropy back into the world, make it the one thing magic cannot obviate and voila, a world analogous to ours.

Adding conservation of mass/energy would be a really good next step.

If basic physics function then magic stops solving all the problems forever.

I mean it's not a world I'd enjoy, I come to 3.x/PF for magical chicanery and shenanigans. But it'd sure put a damper on the Tippyverse wouldn't it?

[hamishspence]

Do not do that. The A&E clearly states that you can hire a 10th level Knight for less than price of a pound of flour a day. The A&E Guide is absurd.

No it doesn't.

1 pound of flour is 2 copper pieces.

Daily wage for a 1st level Warrior foot soldier who brings his own kit is 2 sp
Daily wage for a 4th level Warrior mounted soldier (light cavalry) is 4sp
Daily wage for a 10th level Warrior mounted soldier (heavy cavalry) is 20 sp.

If you provide their weapons, the price actually goes up in the case of mounted troopers.

The formula given is 2 sp per level, 4sp per level for Mounted Warriors - so 10th level Mounted Warriors would cost 40sp.

A mercenary character with levels in a PC class would cost even more to hire.
1 gp for 1st level, 2gp for each additional level.

So a 10th level PHBII Knight, would cost 19gp per day to hire.

Alternatively, if these characters count as Adventurers, the DMG2 gives Character Level Squared as the figure in gold pieces.

A 10th level Knight using this formula, would cost 100 gp per day to hire, and would expect a half share of total Loot.

If hired to fight something as powerful as, or more powerful than, them, they'd charge 10x as much (1000 gp per day), and expect a full share of Loot.

[Thirdtwin]

You know, if it's the infinite food and water trap thing that's annoying you, I mean, as far as I'm concerned the real problem is that you can stuff a benign spell in something called a "trap." You know, a thing that hurts or catches things by surprise? I don't know how to make the word box you can catch the RAW in, but something along the lines of "you can't put a harmless spell in a trap because it's then no longer a trap, fool" should be a nice houserule. Meanwhile banning Teleportation Circle as a spell should be enough to take out the apparent lynchpin of the thing.

[Cosi]

If players don't want to go along with the GM's vision of the setting and the parties cannot agree on a point, it's the players that have to back down. This isn't railroading, it's determining how the setting and rules work, y'know, the stuff that is explicitly the GM's job. I am strong believer in respecting the GM's vision for a game. GMs should be open to critique and suggestions of course, but the final word lies with them. Players insisting on ignoring the GM just leads to a mess, and is very disrespectful. So if the OP's players refuse to respect the GM, I see no problem with the OP just shutting them down hard.

How many times have you seen an arms race between the players and the DM lead to the players backing down? Because I have literally never seen that happen. The only way forward is to have an actual out-of-game conversation like the reasonable adults you (hopefully) are. Trying to strong arm the players is terrible for the game and you should never do it. Even if it "breaks your vision". If you care more about your vision than the other players, write a book.


Nothing should be infinitely or arbitrarily repeatable.

Meaning magic items should break down and eventually stop functioning and neverending effects will need an end.

That works, but the permanent nature of magic is a really cool example of magic being different from technology. The fact that you can build a magic plow that works forever is important for making civilizations that use magic feel different from civilizations that use reskinned technology.

Also, the players are expected to go into ancient dungeons and come out with functioning magic. And iconic genre stories like Lord of the Rings postulate magical items that last, at minimum, thousands of years.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

You know, if it's the infinite food and water trap thing that's annoying you, I mean, as far as I'm concerned the real problem is that you can stuff a benign spell in something called a "trap." You know, a thing that hurts or catches things by surprise? I don't know how to make the word box you can catch the RAW in, but something along the lines of "you can't put a harmless spell in a trap because it's then no longer a trap, fool" should be a nice houserule. Meanwhile banning Teleportation Circle as a spell should be enough to take out the apparent lynchpin of the thing.

While that is a good point, what's to stop the creation of at-will items of Create Food and Water instead of traps?

[gogogome]

Or, as has been suggested, look at the actual reasonable comparison in real life, scientific study. Mages are scholars above all in general, they open schools, they take on apprentices, they pass on what they know, and they keep meticulous records.

Like every other academic group what they know is known by only a small portion of the population. And it would only make sense that like every other academic group, over time their knowledge shared across multiple generations would grow and evolve to encompass a more thorough understanding of the subject at hand. We didn't turn rocks and dead ancient plankton into the Lamborghini through modern competition. We did it through building on previous generations understanding and pushing it forward.

So tippyverse is modern science (with the automated food generation traps similar to our automated factories), and d&d is medieval setting. It's gonna take at least a thousand years to reach the tippyverse, and that's assuming there's progress in the communication department. A seclusive school teaching students won't really bring about progress at a reasonable speed.

[unseenmage]

...

That works, but the permanent nature of magic is a really cool example of magic being different from technology. The fact that you can build a magic plow that works forever is important for making civilizations that use magic feel different from civilizations that use reskinned technology.

Also, the players are expected to go into ancient dungeons and come out with functioning magic. And iconic genre stories like Lord of the Rings postulate magical items that last, at minimum, thousands of years.
Like I said, low/no magic is not my preferred setting but that's the only way I see preventing post scarcity issues.

Alternatively, you could increase the number of magic item/spell eating monsters proportionately to the use of such.
That'd show those munchkiney wizards artificers who's boss.

[Feantar]

That does not look stackable to me.

Why not? It's instantaneous and adds 30% yield. It isn't a constant effect. Fireballs are stackable in the same manner.

[Elysiume]

Why not? It's instantaneous and adds 30% yield. It isn't a constant effect. Fireballs are stackable in the same manner.If you want to be strict about wording, multiple instances of "raising their potential productivity over the course of the next year to one-third above normal" still leaves it at 133%. It doesn't add 33% yield, it sets it to 133%.

[Feantar]

If you want to be strict about wording, multiple instances of "raising their potential productivity over the course of the next year to one-third above normal" still leaves it at 130%. It doesn't add 30% yield, it sets it to 130%.

I...uh...curses. Yup, you've got a point.

[Seharvepernfan]

Make it so spell traps have charges like wands, so they can be used up to 50 times, max, and to put more in after depletion you have to go back to crafting.