Help building my first (second) character! [Archive]

Dhoule

2018-04-21, 09:49 AM

Hi there, a newcomer here! I was looking for some advice to create a new character for our D&D 3.5 campaign in Faerun.

We've been playing for about a year and a half, one afternoon "every" week (some people aren't able to come always, so some sessions end suspended), and the team just got to level 6 last week. It's gonna be a looong way until we get to the last levels, and that if we ever get there.

I started at level 1 as a chaotic good half-orc barbarian female, with ability scores as:

STR 18
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 6

It wasn't decided by luck. I think we started with 8 in every AS, and had 22 points to spare between them. I put one more point in DEX at level 4.

The rest of the party is composed of a chaotic good halfling rogue, a chaotic good dwarf fighter, a neutral good human cleric, and a true neutral elf wizard. Until now, I've been dealing most of the damage to our enemies, and receiving most of it too, due to my low AC. But the thing is... Even though I like to deal damage, I'm not really comfortable with my character. You see, it's my first D&D campaign, and I'm quite shy, so it's hard for me to role play the big dumb barbarian, and I think I always end up failing in that. I am how I am, and I'd like my new character to be the most as myself.

We have access to PHBI, PHBII, Player's Guide to Faerun, Complete Warrior, Adventurer, Arcane and Divine. And we've been playing around the Moonsea.

Last week, I've been reading those books, as well as many threads in some forums, including of course this one. First of all, I'd prefer my character to be human, and male. Also, I'd like not to be dumb, nor illiterate. I don't really care about CHA, I think. With the current party, I think we would be good with another melee character (one fighter seems to be not enough). Oh, and also chaotic or at least neutral good. The DM doesn't want any lawful character.

I was thinking of another Barbarian, but also Fighter and Bear Warrior this time. But our DM don't allow to keep any item while transformed (no weapons or armors, but also no accesories), and I think that'd be pretty lackluster. Another option I was thinking about would be a Swashbuckler/Fighter/Dervish, though I'm still not convinced about how much damage would I be dealing. We need a lot of time to get to a new level, so I also think that building my character thinking only about how good he'll be at level 20 is a mistake. I want him to be useful now (and not only in combat, if possible), and to remain being so every new level.

So... What are your thoughts? Any advice? Any more information needed?

Thanks a lot! And sorry if this was too long ^^u.

BowStreetRunner

2018-04-21, 10:14 AM

The last time I played a Barbarian, I went with the Champion of Gwynharwyf (CoG) prestige class from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's a Chaotic Good barbarian that picks up some divine casting ability and is a bit less focused on one thing than the normal barbarian. You generally want to eventually get Wisdom of 14 (to cast all levels of spells) and Charisma of at least 12 (to gain a benefit from Divine Grace and for your Intimidate-based ability) in addition to the usual benefit of high physical stats for a melee combatant, so it appears a little Multiple Attribute Dependent (MAD). However, I found that starting with INT as your dump stat, taking 12 in everything else but STR (which you pump up with your remaining points) didn't hamper me too much. The ability score bumps at 8th and 12th were applied to WIS to get me access to my spells and the rest I put into STR. Granted, we had a 28 point build and I was fortunate in acquiring ability score boosting items, but the CoG list includes the '+4 to an ability' spells so you always have that.

I found it to be a far more well rounded class than straight barbarian. It also works quite well with a one-level dip in Crusader (Barbarian 5/Crusader 1/CoG 10).

Dhoule

2018-04-21, 10:46 AM

Zaq

2018-04-21, 10:50 AM

Are you allowed to use material on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), even if it isn't in the books you listed? What about material from WotC's website?

ExLibrisMortis

2018-04-21, 10:59 AM

Champion of Gwynharwyf is a great option, if you can get Book of Exalted Deeds approved.

While we're on the topic of books to get approved: Tome of Battle is your friend. Get yourself a nice crusader or warblade. No need to multiclass, just play.

Duskblade is a good single-class melee specialist, as well. Requires a decent Intelligence score.

Within your source restrictions, a smart melee type probably involves some kind of gish (self-buffing melee-specialized spellcaster), as you have Persistent Spell available (and also Incantatrix and Divine Metamagic). Incantatrix doesn't come online until ECL 8, but is stronger; DMM works right from level one, but is more limited.

Dhoule

2018-04-21, 11:19 AM

Are you allowed to use material on the SRD, even if it isn't in the books you listed? What about material from WotC's website?

I fear not. You see, we are from Spain, and many books weren't even published here. PHBI, PHBII, Player's Guide to Faerun, and Complete Warrior, Adventurer, Arcane and Divine are almost all of them. At least, these are the books our DM has, and he's not going to buy more for this. He's not very good at English either, so I'm sure he won't be willing to accept anything that isn't in his current books. Thus, we are limited to these.

noce

2018-04-21, 02:39 PM

Duskblade seems a good answer to your question.
It's from a book you have, it's beginner-friendly, it's good as a pure class 1-20, it fits your concept and your party.

BowStreetRunner

2018-04-21, 03:05 PM

I've read about the Champion of Gwynharwyf, and I liked it. But we don't have access to that book. Only to PHBI, PHBII, Player's Guide to Faerun, and Complete Warrior, Adventurer, Arcane and Divine. Also, with only 22 points to spare, I think we are much more limited to what we can afford, because of the feats and prestige classes with high requirements.
My apologies. I missed that part of your original post.

I'd second Duskblade. With the Armored Mage ability you can eventually pull off Mithral Full Plate Armor without any arcane spell failure, so decent AC is possible. Shocking Grasp at 1st gives you great damage dealing potential and Vampiric Touch at 3rd makes you a bit sturdier even when AC starts to be less effective. Spells like Dimension Hop and Dispelling Touch give you great versatility. Complete Warrior has a very nice feat called Arcane Strike that can allow you to go nova when needed. Take a Two Handed weapon with Power Attack and you can still cast - taking your off hand away to cast or putting it back on to swing is a free action.

There are lots of goodies for Duskblade in the books that you can't access which is a shame, but with the books you mentioned there is plenty of support for it and it makes a great all-around character build.

Dhoule

2018-04-21, 04:20 PM

A Duskblade, uh? Bu isn't the d8 a bit low for a front liner? =/

Do I need to choose one magic "school" (or however is called) and cast only the spells of that school, or can I learn and use spells from any of them? How much do a spell last if it doesn't say it? Which ones do you recommend to have at level 6?

What about the attributes? And the feats? Skill points?

Thanks!

ExLibrisMortis

2018-04-21, 05:13 PM

There are far more important things to a frontliner than hit die. Generally, class features make or break a class, and chassis (hit die, saves, base attack) only support or detract from the class features. A class that relies on its chassis to be strong is usually (~always) a weak class.

Duskblades cast from the duskblade spell list.

A stat spread like 16/x/14/14/y/z would be fine, where xyz can be low. Increases can go into Strength.

Dhoule

2018-04-21, 05:21 PM

A stat spread like 16/x/14/14/y/z would be fine, where xyz can be low. Increases can go into Strength.

The thing about a 16 Strength stat is that he won't get the "good" side of the x1.5 bonus from a two-handed weapon. Wouldn't it be better to put either 14 or 18?

Zombulian

2018-04-21, 05:48 PM

The extra +1 to hit but leaving enough points left for casting and health are much more useful than the extra 2 points of damage you'd get from going 18.

Goaty14

2018-04-21, 08:55 PM

The thing about a 16 Strength stat is that he won't get the "good" side of the x1.5 bonus from a two-handed weapon. Wouldn't it be better to put either 14 or 18?

The latter parts of getting a natural 18 with point buy tends to be costly, so you could start it out as 16, and buy +2 gauntlets of ogre STR to make it an 18. Increases go into STR anyways, so you'd have an 18 by level 8 anyways.

BowStreetRunner

2018-04-21, 10:05 PM

A Duskblade can start with an 11 intelligence and if she puts her ability score increases at levels 4, 8, 12, and 16 into intelligence she will always be able to cast her highest level spells. Of course, if somewhere along the way she comes across some other way to permanently increase her intelligence then she can direct her advances to something else, like strength.
Wisdom isn't particularly imporant to a Duskblade, unless she takes the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine to pick up the spells from a cleric domain, which I wouldn't attempt with a 22 pt buy. You can dump this ability.
Charisma is even less valuable, with no connection to any class skill or ability. This is a definite dump ability.
Dexterity isn't critical, since the Duskblade can wear decent armor. If she gets that Mithral Full Plate her max dex bonus will be +3, and she can easily pick up enhancements to Dex from spells, so it's not all that important. The biggest reason to put a few points in here is if you need to qualify for feats, which usually means a 13.
Constitution is certainly important, but if you want to have a high strength I'd just take a 12 here and look for an item with a Con bonus along the way.
This all said, with a 22 point buy you can get a starting Str 16, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 8 which is pretty decent. (If you take the Spellcasting Prodigy feat at 1st level then your Intelligence requirements are actually 2 less, although I still wouldn't start with less than a 10.)
Spellcraft and Concentration are worth keeping up, and you'll have a few more skill points to pick up a couple ranks here and there in utility skills like climb, ride, and swim.
The Spellcasting Prodigy feat from Player's Guide to Faerun can help keep your character less MAD by reducing your intelligence requirement by 2. Has to be taken at 1st level.
If you take Improved Toughness from Complete Warrior it's basically like having a +2 in constitution for hit points.
The Arcane Strike feat from Complete Warrior would be a great feat to pick up at 6th level.

noce

2018-04-22, 06:01 AM

Guys, it seems to me that they use point buy on a 1-1 change rate.
If that's the case, you can start human with stats something like 16 10 14 14 8 8, or dwarf with 16 10 16 14 8 6.

Duskblade hits for more and is sturdier than a barbarian, and much more versatile.
Look at his spell list, his number of spells per day, and the feat Arcane Strike (that also helps with using Power Attack).

Dhoule

2018-04-22, 11:09 AM

A Duskblade can start with an 11 intelligence and if she puts her ability score increases at levels 4, 8, 12, and 16 into intelligence she will always be able to cast her highest level spells. Of course, if somewhere along the way she comes across some other way to permanently increase her intelligence then she can direct her advances to something else, like strength.
Wisdom isn't particularly imporant to a Duskblade, unless she takes the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine to pick up the spells from a cleric domain, which I wouldn't attempt with a 22 pt buy. You can dump this ability.
Charisma is even less valuable, with no connection to any class skill or ability. This is a definite dump ability.
Dexterity isn't critical, since the Duskblade can wear decent armor. If she gets that Mithral Full Plate her max dex bonus will be +3, and she can easily pick up enhancements to Dex from spells, so it's not all that important. The biggest reason to put a few points in here is if you need to qualify for feats, which usually means a 13.
Constitution is certainly important, but if you want to have a high strength I'd just take a 12 here and look for an item with a Con bonus along the way.
This all said, with a 22 point buy you can get a starting Str 16, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 8 which is pretty decent. (If you take the Spellcasting Prodigy feat at 1st level then your Intelligence requirements are actually 2 less, although I still wouldn't start with less than a 10.)

Hm... I'm leaning more towards stats such as: 16 10 14 14 8 8. Starting with Int as 11 and keep increasing it is... I don't know. Seems kinda like a waste. If skill points would be retroactive, I wouldn't mind. But they're not.
The Mithral Full Plate Armor is indeed what I'd go for. But, at level 6, we're still far away from that. In fact, I think we're quite poor for our level... Our DM is a bit stingy ^^u, and we always end up spending most of our money in healing potions, anyway u_u

And what about familiars? There is already a Wizard in the party, though I think he hasn't used it yet (probably he hasn't even created it). Many threads suggest taking Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar feats as a Duskblade, and I'm interested, but I don't know about their uses and tricks. Which one would be good for a CG or NG alignement, if I took it?

noce

2018-04-22, 12:47 PM

and we always end up spending most of our money in healing potions, anyway u_u

Why on earth? Buy the cleric a wand and be done with it.

Dhoule

2018-04-22, 01:53 PM

Why on earth? Buy the cleric a wand and be done with it.

A wand? What? What? Tell me more! Oh, God, we've expended thousands of gp in healing potions ^^u

Zombulian

2018-04-22, 03:40 PM

A wand? What? What? Tell me more! Oh, God, we've expended thousands of gp in healing potions ^^u

Oh jeez.
Just read this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm).

Eldariel

2018-04-22, 04:02 PM

Hm... I'm leaning more towards stats such as: 16 10 14 14 8 8. Starting with Int as 11 and keep increasing it is... I don't know. Seems kinda like a waste. If skill points would be retroactive, I wouldn't mind. But they're not.
The Mithral Full Plate Armor is indeed what I'd go for. But, at level 6, we're still far away from that. In fact, I think we're quite poor for our level... Our DM is a bit stingy ^^u, and we always end up spending most of our money in healing potions, anyway u_u

And what about familiars? There is already a Wizard in the party, though I think he hasn't used it yet (probably he hasn't even created it). Many threads suggest taking Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar feats as a Duskblade, and I'm interested, but I don't know about their uses and tricks. Which one would be good for a CG or NG alignement, if I took it?

Well, Faerie Dragon Improved Familiar is pretty nice; it has 60' Telepathy, you can use an item of Psychic Reformation if DM doesn't let you pick its feats to give it Mindsight. It can handle all the interparty communication and also act as a radar and a superb scout with its own set of actions (and UMD would give it the ability to Wand people in the face). Not to mention it has your skill ranks and all that.

If you indeed have the straight-up buy, I'd go 18 Str. 18/10/12/14/8/8 seems perfectly doable; just use spells to improve your survivability as needed. It is indeed nice to max out your offensive stat though things like Arcane Strike [Complete Warrior] and Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] do a good job of enhancing them already. I do like 14 Con as much as the next guy though; either is fine, really.

Dhoule

2018-04-22, 04:41 PM

Oh jeez.
Just read this.

Hmm... Caster level (6) x Spell level (1?) x 750 gp. So... A newly crafted wand with 50 charges of Cure light wounds spell would be... 4500 gp?? Oh, and also 180xp... Where are we saving any money? =S

BowStreetRunner

2018-04-22, 04:45 PM

...Oh, God, we've expended thousands of gp in healing potions ^^u
Considering the limitations you have in terms of sources, some of the best methods of reducing your healing costs are unavailable (eternal wands, reserve feats). A wand of cure light wounds is still going to come out more economical than potions however, so there is an improvement over your current predicament. The Augment Healing feat is something a cleric might consider, at +2 hp per spell level that can really add up.

If you can get access to someone with Craft Wondrous Item however, you can create something truly indispensable. An at-will item of Cure Minor Wounds, even though it will only cure a single hit point per round, can be used between combats to restore everyone to full hp at the cost of a number of rounds equal to the total damage the party needs healed. And since it is a level 0 spell, the cost of this item is going to be incredibly economical. (I don't have the formula in front of me, but trust me - these things are by far the most economical method of healing outside of combat you are likely to find with the source books you have available. Everything you need is in the DMG.)

noce

2018-04-22, 04:54 PM

Hmm... Caster level (6) x Spell level (1?) x 750 gp. So... A newly crafted wand with 50 charges of Cure light wounds spell would be... 4500 gp?? Oh, and also 180xp... Where are we saving any money? =S

You're reading it wrong.
The cost is based on the minimum caster level required to cast that spell.
A wand of cure light wounds only costs 750gp.
Do not take into account XP, you're not the one that looses XP, that is on the merchant side.

Zombulian

2018-04-22, 04:55 PM

Dhoule

2018-04-22, 04:59 PM

Zaq

2018-04-22, 04:59 PM

Hmm... Caster level (6) x Spell level (1?) x 750 gp. So... A newly crafted wand with 50 charges of Cure light wounds spell would be... 4500 gp?? Oh, and also 180xp... Where are we saving any money? =S

Why bother with a wand with caster level 6? Caster level 1 will be almost as good and significantly cheaper, at least for Cure Light Wounds. Just 750 GP. Each charge is worth 1d8 + 1 HP, so average of 5.5 HP per charge. About 275 total points of healing from the whole wand. Not bad, right?

The gold standard for a healing wand is Lesser Vigor, which you can find in Complete Divine (pg. 186 in the English version, but it may be different in other languages). It's fine with caster level 1. Each charge is worth 11 HP, so you get a total of 550 points of healing out of a wand that costs 750 GP.

That's way, way better than potions, of course. 750 gp will buy you 15 potions of CLW (about 82.5 points of healing), 2 potions of Cure Moderate Wounds and 3 potions of Cure Light Wounds (about 40.5 points of healing), or one single potion of Cure Serious Wounds (about 18.5 points of healing). A little bit less efficient, don't you think?

You only spend XP on the wands if you're the one to create them, too. You can just buy them at full price and not spend any XP, or you can craft them (with the feat) for half price and spend a small amount of XP. For simple healing, I'd just buy them—a wand of Cure Light Wounds, even if you can't get a wand of Lesser Vigor, is about the simplest and most reasonably demanded wand in the game, so if you have any ability at all to buy wands in your campaign, you should be able to buy one for healing.

The only downside of a wand compared to a potion is that you have to either be able to cast the spell or be able to fake it with Use Magic Devise before you can use the wand, so pretty much it ends up being the job of the Cleric, Rogue, Druid, or Bard to use the wand (anyone can drink a potion). But as long as you've got at least one character in the party who can use a wand, it's easily the most efficient way to go.

Zombulian

2018-04-22, 06:45 PM

750gp flat? And we can find those in "any" shop? And we can do that with only the books we have access to? It seems strange to me for our DM to not have told us anything about them by now. It's not only stingy. That's just... mean.

Maybe give your DM the benefit of the doubt and consider they don't know about wands? Are they new?
Also did they answer your question about healing items with "well you can buy potions" or did you guys ask "Can we buy potions?" Because one is lying by omission but the other is just answering a question.
Since you have all the Completes, I'll echo Zaq that Lesser Vigor is the way to go. 11hp every charge instead of 1d8+1 from CLW is strictly better.

While on the topic, is there a reason for anyone to use potions? I love the idea of them but they always seemed like a waste of resources.

Eldariel

2018-04-23, 02:19 AM

Maybe give your DM the benefit of the doubt and consider they don't know about wands? Are they new?
Also did they answer your question about healing items with "well you can buy potions" or did you guys ask "Can we buy potions?" Because one is lying by omission but the other is just answering a question.
Since you have all the Completes, I'll echo Zaq that Lesser Vigor is the way to go. 11hp every charge instead of 1d8+1 from CLW is strictly better.

While on the topic, is there a reason for anyone to use potions? I love the idea of them but they always seemed like a waste of resources.

Potions are for characters who need the ability on self and can't use magic completion/trigger items. Invisibility, Enlarge Person, etc. are all very good potions and e.g. Red Hand of Doom mooks can use them to great effect. Hobgoblin Warriors are suddenly much more threatening when they're as big as a small house and sneaks are much better at sneaking. Fly Potions have beyond obvious utility and Mage Armor Potions are pretty good for making Monks slightly less gimped on low levels. Healing Potions, they're for emergencies when you get split from the group. It's good for mundanes to have few extra Potions of few key spells around for when you just need the effect and the caster's actions/time are better spent elsewhere. Of course, anyone with UMD or casting should use spell completion/triggers instead.

Kelb_Panthera

2018-04-23, 02:35 AM

750gp flat? And we can find those in "any" shop? And we can do that with only the books we have access to? It seems strange to me for our DM to not have told us anything about them by now. It's not only stingy. That's just... mean.

Wands are in the Dungeon Master's Guide. He probably didn't know or just never put it together. It's noteworthy that only a spellcaster with the spell contained in the wand can activate it with the exception of a character with ranks in use magic device. While the DMG isn't in your listed sources, I'll bet your DM is using it. It's rather important.

bean illus

2018-04-23, 01:10 PM

The bad news is I couldn't find complete champion in Spanish. The good news is I did find Tome of battle in Spanish. See if he'll let you use it.

Getting = pounce with your list of source books is difficult.

3: Dimension Hop spell. (Sorcerer/Wizard/Duskblade 2, Standard Action to teleport one target a short distance. You're losing an action, but they're gaining free movement. PHBII
5: Formation Expert feat (free move when an ally in a line drops. Hint: Have an ally Summon many weak creatures. Complete Warrior)
5: Mobile Spellcasting feat (free move when you cast a Standard Action spell if you make a Concentration check. Complete Adventurer p 111) STANDARD ACTION IS WHAT DB DO.

Immediate Magic (PH2 68): Give up your familiar; gain the ability to use a magical effect as an immediate action, ...
Conjuration: Short range teleport
First level wizard dip ACF of course

BowStreetRunner

2018-04-23, 01:41 PM

Potions are for characters who need the ability on self and can't use magic completion/trigger items. Invisibility, Enlarge Person, etc. are all very good potions and e.g. Red Hand of Doom mooks can use them to great effect. Hobgoblin Warriors are suddenly much more threatening when they're as big as a small house and sneaks are much better at sneaking. Fly Potions have beyond obvious utility and Mage Armor Potions are pretty good for making Monks slightly less gimped on low levels. Healing Potions, they're for emergencies when you get split from the group. It's good for mundanes to have few extra Potions of few key spells around for when you just need the effect and the caster's actions/time are better spent elsewhere. Of course, anyone with UMD or casting should use spell completion/triggers instead.
Further along this line, potions are generally hold-out items for when 1) you need healing in combat, and 2) the healer can't get to you in time. They should never be used as your primary source of healing as you are paying a premium for their in-combat utility. In combat you should be using renewable sources like spell slots and less expensive sources like wand charges. Out of combat you should be able to come up with something even less expensive, like the at-will wondrous item I mentioned in my previous post above (using the DMG rules for creating magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). Your DM should have these. (A 900gp at-will amulet of cure minor wounds could keep your party at full hit points between encounters, eliminating the need to waste potions, wand charges, or even spell slots outside of combat.)

Zaq

2018-04-23, 02:38 PM

While on the topic, is there a reason for anyone to use potions? I love the idea of them but they always seemed like a waste of resources.

Least shenanigans-y way I know of to make them useful is the Delay Potion feat, which does great things for your action economy with a little bit of foresight. They’re still crazy expensive, though, so it’s recommended to use the Quick Potion spell as your source. Basically turning a 2nd level slot and a slot of the actual spell level into a quickened spell is often a good trade.

Zombulian

2018-04-23, 03:10 PM

Least shenanigans-y way I know of to make them useful is the Delay Potion feat, which does great things for your action economy with a little bit of foresight. They’re still crazy expensive, though, so it’s recommended to use the Quick Potion spell as your source. Basically turning a 2nd level slot and a slot of the actual spell level into a quickened spell is often a good trade.

Wow that's actually really neat. I've never seen the Quick Potion spell and I use potions so infrequently that I've probably just skimmed over the Delay Potion feat.
Always looking for more tricks to add to Trickster Spellthief handbook I'm writing and this could probably fit in there in a unique way. Cast Quick Potion off of your own Spellthief list, borrow a 4th level spell from a full caster ally, and use Godsblood Spellthief to convert that spell into Divine Powe-CRAP potions only go up to 3rd level. Damn.
Still useful though. Something like Quickened True Strike for the cost of a 1st and 2nd level slot is still pretty nice.

ExLibrisMortis

2018-04-23, 03:46 PM

Wow that's actually really neat. I've never seen the Quick Potion spell and I use potions so infrequently that I've probably just skimmed over the Delay Potion feat.
Always looking for more tricks to add to Trickster Spellthief handbook I'm writing and this could probably fit in there in a unique way. Cast Quick Potion off of your own Spellthief list, borrow a 4th level spell from a full caster ally, and use Godsblood Spellthief to convert that spell into Divine Powe-CRAP potions only go up to 3rd level. Damn.
Still useful though. Something like Quickened True Strike for the cost of a 1st and 2nd level slot is still pretty nice.
There's at least one class that lets you craft higher-levelled potions: the Master Alchemist from Magic of Faerun. Takes some serious entry requirements (three feats, 10 ranks in two skills, ability to cast 4ths), but half of them are what you'd normally have already (Spellcraft, Brew Potion, Magical Artisan). Spellthieves qualify easily with Eldritch Corruption, though that has some serious drawbacks.

Zombulian

2018-04-23, 04:19 PM

There's at least one class that lets you craft higher-levelled potions: the Master Alchemist from Magic of Faerun. Takes some serious entry requirements (three feats, 10 ranks in two skills, ability to cast 4ths), but half of them are what you'd normally have already (Spellcraft, Brew Potion, Magical Artisan). Spellthieves qualify easily with Eldritch Corruption, though that has some serious drawbacks.

Why would you need Eldritch Corruption exactly?

ExLibrisMortis

2018-04-23, 05:13 PM

Why would you need Eldritch Corruption exactly?
You don't technically need it, but qualifying for a class that requires you to be able to cast 4th-level spells on a pure spellthief takes 14 levels, or 11 with just a +1 Heighten, or 8 with a +2 Heighten. Eldritch Corruption is the cheapest (feat-wise) way to get +2 Heighten without having the corresponding spell slots.

If you rule that spellthieves can "cast 4th-level spells" (for PrC qualification purposes) by stealing them, then sure, that works; I personally don't like that type of entry, because spellthieves can't reliably produce 4th-level spells on their own or with permanent magic items, making it something of a risk to form your build around.

Zombulian

2018-04-23, 06:03 PM

You don't technically need it, but qualifying for a class that requires you to be able to cast 4th-level spells on a pure spellthief takes 14 levels, or 11 with just a +1 Heighten, or 8 with a +2 Heighten. Eldritch Corruption is the cheapest (feat-wise) way to get +2 Heighten without having the corresponding spell slots.

If you rule that spellthieves can "cast 4th-level spells" (for PrC qualification purposes) by stealing them, then sure, that works; I personally don't like that type of entry, because spellthieves can't reliably produce 4th-level spells on their own or with permanent magic items, making it something of a risk to form your build around.

Ah I see. Well I was talking about Trickster Spellthief so 4th's come online at 10. 7 if you have Easy MM and Heighten I guess.

Zaq

2018-04-23, 10:18 PM

Wow that's actually really neat. I've never seen the Quick Potion spell and I use potions so infrequently that I've probably just skimmed over the Delay Potion feat.
Always looking for more tricks to add to Trickster Spellthief handbook I'm writing and this could probably fit in there in a unique way. Cast Quick Potion off of your own Spellthief list, borrow a 4th level spell from a full caster ally, and use Godsblood Spellthief to convert that spell into Divine Powe-CRAP potions only go up to 3rd level. Damn.
Still useful though. Something like Quickened True Strike for the cost of a 1st and 2nd level slot is still pretty nice.

I don't want to incessantly harp on my own stuff, but if we're discussing Quick Potion, Delay Potion, and Spellthieves in the same breath, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22893369&postcount=65) recent Iron Chef submission I entered seems relevant.

Zombulian

2018-04-23, 10:36 PM

I don't want to incessantly harp on my own stuff, but if we're discussing Quick Potion, Delay Potion, and Spellthieves in the same breath, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22893369&postcount=65) recent Iron Chef submission I entered seems relevant.

Very nice. Somehow I've never seen Sudden Extend either. Thanks for sharing, Zaq.

Eldariel

2018-04-23, 10:40 PM

Further along this line, potions are generally hold-out items for when 1) you need healing in combat, and 2) the healer can't get to you in time. They should never be used as your primary source of healing as you are paying a premium for their in-combat utility. In combat you should be using renewable sources like spell slots and less expensive sources like wand charges. Out of combat you should be able to come up with something even less expensive, like the at-will wondrous item I mentioned in my previous post above (using the DMG rules for creating magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm). Your DM should have these. (A 900gp at-will amulet of cure minor wounds could keep your party at full hit points between encounters, eliminating the need to waste potions, wand charges, or even spell slots outside of combat.)

It's worth noting that magic item guidelines are just guidelines and any custom items are fully at DM's purview; Healing Belt [MIC] is good enough but at-will healing items feel a bit too easy and thus I wouldn't expect it to fly at most tables. Even Wands consume resources, albeit at a minor rate; at-will items just plain don't (though you can always just persist Mass Lesser Vigor but that implies you're early persisting spells which is a whole different ballgame of course - one where many things don't really matter).

Kelb_Panthera

2018-04-23, 10:53 PM

It's worth noting that magic item guidelines are just guidelines and any custom items are fully at DM's purview; Healing Belt [MIC] is good enough but at-will healing items feel a bit too easy and thus I wouldn't expect it to fly at most tables. Even Wands consume resources, albeit at a minor rate; at-will items just plain don't (though you can always just persist Mass Lesser Vigor but that implies you're early persisting spells which is a whole different ballgame of course - one where many things don't really matter).

The cost per hp on a wand of lesser vigor is so low that just zeroing it out with the suggested custom item isn't a significant change, really.

noce

2018-04-24, 09:08 AM

Please guys stay in topic. The guy is fairy new to the game, so those disquisitions are not really helping.

To the OP, I'm not so sure your DM is just mean, maybe he didn't know about wand existence. Is he new to the game, too?
Maybe he just has a gameplayer background and is used to potions in videogames but not to wands.

I suggest you to speak with him, ask him to actively try to help the party about things of the game you do not know.
For example, looting a wand from an enemy corpse would have opened your eyes about the possibility of buying those things.

BowStreetRunner

2018-04-24, 09:33 AM

Please guys stay in topic.
Thanks for the reminder. I think the OP should have plenty of insights to discuss with the DM and party about more economical ways to handle healing in and out of combat now.

Hm... I'm leaning more towards stats such as: 16 10 14 14 8 8. Starting with Int as 11 and keep increasing it is... I don't know. Seems kinda like a waste. If skill points would be retroactive, I wouldn't mind. But they're not.
The Mithral Full Plate Armor is indeed what I'd go for. But, at level 6, we're still far away from that. In fact, I think we're quite poor for our level... Our DM is a bit stingy ^^u, and we always end up spending most of our money in healing potions, anyway u_u

And what about familiars? There is already a Wizard in the party, though I think he hasn't used it yet (probably he hasn't even created it). Many threads suggest taking Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar feats as a Duskblade, and I'm interested, but I don't know about their uses and tricks. Which one would be good for a CG or NG alignement, if I took it?
If skill points are important, then yes you would want to start with a higher INT score (you will need a 15 to get all your spells eventually) and use the increases on something else.
As for the Mithral Full Plate, the real reason I mentioned it was to keep you from thinking you need the Battle Caster feat from CA. While it can help you get heavier armor early on, once you can afford mithral full plate you will find the feat useless. If you don't think you will ever be able to get mithral full plate, the feat might be worth the investment. But usually this is not the case. Just go with the best armor you can find along the way until you can afford the really good stuff.
As for familiars, you can gain access to Obtain Familar through CA and Improved Familiar through both CW and PGtF. Note that the Improved Familiar choices in PGtF include some familiars not offered in the CW version. Are you trending toward a particular alignment? Or are all choices open at this stage?

bean illus

2018-04-24, 10:08 AM

So, somewhere in the middle of the potion discussion I posted a question about the value of action economy, and the difficulty of getting it within the sources available?

I don't know if the OP still needs help, but I think the questions relevant, and am politely interested in your opinions?

The bad news is I couldn't find complete champion in Spanish. The good news is I did find Tome of battle in Spanish. See if he'll let you use it.

Getting = pounce with your list of source books is difficult.

3: Dimension Hop spell. (Sorcerer/Wizard/Duskblade 2, Standard Action to teleport one target a short distance. You're losing an action, but they're gaining free movement. PHBII
5: Formation Expert feat (free move when an ally in a line drops. Hint: Have an ally Summon many weak creatures. Complete Warrior)
5: Mobile Spellcasting feat (free move when you cast a Standard Action spell if you make a Concentration check. Complete Adventurer p 111) STANDARD ACTION IS WHAT DB DO.

Immediate Magic (PH2 68): Give up your familiar; gain the ability to use a magical effect as an immediate action, ...
Conjuration: Short range teleport
First level wizard dip ACF of course

Particularly the mobile spell-casting feat seems like it could be used steadily from about 7th level on.

But also, what do you think about sacrificing a level of duskblade for 10 ft teleportation?

Dhoule

2018-04-24, 10:43 AM

The bad news is I couldn't find complete champion in Spanish. The good news is I did find Tome of battle in Spanish. See if he'll let you use it.
Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks! I appreciate it, really. That said, though... I don't want to pressure him too much. I mean... I think my DM is still not sold about me being a Duskblade, 'cause all of us started playing as a basic class from the PHBI, and I can understand how he wouldn't want to make the others feel as if I'm special or something.

Also, I don't want to use every "hole" in the rules to take advantage of it. I'm sure he won't like that. We're playing just for fun, and we wouldn't have started playing without him. I was asking for advice mostly to not make usual beginner mistakes with Ability Scores, feats, etc. Not for some super duper broken combos that might let me kill every boss in a second, but will only be fun for me, but not for my team, nor our DM.

5: Formation Expert feat (free move when an ally in a line drops. Hint: Have an ally Summon many weak creatures. Complete Warrior)
5: Mobile Spellcasting feat (free move when you cast a Standard Action spell if you make a Concentration check. Complete Adventurer p 111) STANDARD ACTION IS WHAT DB DO.

Immediate Magic (PH2 68): Give up your familiar; gain the ability to use a magical effect as an immediate action, ...
Conjuration: Short range teleport
First level wizard dip ACF of course

I'm sorry, but I fail to understand the uses of those feats =/. I'm also not sure about the familiars, 'cause with a good alignement, most of the best ones seem to be impossible to take. And many others are in books we don't have access to.

By the way, I've recently known our fighter wants to get a few cleric levels for her desired prestige class, so a better tank might be needed. Don't know if it'll be enough with a "half" fighter and a Duskblade in the frontline.

bean illus

2018-04-24, 12:08 PM

Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks! I appreciate it, really. That said, though... I don't want to pressure him too much. I mean... I think my DM is still not sold about me being a Duskblade, 'cause all of us started playing as a basic class from the PHBI, and I can understand how he wouldn't want to make the others feel as if I'm special or something.

Also, I don't want to use every "hole" in the rules to take advantage of it. I'm sure he won't like that. We're playing just for fun, and we wouldn't have started playing without him. I was asking for advice mostly to not make usual beginner mistakes with Ability Scores, feats, etc. Not for some super duper broken combos that might let me kill every boss in a second, but will only be fun for me, but not for my team, nor our DM.

I'm sorry, but I fail to understand the uses of those feats =/. I'm also not sure about the familiars, 'cause with a good alignement, most of the best ones seem to be impossible to take. And many others are in books we don't have access to.

By the way, I've recently known our fighter wants to get a few cleric levels for her desired prestige class, so a better tank might be needed. Don't know if it'll be enough with a "half" fighter and a Duskblade in the frontline.

Maybe go ahead and get ToB and just leave it laying around on the table. There's no need to start a debate about it, let things take their course.
And there's nothing and those books that can break your game any faster than the 3rd and 4th level spells that your primary casters are going to be gunning with next level.

Duskblade is a perfectly fine and fun class for the level you are playing at. I'm sure you will all enjoy it.

The purpose of the list of Feats was to explore ways to give your duskblade action economy. A duskblade that can cast a spell and full , or move and full attack is much more effective then a duskblade that can cast a spell and swing once.

Dhoule

2018-04-24, 01:31 PM

Maybe go ahead and get ToB and just leave it laying around on the table. There's no need to start a debate about it, let things take their course.
Hm... Nah, that would be weird, at least coming from me.

And there's nothing and those books that can break your game any faster than the 3rd and 4th level spells that your primary casters are going to be gunning with next level.
Yep, that's something I've read everywhere recently, "the Cleric and the Wizard are OP". They certainly doesn't seem to be at our level. But I'm sure it'll change at higher levels.

The purpose of the list of Feats was to explore ways to give your duskblade action economy. A duskblade that can cast a spell and full , or move and full attack is much more effective then a duskblade that can cast a spell and swing once.
About Mobile Spellcasting... So, first of all, if I want to use it, I need to get +20 with my Concentration skill and the d20 combined, or the spell will be lost. Seems quite risky, at least for my current level. But just in case, if I do get 20+... What's exactly the benefit? I can both move and cast the spell as an standard action. So... Would I be able to move again because, technically, the movement action hasn't taken place yet, so I'd be able to move two times? Or if I move only with the feat, I'd be able to perform a full attack? But... It doesn't say that anywhere, does it?
Or did I read wrong the Arcane Channeling class feature? I thought I could also move even if I used it. Of course, not from level 13 onwards if I wanted to perform a full attack, the same way you can't do that with "any other class" (I'm sure there will be exceptions).

So... Nothing wrong with only a Duskblade and a "half" Fighter as frontliners? Won't we be too squishy?

And what about the weapon? I've been thinking about a reach weapon. Maybe a Glaive. But with my low Dex I won't be able to perform more than one AoO per turn, even if I got the Combat Reflexes feat. Also... Our DM usually makes us fight in somewhat tight places, where a reach weapon might even put me at disadvantage. I'm not sure.

BowStreetRunner

2018-04-24, 02:17 PM

About Mobile Spellcasting... So, first of all, if I want to use it, I need to get +20 with my Concentration skill and the d20 combined, or the spell will be lost. Seems quite risky, at least for my current level. But just in case, if I do get 20+... What's exactly the benefit? I can both move and cast the spell as an standard action. So... Would I be able to move again because, technically, the movement action hasn't taken place yet, so I'd be able to move two times? Or if I move only with the feat, I'd be able to perform a full attack? But... It doesn't say that anywhere, does it?
Or did I read wrong the Arcane Channeling class feature? I thought I could also move even if I used it. Of course, not from level 13 onwards if I wanted to perform a full attack, the same way you can't do that with "any other class" (I'm sure there will be exceptions).
A Concentration Check of DC 20 + Spell Level isn't as hard as you think. Consider that you need 8 ranks of Concentration just to acquire the feat. A 14 CON would net you an additional +2. You can take 10 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#taking10) (accept a 10 as your result without actually rolling) on most skill checks as long as you are not in a threatened space and not otherwise distracted. So that would give you an easy 21 at 6th level already, and by 10th level you could take 10 and pass this check with even a 5th level spell. When you do need to roll, it's usually not going to be worse than a 55% success rate.

If you succeed, you can:

Use a standard action to cast a spell AND move at the same time. In addition, you can use your normal move action before or after this standard action, and you can use that normal move action to move or for anything else you can do with a move action (like drawing a weapon).
As a Duskblade with Arcane Channeling, you can use a standard action to cast a touch spell AND deliver it through your weapon with a melee attack. Since you are using a standard action to cast a spell then with the Mobile Spell-Casting feat you can also move as part of the same action. That's cast, attack, and move all in one. And you still have a move action free to use.

If you use a full attack however, it does not work with Mobile Spell-Casting since full attack is a full round action that supersedes both your standard action and move action for the round.

bean illus

2018-04-24, 06:37 PM

Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior) .... A must have for a duskblade.

Power Attack .... Find a way to use True Strike as a swift action and convert all of your BAB into damage (use a two-handed weapon for doubling).

Spell Penetration ... you're probably gonna need this.

Kelb_Panthera

2018-04-24, 06:58 PM

Can someone explain to me why arcane strike is a must-have on a class that spontaneously casts and whose whole shtick is channeling attack spells through his weapon?

Zombulian

2018-04-24, 07:21 PM

BowStreetRunner

2018-04-24, 07:39 PM

Can someone explain to me why arcane strike is a must-have on a class that spontaneously casts and whose whole shtick is channeling attack spells through his weapon?Because with a well-timed arcane strike the Duskblade can go nova on an opponent. Duskblades have a huge number of spells per day and they can sacrifice more than one to an arcane strike to create a huge pack of damage (although the attack bonus is capped to the highest level spell sacrificed). Check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?38084-Raise-a-glass-for-the-underpowered&p=2252831#post2252831) for a good example.

Eldariel

2018-04-25, 03:17 AM

Can someone explain to me why arcane strike is a must-have on a class that spontaneously casts and whose whole shtick is channeling attack spells through his weapon?

Well, it's a free +5 to all attacks and +5d4 on damage on a class that gets full attack channeling is full BAB and has lots of slots. The lack of action to activate Arcane Strike is a big boon and overall, it's a really convenient feat much like Knowledge Devotion. Sure, they're just number buffing but really good number buffing; at the point where you're attacking at base + 10 you can Power Attack with little regard for BAB losses and do more than enough for almost any fight. Leaves your mobility and utility actions available too; coupled with Channeling, large size and reach weapon, you can wreck even large masses of tough enemies at one go.

Zaq

2018-04-25, 08:51 AM

The Delay Potion + Quick Potion trick mentioned earlier would help with the PA component.

True Strike isn’t potionable. Personal spells can’t be made into potions.

DEMON

2018-04-25, 09:39 AM

Power Attack .... Find a way to use True Strike as a swift action and convert all of your BAB into damage (use a two-handed weapon for doubling).

Quick Cast is an ability available to Duskblades as soon as level 5.

Limited times per day, but when you need to nova, the option is there.

bean illus

2018-04-25, 11:16 AM

By 13th level you should have a way to reliably activate enlarge person , and make sure to have a reach weapon.

Increase the number of strikes you can make, with Two Handed Fighting (i think), for even more Targets on your Nova.

Zombulian

2018-04-25, 11:17 AM

True Strike isn’t potionable. Personal spells can’t be made into potions.

Oh really? I didn't see any rule on that.
Are you getting that from the "Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber" part?

Eldariel

2018-04-25, 11:45 AM

Oh really? I didn't see any rule on that.
Are you getting that from the "Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber" part?

It's in Brew Potion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#brewPotion):
"You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price.

When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.

Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion."

That's what mostly eliminates most personal spells from the equation; they tend to lack targets and in any case, you rarely want to be the target of one of those that does have one.

Zombulian

2018-04-25, 11:55 AM

It's in Brew Potion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#brewPotion):
"You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price.

When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.

Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion."

That's what mostly eliminates most personal spells from the equation; they tend to lack targets and in any case, you rarely want to be the target of one of those that does have one.

Hmmm but the potion rules on the SRD also say "The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect)." True Strike's target is "you", so if you're the effective caster of the spell it should work no?

Kelb_Panthera

2018-04-25, 02:55 PM

It's explicit.

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingRings

Zombulian

2018-04-25, 03:00 PM

It's explicit.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingRings

Ahh there it is.
Damn!

Dhoule

2018-04-27, 07:42 PM

Ok, so... summing up:

Lvl: 6
Race: Human
Alignement: CG/NG
Class: Duskblade

ABILITY SCORES
STR 17
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 8

FEATS
Must have: Power Attack (PHBI), Arcane Strike (CW)
Should consider:
- Spell Penetration (PHBI), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain (PHBI), Combat Expertise (PHBI), Improved Trip (PHBI), Toughness (PHBI)
- Steadfast Determination (PHBII)
- Mobile Spellcasting (CAd), Leap Attack (CAd)
- Obtain Familiar (CAr), Energy Substitution: Acid (CAr), Precocious Apprentice: Heroics/Burning Sword (CAr)
- Spellcasting Prodigy (PGtF, must be level 1), Luck of Heroes (PGtF, must be level 1), Mercantile Background (PGtF, must be level 1, don't know if my DM will allow it)
- Arcane Disciple? (I really like this one, though with low Wisdom it'd be pointless) (CD)
- Improved Toughness (CW), Close Quarters Fighting (CW), Improved Familiar (CW)
I'd like to but can't have: Knowledge Devotion (CC)

Which 4 would you choose for level 6?

SKILLS
Concentration
Jump? (Leap Attack?)
Knowledge (?) (no Knowledge Devotion, remember)
Listen?
Sense Motive? (it's a class skill, and I like it for role playing)
Spellcraft?
Spot?
Tumble?

EQUIPMENT
Armor: Breastplate (+1, if I can afford it, as Mithral Full Plate Armor won't be possible for now)
Shield: Buckler? Light Shield? Heavy Shield? None?
Weapon: Greatsword? Longsword? Glaive? Guisarme? Spiked chain?
Items: ?

Anything else?

BowStreetRunner

2018-04-27, 09:29 PM

...Shield: Buckler? Light Shield? Heavy Shield? None?
Weapon: Greatsword? Longsword? Glaive? Guisarme? Spiked chain?...
You'll need a free hand for casting spells with a somatic component. That means wielding a weapon in one hand and shield in another is generally not going to be a good option. However, if you have a two-handed weapon you can let go with one hand to cast and then return the hand to the weapon as a free action. So unless you can get yourself one of those shields that will magically hover next to you on their own without being held (I can't remember the name but with limited source books they might not be an option), I'd recommend a two-handed weapon. You'll do more damage and can even look into things like Reach.

Spiked chain is a great two-handed reach weapon in 3.5 because it can also be used against adjacent foes, but it costs an exotic weapon feat.
Glaive is a great two-handed reach weapon that doesn't require an extra feat, but leaves you without a way to attack adjacent foes. Pick up something like armor spikes to handle those up-close situations.
Greatsword is a good two handed weapon that lacks reach, but deals plenty of damage.
Quarterstaff is another option that can give you more attacks instead of more damage per attack - if you go this route you would generally replace Power Attack with Two Weapon Fighting and up your Dexterity.

Zombulian

2018-04-27, 09:45 PM

Eldariel

2018-04-28, 05:53 AM

You'll need a free hand for casting spells with a somatic component. That means wielding a weapon in one hand and shield in another is generally not going to be a good option. However, if you have a two-handed weapon you can let go with one hand to cast and then return the hand to the weapon as a free action. So unless you can get yourself one of those shields that will magically hover next to you on their own without being held (I can't remember the name but with limited source books they might not be an option), I'd recommend a two-handed weapon. You'll do more damage and can even look into things like Reach.

Spiked chain is a great two-handed reach weapon in 3.5 because it can also be used against adjacent foes, but it costs an exotic weapon feat.
Glaive is a great two-handed reach weapon that doesn't require an extra feat, but leaves you without a way to attack adjacent foes. Pick up something like armor spikes to handle those up-close situations.
Greatsword is a good two handed weapon that lacks reach, but deals plenty of damage.
Quarterstaff is another option that can give you more attacks instead of more damage per attack - if you go this route you would generally replace Power Attack with Two Weapon Fighting and up your Dexterity.

Guisarme is my go-to for a two-handed weapon. Reach, tripable, reliable 5 damage (2d4 is better than 1d8) and some other minor benefits. You can just 5' step to attack adjacent in a number of cases, or drop it and draw a backup weapon which you can combine with a move action thanks to having over +1 BAB, and thanks to Arcane Channeling, you don't even lose much in terms of contributions there.

For non-reach weapons, Falchion is up there with Greatsword. Against crit vulnerable enemies if you have decent flat damage bonuses (like Arcane Strike, Power Attack and Knowledge Devotion), it'll average much more damage than Greatsword. Of course, the crit is useless against enemies like Undead, Elementals, Constructs, Plants, Oozes and some specific creatures (and anyone warded against crits like higher level casters or anyone with Fortifications armor) without jumping through humps that are generally not worth jumping through, so its utility is very campaign dependent. A campaign heavy on arcane casters (and thus Constructs, Undead and Elementals) or divine casters (and thus Undead), or Fey/Plants, or Undead, would be rather unfavourable for the Falchion but otherwise it's a solid pick.

And yeah, for shields your options are Buckler (with Improved Buckler Defense) but you lack the feats and the spells to make it decent, or Animated Shield which is kind of a no-brainer down the line. You could also use the arcane spell "Shield", potentially Quickened eventually, which is probably your best option for the moment, except that you'd need to access it somehow. Once you get Animated Shield and have a party member able to cast Magic Vestment +3 (so caster level 12), it might be a reasonable investment.

Dhoule

2018-04-28, 06:52 AM

Yeah, many of our enemies until now have been undead and immune to crits. And we can see the shadows of the Red wizards behind everything that's happening. So not sure about relaying in crits.

Dhoule

2018-04-30, 02:23 PM

So... Once more, nothing else about which 4 feats should I pick?

BowStreetRunner

2018-05-01, 08:34 AM

So... Once more, nothing else about which 4 feats should I pick?
Without high DEX you aren't going to be able to build an effective AoO tripper, so spiked chain and improved trip are probably out. (If you had high DEX then you would take Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spike Chain to set up an area of control around you where opponents would have a hard time moving.)

Spell Penetration (and Greater Spell Penetration) are heavily dependent on what your DM throws at you. If you run into creatures with high spell resistance, often you are going to wish you had both of these (for a total of +4). The rest of the time it's not going to matter much. An alternative is to avoid using spells directly on such opponents. Arcane Strike allows you to turn spells that would be useless against such opponents into a bonus on attack and damage against them. Or just look for spells on your list that have an entry of 'Spell Resistance: No'. I'd only take these if my DM used lots of these creatures and then I'd take both.

Taking a familiar is something I'd avoid until you've had a bit more experience with the game. I've found it tends to be a liability for many inexperienced players and often an overlooked and underutilized asset for most others. While there are players who know how to use familiars to devastating effect, I'm not one of them myself and won't go recommending it to you.

Of all the feats you are considering, I'd choose these: Arcane Strike is awesome on a Duskblade to begin with. Power Attack is good by itself and with Arcane Strike even better. Mobile Spell-casting is good and with your Arcane Channeling ability even better. Leap Attack on top of Power Attack, Arcane Strike, and Mobile Spell-casting can make for a truly lethal combination.

EDIT:

This is how your Duskblade can turn Leap Attack into leaping death. This assumes a build with Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Mobile Spellcasting, Leap Attack, 8 ranks in Jump, and 9 ranks in Concentration. You have STR 17 which gives +3 to attack and damage. You also have CON 14 which gives +2 to concentration checks. At level 6 you can cast 2nd level spells.

This is all going to occur on the surprise round, when you are restricted from taking a full round action but can still make a charge attack.

As you enter combat you are going to 'quick cast' the spell Jump to gain a +20 enhancement bonus on Jump checks for 6 minutes - long enough to last the entire combat.

With Mobile Spellcasting you make a DC 21 check to cast Shocking Grasp (5d6 electricity damage and +3 to attack if the opponent is wearing metal armor) AND move up to 30 ft AND arcane channel the shocking grasp at the same time. You need to roll a 10, so as long as you aren't in a threatened space you should be able to just 'take 10' and succeed automatically.

You are going to sacrifice a spell to Arcane Strike (1st level for +1 attack and +1d4 damage, or 2nd level for +2 attack and +2d4 damage). With Power Attack you can also subtract some of your attack bonus to raise your damage bonus by double that amount. If you are targeting an opponent in metal armor (+3 from Shocking Grasp) and sacrificing a 2nd level spell (+2) to Arcane Strike you will have a total +14 attack bonus with your STR and BAB, so even the max of -6 attack and +6 damage would still leave you with a +8 attack bonus. Pump up your damage by whatever amount feels comfortable to you right now depending on what you think you will need to overcome the opponent's AC.

With the Leap Attack feat you are going to combine a jump with a charge against your opponent. You currently have a Jump of +32 (9 ranks, 3 STR, +20 spell) so can standing long jump up to 15 feet without even factoring in your roll! Taking 10 that's a 20 foot standing long jump. You only need to cover at least 10 feat, so that's not a problem. Plus you ignore rough terrain in the squares you jump over. This doubles your normal bonus power attack damage and you are going to use a two handed sword so you will triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

So let's just say you are attacking an opponent in metal armor, take a -4 from power attack and sacrifice a 2nd level spell. Altogether you now have an attack bonus of +10 (+6 BAB, +3 STR, +2 Arcane Strike, +3 Shocking Grasp vs Metal Armor, -4 Power Attack), with a damage bonus of +27 (+3 STR, [+8 Power Attack x 3]= +24), +2d4, +5d6 electricity. That's 34-53 damage!

Dhoule

2018-05-01, 11:42 AM

bean illus

2018-05-01, 01:36 PM

DEMON

2018-05-01, 01:42 PM

Thanks! I'll pick those :)

Btw, I asked him about his opinion on having a two-handed weapon and use Arcane channeling and, even though it's not his definitive answer, he doesn't agree with me about using one of your hands as a free action to cast the spell on the weapon.

Do you know if this is stated in any book? Which one?

Although the rules don't mention it, letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action for you. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a)

As a side note, Mobile Spellcasting allows you to cast a spell and move as a standard action. Arcane Chanelling allows you to use a standard action to cast a spell and deliver it through a weapon with a melee attack. Those are both different things and both require a standard action to activate. I do not believe these can be used together as advertised by BowStreetRunner.

If he maintains tgis position, Still Spell removes somatic components?

Somatic Weaponry might be a better option, as it does not cost a higher spell slot.

Perpetual Blur

2018-05-01, 01:45 PM

Thanks! I'll pick those :)

Do you know if this is stated in any book? Which one?

This isn't spelled out in core, but similarly difficult actions (like dropping an item) are specified to be free actions. Bows are also two-handed weapons, and you can release a hand to draw arrows with no action cost.

The Rules of the Game series of posts by Wizards did clarify this point:

Although the rules don't mention it, letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action for you.

Though most tables were already running it that way implicitly.

Dhoule

2018-05-01, 02:03 PM

Yeah... Still, what that website says is that letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action, BUT I'm not sure if that includes doing something with that hand. I'd like to think it does, as that's what I want, and need. But my DM might have a different opinion.

Complete Mage wasn't published in Spain, so he might not accept Somatic Weaponry as an option (and not even the information from that website). Still spell would be a bad choice, I think. And, at that point, a one handed Long sword might be the best choice.

DEMON

2018-05-01, 03:11 PM

Yeah... Still, what that website says is that letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action, BUT I'm not sure if that includes doing something with that hand. I'd like to think it does, as that's what I want, and need. But my DM might have a different opinion.

If you're referring to casting a spell, it doesn't. But that particular something is covered via arcane channeling.

So if your DM accepts this article and rules hand off - hand on as a free action, you should be good.

Dhoule

2018-06-02, 09:15 PM

Dhoule

2018-06-03, 07:46 PM

Hm... No one?

Dhoule

2018-06-05, 10:43 AM

Ouch.

Well, I'll try with another question.

I know increasing my INT with equipment won't give me more skill points per level. However, do they allow me to use spells I wouldn't be able to cast with my "natural" INT? That is... If I have 14 INT and an equipment that gives me +2 INT, would that let me cast level 5 spells or not?

Andor13

2018-06-05, 12:33 PM

Yes, I'm pretty sure it would. Also, while in Pathfinder +Int items don't give you skillpoints they do come with built in skills. So if you slap on a headband of +4 int, you'll get two skills at maximum ranks. These skills are pre-built into the item however, so it can be useless if they overlap with your character. (which will only happen if you GM is a jerk.) Here are the rules. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/headband-of-vast-intelligence)

Dhoule

2018-06-05, 01:34 PM

ExLibrisMortis

2018-06-05, 02:49 PM

Thanks!

One more question... In the spell list, there are some "touch" spells that aren't exactly "attacks", such as Resist energy, or Dimension Hop. Am I able to channel those spells even if I am the target, or one of them? How would I do that, should I attack myself? ^^u
You can channel them, sure, and you can target enemies with beneficial effects, and probably even attack yourself and allies. Rules on attacking general refer to an "opponent", but the rules aren't too clear on who gets to decide who or what is an opponent--I'd rule that each party in a rules-based transaction gets to decide whether they are ally or opponent to each party in that transaction, and unless a pair agrees they're allies, they are enemies (in other words, "ally" status must be mutual). Which--in the case of attacking yourself--means you can simply declare yourself an opponent for the purpose of attacking. I'd suggest dealing nonlethal damage when attacking allies.

Although giving your enemies positional advantage through dimension hop is probably bad, some utility spells, such as plane shift, can be brutally effective when channeled (plane shift allows a Will save for a reason). Plus there's always dimension hop + greater anticipate teleportation, which lets you whisk enemies away for three rounds (assuming they decide to use the spell, which they presumably don't have to).

BowStreetRunner

2018-06-05, 02:59 PM

Dhoule

2018-06-05, 03:02 PM

So wouldn't I be able to channel those spells and just "touch" me or my allies with my weapon, without attacking? Though the PHB2 explanation specifies I must attack. Firstly, the damage is resolved, and after that comes the spell. But still...

Dhoule

2018-06-05, 03:05 PM

Not sure why you would do this? Every spell you are able to cast can also just be cast like a normal spell. So just cast it.

Yeah, but the idea would be to cast the spell (without using the "swift action" ability) and also attack. As an example... Let's say I'm level 13 and I channel Dimension hop on my weapon. First, I *touch* myself, and teleport to a good position, where I can attack two enemies. There, I attack the two of them, and teleport them away from me.

Would that be possible?

Zombulian

2018-06-05, 03:53 PM

Yeah, but the idea would be to cast the spell (without using the "swift action" ability) and also attack. As an example... Let's say I'm level 13 and I channel Dimension hop on my weapon. First, I *touch* myself, and teleport to a good position, where I can attack two enemies. There, I attack the two of them, and teleport them away from me.

Would that be possible?

Without using Quick Cast? Probably not. If you Quick Cast Dimension Hop (which you wouldn't need to channel through your weapon anyway, just cast it on yourself) and then used your Standard Action to Channel another casting of Dimension Hop into an attack I think it could work. I'm not sure how you'd do it to two enemies though, unless you have some way to Full Attack Channel that I missed somewhere.

Edit: Missed the level 13 part. Definitely seems like a check with your DM thing.

ExLibrisMortis

2018-06-05, 04:08 PM

Let's say I'm level 13 and I channel Dimension hop on my weapon. First, I *touch* myself, and teleport to a good position, where I can attack two enemies. There, I attack the two of them, and teleport them away from me.

Would that be possible?
If your DM allows you to attack yourself, that will work, but you must attack yourself, not just touch (although it could be a melee touch attack that deals no damage--ask your DM).

Eldariel

2018-06-05, 04:20 PM

Hey there once more!

After one month off, we're close to resume our campaign (our DM was busy with his studies). So I was trying to prepare everything for my new character, and now (yeah, now... ^^u) I've found that I can't use every spell of the Duskblade's list (!!!), but only the ones I've actually learned. And here I am again, looking for advice towards which spells should I pick. Some of them seem clear, but the other ones... Remember that there is a Chaotic Good Cleric and a Conjurer? (I think...?) Wizard in the party, so... It might be better to choose some spells they don't have an easy access to? I don't know, this is new to me.

Level 0: with +2 INT mod I can learn 4, and there seems to be only 4, so no problem here.
Level 1 (2 at level 1 + 3 from levels 2-4): Shocking grasp, True strike, Ray of enfeeblement, Chill touch? Swift expeditious retreat?, Obscuring mist? Resist energy?
Level 2 (4 from level 5-8): Dimension hop, Touch of idiocy, Ghoul touch?, Scorching ray?, Swift invisivility?, Some of the enhancement spells (Bull, Cat...)?
Level 3 (4 from level 9-12): Vampiric touch, Dispelling touch?, Doom scarabs?, Ray of exhaustion?, Greater magic weapon?, Any enhancement crown?

From here onwards I'm at a complete loss.

Level 4 (4 from level 13-16): Dimension door? Shout? Toxic weapon? Interposing hand? Dispel magic? Enervation?
Level 5 (4 from level 17-20): Slashing dispel? Chain lightning? Clenched fist? Disintegrate? Waves of fatigue?

Any help? Thanks!

Let's see now. Yeah, Cleric and Wizard can cover some stuff but you don't want to skip on overall utility with the idea that they can do it for you. You have a broad spells known list and a lot of spells per day so make use of those. Thus, things I'd consider absolute musts:
1. Blade of Blood: The HP cost is no big deal for you so it's basically just +3d6 damage with a swift action. Not too bad at all. Resist Energy; it lasts long enough to go all day and getting Resist Energy 30 for all 5 types is pretty nice and it can be cast on allies. Yes, bigger casters can cast it too but they can't spare 5 slots for every party member, let alone recasting it after the duration expires.
2. Swift Invisibility. This is the only form of invisibility you get access to innately. It's worth having, even if it lasts for only a round. You can combine it with Extend Spell and recasting (the fluff states the verbal component is a whisper so it shouldn't be too easily audible if going by it) for longer duration Invisibility as necessary. Swift Fly seems like a must as well, just so you have at least some way to fly under your own power no matter how restricted or poor (unless you use feats to get something like Phantom Steed/Shadow Conjuration). See Invisibility is likewise a must-have simply because the ability is too valuable not to have and you can't be relying on others for basic competence. It's no True Seeing but it's 100 times better than being foiled by Blink, unable to see Ethereal, cold to Invisibility, etc.
3. Ray of Exhaustion. Another angle of attack, you could use the debuffs and against single opponents it has a brutal effect even on a successful save. Greater Magic Weapon is incredibly good but it's a spell your casters can realistically cast for you even for multiple weapons (arrows/bow are nice to have as well for instance). Keen Edge is probably a buff you have a harder time accessing from others so it might be one to pick up. Not a massive boost but nice to have, particularly if you fight with a Falchion or such.
4. Dimension Door: more range than Dimension Hop, very convenient as a non-combat tool. Enervation: another axis of attack, you can just drain living enemies to 0 HD. One of the best debuffs in the game too.
5. Disintegrate: Build your own dungeons, make holes anywhere, make enemies fall, obliterate undead, etc. This spell is superuseful to have and one of the few terraforming tools Duskblades get. Yeah, real casters get it first, blablabla, it's a very good option to have anyways.

A couple of things you want to make sure you have:
- Some way to dispel. Probably just Dispel Magic. You don't get Greater, which blows, but c'est la vie. Being able to interact with magic >>>> not being able to interact with magic and even basic Dispel can still disable magic items on high levels for instance; it's not useless to have an extra character capable of dispelling.
- A spell to target Will-save, Fort-save and Ref-save. Disintegrate covers Fort-save (earlier on Ghoul Touch is fine), albeit poorly, and you could pick up Hold Monster to hit Will-save (failing once is enough for you to deliver Coup de Grace) with Color Spray as the stand-in for low levels. Sadly there's no good spell to hit Ref-saves on your list; Burning Hands or similar doesn't exactly cut it.
- Ways to affect enemies resistant to everything. You're fine in this regard with plenty of no-save touch spells like Enervation and Ray of Exhaustion, and no save effects like Waves of Fatigue. Well, as fine as a Duskblade can be anyways.
- Pick up one Bigby's spell. They're all pretty good and the higher level the more versatile. Definitely worth having, they open up your combat options a lot. Bigby's Clenched Fist is very versatile and a usable level 8 spell for Wizards so as a Duskblade, it's not a bad pick-up. It also makes you able to finally have a minion of sorts, if in a very limited manner.
- One of the immediate action defenses is nice to have for when they come up. Deflect is not bad though Crown of Protection is also okay if you keep your headslot empty.
- One blast spell is probably okay. Different elemental coverage is nice though you could always just pick up Energy Substitution as well. Either way, at least Chain Lightning is probably worth knowing. Soni

As for stat buffs, they're good on lower levels but quickly grow obsolete as you want them all day from items. It's not bad to pick up Bull's Strength or Crown of Might at first though, and Fox's Cunning may have some utility as well.

Ultimately I'd be looking at something like:
1. Shocking Grasp, True Strike, Ray of Enfeeblement, Blade of Blood, Resist Energy
2. Swift Invisibility, Swift Fly, See Invisibility, [Touch of Idiocy] (or Deflect if you can use Deflection-bonuses without overlapping)
3. Vampiric Touch, Ray of Exhaustion, Keen Edge, [Doom Scarabs] (could also be Dispelling Touch, Crown of Might or Greater Magic Weapon; this slot isn't awfully important)
4. Dimension Door, Dispel Magic, Enervation, [Channeled Pyroburst] (see above)
5. Disintegrate, Bigby's, Hold Monster, [Chain Lightning] (or Waves of Fatigue)

Dhoule

2018-06-05, 06:02 PM

Ultimately I'd be looking at something like:
1. Shocking Grasp, True Strike, Ray of Enfeeblement, Blade of Blood, Resist Energy
2. Swift Invisibility, Swift Fly, See Invisibility, [Touch of Idiocy] (or Deflect if you can use Deflection-bonuses without overlapping)
3. Vampiric Touch, Ray of Exhaustion, Keen Edge, [Doom Scarabs] (could also be Dispelling Touch, Crown of Might or Greater Magic Weapon; this slot isn't awfully important)
4. Dimension Door, Dispel Magic, Enervation, [Channeled Pyroburst] (see above)
5. Disintegrate, Bigby's, Hold Monster, [Chain Lightning] (or Waves of Fatigue)

Wow, thanks! I've read about which spells are the most useful, though I wanted more personal advice, taking into account our Wizard and Cleric. Some things surprised me:
- Blade of blood seems to be one of the most hated ones, at least from what I've read here and there. However, the fact that you cast it as a swift action indeed helps.
- No Dimension hop? I've seen it recommended as a must everywhere, I'd say.
- No Chill touch? Would be nice against undead, wouldn't it? And we've encountered many of them, I think.
- I think I can see the usefulness of Swift fly, Swift invisibility, or See invisibility. But picking them over Touch of idiocy or Ghoul touch? Really? I wouldn't had bet for that.

Btw, I'm not forced to pick the highest level spells available, am I? That is... Can I get from level 14 to 15 and learn a level 1 spell, instead of a level 4 one?

Also, I could try asking for Precocious apprentice feat... Would Wraithstrike be the best choice if he accepts?

Eldariel

2018-06-06, 12:42 AM

Wow, thanks! I've read about which spells are the most useful, though I wanted more personal advice, taking into account our Wizard and Cleric. Some things surprised me:
- Blade of blood seems to be one of the most hated ones, at least from what I've read here and there. However, the fact that you cast it as a swift action indeed helps.
- No Dimension hop? I've seen it recommended as a must everywhere, I'd say.
- No Chill touch? Would be nice against undead, wouldn't it? And we've encountered many of them, I think.
- I think I can see the usefulness of Swift fly, Swift invisibility, or See invisibility. But picking them over Touch of idiocy or Ghoul touch? Really? I wouldn't had bet for that.

Btw, I'm not forced to pick the highest level spells available, am I? That is... Can I get from level 14 to 15 and learn a level 1 spell, instead of a level 4 one?

- Blade of Blood is nice because it's innately a swift action. You get a lot of temporary HP from Vampiric Touch and potentially Doom Scarabs anyways so you should have little trouble doubledipping with Blade and Arcane Channeling. Of course, you should keep in mind how loaded your swift actions are.
- Yes, Dimension Hop is great and I'd keep it until I get Dimension Door but once you hit that point you might not need it as much anymore. Note that it's a better spell to Quicken than Dimension Door though so it's worth considering. If you have another source of Flight, you could drop e.g. Swift Fly for it. Swift Fly is more of a lower level spell.
- Chill Touch is a Will-save, which is a good save for Undead (who tend to have a lot of HD for their CR) so while useful, it's not that amazing. At this point you have Disintegrate, which is the anti-undead spell. Keeping Chill Touch on lower levels is fine though.
- Well, I figure you have enough channeling spells so I focused level 2 spell on utility. Touch of Idiocy is great on lower levels but higher up you probably just want to obliterate whomever you strike and focus on damage/hard CC. It has the "Mind-affecting"-tag, which makes it less amazing on level 20 than level 3. Ghoul Touch is great and potentially a keeper but paralysis is only so reliable a condition. If your save DCs are very high you might consider keeping it but remember that even with 36 Int, a level 2 spell only has a save DC of 25 on level 20 while full casters are slogging around DC32s, and Fort is the best-progressing save. I'd keep Ghoul Touch on lower levels but higher up it loses some of its luster.
- No, you're not forced to pick the highest level spell but you'll permanently lose out on one higher level spell known if you don't. Thus I would pick them since higher level spe

This would be a level 20 loadout. You can trade a spell every odd-numbered level as per:
"Upon reaching 5th level, and at every subsequent odd-numbered level, you can choose to learn a new spell in place of one you already know. In effect, you lose access to the old spell in exchange for gaining the new one. The new spell?s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level spell you can cast. For instance, upon reaching 9th level, you could trade in a single 1st-level spell (two levels below the highest-level spell you can cast, which is 3rd) for a different 1st-level spell. You can swap only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that you gain new spells known for the level."

Also, I could try asking for Precocious apprentice feat... Would Wraithstrike be the best choice if he accepts?

Wraithstrike is amazing, though you probably won't have trouble hitting if you go Arcane Strike + Knowledge Devotion. But then again, you can always Power Attack for full so it's probably still worth it. Heroics is another nice spell, to pick up Martial Study or other such utility. Hm, plenty of other options exist, of course. Arcane Disciple is a great way to add to your spells known if you have some Wis or Wis-boosting items, as are the various Bloodline feats (you're a spontaneous caster so you qualify).

Dhoule

2018-06-06, 10:48 AM

- No, you're not forced to pick the highest level spell but you'll permanently lose out on one higher level spell known if you don't. Thus I would pick them since higher level spe

Higher level spe...? Higher level spe WHAT? I need to know! xD

Eldariel

2018-06-06, 11:30 AM

Higher level spe...? Higher level spe WHAT? I need to know! xD

Lol, woops. "Higher level spells known are generally both, less available and more powerful so the tradeoff is rarely worth it."

Dhoule

2018-06-07, 09:19 AM

So... If the planets align and I'm magically able to dip some levels in Abjurant Champion (a PrC I'm supposedly not able to take, as Complete Mage isn't published in Spain), would Extra spell: Shield be a good choice? An extra 9 shield AC as a swift action seems really nice, though I don't know how common are the situations where you are not able to use your magic, and this would be useless (as well as all my other spells, anyway).

Dhoule

2018-06-11, 10:25 AM

Well, nevermind. I won't be able to pick spells from any other place, neither will I be able to get into Abjurant Champion.

One thing I'm surprised to see in many threads related to the Duskblade is how many people recommend to pick Arcane Strike at level 6. However, you shouldn't be able to pick it, right? I mean... It says you need to be able to cast level 3 arcane spells, and you won't be able to do that as a Duskblade until level 9.

Dimension Door seems nice on paper but, unless I'm mistaken, you can't use it on your enemies, so it loses some combat possibilities if you compare it to Dimension Hop. Is it still good enough to replace it?

I'm actually thinking about picking Extend Spell, but I've one question. If I can double the duration of any spell (not instantaneous, permanent or concentration-dependants), I understand that every spell that lasts one round, lasts two instead. That's easy, and nice. But what about spells that also have "one attack" duration? Can I ""extend spell" with True Strike, and use it for my next two attacks, instead of only one? Or would only the duration in rounds be affected? And what about Energy Surge? Does it last one round, as it states firstly, or one attack, as it says later? If it's only one attack, would I have two instead? There are some spells which explicitly says the spell will be discharged after you use it once (for protection, to attack...). But this doesn't seem to be the case with these ones.

So... What do you think?

Dhoule

2018-06-14, 08:28 AM

Eldariel

2018-06-14, 03:52 PM

Guys... I think we have a situation here. I was finishing the character's sheet on my own, and my DM told me that, as a houserule, he doesn't allow more than one ability score to be at 8 points before the race adjustment. I told him that's unfair for the human race, with which people can't juggle with its ability scores, but he won't change his mind.

So, as a human, I'd need to choose between:

STR 15/17
DEX 10
CON 12/14
INT 12/14
WIS 10
CHA 8

Any option seems disappointing. Suddenly, a Dwarf Duskblade becomes much more attractive. It'd go as:

STR 17
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 6

Along with any other advantage of that race. What I'd miss the most would be the extra feat. Extra skill points are nice, but no big deal. I'm not sure, though. I've spent two months thinking about my new character as a human, and it's hard for me to change that view.

What do you guys think? Would that human duskblade still be viable? Which ability score would you change to increase Wisdom?

Well. You can get to hit boosters from feats (Arcane Strike & al.) so in that sense, you don't need as much strength. To that end, Human with lowered Str (or Con) could work. Definitely casting stat of at least 14 though, particularly if you ever want to use all those tasty spells that offer saves. To be honest, stat limitations are just really rough on gishes in general; simple Druids or Polymorph Wizards are not affected and Clerics have enough raw power to power through but honest-to-god gishes really suffer.

But yeah, just go with the rounded stats and use your feats and spells to make up for it. You have spells so it's not like you suffer that much of having the damage.

Dhoule

2018-06-14, 05:05 PM

So you'd still choose the human race before the dwarf? I've been checking every available feat the last weeks, and I haven't found many of them attractive enough to justify a human over any other race at all costs, just because of the extra feat (and some skill points, yeah).

I thought about picking Leap attack. But then I saw I wouldn't be able to use Arcane channeling with it, as it'd require a charge action, and that's considered a full round action (no place for standard actions there).

I thought about picking Improved bullrush, and then Shocktrooper. But, again, with the charge attack, no Arcane channeling, so I thought it wasn't worth it.

I thought about picking Combat expertise, and then Improved trip. But, if you succeed with your trip attempt, it grants you an "attack" action, not a casting one. So no Arcane channeling there, either.

I thought about picking Obtain familiar, and then Improved familiar. But, after asking my DM about his opinion, he thinks it'd be a bad idea. Maybe with another DM it wouldn't be that way. But, if it'll be with him, I better choose something else.

I can't pick Knowledge devotion. I can't pick Versatile spellcaster. I can't pick Battlecaster offense. I can't pick Arcane disciple.

Battle caster doesn't seem worth it, when I'm getting close to a Mithral full plate armor. Neither Precocious spellcaster or Extra spell would let me pick spells outside the Duskblade's list (I've asked).

Most metamagic feats wouldn't be worth it, as they'd require a full round action.

Honestly, excluding Power attack and Arcane strike, I can't find many options out there actually worth that extra feat slot ^^u